User avatar
bgm
Topic Author
Posts: 1358
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:17 am

French President Emmanuel Macron has told Donald Trump he is "concerned" the US leader could unilaterally recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

Any decision on the contested city's status must be "within the framework of negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians", Mr Macron said.

Earlier, similar warnings came from a number of Arab and Muslim nations.

Reports say the US president will recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital this week.

Both Israelis and Palestinians claim the city as their capital.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42232158



What tangible benefits would there be from doing this? Utter stupidity. This could turn very, very nasty.
"When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat." -George Carlin
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:04 am

Would indeed be utter stupidity.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:20 am

bgm wrote:
What tangible benefits would there be from doing this? Utter stupidity. This could turn very, very nasty.


War is usually good for the approval rating of the sitting president and he is yet to find someone willing to play. Such a move may finally find him a playmate, and bombing Muslims of the temple mount may meet least resistance in the US population.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
Flighty
Posts: 8897
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:50 am

Worrying. Jerusalem is also the capital of Palestine, the Palestinian country. But, maybe they can share it in peace. If Palestine is allowed to claim Jerusalem as its capital than I am not sure why Israel cannot make a similar claim, or why it would be uniquely outrageous. Let them both have their capital in their part of the city. If Israel really wants to welcome Palestinian citizens to freely walk around its government properties and live adjacent to them, then I have no problem with that. If the real problem is apartheid, then maybe we should be criticizing Israel for its practice of apartheid, rather than the location of its government building.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:54 pm

Flighty wrote:
or why it would be uniquely outrageous. Let them both have their capital in their part of the city.


they need to be allowed a state first, independent, full sovereignty and such, before that happening moving an Embassy to Jerusalem is pretty much a declaration of war.

Imagine EU countries would move their Embassies to the Republic of Ireland to Belfast. Some noses in the UK would be seriously out of joint ...

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 5929
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:41 pm

I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel. Let's further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US.

The question being asked in the West Wing is not whether this will destabilize the region, but more like "was Obama in favor of a two state solution? Yes? Then we're against it and are for a single Jewish state".

If the move is made, I won't be surprised or upset if a harsher oil embargo happens (worse than the one in the 70s), to the point where fracking won't be enough to lower prices.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 5009
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:11 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel.


Two words. Elections and Florida. This may change if retirees fed up with constant hurricanes and pick some other state to retire.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:31 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel. .


don´t you know, when the Al-Aqsa-Moschee is finally been taken care off and the temple has been rebuild, Jesus is coming back....

I guess all it needs for, finally, everybody to die is a) a probably rather global war and b) probably someone needs to find the Ark of the Covenant before that....

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 22018
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:23 pm

In 1995 (during Clinton administration) Congress passed law that required the relocation of US Embassy to Israel's capital of Jerusalem by 1999

The implementation of this law was delayed as presidents were able to issue short ongoing 6-month waivers.

What is being reported is that Trump will no longer issue a waiver and will comply with the law that requires the government to initiate and fund the relocation of the Embassy finally.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
WIederling
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel. .


don´t you know, when the Al-Aqsa-Moschee is finally been taken care off and the temple has been rebuild, Jesus is coming back....

I guess all it needs for, finally, everybody to die is a) a probably rather global war and b) probably someone needs to find the Ark of the Covenant before that....


Too late will they notice that there is no meaningful "Armageddon and sitting with God"
but that the Buddhists were right all along: Ethernal wheel of Karma and now find your new place as a rat.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 5929
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:36 pm

LAXintl wrote:
What is being reported is that Trump will no longer issue a waiver and will comply with the law that requires the government to initiate and fund the relocation of the Embassy finally.

Because, as we all know, having an embassy in Jerusalem and recognizing it as Israel's capital is what made America Great in the past and will make it Great Again.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 3664
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 pm

If Jerusalem is Israels's official legal capital, all friendly nations should accept this and base their Embassies there. Its quite embarrassing for them to be sitting in Tel Aviv.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:03 pm

mercure1 wrote:
If Jerusalem is Israels's official legal capital,


Only that it isn't so, it is only so under Israeli law. And when it comes to where a capital is, the host nations opinion doesn't matter all so much. Seoul wouldn't become the capital of North Korea, no matter how many laws they passed saying otherwise.
Embassies used to be in Jerusalem, until Israel decided to illegally annex east Jerusalem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_ ... lution_478

Moving an Embassy to Jerusalem is simply a violation of international law.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:24 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel.



Jerusalem represents the Holy Land to Christians, so of course that means the Republicans base thinks they have a God given right to interfere.


Then it's a well know fact that Sheldon Adleson, will bankroll your candidacies if you will help Israel.
it really not that hard to connect the dots when candidates needs money to stay in power. Sorry to sound so jaded, but sometimes the truth sucks.
 
User avatar
bgm
Topic Author
Posts: 1358
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:14 pm

LAXintl wrote:
In 1995 (during Clinton administration) Congress passed law that required the relocation of US Embassy to Israel's capital of Jerusalem by 1999

The implementation of this law was delayed as presidents were able to issue short ongoing 6-month waivers.

What is being reported is that Trump will no longer issue a waiver and will comply with the law that requires the government to initiate and fund the relocation of the Embassy finally.


Pray tell, why do you think each successive President has signed these 6 month waivers? Just for fun? Or perhaps, because they were advised of the consequences if they didn't? It's going to destabilize the region terribly if this happens.
"When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat." -George Carlin
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4589
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 pm

mercure1 wrote:
If Jerusalem is Israels's official legal capital, all friendly nations should accept this and base their Embassies there. Its quite embarrassing for them to be sitting in Tel Aviv.


That would require legitimising the illegal land grab that Israel performed (multiple times) to take ownership of Jerusalem - we don't recognise that for any other country, including Crimea (topical at the moment) so why should Israel get to steal land and have it legitimised?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:05 pm

moo wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
If Jerusalem is Israels's official legal capital, all friendly nations should accept this and base their Embassies there. Its quite embarrassing for them to be sitting in Tel Aviv.


That would require legitimising the illegal land grab that Israel performed (multiple times) to take ownership of Jerusalem - we don't recognise that for any other country, including Crimea (topical at the moment) so why should Israel get to steal land and have it legitimised?


:checkmark: Although it is "only" the old city, east Jerusalem, which has been grabbed, west Jerusalem is undisputed Israeli territory as far as I know. In the old city, there is no room for embassies so they would not be located there and neither is the administration. But indeed it would be the wrong signal in that the US acknowledges annexation by force and that is not how the world should work. Although chances are that Trump isn't taken to seriously when it comes to diplomatic acts, he called the president of Taiwan (Republic of China) and angering the Chinese but by now he is making himself and thus quite irrelevant.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:18 pm

bgm wrote:
Pray tell, why do you think each successive President has signed these 6 month waivers? Just for fun? Or perhaps, because they were advised of the consequences if they didn't? It's going to destabilize the region terribly if this happens.


It is an interesting experiment to give in to all those unreasonable peoples unreasonable demands and see what happens.

Brown streaks everywhere. give the righties their cake and have them choke on it.

I'd prefer to have this in a secure sandbox. Nobody asked me.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4589
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
moo wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
If Jerusalem is Israels's official legal capital, all friendly nations should accept this and base their Embassies there. Its quite embarrassing for them to be sitting in Tel Aviv.


That would require legitimising the illegal land grab that Israel performed (multiple times) to take ownership of Jerusalem - we don't recognise that for any other country, including Crimea (topical at the moment) so why should Israel get to steal land and have it legitimised?


:checkmark: Although it is "only" the old city, east Jerusalem, which has been grabbed, west Jerusalem is undisputed Israeli territory as far as I know. In the old city, there is no room for embassies so they would not be located there and neither is the administration. But indeed it would be the wrong signal in that the US acknowledges annexation by force and that is not how the world should work. Although chances are that Trump isn't taken to seriously when it comes to diplomatic acts, he called the president of Taiwan (Republic of China) and angering the Chinese but by now he is making himself and thus quite irrelevant.


Nope - West Jerusalem was never given to Israel, they annexed it during the 1948 Israeli-Arab war, with Jordan taking East Jerusalem.

Israel then took East Jerusalem in 1967.

None of Jerusalem is "undisputed" Israeli territory, its all annexed territory.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9448
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:35 pm

I believe that it will be impossible for such a moved to help bring peace in the area.

if the violence increases from this more (very possible) then any US Embassy there will continually be at risk from attack,

This is just another ignorant decision from the dumbest President we have ever had.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15964
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:37 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel.



Jerusalem represents the Holy Land to Christians, so of course that means the Republicans base thinks they have a God given right to interfere.


Then it's a well know fact that Sheldon Adleson, will bankroll your candidacies if you will help Israel.
it really not that hard to connect the dots when candidates needs money to stay in power. Sorry to sound so jaded, but sometimes the truth sucks.

Evangelicals need to control Israel in order to catch their hale bop comet to the rapture
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 3664
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:48 pm

With the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 and subsequent 1948 Arab-Israeli War resulted in an armistice line that divided Jerusalem in half, with Israeli control of the western half and Jordanian forces in control of the eastern half.
I dont think there is any doubt that portion of the city has clearly been within boundaries of the State of Israel. The US Consulate in Jerusalem and that of many other nations like Canada, France, are located such part of the city.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4589
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:02 am

mercure1 wrote:
With the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 and subsequent 1948 Arab-Israeli War resulted in an armistice line that divided Jerusalem in half, with Israeli control of the western half and Jordanian forces in control of the eastern half.
I dont think there is any doubt that portion of the city has clearly been within boundaries of the State of Israel. The US Consulate in Jerusalem and that of many other nations like Canada, France, are located such part of the city.


The doubt is in the legitimacy of the ownership - prior to the 1948 war, neither country owned any part of Jerusalem, so whatever was taken was taken by force in the spoils of war, which we don't recognise these days.

There is no way you can legitimise Israels ownership of Jerusalem without also legitimising Crimea, Tibet and a tonne of other land grabs by association of status.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:52 am

moo wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
With the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 and subsequent 1948 Arab-Israeli War resulted in an armistice line that divided Jerusalem in half, with Israeli control of the western half and Jordanian forces in control of the eastern half.
I dont think there is any doubt that portion of the city has clearly been within boundaries of the State of Israel. The US Consulate in Jerusalem and that of many other nations like Canada, France, are located such part of the city.


The doubt is in the legitimacy of the ownership - prior to the 1948 war, neither country owned any part of Jerusalem, so whatever was taken was taken by force in the spoils of war, which we don't recognise these days.


which is exactly why the UN wants it to be a non-nation state international city.

There is no way you can legitimise Israels ownership of Jerusalem without also legitimising Crimea, Tibet and a tonne of other land grabs by association of status.


And there we have Trump serving Russia and China again, painting a big red circle on the back of the head of US Embassy staff. A department Trump also seems to be hellbent to disable to the benefit of Russia and China......

Dutchy wrote:
:checkmark: Although it is "only" the old city, east Jerusalem, which has been grabbed, west Jerusalem is undisputed Israeli territory as far as I know.


It is disputed, but somewhat accepted.

mercure1 wrote:
With the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 and subsequent 1948 Arab-Israeli War resulted in an armistice line that divided Jerusalem in half, with Israeli control of the western half and Jordanian forces in control of the eastern half. .


an armistice only means the shooting stops, not that an agreement has been reached, that is what peace treaties are for.

China and Taiwan have an armistice, extremely intertwined business relationship and what not, neither side has given up claims to the rest of it.
North and South Korea only have an armistice, north and south Vietnam only had a armistice.

That armistice in 1948 has probably only been reached because neither side wanted to destroy old Jerusalem with its holy sites.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:43 am

The right is all paranoid about "Muslim terrorists" what do they think will happen once their dear leader decides to declare Jerusalem the capital of Israel?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:56 am

seb146 wrote:
The right is all paranoid about "Muslim terrorists" what do they think will happen once their dear leader decides to declare Jerusalem the capital of Israel?


more reasons to be paranoid about Muslim terrorists of course..... gosh, if Hitler only had found a way to tempt the Poles into really attacking Gleiwitz Radio station.....

Got to give it to Putin, we have to look at him with awe and respect. He found the US self destruct button.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:15 am

moo wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
moo wrote:

That would require legitimising the illegal land grab that Israel performed (multiple times) to take ownership of Jerusalem - we don't recognise that for any other country, including Crimea (topical at the moment) so why should Israel get to steal land and have it legitimised?


:checkmark: Although it is "only" the old city, east Jerusalem, which has been grabbed, west Jerusalem is undisputed Israeli territory as far as I know. In the old city, there is no room for embassies so they would not be located there and neither is the administration. But indeed it would be the wrong signal in that the US acknowledges annexation by force and that is not how the world should work. Although chances are that Trump isn't taken to seriously when it comes to diplomatic acts, he called the president of Taiwan (Republic of China) and angering the Chinese but by now he is making himself and thus quite irrelevant.


Nope - West Jerusalem was never given to Israel, they annexed it during the 1948 Israeli-Arab war, with Jordan taking East Jerusalem.

Israel then took East Jerusalem in 1967.

None of Jerusalem is "undisputed" Israeli territory, its all annexed territory.


Ok, then all Israeli territory is annexed, is that your frame of reference?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, then all Israeli territory is annexed, is that your frame of reference?


probably the reason why 1 in 6 UN Members don´t recognize Israel at all, and without the Holocaust it probably wouldn´t exist. Jewish terrorism, that is what blowing up a Hotel full of diplomats is, would have been put down by UN troops rather quickly. No clue if that would have been better for peace in the middle east, but there may have been a solution that everybody involved could life better with than the status quo.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4589
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:43 am

Dutchy wrote:
moo wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

:checkmark: Although it is "only" the old city, east Jerusalem, which has been grabbed, west Jerusalem is undisputed Israeli territory as far as I know. In the old city, there is no room for embassies so they would not be located there and neither is the administration. But indeed it would be the wrong signal in that the US acknowledges annexation by force and that is not how the world should work. Although chances are that Trump isn't taken to seriously when it comes to diplomatic acts, he called the president of Taiwan (Republic of China) and angering the Chinese but by now he is making himself and thus quite irrelevant.


Nope - West Jerusalem was never given to Israel, they annexed it during the 1948 Israeli-Arab war, with Jordan taking East Jerusalem.

Israel then took East Jerusalem in 1967.

None of Jerusalem is "undisputed" Israeli territory, its all annexed territory.


Ok, then all Israeli territory is annexed, is that your frame of reference?


No, because Israel started off declaring independence within the borders of the partition plan, and expanded after that - a good proportion of their current land *is* annexed, including illegal settlements in Palestinian areas, Syrian and Lebanese land occupied during various wars, and the ever encroaching wall.

But a good deal of Israel as it is today dates back to the land granted by the UN in 1947 and accepted by Jewish leaders at that time.

But not Jerusalem - Jerusalem is 100% stolen land.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:52 am

moo wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
moo wrote:

Nope - West Jerusalem was never given to Israel, they annexed it during the 1948 Israeli-Arab war, with Jordan taking East Jerusalem.

Israel then took East Jerusalem in 1967.

None of Jerusalem is "undisputed" Israeli territory, its all annexed territory.


Ok, then all Israeli territory is annexed, is that your frame of reference?


No, because Israel started off declaring independence within the borders of the partition plan, and expanded after that - a good proportion of their current land *is* annexed, including illegal settlements in Palestinian areas, Syrian and Lebanese land occupied during various wars, and the ever encroaching wall.

But a good deal of Israel as it is today dates back to the land granted by the UN in 1947 and accepted by Jewish leaders at that time.

But not Jerusalem - Jerusalem is 100% stolen land.


You mean this plan:

Image

Accepted by the Jewish leaders, rejected by the Arabs, it would have been better for everyone if it was the established border, alais.

Image

Israel founded: Armistice
War broke out in 1948 when Britain withdrew, the Jews declared the state of Israel and troops from neighboring Arab nations moved in. After eight months of fighting an armistice line was agreed, establishing the West Bank and Gaza Strip as distinct geographical units.

As far as Jerusalem goes, western Jerusalem was build after 1947, don't know how much territory was to be included in this international city.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4589
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
moo wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, then all Israeli territory is annexed, is that your frame of reference?


No, because Israel started off declaring independence within the borders of the partition plan, and expanded after that - a good proportion of their current land *is* annexed, including illegal settlements in Palestinian areas, Syrian and Lebanese land occupied during various wars, and the ever encroaching wall.

But a good deal of Israel as it is today dates back to the land granted by the UN in 1947 and accepted by Jewish leaders at that time.

But not Jerusalem - Jerusalem is 100% stolen land.


You mean this plan:

Image

Accepted by the Jewish leaders, rejected by the Arabs, it would have been better for everyone if it was the established border, alais.

Image

Israel founded: Armistice
War broke out in 1948 when Britain withdrew, the Jews declared the state of Israel and troops from neighboring Arab nations moved in. After eight months of fighting an armistice line was agreed, establishing the West Bank and Gaza Strip as distinct geographical units.

As far as Jerusalem goes, western Jerusalem was build after 1947, don't know how much territory was to be included in this international city.


Your point is?

West Jerusalem certainly existed as a thing prior to 1947, it was just called "Jerusalem" along with its eastern part prior to 1948 after which it became two separate occupied territories. The area which was to be included in the international city of Jerusalem under the UN plan included areas covered by both West and East Jerusalem - this is why those areas are distinct on any maps which cover this topic, as they were neither part of Israel (including under the partition plan) or Jordan, so the territory is actually extremely well defined.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:33 am

US will move it's Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

Announcement: 1pm ET Wednesday

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-ex ... d=51600561
Last edited by DIRECTFLT on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
LMP737
Posts: 5309
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:42 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel. Let's further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US.

The question being asked in the West Wing is not whether this will destabilize the region, but more like "was Obama in favor of a two state solution? Yes? Then we're against it and are for a single Jewish state".

If the move is made, I won't be surprised or upset if a harsher oil embargo happens (worse than the one in the 70s), to the point where fracking won't be enough to lower prices.


This reminds me something Barry Goldwater once said. "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

IMO this just shows who is really running the show, Pence.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:07 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
US will move it's Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

Announcement: 1pm ET Wednesday

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-ex ... d=51600561


And the world is a little less stable because of the American president.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:08 am

LMP737 wrote:
This reminds me something Barry Goldwater once said. "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

IMO this just shows who is really running the show, Pence.

And VP Pence will be happy to run things as President for 7 years or so, through 2024, if you guys want Trump out of the way so bad. :lol:

einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel. Let's further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US.

The question being asked in the West Wing is not whether this will destabilize the region, but more like "was Obama in favor of a two state solution? Yes? Then we're against it and are for a single Jewish state".

I doubt that. The move is eagerly and fully supported by Democratic Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. So go and ask Sen. Schumer why he supports an action that would "further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US."

“As someone who strongly believes that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel, I am calling for the US Embassy in Israel to be relocated to Jerusalem."

Schumer said the move would "appropriately commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of Jerusalem’s reunification and show the world that the US definitively acknowledges Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... ls-capital
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
WIederling
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, then all Israeli territory is annexed, is that your frame of reference?


Interesting question.

Did the Brits and/or the UN have the Right to make that gift?
The Brits were caretakers not owners!
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
bgm
Topic Author
Posts: 1358
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:30 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
LMP737 wrote:
This reminds me something Barry Goldwater once said. "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

IMO this just shows who is really running the show, Pence.

And VP Pence will be happy to run things as President for 7 years or so, through 2024, if you guys want Trump out of the way so bad. :lol:

einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel. Let's further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US.

The question being asked in the West Wing is not whether this will destabilize the region, but more like "was Obama in favor of a two state solution? Yes? Then we're against it and are for a single Jewish state".

I doubt that. The move is eagerly and fully supported by Democratic Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. So go and ask Sen. Schumer why he supports an action that would "further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US."

“As someone who strongly believes that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel, I am calling for the US Embassy in Israel to be relocated to Jerusalem."

Schumer said the move would "appropriately commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of Jerusalem’s reunification and show the world that the US definitively acknowledges Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... ls-capital


You just cannot see beyond your partisan blinkers, can you? Doesn't matter who thinks it's a good idea, the fact is that it's not. It accomplishes nothing, except to destabilize the region and obliterates any hope of peace.
"When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat." -George Carlin
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6825
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:56 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
US will move it's Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

Announcement: 1pm ET Wednesday

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-ex ... d=51600561


North Korea will take note how the US doesn't care at all about international law and act accordingly.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
ltbewr
Posts: 13008
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:28 am

It will likely cost the USA $2 Billion to build and relocate the full embassy in Jerusalem due to the security fortress it will have to be. Of course the politicians of both our parties will screw people out of health care they need, cut Social Security benefits in the many billions but have no problem wasting $2B on an embassy just to get a few hypocrite Christian and Jewish votes. This is going to encourage even more terrorism against Israel, Europe and the USA by the Palestinians and their 'friends' in the Islamic world then cause even more politcal problems.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:26 pm

ltbewr wrote:
This is going to encourage even more terrorism against Israel, Europe and the USA by the Palestinians and their 'friends' in the Islamic world then cause even more politcal problems.


US embassies have more purpose in spying and controlling clandestime operations than "diplomatic representation".
Look at that monster in Bagdad or the spooks listening post in Berlin. They don't even have a real ambassador.
Just a party pooper that paid for the seat.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:04 pm

bgm wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
LMP737 wrote:
This reminds me something Barry Goldwater once said. "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

IMO this just shows who is really running the show, Pence.

And VP Pence will be happy to run things as President for 7 years or so, through 2024, if you guys want Trump out of the way so bad. :lol:

einsteinboricua wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the Republican obsession with Israel. Let's further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US.

The question being asked in the West Wing is not whether this will destabilize the region, but more like "was Obama in favor of a two state solution? Yes? Then we're against it and are for a single Jewish state".

I doubt that. The move is eagerly and fully supported by Democratic Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. So go and ask Sen. Schumer why he supports an action that would "further destabilize the region by making a very unpopular move that will do nothing except boost egos in the US."

“As someone who strongly believes that Jerusalem is the undivided capital of Israel, I am calling for the US Embassy in Israel to be relocated to Jerusalem."

Schumer said the move would "appropriately commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of Jerusalem’s reunification and show the world that the US definitively acknowledges Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... ls-capital


You just cannot see beyond your partisan blinkers, can you? Doesn't matter who thinks it's a good idea, the fact is that it's not. It accomplishes nothing, except to destabilize the region and obliterates any hope of peace.


There never was, realistically, a hope of any peace with the PLO.

The PLO was established in 1964..... before the 1967 Jerusalem border change.

So, what that means, is the PLO's goal is not a divided pre-1967 Jerusalem, but a "Palestine," free from ALL Jews. Pre-1948.

The PLO does not want and does not seek a two-state solution.

The PLO wants a one-state solution -- for them.

And a no-state solution for Israel in the Middle East.

ltbewr wrote:
It will likely cost the USA $2 Billion to build and relocate the full embassy in Jerusalem due to the security fortress it will have to be.


So that's less than 4 Solyndras... I can live with that.

RE: The President to announce today, that, as far as the US is concerned, that Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel

How will this this declaration that Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel, affect any future US citizen born in Jerusalem, as regards their US Passport stating their place of birth as "Jerusalem, Israel" vs. what was considered PC before, to state only "Israel" as the US citizen's birthplace?
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 5929
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:32 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:

There never was, realistically, a hope of any peace with the PLO.

The PLO was established in 1964..... before the 1967 Jerusalem border change.

So, what that means, is the PLO's goal is not a divided pre-1967 Jerusalem, but a "Palestine," free from ALL Jews. Pre-1948.

The PLO does not want and does not seek a two-state solution.

The PLO wants a one-state solution -- for them.

And a no-state solution for Israel in the Middle East.

Interesting...so it's OK for Israel to do this?

Israel demands to be recognized as the Jewish state. Concerns mount that such recognition means that Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians will be denied basic rights because they're not Jewish.

Israel demands that Jerusalem be theirs and theirs alone.

Israel seems to annex more and more land to effectively force a one-state solution.

But sure, the PLO demanding to even share the area is bad because of reasons.

Guess Jared should be fired. I mean, if he can't bring Middle East, no one can. In any other job, such high expectations with no work to show would get anyone fired.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:43 pm

I have always been curious about something:

What is the official religion of Palestine? Everyone here talks about Jews, Christians, and Muslims with regard to the United States and Israel, so what is the official religion of Palestine?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
kaitak
Posts: 9249
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:01 pm

So, the die is cast then. The US has taken a step which will further alienate it from the vast majority of the Islamic world, as well as most of Europe. Playing to the home crowd whose understanding of the sensitivities of ME politics is very limited and not really giving a tinker's curse about the consequences. Yes, Trump playing another blinder.

And I hope there are consequences; in the medium term, I expect that the EU and Russia will become much closer partners to the Middle Eastern countries than the US; I expect relations to be very frosty - proper, but distant. We will probably not see close government to government contacts. There may well be countries which withdraw their ambassadors "for consultation". Israel, as if it isn't isolated enough, will become even moreso, because its key ally is effectively ostracised; it is no longer able to deliver anything positive in terms of ME policy; it doesn't buy much of its oil or energy from the ME, so what exactly does it bring to the ME. Does it actually bring anything positive? I expect these questions will be asked in quite a number of ME countries. America's influence is reduced almost entirely due to its own actions. From a European and Russian perspective, they have already shown themselves as unreliable after having put the Iranian deal at risk. What they (the Americans) don't seem to get is that they are not actually needed in the Middle East and as they have shown themselves to be unreliable and (from the perspective the ME countries) acting at the behest of Israel rather than taking a broad detached overview, they cease to be a useful ally.

That is the sad reality. Years of patient diplomacy by previous administrations ruined in the stroke of a pen; this day - December 6, 2017 - will go down as a turning point for American policy in the Middle East and it will take a long, long time for it to recover.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 4752
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:18 pm

I agree Kaitak, years of hard work thrown aside for some personal reasons, this Trump continues to denigrate to Office of the USA.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25831
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:26 pm

And so it happens:

President Donald Trump reversed decades of U.S. policy on Wednesday and recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, despite warnings from around the world that the gesture further drives a wedge between Israel and the Palestinians.

In a speech at the White House, Trump said his administration would also begin a process of moving the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which is expected to take years.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1E01PS
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:27 pm

seb146 wrote:
I have always been curious about something:

What is the official religion of Palestine? Everyone here talks about Jews, Christians, and Muslims with regard to the United States and Israel, so what is the official religion of Palestine?



What do you mean, state religion? Or religions of Palestinians: the vast majority (Soenitic) Islam, 50k Christians, Jews in settlements.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 5009
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:45 pm

When is Netanyahu moving to Jeruselum?
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 3664
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:25 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
When is Netanyahu moving to Jeruselum?


His office is there already. So is Israel's president, its parliament, and most ministries.

US Congress and now Trump officially and openly accept the most obvious fact that Jerusalem is the Israeli capital.
 
LTCM
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:35 am

Re: Trump about to further destabilize the Middle East?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:29 pm

This is the single greatest action by any president in the past 50+ years.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dutchy, mke717spotter, Yahoo [Bot] and 73 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos