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Ken777
Posts: 9594
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:08 am

An interesting article in the WaPo by Robert J. Samuelson. Dr. Samuelson is a very Conservative Economist, as Nik will certainly confirm, and is the son of Paul Samuelson who wrote the standard of Economics textbooks.

The article?

The true tax gap could be as high as $12 trillion


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... f3b65300f5


From the article:

When historians examine President Trump’s tax program, they will surely be struck by a large and momentous contradiction. Although the nation faces endless budget deficits — and although the president purports to speak about the future — his tax program does little or nothing to curb long-term deficits and, arguably, might make them worse.


The problem for many is that Samuelson uses basic arithmetic to clearly make his point. That arithmetic shows that this new tac cut for the wealthy will not last.
 
seb146
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:25 pm

Here is another tax win

https://thinkprogress.org/new-republica ... 7e94f099d/

For tRump. BTW, has he divested from his corporations that he will benefit from with this massive money grab?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LMP737
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:24 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Seriously, you all say that you've earned those Medicare and Social Security benefits. So let's just cut-out the middleman. How much of my money do you need?


Reading your posts one would think you're the only one paying taxes. Of course there are others in case you were not aware. And one day when you are on medicare you'll get to hear someone ask how much of their money that YOU need
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:30 am

Tax cut bill goes public as GOP slashes rates for the wealthy, nixes Obamacare penalty, expands child tax credits, dramatically lowers corporate taxes and opens up new Alaska oil drilling

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z51TUs6ahh
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:26 am

Yes, thanks to small Bob and small Mark we have this monstrosity to look forward to. A screwing for the workers once again, a gift for the wealthy once again, the Republicans cannot resist can they? Imagine these two Dickhead Senators after being insulted and maligned about physical characteristics voting to support this Moron in the White House. What a bunch of phonies and scumbags.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:41 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Yes, thanks to small Bob and small Mark we have this monstrosity to look forward to. A screwing for the workers once again, a gift for the wealthy once again, the Republicans cannot resist can they? Imagine these two Dickhead Senators after being insulted and maligned about physical characteristics voting to support this Moron in the White House. What a bunch of phonies and scumbags.


Yes when Trump kept calling Rubio "little Marco" at the debates that had to hurt.

Oh well votes are there and it should be on his desk by the end of next week. About time.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
N867DA
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:47 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Tax cut bill goes public as GOP slashes rates for the wealthy, nixes Obamacare penalty, expands child tax credits, dramatically lowers corporate taxes and opens up new Alaska oil drilling

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z51TUs6ahh


Millions of lower middle class workers across the Deep South and Great Plains rejoice because now nothing stops them from becoming millionaires. This is a huge win for the Republican party, who have been trying to strip wealth and opportunity from middle America in favor of failed trickle-down policies since at least 1980. People like Sean Hannity rail against the estate tax and have convinced the median Alabamian that it will affect then when it may not even affect a single person they have personally met in their lifetime (hint: it's $5.45 million in 2016).

Corporate tax rate needed to be lowered though, provided they get rid of all exemptions and loopholes.
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Ken777
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:13 pm

N867DA wrote:

Corporate tax rate needed to be lowered though, provided they get rid of all exemptions and loopholes.


That is one of the GOP's Biggest Lies. The average corporate effective rate has run around 18%, That was 35% less the exemptions and loopholes.

So let's get real - this tax cut has been a massive Christmas Present for Lobbyists, They have played the game to the max (and pushed their incomes to the max) and those traditional goodies are still there, in in some cases increased.
 
afcjets
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:48 pm

Trump lowers everyone taxes and is despised, yet Obama raised them for the working class and very few people complained.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:44 am

afcjets wrote:
Trump lowers everyone taxes and is despised, yet Obama raised them for the working class and very few people complained.

If "working class" is those who make at least $400,000/year, you're right. Obama raised their taxes.

If by "working class" you mean "middle class", then you should make better use of the internet and remember your history, back to when Obama made the Bush tax cuts permanent for them in 2012.

Your move, but please continue your ignorant Obama bashfest...it's all folks like you seem to do nowadays.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
afcjets
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:29 am

Working class as in anyone who pays payroll tax. From the liberal Washington Post 2014 article "President Obama raised middle-class taxes and lost an election":

"But they can also blame the government -- not just for failing to foster an economy with growing wages, but for cutting their disposable income. It's not the number at the top of the paycheck that we care most about, after all, but the number at the bottom -- the money we have to take home and spend on our lives. In 2013, most Americans had a good bit less money, after adjusting for taxes, than the year before. That's because in 2013, a huge tax increase affecting ordinary workers took effect, raising the employee payroll tax from 4.2 percent to 6.2 percent. A worker earning $50,000 a year saw disposable income decline by $1,000.

It was the first time the payroll tax had increased since 1990, and previous payroll tax hikes had been smaller....

The payroll tax figures as a much bigger source of taxation for the middle class than for the rich. Payroll taxes only apply to the first $117,000 of income. For someone earning $1 million a year, the annual payroll tax would max out at just over $2,000, or 0.2 percent of income. For someone making $20,000 a year, it would equal $400, or a full 2 percent of income.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... -election/
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:34 am

afcjets wrote:
Trump lowers everyone taxes and is despised, yet Obama raised them for the working class and very few people complained.


Trump is doing it at a time when we should be raising rates to pay off the deficit. Obama let the temporary tax cuts expire, and added a tax to help pay for Health Care.

If Trump is truly going for bankruptcy, why not just give away free health care. It seems the GOP has lost all control of their Fiscal responsibilities. This tax cut is nothing more that the GOP paying off their Donors, at the expense of the country.
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:03 am

It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:10 am

afcjets wrote:
liberal Washington Post


:D how cute

Thomas
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:11 pm

The interesting thing is that by denying Republicans a single vote, Democrats have said they want nothing to do with it. So a few years down the road, when Tea Party Republicans suddenly reactivate because of how high the debt and deficit are, they know who to blame.

Hint: not those in blue.

I should bookmark this thread. Tea Party Republicans will remain silent until a Democrat is elected...then it'll be all about the debt and out of control spending.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:40 pm

From the Yahoo! comments : For $1.5 trillion they could give every taxpayer a $60,000 check. Now that would stimulate the economy!

In reality it would probably stimulate inflation, nonetheless if people figure out that this is the average cut over 10 years, and they get a lot less of it, they might not be happy.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:48 pm

Aesma wrote:
From the Yahoo! comments : For $1.5 trillion they could give every taxpayer a $60,000 check. Now that would stimulate the economy!

In reality it would probably stimulate inflation, nonetheless if people figure out that this is the average cut over 10 years, and they get a lot less of it, they might not be happy.


400 USD/month for 10 years should be fine too.

best regards
Thomas
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:33 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
From the Yahoo! comments : For $1.5 trillion they could give every taxpayer a $60,000 check. Now that would stimulate the economy!

In reality it would probably stimulate inflation, nonetheless if people figure out that this is the average cut over 10 years, and they get a lot less of it, they might not be happy.


400 USD/month for 10 years should be fine too.

best regards
Thomas



The math is a bit off.

1.5 Trillion divided by 138 million taxpayers would be around 10,000-11,000 bucks a taxpayer. or about 1200 a year based on current estimates.

However there are some losers and winners in that average.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:13 pm

It's so cute how John Cornyn is blaming Democrats for how this bill is not better. You know...the Democrats they didn't bother or want to invite and whose input was not needed because it was crafted behind closed doors and being passed as reconciliation.

It's almost like they know the bill is seriously flawed...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:04 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
It's so cute how John Cornyn is blaming Democrats for how this bill is not better. You know...the Democrats they didn't bother or want to invite and whose input was not needed because it was crafted behind closed doors and being passed as reconciliation.

It's almost like they know the bill is seriously flawed...


They know it is flawed, but at this point, they need all the bribes (er donations)from the rich folks to fund their future candidacy in the GOP.
They would pass of Shit as Filet Mignon to appease those donors, and that is exactly what this bill is .

Personally I'll take the tax brake. Looking like a great one for me. It's that short term psychological excitement.

However just as most folks enjoy a night of gambling and drinking, the aftermath is probably going to be bad and full of regret.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:37 am

casinterest wrote:
Personally I'll take the tax brake. Looking like a great one for me.

Oh heck. Who wouldn't? I just don't want Republicans coming after me later in the century with "we're a debt-ridden nation and we must take away more tax benefits".

I already posted an idea they had: touching the 401k tax advantages. And the Roth is only one pen stroke away from losing its perks as well (ie. it was created by law and can be modified or eliminated by law as well).

Based on calculators all over I stand to gain about $400 on average for a tax cut, enough to put towards a bit of home improvement. I'll find out later next year if the IRS decides to enact the new tax scheme immediately.

Thankfully all other deductions/benefits stay in place (deducting mortgage interest, HSA, 401k, etc.)...for now.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:02 am

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/sena ... 00914.html

Ah yes, probably all an accident, fake news that Bob Corker sold his vote for this. Who would believe that of a man who was insulted over and over by Trump and left out to dry by his fellow Republicans, yet he changes his mind and supports something that will enrich himself and his antagonist Trump. A man of character, no doubt about it.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:12 am

einsteinboricua wrote:

Thankfully all other deductions/benefits stay in place (deducting mortgage interest, HSA, 401k, etc.)...for now.


Well the Mortgage Interest looks like less of a break for now. For me the standard deduction will cover what I used to claim in itemized.


The GOP is just not displaying fiscal responsibility at all here. None of these congressional members will survive the walk of shame once the advertised revenue growth fails to materialize after bending over for the donors.
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tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:09 am

casinterest wrote:
The GOP is just not displaying fiscal responsibility at all here. None of these congressional members will survive the walk of shame once the advertised revenue growth fails to materialize after bending over for the donors.


Well, they some are on record saying that they "deliver" the tax cuts for future payments by those donors. It is beyond me how there is no major corruption investigation going on right now.

best regards
Thomas
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The GOP is just not displaying fiscal responsibility at all here. None of these congressional members will survive the walk of shame once the advertised revenue growth fails to materialize after bending over for the donors.


Well, they some are on record saying that they "deliver" the tax cuts for future payments by those donors. It is beyond me how there is no major corruption investigation going on right now.

best regards
Thomas

Oh Thomas...you're so naive. The swamp IS being drained...and replaced with even filthier swamp water and creatures.

Yes, the average American stands to get a tax cut, but there's a reason no one (except GOP politicians) is clamoring for this to become law: they know it favors the wealthy and corporations far more than it does Joe Average.

And many politicians have candidly expressed why they want this: their donors (who are wealthy) will close their checkbooks if they don't deliver.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:07 pm

NPR article showing that the percentage of tax breaks aren't even close to being equal for income levels. The more income you have the higher PERCENTAGE AND HIGHER in dollar the tax cut will be.

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/19/57175489 ... ddle-class

This charts above prove that the GOP is not concerned at all with driving the economy. Rather they are concerned with turning us into the next failed country. .
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par13del
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:52 pm

The only thing I can contribute to this thread is the lack of fiscal responsibility, everyone talks about the 1.2 trillion gap, no one talks about how much in that 1.2 trillion which most say needs to be made up is waste, somehow every penny spent by government is money well spent.
My big question would be, could a spending cut have been included in this tax bill or must that come later, how much has the sequester saved the tax payers?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:01 pm

par13del wrote:
The only thing I can contribute to this thread is the lack of fiscal responsibility, everyone talks about the 1.2 trillion gap, no one talks about how much in that 1.2 trillion which most say needs to be made up is waste, somehow every penny spent by government is money well spent.
My big question would be, could a spending cut have been included in this tax bill or must that come later, how much has the sequester saved the tax payers?

Spending cuts on entitlement are to come if you believe Republican congress members.(social Security, Medicare). If you listen to Trump, we are going to get more spending. ( infrastructure, Military).

I see no way for Republicans to reform spending in any meaningful way. The deficit will skyrocket.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
I see no way for Republicans to reform spending in any meaningful way. The deficit will skyrocket.

Which means that if the GOP still controls the government beyond 2021 they'll tackle entitlements and social programs, using the debt and deficit as an excuse. Oh, and maybe throw in another tax cut because of reasons while boosting defense.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Mir
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:12 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I see no way for Republicans to reform spending in any meaningful way. The deficit will skyrocket.

Which means that if the GOP still controls the government beyond 2021 they'll tackle entitlements and social programs, using the debt and deficit as an excuse. Oh, and maybe throw in another tax cut because of reasons while boosting defense.


It's doubtful they will control the government that long, but they will at least get to hand the Democrats a massive budget deficit which they can then blame on them. They know they're on their way out, so they figure they might as well salt the earth while they're doing it. Except that there are real people living on that earth, their own countrymen, who are going to get screwed. It's disgraceful.

When your only legislative "win" is a bill that a significant majority of the country hates, that doesn't do what you say it's going to do, and that personally enriches those voting for it, that's not a very good commentary on your ability to govern. This country deserves a far better version of the GOP than we have right now.
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:15 pm

This bill already looks like reverse Robin Hood. If you add (or rather remove) money going to poor people (social programs) it's going to look even worse.
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:00 pm

House has to revote.
The Dem Challenges to some violations of the Byrd amendment have succeeded. Some provisions need to be removed from the bill. thus a revote.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:49 am

Mir wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I see no way for Republicans to reform spending in any meaningful way. The deficit will skyrocket.

Which means that if the GOP still controls the government beyond 2021 they'll tackle entitlements and social programs, using the debt and deficit as an excuse. Oh, and maybe throw in another tax cut because of reasons while boosting defense.


It's doubtful they will control the government that long,

All Trump needs next year is either a terrorist attack, a massive natural disaster, or an attack by an adversary (NK being the likely candidate) to shore up support and mitigate any losses in the midterms. You could see a House with a significantly reduced majority (say...225-210) and a Senate with an expanded majority (55-43-2), allowing GOP control of the levers for 2 more years.

That's why I have to look towards 2021, when the tax cuts have already been woven into daily life by either granting the promised tax cuts with the economic boost or asking a cut in social spending with the economy doing as it's doing right now, with no noticeable effect on Joe Average (no workplace improvements, no salary/wage increases, etc.).

The 2020 Senate map favors Democrats in a few states (IA (somewhat), CO, NC, and maybe ME, TX and GA). The GOP's solid pickup is AL. In the House, anything goes. So we could be looking up until 2022 when party fatigue reaches a climax and a wave brings Democrats to power for good.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:34 am

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first- ... my-n831231

I am not surprised about the results of this poll, but I sure hope it is true. It just might mean that the people are not as stupid as the Republicans seem to think. I know I am not. I believe in that old saying, time will tell.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:56 am

When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.

Total BS on these polls and the endless doomsaying about American workers loosing on this Tax Reform Bill. It will carry us into Victory in the 2018 Mid-Terms and the 2020 elections. And once Trump gets the Supreme loaded with other than Judicial Activists, then America will be on the road to really being Great Again, in spite of the Globalists and their enablers in this country and abroad.

#TooMuchWinning

The Future looks bright for Americans!!
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EA CO AS
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:12 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.


This.

The average American votes based on their perception of reality, and when voters have seen the equivalent of a pay bump thanks to lower taxes, coupled with what will hopefully continue to be solid economic growth, pay increases, and low unemployment, they'll remember that at the polls, despite whatever hand-wringing is taking place by the Democrats or their willing accomplices in the mainstream media.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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ltbewr
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:24 am

This 'tax reform' is just disgusting and makes me seethe with anger. I hope all the R's next year get challenged in their elections, get harassed by their voters back home and get voted out enough to give the (little better) Democrats enough wins to take majorities in the House and Senate in 2018 and 2020 and then reverse some of the worst parts of this perverse bill and get Trump under control.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:49 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.

Total BS on these polls and the endless doomsaying about American workers loosing on this Tax Reform Bill. It will carry us into Victory in the 2018 Mid-Terms and the 2020 elections. And once Trump gets the Supreme loaded with other than Judicial Activists, then America will be on the road to really being Great Again, in spite of the Globalists and their enablers in this country and abroad.

#TooMuchWinning

The Future looks bright for Americans!!


The term Globalist from the mouths of Republican supporters is hilarious. I might ask, who opened up China who now challenges us because we made them wealthy.? Who supported the sending of our industries to every spot in the world for cheap labor to kill unions, why I think Republicans and corporations did that is who, and it continues under Trump the Rump. They laugh at him while shoveling money to our corrupt congress. You folks are deniers of reality, Trump purchased all his products from China to save a buck just like all the corporations.

Our Republican supporting South and West watched the Southern Border and the South and West get buried in immigrants from Mexico and elsewhere for cheap labor. The wealthy needed Nannies, gardeners, house cleaners, hotel room cleaners and they supported illegal immigrants with open arms through the US Chamber of Commerce, the biggest advocates of cheap labor in this country and I would hazard a guess most of them are Republican Supporters. What a frigging joke you folks are. laughable if not so tragic for the US worker and our economy.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:56 am

EA CO AS wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.


This.

The average American votes based on their perception of reality, and when voters have seen the equivalent of a pay bump thanks to lower taxes, coupled with what will hopefully continue to be solid economic growth, pay increases, and low unemployment, they'll remember that at the polls, despite whatever hand-wringing is taking place by the Democrats or their willing accomplices in the mainstream media.



I want both of you to go look into recent history. Tell me what happened 7 years after the 2001 Republican Tax Cuts. So much "winning" with those tax cuts. They started the great recession. . And I want you to bookmark this post, And refer back to it every time you try to blame democrats for a deficit.

This tax bill is nothing but dishonorable theft by the cowards and morons in the GOP. .
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:59 am

EA CO AS wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.


This.

The average American votes based on their perception of reality, and when voters have seen the equivalent of a pay bump thanks to lower taxes, coupled with what will hopefully continue to be solid economic growth, pay increases, and low unemployment, they'll remember that at the polls, despite whatever hand-wringing is taking place by the Democrats or their willing accomplices in the mainstream media.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Main Stream Media, another ridiculous argument and term from the Republican Clones, deniers of reality, followers of the big Buffoon, the swamp drainer, the liar of all time, the egotist extraordinaire, the Octopus who brags about grabbing P****, the golfer on our money and time who said he would work so hard for the US. Laughable once again and rather pathetic. Pay raises for the masses, hilarious. The O! so beautiful healthcare plan for the downtrodden of the US, pathetic for anyone to believe this big phony.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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akiss20
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:00 am

EA CO AS wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.


This.

The average American votes based on their perception of reality, and when voters have seen the equivalent of a pay bump thanks to lower taxes, coupled with what will hopefully continue to be solid economic growth, pay increases, and low unemployment, they'll remember that at the polls, despite whatever hand-wringing is taking place by the Democrats or their willing accomplices in the mainstream media.


Didn't really work that way for the Reagan or Bush tax cuts. What makes you think fourth time is the charm?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wi ... bably-not/
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EA CO AS
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:06 am

akiss20 wrote:
Didn't really work that way for the Reagan or Bush tax cuts. What makes you think fourth time is the charm?/


Actually, it did. Again, note that I specifically stated that it's the perception of the voters that will matter, and under both Reagan and Bush (41), voters perceived "good times" thanks to their tax policies and kept them in office....right up until Bush 41 reneged on his "Read my lips - no new taxes" promise and was voted out by the voters in favor of Bill Clinton, who ran on a key phrase - "It's the economy, stupid."

The Bush tax increases weren't solely responsible for the recession of the early 90s, but that didn't matter - the perception was that they were at least a contributing factor.
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akiss20
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:18 am

EA CO AS wrote:
akiss20 wrote:
Didn't really work that way for the Reagan or Bush tax cuts. What makes you think fourth time is the charm?/


Actually, it did. Again, note that I specifically stated that it's the perception of the voters that will matter, and under both Reagan and Bush (41), voters perceived "good times" thanks to their tax policies and kept them in office....right up until Bush 41 reneged on his "Read my lips - no new taxes" promise and was voted out by the voters in favor of Bill Clinton, who ran on a key phrase - "It's the economy, stupid."

The Bush tax increases weren't solely responsible for the recession of the early 90s, but that didn't matter - the perception was that they were at least a contributing factor.


The source I cited indicated that the specific notion that the tax reform benefits primarily the wealthy increased over time. Currently the narrative from talking heads and the GOP is that the favoribility rating of the tax bill will increase in time. That simply didn't happen with the Reagan and Bush tax cuts. The article also outlines relatively data driven arguments as to why passing the tax bill likely won't help the GOP much in the midterms. Did you even bother to read it?
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
salttee
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:36 am

"With a corporate rate of just twenty per cent, and a big new break for proprietors of unincorporated businesses and certain types of partnerships, the new code will contain enormous incentives for tax-driven restructurings, creative accounting, and outright fraud. Every tax adviser and scammer in the country will be looking for ways to reclassify regular salary income as favored types of business income.

For tax accountants, the first step will be to see how many of their well-to-do clients could feasibly convert themselves into corporations.

“Taxpayers will be able to shield their labor income from tax by simply setting up a corporation and having their income accrue in the form of corporate profits. . . . Income that would have been taxed at the high individual rates is instead taxed at the low corporate rate,” an updated report from a group of tax experts at New York University, the University of Chicago, and other places noted on Monday. Investment income is also taxed at the lower rate. “There is really no downside to this game,” the report said.

For some high earners, another alternative will be to go freelance and set up their own businesses, reporting their profits as “pass through” income on their personal tax returns. If they do this, many of them will be able write off twenty per cent of their taxable income, thus reducing the new top rate from thirty-seven per cent to 29.6 per cent, and the new second-top rate from thirty-five per cent to twenty-eight per cent. This “game is clear,” the report said. “Don’t be John Doe, employee. Be John Doe, independent contractor (or partner in an LLC, receiving a profit share rather than wages).”

But not all unincorporated businesses will be treated equally under the new code. Law partners will be excluded from the twenty-per-cent write-off, as will doctors who co-own medical practices. The owners of other firms that provide a “specified service” whose principal asset is their “reputation or skill” won’t be eligible, either. At least, they won’t be until they start engaging in some restructuring shenanigans."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colu ... gwNzI1OQS2
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:59 am

WarRI1 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.


This.

The average American votes based on their perception of reality, and when voters have seen the equivalent of a pay bump thanks to lower taxes, coupled with what will hopefully continue to be solid economic growth, pay increases, and low unemployment, they'll remember that at the polls, despite whatever hand-wringing is taking place by the Democrats or their willing accomplices in the mainstream media.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Main Stream Media, another ridiculous argument and term from the Republican Clones, deniers of reality, followers of the big Buffoon,.


And there you have the biggest problem. The Trump voter will just delude themselves into believing they got a tax cut, because Jesus Donald Christ told them so. They swallowed the other 1600+ lies hook, line and sinker as well.

best regards
Thomas
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EA CO AS
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:00 am

akiss20 wrote:
Did you even bother to read it?


I did, yes, and you are citing something irrelevant and completely missing the point that at the time of the presidential elections in 1980, 1984, 1988, and 1992, the first three elections favored a candidate who either proposed tax cuts, or continued them, with the perception by the voters that the economy would improve (1980) or continue to get stronger (84, 88) as a result. Your article cites polls taken RECENTLY, not of voters in 80/84/88/92.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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NIKV69
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:12 am

tommy1808 wrote:

And there you have the biggest problem. The Trump voter will just delude themselves into believing they got a tax cut, because Jesus Donald Christ told them so. They swallowed the other 1600+ lies hook, line and sinker as well.

best regards
Thomas


Yes I know, Joy Reid is railing saying we are going to lose everything. Social Security, Medicare, health care etc. Other than the toxic rhetoric and fearmongering history will decide.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:12 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.


US companies are sitting on trillions of cash and the US is at or already beyond full employment. Economics 101 tells us that wages should currently be exploding, but they don´t.
But the world isn´t run by first semester rules. Before a US employer spends 10k USD on a US worker in raises, he can much, much better take that money to relocate the Job to somewhere cheaper, pretty much the same way they did with every other tax cut. The US lost 10% of its manufacturing jobs directly after the Reagan tax cuts. If it happens that quickly again, there may be a million or so blue color workers unemployed and pissed of just in time for midterms.
But hey, the good news is there aren´t that many of those jobs left in the US to be exported, since only ~7% of your labor force still work in production (compare that with 20% in Germany).

best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
[Yes I know, Joy Reid is railing saying we are going to lose everything. Social Security, Medicare, health care etc. Other than the toxic rhetoric and fearmongering history will decide.


The three trillion shortfall or so in federal tax revenue from this most corrupt of all legislation, with Republicans being on record that the bill is passed for future payments, will have to be cut somewhere else. Where can you currently cut 300 Billion per year? Or, since interests rates are rising, the hundreds of billions per year extra to serve the debt?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:59 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
When Americans start seeing more of their paycheck from less Federal deductions, that will be the first step. When Americans start getting pay raises, that will be the second step.

When Social Security and other social programs are cut because the debt is spiraling out of control, that will be the 3rd step. When taxes go up because they sunset, that's the 4th step.

With regards to your second step, I'd be eager to see how many companies go right ahead and give their employees significant wage increases enough to say "you know what? this isn't that bad after all". Of course, if you're a stockholder, you stand a better chance at benefiting from this than the average employee: you'd get dividends and see your portfolio go up. Jane and John Doe at customer service will probably still work for $7.25/hr.
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