• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8006
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
US companies are sitting on trillions of cash
best regards
Thomas

...and a lot of those trillions are not in the USA and attempts to bring them back to the USA will be met with resistance from the countries who are presently benefiting from those funds sitting in their countries banks.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8006
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:12 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
The three trillion shortfall or so in federal tax revenue from this most corrupt of all legislation, with Republicans being on record that the bill is passed for future payments, will have to be cut somewhere else. Where can you currently cut 300 Billion per year? Or, since interests rates are rising, the hundreds of billions per year extra to serve the debt?

best regards
Thomas

One key structural issue to note, the states within the USA have the ability to increase local taxes, I suspect that rather than reduce spending to coincide with any decrease in federal funds, they will simply increase local taxes to offset. The foundation of this ability has already been put in the bill by those "high tax states" they were already looking at blow back from having to raise their high taxes even higher, hence the additional loopholes or give backs placed in the bill, depending on which side of the fence you are sitting.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:57 pm

In relation to the Bush tax cuts in 2001(Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001), how does this measure up - bigger or smaller?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
User avatar
akiss20
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:05 pm

bmacleod wrote:
In relation to the Bush tax cuts in 2001(Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001), how does this measure up - bigger or smaller?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001


Un-related but I like this line from the Wiki article

"A report published by researchers with The Heritage Foundation claimed that the tax cuts would result in the complete elimination of the U.S. national debt by fiscal year 2010."

Ha!

A summary of the EGTRRA 15 years later was published by the CBPP

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-t ... h-tax-cuts
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8382
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:08 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
US companies are sitting on trillions of cash
best regards
Thomas

...and a lot of those trillions are not in the USA and attempts to bring them back to the USA will be met with resistance from the countries who are presently benefiting from those funds sitting in their countries banks.


you can not really resist people moving their money out of the country, it is theirs.

par13del wrote:
One key structural issue to note, the states within the USA have the ability to increase local taxes, I suspect that rather than reduce spending to coincide with any decrease in federal funds, they will simply increase local taxes to offset. The foundation of this ability has already been put in the bill by those "high tax states" they were already looking at blow back from having to raise their high taxes even higher, hence the additional loopholes or give backs placed in the bill, depending on which side of the fence you are sitting.


Which is probably why the new tax bill has the joy of people paying federal taxes on their state taxes. Probably the first time that a tax law in the US was specifically designed to hurt democratic run (= above average successful) states.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 11769
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

US companies are sitting on trillions of cash and the US is at or already beyond full employment.


This statement is bold but not very factual. You have balance sheets for all these companies? Or do you know what real unemployment is? Underemployment?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/heres-t ... -rate.html
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8382
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:20 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

US companies are sitting on trillions of cash and the US is at or already beyond full employment.


This statement is bold but not very factuall


According to the U.S. PIRG Education Fund and the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy the US fortune 500 companies had 2.6 trillion USD stored away of shore.
And yes, I do know what under employment is. U6 underemployed are more often than not low skilled workers, and in a globalised world those jobs ain't coming back. Those do only compete with a small part of the total workforce and may dampen wage increases, But for most of the workforce wages should be exploding.
Some GOP strategists are probably banking on hiding the tax heist behind wage increases that just will have to happen at some point.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9164
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Which is probably why the new tax bill has the joy of people paying federal taxes on their state taxes. Probably the first time that a tax law in the US was specifically designed to hurt democratic run (= above average successful) states.


Nobody will "[pay] federal taxes on their state taxes." That's total nonsense. Said correctly: state taxes no longer reduce federal taxable income without limit. The practical impact is that federal tax rates for two equivalent workers will no longer vary depending on state of residence. That's exactly the way it should be.

I can't over-emphasize how much I love the SALT cap. It's just delicious. High-tax states can't continue free-riding on their federal tax obligations because of their inefficient public services and wasteful spending. Welcome to the party, pals.

tommy1808 wrote:
you can not really resist people moving their money out of the country, it is theirs.


Interesting that you acknowledge people's earnings as "theirs" in this post....

tommy1808 wrote:
Some GOP strategists are probably banking on hiding the tax heist behind wage increases that just will have to happen at some point.


But here you describe the tax overhaul as a "heist," when the principle effect of the reforms is to let people keep more of their own money. :scratchchin:
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8006
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

you can not really resist people moving their money out of the country, it is theirs.
best regards
Thomas

...you mean moving it out from offshore and back into the USA right?
My point is that those foreign countries who will loose the funds will be doing their best to "persuade" those depositors - company's or individuals - to let them stay.
Wonder what type of inducements they will offer, tax breaks?
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3264
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:35 pm

What a bunch of pussies. Why didn't they just eliminate payroll and corporate taxes all together? That would get lots of votes and supercharge the economy.
Most recent aircraft flown: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, 717 VH-YQW, 737-600 LN-RPA, 737-700 OY-JTY, 737-800 LN-NGA, 767-300 ZK-NCI, 777-300 ZK-OKN, 787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 6494
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:15 pm

Well, we can thank Republicans for confirming that, after years of bashing the theory, they believe Keynesian economics work.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 11769
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:19 pm

zkojq wrote:
What a bunch of pussies. Why didn't they just eliminate payroll and corporate taxes all together? That would get lots of votes and supercharge the economy.


I like the idea of suspending the payroll tax but only in real bad times and as for suspending corporate taxes just ask Gov Cuomo he did it in upstate NY.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9164
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:29 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Well, we can thank Republicans for confirming that, after years of bashing the theory, they believe Keynesian economics work.


Oh really? How do you figure?

* pops popcorn *
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:30 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Which is probably why the new tax bill has the joy of people paying federal taxes on their state taxes. Probably the first time that a tax law in the US was specifically designed to hurt democratic run (= above average successful) states.


Nobody will "[pay] federal taxes on their state taxes." That's total nonsense. Said correctly: state taxes no longer reduce federal taxable income without limit. The practical impact is that federal tax rates for two equivalent workers will no longer vary depending on state of residence. That's exactly the way it should be.

I can't over-emphasize how much I love the SALT cap. It's just delicious. High-tax states can't continue free-riding on their federal tax obligations because of their inefficient public services and wasteful spending. Welcome to the party, pals.



This is the RNC in a nutshell--there are states who are essentially doing what the federal government should have been doing all along. California requires trucks to run cleaner, and my air 2200 miles away is better. But Texans and Mississippians can't stand it sooo....can't have an America that's too clean! There's almost pride in telling other people they can't do a good thing.

What you're essentially saying is it's okay to pay taxes on taxes. Great job!

This tax plan and Trumpism will cause another recession in the next few years, the country will stop rampant deregulation and moderate, a Democrat will clean it up and 8 years after that when it's largely better, wash rinse repeat.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3264
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:34 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
What a bunch of pussies. Why didn't they just eliminate payroll and corporate taxes all together? That would get lots of votes and supercharge the economy.


I like the idea of suspending the payroll tax but only in real bad times and as for suspending corporate taxes just ask Gov Cuomo he did it in upstate NY.

All taxes. Get rid of all of them. No exceptions. That would give everyone some massive, massive economic growth.
Last edited by zkojq on Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Most recent aircraft flown: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, 717 VH-YQW, 737-600 LN-RPA, 737-700 OY-JTY, 737-800 LN-NGA, 767-300 ZK-NCI, 777-300 ZK-OKN, 787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8006
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:41 pm

zkojq wrote:
What a bunch of pussies. Why didn't they just eliminate payroll and corporate taxes all together? That would get lots of votes and supercharge the economy.

That would get the USA on the EU black list of nations, any country that has a corporate rate of between 0 and 10% in their mindset is an off shore tax haven to be dealt with.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9164
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:44 pm

N867DA wrote:
This is the RNC in a nutshell--there are states who are essentially doing what the federal government should have been doing all along. California requires trucks to run cleaner, and my air 2200 miles away is better. But Texans and Mississippians can't stand it sooo....can't have an America that's too clean! There's almost pride in telling other people they can't do a good thing.


California is welcome to pass regulations that exceed federal law. They just have no right to make Texas pay for it. That's federalism in a nutshell.

Truck regulations aren't the reason why California spends 50% more per resident than Texas.

N867DA wrote:
What you're essentially saying is it's okay to pay taxes on taxes. Great job!


That's both rhetorical and practical nonsense. All of your taxes - federal, state, local - are paid from the same income sources. The practical impact of the tax reform is that your state & local taxes have less impact on your federal tax obligations. That's the way it should be.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3264
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:49 pm

par13del wrote:
zkojq wrote:
What a bunch of pussies. Why didn't they just eliminate payroll and corporate taxes all together? That would get lots of votes and supercharge the economy.

That would get the USA on the EU black list of nations, any country that has a corporate rate of between 0 and 10% in their mindset is an off shore tax haven to be dealt with.


You make it sound as if you care about that.
Most recent aircraft flown: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, 717 VH-YQW, 737-600 LN-RPA, 737-700 OY-JTY, 737-800 LN-NGA, 767-300 ZK-NCI, 777-300 ZK-OKN, 787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
N867DA
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:55 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
That's both rhetorical and practical nonsense. All of your taxes - federal, state, local - are paid from the same income sources. The practical impact of the tax reform is that your state & local taxes have less impact on your federal tax obligations. That's the way it should be.


It seems like ultimately this is just a conflict between people who think the government has an active role in the welfare of its citizens and people who prefer a more laissez-faire approach with fewer services and a smaller safety net. Higher tax states tend to back regulations I support, and with them the costs incurred. And I feel most of those regulations should be rolled out nationally, especially consumer protection and environmental regulations. This seems to be a ploy to make states that were willing to pay for that level of service to regress to low-tax levels instead of the other way around.

Edit: formatting
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8006
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:02 pm

zkojq wrote:
You make it sound as if you care about that.

I do, the EU is using that metric to force my nation to introduce corporate tax, something which we do not have at this time, so push back by the USA, the largest contributor to our economy is something of great interest.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9417
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:15 pm

I think overall the 21% corporate rate is a great idea. However, the eliminated estate tax and carried interest privileges are bad.

I agree with lowering income tax rates (benefitting taxpayers, who tend to be wealthy). And eliminating the exemption for state taxes is fine with me. It makes the entire economy more fair. If I want to buy such-and-such, I can't dodge federal taxes anymore to get it thru the local government. This is fine. That's how life ordinarily is.

For-profit operations tend to be more effective, and help more people, and heal more sick children, than non-profit operations.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3264
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:29 pm

par13del wrote:
zkojq wrote:
You make it sound as if you care about that.

I do, the EU is using that metric to force my nation to introduce corporate tax, something which we do not have at this time, so push back by the USA, the largest contributor to our economy is something of great interest.

And does your nation use a lack of corporate tax to try and attract foreign firms and trusts, undermining the tax base of other places (like EU members)?
Most recent aircraft flown: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, 717 VH-YQW, 737-600 LN-RPA, 737-700 OY-JTY, 737-800 LN-NGA, 767-300 ZK-NCI, 777-300 ZK-OKN, 787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
wardialer
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:38 pm

Can someone please explain this tax bill being passed?

Is this the same when Trump announced something about reducing taxes on US-based corporations so they cannot be outsourced to a foreign country?
If this bill is the same, then I would be very happy.

I am in the IT field and there is no IT jobs here in the USA because most of them are outsourced in Eastern European countries.

So, I would at least hope that this bill is the same that just passed a few days ago that will allow taxes to be cut or decreased for US companies in order for them to stay here in the USA instead of being all outsourced to Europe.

Its just very hard for me to get an IT tech job here in the USA because most computer jobs are in Eastern Europe.
Hopefully this Bill can mitigate this problem and bring back all the tech jobs in the USA.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6639
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:39 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:

That's both rhetorical and practical nonsense. All of your taxes - federal, state, local - are paid from the same income sources. The practical impact of the tax reform is that your state & local taxes have less impact on your federal tax obligations. That's the way it should be.

No, we had that before the GOP set limits. Now there is double taxation. By setting the limits at 10,000 on state/local income and sales l tax deductions, they will be double taxing folks,. Especially those in high tax areas. This right here will be a high point of contention going forward. As due to the way the GOP rushed this Bill, folks outside of high tax areas will slowly get swept into this trap due to the index of inflation that will be used while all this "Growth" in incomes occurs.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
wardialer
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:45 pm

[threeid][/threeid]I hope this bill will stop outsourcing all our jobs to Europe. Really hope so. And all the USA-Based companies that are already there, should be TAXED as to the maximum limit as possible, because those corporations deserve it because there anti-American conducting business in a foreign country. And I think Trump should stick his nose to businesses saying they should come back, if not, then lets Tax those that are already there.

We have great intelligent people here with great skills in the USA, like programmers, good English speaking skills, and etc, so we should not put all our tech industry and services in Europe.

I would sure hope this Bill sends a message to those companies in order for them to come back.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2586
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:45 pm

Well congratulations to the Republicans, I just had a meeting with our healthcare provider, they called the meeting to let us know what's coming down the pipeline in 2019....Right now our company of 28,000 employees (soon to be 35,000) is looking at a 20% rise in our healthcare costs, mostly due to uninsured patients after the mandate dies....If you do use ACA insurance, get ready, they are predicting a 40% rise in premiums in 2019.....So much winning......
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 6494
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:10 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
Oh really? How do you figure?

* pops popcorn *

Per Investopedia:
Keynes advocated increased government expenditures and lower taxes to stimulate demand and pull the global economy out of the depression. Subsequently, Keynesian economics was used to refer to the concept that optimal economic performance could be achieved -- and economic slumps prevented -- by influencing aggregate demand through activist stabilization and economic intervention policies by the government.


Taking on debt (by cutting taxes) to stimulate the economy (their projected economic benefit)...sounds a lot like ARRA, yet that was awful.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3538
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:45 am

Flighty wrote:
I think overall the 21% corporate rate is a great idea. However, the eliminated estate tax and carried interest privileges are bad.

I agree with lowering income tax rates (benefitting taxpayers, who tend to be wealthy). And eliminating the exemption for state taxes is fine with me. It makes the entire economy more fair. If I want to buy such-and-such, I can't dodge federal taxes anymore to get it thru the local government. This is fine. That's how life ordinarily is.

For-profit operations tend to be more effective, and help more people, and heal more sick children, than non-profit operations.



21% corporate tax is good especially for small businesses however the loopholes that make allow many fortune 500 companies pay far less than that under the old tax should be eliminated. IIRC they stay in place. How about you tell Exxon or Boeing you get to pay 21% but no more subsidies from the federal government.

Many wealthy individuals get a lot of their income from dividends and investment income which are taxed far lower than employment income and with the estate tax being eliminated and carried interest loophole remaining this allows many rich individuals to earn income taxed at a much lower level than you average Joe. If you earn $10 million through employment income (professional athlete for example) then you definitely pay your fair share of taxes but many business executives get compensated through stock options which the same $10 million gets taxed far less. They athlete and business executive get paid the same amount for a job why should one get a preferential tax rate?
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10274
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:46 am

Under the new tax code the full cost of equipment can be written off immediately. That, combined with the corporate tax windfall, should lead to US companies buying a lot of robots and advanced software. These are made in the US in part, but also in Europe and Asia, so everybody should benefit. Not sure it will help the commercial balance, but who cares ?

I'm wondering if buying all this tech will not mean more unemployment rather than less, though.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8006
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:25 am

zkojq wrote:
par13del wrote:
zkojq wrote:
And does your nation use a lack of corporate tax to try and attract foreign firms and trusts, undermining the tax base of other places (like EU members)?

No, we don't have it because we don't need it, we do not have the population of the EU, industrial base, social benefits and a host of other things that you Europeans pay taxes for, besides, why would you allow your citizens and companies to invest in foreign countries when you need the jobs and investments in the EU, simply put laws in place to prevent them from spending their money outside of the EU, or are they afraid to pass laws on their own citizens?
Anyway we are derailing a USA thread.
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 11415
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:47 am

tommy1808 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

This.

The average American votes based on their perception of reality, and when voters have seen the equivalent of a pay bump thanks to lower taxes, coupled with what will hopefully continue to be solid economic growth, pay increases, and low unemployment, they'll remember that at the polls, despite whatever hand-wringing is taking place by the Democrats or their willing accomplices in the mainstream media.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Main Stream Media, another ridiculous argument and term from the Republican Clones, deniers of reality, followers of the big Buffoon,.


And there you have the biggest problem. The Trump voter will just delude themselves into believing they got a tax cut, because Jesus Donald Christ told them so. They swallowed the other 1600+ lies hook, line and sinker as well.

best regards
Thomas


That is why I call it the Alternate Universe, he lies they believe every word. All in all , rather naive, and I am being kind using naive. :liar: :liar:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6639
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:37 am

Aesma wrote:
Under the new tax code the full cost of equipment can be written off immediately. That, combined with the corporate tax windfall, should lead to US companies buying a lot of robots and advanced software. These are made in the US in part, but also in Europe and Asia, so everybody should benefit. Not sure it will help the commercial balance, but who cares ?

I'm wondering if buying all this tech will not mean more unemployment rather than less, though.


People will be needed to support the Automation, Robots and supply chain. the jobs we do changes, not the need for jobs. A job may end designing shoes, but one may open in planning space suits for trips to mars.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9164
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:21 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Oh really? How do you figure?

* pops popcorn *

Per Investopedia:
Keynes advocated increased government expenditures and lower taxes to stimulate demand and pull the global economy out of the depression. Subsequently, Keynesian economics was used to refer to the concept that optimal economic performance could be achieved -- and economic slumps prevented -- by influencing aggregate demand through activist stabilization and economic intervention policies by the government.


Taking on debt (by cutting taxes) to stimulate the economy (their projected economic benefit)...sounds a lot like ARRA, yet that was awful.


Supply-side economics also advocates lower tax rates and yet it is the ideological opposite of Keynesian economics. Lowering taxes is not an exclusively Keynesian position. Therefore, tax cuts cannot be classified as "Keynesian."

WarRI1 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
And there you have the biggest problem. The Trump voter will just delude themselves into believing they got a tax cut, because Jesus Donald Christ told them so. They swallowed the other 1600+ lies hook, line and sinker as well.


That is why I call it the Alternate Universe, he lies they believe every word. All in all , rather naive, and I am being kind using naive. :liar: :liar:


Yall realize that the tax reforms go into effect on January 1? That means paycheck withholding will decrease for 80% of Americans starting 12 days from now. In no more than 3 weeks, 52 million American households will have received their first paycheck with more take-home pay. The delusion is that you think this isn't happening.

jetwet1 wrote:
Well congratulations to the Republicans, I just had a meeting with our healthcare provider, they called the meeting to let us know what's coming down the pipeline in 2019....Right now our company of 28,000 employees (soon to be 35,000) is looking at a 20% rise in our healthcare costs, mostly due to uninsured patients after the mandate dies....If you do use ACA insurance, get ready, they are predicting a 40% rise in premiums in 2019.....So much winning......


And how are those health care cost increases the Republican's fault? Obamacare was passed with zero Republican votes. Democrats totally own it. Democrats promised families would save $2,500 per year but cost increases only accelerated. Democrats know Obamacare is toast, but Democratic Senators wouldn't vote for reforms they admit are necessary.

Meanwhile, Republicans promised more take-home pay and you'll get it before the milk in your refrigerator goes bad.

casinterest wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
That's both rhetorical and practical nonsense. All of your taxes - federal, state, local - are paid from the same income sources. The practical impact of the tax reform is that your state & local taxes have less impact on your federal tax obligations. That's the way it should be.


No, we had that before the GOP set limits. Now there is double taxation. By setting the limits at 10,000 on state/local income and sales l tax deductions, they will be double taxing folks,. Especially those in high tax areas. This right here will be a high point of contention going forward. As due to the way the GOP rushed this Bill, folks outside of high tax areas will slowly get swept into this trap due to the index of inflation that will be used while all this "Growth" in incomes occurs.


Wrong dude. There is no fundamental reason why one taxing authority is obligated to credit taxes you have pay to another taxing authority. Both the federal and state governments could choose to assess income taxes against our full gross income. You would still be paying each tax authority one time.

Unlimited SALT deductions have allowed those living in high-tax states to pay lower federal taxes than equivalent earners in low-tax states. That is fundamentally unfair because our rights & privileges don't vary by state of residence. We're all equally Americans whether we live in Texas, New York, or Wyoming. We should pay equal federal taxes whether we live in Texas, New York, or Wyoming.

Pay your fair share to the federal government. If you think your state and local taxes are too high, then direct your frustration at your local government. It's remarkably easy to get involved in state & local politics and Republicans have just given you an incentive to do so.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 6639
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:41 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
That's both rhetorical and practical nonsense. All of your taxes - federal, state, local - are paid from the same income sources. The practical impact of the tax reform is that your state & local taxes have less impact on your federal tax obligations. That's the way it should be.


No, we had that before the GOP set limits. Now there is double taxation. By setting the limits at 10,000 on state/local income and sales l tax deductions, they will be double taxing folks,. Especially those in high tax areas. This right here will be a high point of contention going forward. As due to the way the GOP rushed this Bill, folks outside of high tax areas will slowly get swept into this trap due to the index of inflation that will be used while all this "Growth" in incomes occurs.


Wrong dude. There is no fundamental reason why one taxing authority is obligated to credit taxes you have pay to another taxing authority. Both the federal and state governments could choose to assess income taxes against our full gross income. You would still be paying each tax authority one time.

Unlimited SALT deductions have allowed those living in high-tax states to pay lower federal taxes than equivalent earners in low-tax states. That is fundamentally unfair because our rights & privileges don't vary by state of residence. We're all equally Americans whether we live in Texas, New York, or Wyoming. We should pay equal federal taxes whether we live in Texas, New York, or Wyoming.

Pay your fair share to the federal government. If you think your state and local taxes are too high, then direct your frustration at your local government. It's remarkably easy to get involved in state & local politics and Republicans have just given you an incentive to do so.


Why should i pay a fair share to the Government? Those liars and criminals in the GOP just shortchanged the government with their tax cuts. Our children and grandchildren will have to pay the debt these criminals keep increasing in the name of their private donors.

The GOP has ceased to be a party of responsibility. They are just a bunch of mafia thugs. Willing to burn it all down for an insurance payment.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
afcjets
Posts: 2111
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:13 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
I'd be eager to see how many companies go right ahead and give their employees significant wage increases enough to say "you know what? this isn't that bad after all".


Here are four large ones so far in the first few hours of it being passed and before even being implemented:

AT&T - $1000 bonus to employees
Boeing - $300 million in employee related investments
Wells Fargo - raising minimum hourly rate to $15
Fifth Third Bank - raising hourly rate and giving bonuses
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8382
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:31 am

afcjets wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
I'd be eager to see how many companies go right ahead and give their employees significant wage increases enough to say "you know what? this isn't that bad after all".


Here are four large ones so far in the first few hours of it being passed and before even being implemented:

AT&T - $1000 bonus to employees


out of the, at least 4000 USD pay raise the GOP promised, they got 1k... yay. Trump again under delivers by 75%. Oh, and the 3 trillion budget shortfall over the next 10 years means that they, per capita, will also receive ~1800 USD/year less in services like streets, schools, law enforcement and such. So they are already down 800 USD/Year.

And since the US now officially, the confessions are on record, a nation with a government for hire, AT&T is probably well advicsed to give the White House something to point too if they want that merger to go trough without a glitch. The kind of stuff you have to do to stay in business in a kleptocracy ... just like in Iran, communist China or Vietnam....

Boeing - $300 million in employee related investments


Boeing didn´t invest in human resources in the past? Well, they still got to repay the help with Bombardier
And they raised their stock buy back program by 4 billion...... breadcrumbs for the employees.

And how does "employee related investments translate into "bigger paycheck"?

hint: Boeing doesn´t even mention wages. They mention corporate giving, workforce development, and infrastructure enhancements for employees. So they get a nicer rest room. Awesome.

Wells Fargo - raising minimum hourly rate to $15
Fifth Third Bank - raising hourly rate and giving bonuses


Wells Fargo already did that last year and Banks got significant pressure to increase wages to a minimum of 15USD/Hour since at least 2015.

Correlation does not mean causation, you know.....

But again, that is exactly the effect i predicted above, and just as also predicted, Trump´s fans are falling for it. Again.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:11 am

#TooMuchWinning ! !

Leo Reisman and his Orchestra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt2Rmx-h84I
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
jetero
Posts: 3522
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:30 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Oh really? How do you figure?

* pops popcorn *

Per Investopedia:
Keynes advocated increased government expenditures and lower taxes to stimulate demand and pull the global economy out of the depression. Subsequently, Keynesian economics was used to refer to the concept that optimal economic performance could be achieved -- and economic slumps prevented -- by influencing aggregate demand through activist stabilization and economic intervention policies by the government.


Taking on debt (by cutting taxes) to stimulate the economy (their projected economic benefit)...sounds a lot like ARRA, yet that was awful.


Supply-side economics also advocates lower tax rates and yet it is the ideological opposite of Keynesian economics. Lowering taxes is not an exclusively Keynesian position. Therefore, tax cuts cannot be classified as "Keynesian."


North Texas is 100% correct.

WarRI1 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
And there you have the biggest problem. The Trump voter will just delude themselves into believing they got a tax cut, because Jesus Donald Christ told them so. They swallowed the other 1600+ lies hook, line and sinker as well.


That is why I call it the Alternate Universe, he lies they believe every word. All in all , rather naive, and I am being kind using naive. :liar: :liar:


Yall realize that the tax reforms go into effect on January 1? That means paycheck withholding will decrease for 80% of Americans starting 12 days from now. In no more than 3 weeks, 52 million American households will have received their first paycheck with more take-home pay. The delusion is that you think this isn't happening.

Again, you're correct. For most working-class Americans (~$30k-$45k/year) it'll amount to no more than $50/paycheck (if that). That's a quantitative argument that you will win. There's a cost side of that ledger of bribery that you're arguing for with veiled principles that can be summarized in essence as "Mommy, you can't make me do that."

jetwet1 wrote:
Well congratulations to the Republicans, I just had a meeting with our healthcare provider, they called the meeting to let us know what's coming down the pipeline in 2019....Right now our company of 28,000 employees (soon to be 35,000) is looking at a 20% rise in our healthcare costs, mostly due to uninsured patients after the mandate dies....If you do use ACA insurance, get ready, they are predicting a 40% rise in premiums in 2019.....So much winning......


And how are those health care cost increases the Republican's fault? Obamacare was passed with zero Republican votes. Democrats totally own it. Democrats promised families would save $2,500 per year but cost increases only accelerated. Democrats know Obamacare is toast, but Democratic Senators wouldn't vote for reforms they admit are necessary.

Meanwhile, Republicans promised more take-home pay and you'll get it before the milk in your refrigerator goes bad.

Is governance a sport to you where one team wins and the other loses? (I presume you care about the country?) "Democrats own Obamacare" . . . not sure what that means to you, but, as a typical Repub, you're all about retribution, not accountability.

Obamacare aside, the more relevant question to you is do you believe that health care is human right?

Also, you seem to have an advanced enough education of economics--do you not view wage levels as relative? Can you not at least posit reductions in tax rates depressing wages?

casinterest wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
That's both rhetorical and practical nonsense. All of your taxes - federal, state, local - are paid from the same income sources. The practical impact of the tax reform is that your state & local taxes have less impact on your federal tax obligations. That's the way it should be.


No, we had that before the GOP set limits. Now there is double taxation. By setting the limits at 10,000 on state/local income and sales l tax deductions, they will be double taxing folks,. Especially those in high tax areas. This right here will be a high point of contention going forward. As due to the way the GOP rushed this Bill, folks outside of high tax areas will slowly get swept into this trap due to the index of inflation that will be used while all this "Growth" in incomes occurs.

Wrong dude. There is no fundamental reason why one taxing authority is obligated to credit taxes you have pay to another taxing authority. Both the federal and state governments could choose to assess income taxes against our full gross income. You would still be paying each tax authority one time.


Once again my colleague to the north (are you in a beauty pageant for the most popular almost-30 white guy with a grudge in Coppell? Can I send you my ballot?) is factually correct, and that's a good thing.

DfwRevolution wrote:
Unlimited SALT deductions have allowed those living in high-tax states to pay lower federal taxes than equivalent earners in low-tax states. That is fundamentally unfair because our rights & privileges don't vary by state of residence. We're all equally Americans whether we live in Texas, New York, or Wyoming. We should pay equal federal taxes whether we live in Texas, New York, or Wyoming.


Ha! So said one who argued for federalism and "equality." (The litmus test is whatever you think works for you, right?)

DfwRevolution wrote:
Pay your fair share to the federal government. If you think your state and local taxes are too high, then direct your frustration at your local government. It's remarkably easy to get involved in state & local politics and Republicans have just given you an incentive to do so.


Ha! So said an ideologue who can only view such issues from a dais of principle, with the determinant based solely upon his own benefit and circumstance.

So sad "SALT" is now an acronym that means "state and local taxes" as opposed to what it used to mean . . . "Strategic Arms Limitation Talks."

What real grievance do you have, Cowboy? Because you whine and whine like nobody's business.

I'm a fifth-generation Texan and suspect that you're probably a first-generationer, with deep Midwest roots (and I'm being generous). Is there any way we can get you dreamers out of the state? (DF also needs to get the f*ck out.) Maybe we can build a wall.
 
wardialer
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:32 am

I guess nobody cares to answer my question because no right American cares that our companies are serving business from foreign countries.
Will this Bill stop outsourcing of our jobs?

I just wish Trump would pose a Tax on those companies who are conducting business abroad and for those companies who would like to stay in America are Taxed free.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8382
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:56 am

jetero wrote:
Meanwhile, Republicans promised more take-home pay and you'll get it before the milk in your refrigerator goes bad.


to the tune of 4000 to 9000 USD for the average worker in higher wages and lower taxes paid.....

wardialer wrote:
I guess nobody cares to answer my question because no right American cares that our companies are serving business from foreign countries.


Well, why would anyone care? Forcing US companies to price themselves out of the market won´t create jobs, it makes them go away.

Will this Bill stop outsourcing of our jobs?


It actually creates plenty of incentive to move production to foreign countries

I just wish Trump would pose a Tax on those companies who are conducting business abroad and for those companies who would like to stay in America are Taxed free.


If you want a global trade war with the US on one and the rest of the planet on the other side, please do. Considering the fast declining importance of the US economy, it is not that hard to predict who´s going to come out on top of that one.
Image
global GDP share PPP

It would also make it fairly attractive to sell US companies to new foreign owners and make it a non-US company. Or do you also propose that Trump tells companies who, when and for what price US Americans can sell their assets to?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
jetero
Posts: 3522
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:08 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
#TooMuchWinning ! !

Leo Reisman and his Orchestra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt2Rmx-h84I


Because . . . ?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8382
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:09 am

jetero wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
#TooMuchWinning ! !

Leo Reisman and his Orchestra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt2Rmx-h84I


Because . . . ?


Stockholm Syndrome

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2586
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:38 am

jetero wrote:

Yall realize that the tax reforms go into effect on January 1? That means paycheck withholding will decrease for 80% of Americans starting 12 days from now. In no more than 3 weeks, 52 million American households will have received their first paycheck with more take-home pay. The delusion is that you think this isn't happening.

Again, you're correct. For most working-class Americans (~$30k-$45k/year) it'll amount to no more than $50/paycheck (if that). That's a quantitative argument that you will win. There's a cost side of that ledger of bribery that you're arguing for with veiled principles that can be summarized in essence as "Mommy, you can't make me do that."

jetwet1 wrote:
Well congratulations to the Republicans, I just had a meeting with our healthcare provider, they called the meeting to let us know what's coming down the pipeline in 2019....Right now our company of 28,000 employees (soon to be 35,000) is looking at a 20% rise in our healthcare costs, mostly due to uninsured patients after the mandate dies....If you do use ACA insurance, get ready, they are predicting a 40% rise in premiums in 2019.....So much winning......


And how are those health care cost increases the Republican's fault? Obamacare was passed with zero Republican votes. Democrats totally own it. Democrats promised families would save $2,500 per year but cost increases only accelerated. Democrats know Obamacare is toast, but Democratic Senators wouldn't vote for reforms they admit are necessary.

Meanwhile, Republicans promised more take-home pay and you'll get it before the milk in your refrigerator goes bad.

Is governance a sport to you where one team wins and the other loses? (I presume you care about the country?) "Democrats own Obamacare" . . . not sure what that means to you, but, as a typical Repub, you're all about retribution, not accountability.


Let's hit the first part first..... No you won't se a different in your first paycheck, at least according to ADP, you may see it in February, it depends on how long it takes to get everything loaded into the payroll systems.

As to the healthcare...Okay, stick with me...The ACA mandate goes away, people decide to save a hundred and whatever dollars a month and drop out, go to the hospital, hospital treas them, they have no insurance, can't afford the bill now, stiff the hospital, hospital raises rates to recover the lost income, rinse and repeat, rates go up, more people drop out, rates go up....So yep, Trump in the end will be able to claim he killed Obamacare....And those most affected by it's loss voted for him...Smart moves.
 
wardialer
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:44 am

The Tech industry is dying in the US and for people like me who are in the IT field are moving out of the US for cheap labor and Tax free proposals in Eastern European countries. That is MY issue here. I lost my IT job a few years ago due to a foreigner. What does that tell us??

So, basically, I need to understand in Layman's terms, because I heard something that Trump announced recently that he is going to reduce corporate taxes in order to keep US based jobs here in the USA.

So are you guys telling me now, that this is going to make things worse as far as moving jobs out from the US??

I need a bit more understanding on this Tax Reform Bill.

Sorry to be so agitated and disgruntled about this, but it really makes me want to wish that the Trump administration would stop this whole outsourcing of jobs.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8382
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:02 am

wardialer wrote:
The Tech industry is dying in the US and for people like me who are in the IT field are moving out of the US for cheap labor and Tax free proposals in Eastern European countries. That is MY issue here. I lost my IT job a few years ago due to a foreigner. What does that tell us??.


That your return on investment (=wage) was too low compared with other workers. Or that your Boss was simply greedy.

In Terms of US$ GDP generated per working hour the US worker is below the OECD average, but pay per hour is among the highest.

https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm
https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/average-wages.htm

That is not really your fault, but the environment you have to work in, simply makes your labor too expensive for what you deliver, unless you are truly outstanding in your abilities. That also means that a company that wants to do everything in the US and made by Americans, would likely price themselves out of the market. It is hard to notice that the people blaming China for Job losses have their houses full of stuff made in China.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3264
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:18 am

salttee wrote:
“Taxpayers will be able to shield their labor income from tax by simply setting up a corporation and having their income accrue in the form of corporate profits. . . . Income that would have been taxed at the high individual rates is instead taxed at the low corporate rate,”


This will benefit the working poor greatly.
Most recent aircraft flown: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, 717 VH-YQW, 737-600 LN-RPA, 737-700 OY-JTY, 737-800 LN-NGA, 767-300 ZK-NCI, 777-300 ZK-OKN, 787-9 VH-ZNA, CS100 HB-JBG
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10274
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:15 am

casinterest wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Under the new tax code the full cost of equipment can be written off immediately. That, combined with the corporate tax windfall, should lead to US companies buying a lot of robots and advanced software. These are made in the US in part, but also in Europe and Asia, so everybody should benefit. Not sure it will help the commercial balance, but who cares ?

I'm wondering if buying all this tech will not mean more unemployment rather than less, though.


People will be needed to support the Automation, Robots and supply chain. the jobs we do changes, not the need for jobs. A job may end designing shoes, but one may open in planning space suits for trips to mars.


Yeah but that's not the same people. Well, some of them can learn to work on robots, but many aren't going to be able to. Basically if you can't find a job now, especially in the US where unemployment is low so there is pressure to hire "anybody", then things won't improve for you.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 6494
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:59 am

afcjets wrote:
Boeing - $300 million in employee related investments

Boeing has always given its employees award bonuses depending on how they finished the year and if they met their goals. This tax bill MAY allow the company to give employees more money but with all the cost cutting and preference to pay shareholders and executives, I'm not holding my breath.

A few years ago the company blew through their stated goals, yet employees got a default bonus because they weren't efficient. Meanwhile, in the C-Suite, millions were handed out to executives.

afcjets wrote:
Wells Fargo - raising minimum hourly rate to $15
Fifth Third Bank - raising hourly rate and giving bonuses

I thought raising the minimum wage was scandalous...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
bgm
Posts: 1648
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:10 pm

What is all this going to do to the deficit that the GOP care so deeply about? (you know, the one they shut down the gov over a few years ago).
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:10 pm

N867DA wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Which is probably why the new tax bill has the joy of people paying federal taxes on their state taxes. Probably the first time that a tax law in the US was specifically designed to hurt democratic run (= above average successful) states.


Nobody will "[pay] federal taxes on their state taxes." That's total nonsense. Said correctly: state taxes no longer reduce federal taxable income without limit. The practical impact is that federal tax rates for two equivalent workers will no longer vary depending on state of residence. That's exactly the way it should be.

I can't over-emphasize how much I love the SALT cap. It's just delicious. High-tax states can't continue free-riding on their federal tax obligations because of their inefficient public services and wasteful spending. Welcome to the party, pals.



This is the RNC in a nutshell--there are states who are essentially doing what the federal government should have been doing all along. California requires trucks to run cleaner, and my air 2200 miles away is better. But Texans and Mississippians can't stand it sooo....can't have an America that's too clean! There's almost pride in telling other people they can't do a good thing.

What you're essentially saying is it's okay to pay taxes on taxes. Great job!

This tax plan and Trumpism will cause another recession in the next few years, the country will stop rampant deregulation and moderate, a Democrat will clean it up and 8 years after that when it's largely better, wash rinse repeat.


Boy whatever you're smoking there in Kalifornia must be pretty good... :roll:
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 2122M, casinterest, Dutchy, jetero, johnboy, sbworcs, trpmb6, Tugger, Tvilum and 19 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos