DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:59 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.


Snopes isn't an authority on anything. And when comparing administrations, make sure you use the same time interval. The article compares two years of the Obama administration to eight years of the Bush administration.

As typical for shoddy Snopes pieces, the article is also devoid of any context why the various administrations spent what they did.


well, they spent it on tax cuts, started multiple wars, then crashed the economy. wash rinse repeat.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 9396
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:04 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Trickle down economics has become (has always been ?) a religion, you need faith, proofs are optional.


And you need willful ignorance to dispute the superior economic growth and widespread prosperity that is enjoyed by people of all income levels in low-tax, free-market societies.


Define low tax. Is the US going from high tax to low tax ? Or was it already low tax and needed lower taxes ? How low will it go ?

Define free market. Is Chapter 11 free market ? Is repelling NAFTA free market ? The 220% tax on the C-series maybe ?

I see prosperity in countries with good healthcare and good education, and see nothing in this bill advancing those. One way the US gets around the problem is by importing talent, but apparently that's not going to continue.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Mir
Posts: 19395
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:40 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Wow! Look at all these deficit hawks come out of the woodwork! Just for consistency's sake, can you take a moment to condemn the Obama administration for nearly doubling the national debt in 8 years and adding massive new spending programs? That should be an easy, unoffensive request.


Sorry, can't do that, because the national debt number isn't as important as the deficit, which shrank under Obama.

DfwRevolution wrote:
We don't yet have a final bill that has passed conference committee, but many of the bill's particulars are outstanding:


Outstanding? Really?

DfwRevolution wrote:
- Corporate tax rate now competitive with most developed nations


Our effective corporate tax rate has been competitive for a long time thanks to various deductions and loopholes.

DfwRevolution wrote:
- Cap on SALT deductions


Otherwise known as the "let's get the Democrats to pay for it" provision. People in states that have higher state and local taxes because they don't get as much help from the federal government are going to have to subsidize the red states that get away with low state and local taxes by sticking their snout in the federal trough. Screw that. You want a tax cut? Pay for it yourself.

DfwRevolution wrote:
- Elimination of AMT


A windfall for the rich. Do we really need to be putting higher taxes on education to pay for it?

DfwRevolution wrote:
- Elimination of Obamacare mandate


Which will result in the poor and the sick not having healthcare and the healthcare system going into a death spiral.

DfwRevolution wrote:
- Elimination or reduction of estate tax


Another windfall, this time for the mega-rich. Teachers won't be able to deduct the expense of buying supplies for their students anymore, but I guess that's a small price to pay to make sure a few well-off kids can inherit their parents' billions, right?

If you think those are outstanding, I really don't know what to tell you. This is a huge windfall for corporations and the mega-rich, and it's paid for on the backs of low- and middle-class people. It would be one thing if it were revenue-neutral or even revenue-positive, but when it costs $1.5 trillion dollars? Imagine the sort of benefit to the country if we put that money into infrastructure or education - that's the sort of government spending that makes sense. Instead it just gets to make a few peoples' bank accounts look nicer.
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Tugger
Posts: 7045
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:06 am

So if I have the the information correctly Trump has lied again?

“The rich will not be gaining at all with this plan,” [...] “If they have to go higher, they’ll go higher.”
http://fortune.com/2017/09/13/donald-tr ... americans/

"Our framework includes our explicit commitment that tax reform will protect low-income and middle-income households, not the wealthy and well-connected,” [...] ", and it’s not good for me. Believe me."
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... ch/541584/

Or did I miss something?

The top tax bracket should have simply been raised one or two points, that would have solved the whole thing (the the Republicans and their fundraisers/backers could never have swallowed that). People don't understand that the top must be raised if what Trump committed to is to be.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:10 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
On the personal income tax side, these reforms will lower or flatten the tax burden for all Americans.

The key thing to know is that you support a stronger centralized, federal controlled system. I did not think you did but OK, you do.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15961
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:03 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
Wow! Look at all these deficit hawks come out of the woodwork! Just for consistency's sake, can you take a moment to condemn the Obama administration for nearly doubling the national debt in 8 years and adding massive new spending programs? That should be an easy, unoffensive request.

Uh y'all were the ones squawking about it for eight years, but then again I think anyone with a working synapse knew the instant the GOP got into power they'd blow the deficit out of the water like they always do. We've seen this play before, so I can only assume you have the memory of a goldfish, or you're 9 years old.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.


Snopes isn't an authority on anything. And when comparing administrations, make sure you use the same time interval. The article compares two years of the Obama administration to eight years of the Bush administration.

As typical for shoddy Snopes pieces, the article is also devoid of any context why the various administrations spent what they did.


well, they spent it on tax cuts, started multiple wars, then crashed the economy. wash rinse repeat.

That is called job creation :rotfl:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:12 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
question? did they really take out the foreign airlines tax bill at the last minute? someone said they did.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/senate-tax ... 1511784001

Probably because someone realized the airline taxing comes under bilateral treaties, and can't be changed within a "simple" tax bill.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 4262
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:27 am

I'm still waiting to hear from the few supporters of this administration/bill what exactly the country is winning here, or how they believe this will ultimately be a good thing for the American society as a whole.

What I see is the usual Republican bamboozle. There is nothing in this bill that would lead to an improved American society or that fixes any of the issues facing said society currently, such as increasing income inequality, the growing working-poor class, the increasingly unaffordable cost of healthcare and the debt. In fact, it makes every single of these issues worse.

Such a stimulus to the economy, like the massive deregulation and tax cuts, at the cost of increased debt, would only be justified during an economical downturn. The current period of economical growth should be used to help reinforce the lower socio-economical classes (read: consumers) in order to better prepare the country for the next downturn.
As it happens, and as it has happened under the Bush years, these measure will only precipitate the next downturn, and will likely make it much worse than the last.

Helping make the rich richer and the corporations make more profits will only help a minority of wealthy investors. It has been repeatedly proven that increased corporate profits are mostly not used to reinvest into the employees, but instead distributed to shareholders, used to fund acquisitions and to fund war chests sitting in offshore structures.
As the wealthy get wealthier, the wage gap increases. More of the country's wealth is distributed to a lower number a people, leading to a reduced overall disposable income for a larger number of people who form the vast majority of consumers in an economy that principally runs on domestic consumption...
Add to that the increased automation of jobs and digitalization of the retail industry, the increased debt (the cost of which will have to be borne by all Americans somehow, someday), the massive banking sector deregulation (the very same thing that led to the GFC), and you have a recipe for a nasty economic disaster.

The real goal behind this bill is clear to see, and is emphasized by the hurried and secretive way it was pushed through, its lack of popular support and the general behavior of its backers. The wealthy wanted a tax cut to make more money, regardless of any long term consequences on the country and fellow Americans, and they got it by aggressively lobbying the GOP.

As it stands, I'd be more inclined to call the USA a plutocracy than a democracy.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:48 am

seb146 wrote:
The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.

You know full well that the Snopes survey covered only the first two years of the Obama administration.

Why didn't you have the decency do find the amount of increase for his full 8-year administration and report the truth?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
seb146
Posts: 15677
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:31 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.

You know full well that the Snopes survey covered only the first two years of the Obama administration.

Why didn't you have the decency do find the amount of increase for his full 8-year administration and report the truth?


You mean the continuing resolutions Republicans had to pass because they knew they could not pass crap budgets because of Obama?

So tell us, Bob, what was the debt increase under Obama?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:27 am

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.

You know full well that the Snopes survey covered only the first two years of the Obama administration.

Why didn't you have the decency do find the amount of increase for his full 8-year administration and report the truth?


You mean the continuing resolutions Republicans had to pass because they knew they could not pass crap budgets because of Obama?

So tell us, Bob, what was the debt increase under Obama?

That was something you were supposed to find out before your first post of Snopes. Go do it now.

You are the one who often proclaims Google is Your Friend.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:43 pm

Francoflier wrote:
As it stands, I'd be more inclined to call the USA a plutocracy than a democracy.


They'll squeeze your entire post and just respond to that, so I'll do it before them : the USA is not supposed to be a democracy but a republic !

Whatever that is supposed to mean.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 14255
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
You are the one who often proclaims Google is Your Friend.


Image
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5883
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:28 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Wow! Look at all these deficit hawks come out of the woodwork! Just for consistency's sake, can you take a moment to condemn the Obama administration for nearly doubling the national debt in 8 years and adding massive new spending programs? That should be an easy, unoffensive request.
\\
Not even close to correct.

The Deficit was exploded by the collapse of the economy in 2008 under GWB. Remember those 2001 tax cuts that lead to 5-6 years of irrational exuberance that then caused the housing market to collapse and also nearly caused a depression?

Probably not, because the GOP has a lot of Amnesia when it comes to them causing something to go wrong down the road.

Do you recall why the deficit was so huge ? Probably not. Amnesia again? Look at the difference in revenue in 2007-2009, where the government HAD to pay out unemployment and stimulate the economy to prevent a collapse. That is where the deficit came from in 2008-2016. The government had to pay for the recovery when businesses couldn't do it themselves.

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s- ... ue-3305762
Tax revenue 2009-2017
FY 2017 (est.) - $3.460 trillion.
FY 2016 - $3.268 trillion.
FY 2015 - $3.250 trillion.
FY 2014 - $3.021 trillion.
FY 2013 - $2.775 trillion.
FY 2012 - $2.45 trillion.
FY 2011 - $2.3 trillion.
FY 2010 - $2.16 trillion.
FY 2009 - $2.1 trillion.
FY 2008 - $2.52 trillion.
FY 2007 - $2.57 trillion.
FY 2006 - $2.4 trillion.
FY 2005 - $2.15 trillion.
FY 2004 - $1.88 trillion.
FY 2003 - $1.72 trillion.
FY 2002 - $1.85 trillion.
FY 2001 - $1.99 trilion.
FY 2000 - $2.03 trillion.
FY 1999 - $1.82 trillion.

Now the GOP want to pay back all their donors for all those bribes(donations) they got in the election, and they are going to expand the deficit again. But not to grow the economy. The economy is already growing and doing well. Rather the GOP is just paying off bribes that will put the US further in debt during a good economy. What will these GOP cowards do when we have a real recession caused by their next war, or by the effects of this callous move?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
seb146
Posts: 15677
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:17 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
You know full well that the Snopes survey covered only the first two years of the Obama administration.

Why didn't you have the decency do find the amount of increase for his full 8-year administration and report the truth?


You mean the continuing resolutions Republicans had to pass because they knew they could not pass crap budgets because of Obama?

So tell us, Bob, what was the debt increase under Obama?

That was something you were supposed to find out before your first post of Snopes. Go do it now.

You are the one who often proclaims Google is Your Friend.


So, people make claims with zero links and zero proof and they get a pass. I make a claim and provide a link and I am the bad guy. Typical.

You righties want a different link?

http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/19/news/ec ... index.html

The next to last line:

keep in mind that Obama can't take any financial steps without Congress' approval. And Republicans controlled the House for six years of his term and the Senate for two years.


So, while Obama was president, Congress increased spending. Spending bills must originate in the House, which was controlled by Republicans for six years under Obama. Let that sink in.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9008
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:31 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Since you're mocking us for being concerned about debt, I assume you will not be a deficit hawk when Democrats return to power, right? I mean...you don't care this time around so you're not being consistent.


Mir wrote:
Sorry, can't do that, because the national debt number isn't as important as the deficit, which shrank under Obama.


MaverickM11 wrote:
Uh y'all were the ones squawking about it for eight years, but then again I think anyone with a working synapse knew the instant the GOP got into power they'd blow the deficit out of the water like they always do. We've seen this play before, so I can only assume you have the memory of a goldfish, or you're 9 years old.


casinterest wrote:
The Deficit was exploded by the collapse of the economy in 2008 under GWB. Remember those 2001 tax cuts that lead to 5-6 years of irrational exuberance that then caused the housing market to collapse and also nearly caused a depression?


I've already said that I don't like the tax package increasing the deficit. I didn't like deficits during the Bush or Obama administrations. I don't like deficits now. I won't like deficits in the future. I have been totally consistent.

My observation is that each of you are conditional in your deficit hawkishness. I've offered an olive branch for you to prove me wrong. Just say that you didn't like the Obama administration doubling the national debt and running huge deficits. It's a simple and harmless request. Why is that so hard for you all to say?

einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
The only scenario where taxes increase on any income group is if the rates sunset in 2027. There's a zero percent chance that will be allowed to happen. The effects of this bill would actually make the U.S. tax code more progressive and shift more tax burden to high-income earners.
It's interesting that you want liberals to know about the perils of making predictions but you don't apply them to yourself. Zero percent chance? Just exactly how did you come up with that?

And here's the interesting part: if these truly are tax cuts for all Americans, why is there a sunset provision on them but not for corporations?


The sunset provision on personal income was necessary to meet parliamentary rules. Each time a tax reform package has included a sunset provision, the rates have been extended for low income earners. There's no political will to raise taxes on low income earners.

einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
On the corporate tax side, these reforms will make American. businesses more competitive to the direct benefit of American workers. On the personal income tax side, these reforms will lower or flatten the tax burden for all Americans. These are pro-growth, pro-family, and pro-individual policies that are fair and will force further reforms at the state and local level. It isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have today.

Oh...that is so cute. Thinking that business will become more competitive because of these cuts. You know what they'll do with them? Pay down debt, give out bigger bonuses to executives, and buy back shares. But you don't have to believe me. You can read a source or even watch it here.


Good. That means more money will flow to U.S. households of all income levels.

einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevoluton wrote:
Snopes isn't an authority on anything. And when comparing administrations, make sure you use the same time interval. The article compares two years of the Obama administration to eight years of the Bush administration.

As typical for shoddy Snopes pieces, the article is also devoid of any context why the various administrations spent what they did.

In other words: "I don't like that my views are being proved wrong so I will question any source that does not validate my view and dismiss it as fake or liberal".


Snopes is an online myth busting website that traffics in urban legends. They have no pretense of objectivity nor are they subject matter experts on anything. In this day and age, discerning the credibility of a source is an important skill.

Mir wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
- Corporate tax rate now competitive with most developed nations


Our effective corporate tax rate has been competitive for a long time thanks to various deductions and loopholes.


U.S. corporations must staff huge tax departments and incur massive compliance costs to get a competitive effective rate given our high statutory rates. And even then, deductions and credits aren't consistently available so various firms - even within the same industry - end up with wildly different tax rates.

Does anyone seriously object to lower statutory rates with fewer loopholes and deductions? How is that possibly objectionable?

Mir wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
- Cap on SALT deductions


Otherwise known as the "let's get the Democrats to pay for it" provision. People in states that have higher state and local taxes because they don't get as much help from the federal government are going to have to subsidize the red states that get away with low state and local taxes by sticking their snout in the federal trough. Screw that. You want a tax cut? Pay for it yourself.


That is a total lie and fabrication. Blue states don't have high taxes because "they don't get as much help from the federal government." Blue states have higher taxes because they have hugely expensive social programs. New York spends $20,000 per child on education. Texas spends about $8,300 per child. That is entirely a local decision and neither state receives much federal funding for primary education. If you want opulent social programs, then you pay for it yourself.

Your federal tax rate should not depend on your state of residence. Period!

Mir wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
- Elimination of AMT


A windfall for the rich. Do we really need to be putting higher taxes on education to pay for it?


Good. More money flows to U.S. households.

There are no "taxes on higher education."

Mir wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
- Elimination or reduction of estate tax


Another windfall, this time for the mega-rich. Teachers won't be able to deduct the expense of buying supplies for their students anymore, but I guess that's a small price to pay to make sure a few well-off kids can inherit their parents' billions, right?


The estate tax is a punitive measure on assets that were already accumulated after-tax. It's tax on tax. What special claim do teachers have on the assets other people have accumulated?

Tugger wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
On the personal income tax side, these reforms will lower or flatten the tax burden for all Americans.

The key thing to know is that you support a stronger centralized, federal controlled system. I did not think you did but OK, you do.


Not at all. There is no logical basis for you to reach that conclusion. I'm happy to let New Yorkers spend like crazy. They just shouldn't get a federal tax deduction for doing so.

Your federal tax rate should not depend on your state of residence. Period!
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:04 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
This tax reform package allows people to keep more of what they earn. Everything else is just details. I personally wish the revenue impact was deficit neutral or deficit reducing, but there are major wins in this reform benefiting all Americans that are worth it.
- Cap on SALT deductions
- Elimination of AMT
- Elimination of Obamacare mandate
- Increased standard deduction


May be true in generic case. But - the most people who will be hurt are remainders of the middle class in high tax, high living costs cities - New York City, San Francisco, LA. Those who are perceived as "rich" and are really well overtaxed.

Speaking of Obamacare - with these premiums here in NYC ($500-700/mo for a bronze plan, around $1000/mo for a usable Silver/Gold with a good network) will fall apart itself. For me (relatively young and healthy non-smoking male) it's cheaper for me to pay the fine, and get a non-compliant much cheaper policy, with age discrimination and medical underwriting. One of those, with a good BlueShield network, I found for around $400/mo, with a reasonable deductible and full coverage. If you are young and have no pre-existing conditions, you don't really care.

I am sure over time, young and healthy population, who were supposed to subsidize Obamacare, will be finding such non-compliant products, and ways around the fine. And Obamacare will be for older and sicker folks, with corresponding premiums.

Overall, I like Obamacare idea, but it's just underdone. They should have put proper subsidies for lower income sicker people entering the system, so that premiums are reasonable for younger people. Else - if course it's doomed to fail.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5883
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:19 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The Deficit was exploded by the collapse of the economy in 2008 under GWB. Remember those 2001 tax cuts that lead to 5-6 years of irrational exuberance that then caused the housing market to collapse and also nearly caused a depression?


I've already said that I don't like the tax package increasing the deficit. I didn't like deficits during the Bush or Obama administrations. I don't like deficits now. I won't like deficits in the future. I have been totally consistent.

My observation is that each of you are conditional in your deficit hawkishness. I've offered an olive branch for you to prove me wrong. Just say that you didn't like the Obama administration doubling the national debt and running huge deficits. It's a simple and harmless request. Why is that so hard for you all to say?


How am I conditional? I am not a deficit hawk when it comes to the federal government doing what it is supposed to do. Provide for all people of this country. So I fully supported the deficit spending during a point when Businesses ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT do it. This deficit spending is a giveaway to the rich, and it is a sacrifice to the well being of this country in the current and future ability to provide for the people during a recession. We might as well start singing the chinese national anthem and russian national anthem if you are open to mortgaging our future to the riich during an economic high point. You probably already do.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Mir
Posts: 19395
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:47 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Your federal tax rate should not depend on your state of residence. Period!


When each state gets as much in taxes back from the government as they put in (or at least an equal percentage), then I will agree. Not before.

DfwRevolution wrote:
There are no "taxes on higher education."


Scholarships will be taxed now. That will make higher education unaffordable for many low-income people. I'm not opposed to getting rid of the AMT in principle, but it only affects a small number of people, and how it's paid for in this bill will be disastrous to the economy long-term.

DfwRevolution wrote:
The estate tax is a punitive measure on assets that were already accumulated after-tax. It's tax on tax. What special claim do teachers have on the assets other people have accumulated?


The estate tax is not a punitive measure, it is a tax on income.

As far as a "special claim" that teachers have, if that's true why do we allow businesses to write off their expenses when it comes to paying their tax? What special claim do they have on assets that they're purchasing from other people?
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9008
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:59 pm

Mir wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Your federal tax rate should not depend on your state of residence. Period!


When each state gets as much in taxes back from the government as they put in (or at least an equal percentage), then I will agree. Not before.


You're creating an impossible standard that is incompatible with the federal government's charter. The purpose of the federal government is to fund those programs that benefit us all as American citizens regardless of our state citizenship. By your logic, Americans living in Montana should get less military protection than Americans living in New York because Montana has a smaller tax base in both relative and absolute terms. The Constitution explicitly rejects that notion.

We benefit equally. We should pay equally.

Mir wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
There are no "taxes on higher education."


Scholarships will be taxed now. That will make higher education unaffordable for many low-income people. I'm not opposed to getting rid of the AMT in principle, but it only affects a small number of people, and how it's paid for in this bill will be disastrous to the economy long-term.


Scholarships are not taxed.

Tuition waivers are taxed. Those are way different. Tuition waivers are largely granted to graduate students on the condition that they perform work for a university (TA, lab techs, etc.). That is plainly compensation and should be taxed.

Also, because federal grant money can be used to fund tuition waivers, universities have been using them to suck billions of dollars from research budgets into general administration coffers. Universities raise grad student tuition and then issue waivers using research grant money. The grad student never sees the money but now the university can spend the money on anything rather than its earmarked purpose. That needs to end.

Mir wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
The estate tax is a punitive measure on assets that were already accumulated after-tax. It's tax on tax. What special claim do teachers have on the assets other people have accumulated?


The estate tax is not a punitive measure, it is a tax on income.


Wrong. The estate tax is assessed against assets not income. You could have zero income tax liability in the year you die, but you could still owe estate tax on the value of your assets. Just ask the IRS:

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... estate-tax

Mir wrote:
As far as a "special claim" that teachers have, if that's true why do we allow businesses to write off their expenses when it comes to paying their tax? What special claim do they have on assets that they're purchasing from other people?


Teachers are receiving a 2x standard deduction just like everybody else. The income brackets commonly occupied by teachers are all receiving increased after-tax income. Why does it matter what you deduct to get there? The only reason to mention teachers in the same breath as the estate tax is to use educators as an emotional sob story.

We tax businesses on their net income rather than gross revenue because profits (value creation) aren't necessarily correlated to revenues. Some businesses turn small profits on huge revenues. Some businesses turn huge profits on small revenues. It's both rational and fair to tax net income because that's the value available to be paid. Taxing gross revenues would kill otherwise profitable businesses. Everybody loses in that scenario.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 10389
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:34 am

bgm wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I love winning


Just out of curiosity, what part of the bill makes you think you're "winning"?

I guess Russia got what it wanted. Destabilize the enemy and send it down the crapper. People like you are so blinded by your partisan BS that you can't even see it. Perhaps this clusterf**kery is what the US deserves?



I could not say it that well myself, so I will agree with your words which are right on the money. The use of the word " We' says it all. It is preposterous for anyone on this forum to use the word (we) to relate to these greedy Bastards, unless one is a greedy Bastard. I am beginning to believe that old saying, "We get the government we deserve" :roll:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:48 am

seb146 wrote:
So, people make claims with zero links and zero proof and they get a pass. I make a claim and provide a link and I am the bad guy. Typical.

You righties want a different link?

I am not a righty. Get over this nonsense of righties and lefties.

This is about telling the truth.

Even when you do post a link, you often do so in a deceptive way, as you did in this case.

You attempted to attribute to an entire 8-yr Obama administration the increase in debt numbers for the first two years of it. You knew very well that the percentage increase for the entire 8 years was MUCH higher than for the first two years only.

I am being gentle in claiming that you were being deceptive. Others would be justified in claiming that you lied.

Yes, you are the bad guy. Mas bad hombre.

You still have not corrected the numbers that you posted.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:15 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
Tuition waivers are taxed. Those are way different. Tuition waivers are largely granted to graduate students on the condition that they perform work for a university (TA, lab techs, etc.). That is plainly compensation and should be taxed.

Tuition waivers are the equivalent of scholarships. Money the student does not have to pay to get an education. Many students work in cafeterias or other menial jobs in partial return for scholarships.

Lab work is a necessary part of rigorous training in a discipline. It costs a lot of money to equip and maintain labs and keep them supplied with consumables. Federal grants (it seems to me) in support of training labs is a fine thing.


DfwRevolution wrote:
Wrong. The estate tax is assessed against assets not income. You could have zero income tax liability in the year you die, but you could still owe estate tax on the value of your assets. Just ask the IRS:

If the estate tax is asset based, then the tax would apply only on the increase in asset value after the asset was initially acquired by the estate (just as when someone trades in stocks and bonds). Correct me if I am wrong in this, but I think estate taxes are computed on the entire value of the estate. There is a healthy dose of double taxation in that case.

Let me give one example. My estate includes an automobile that I purchased for $20,000 (with my after-tax money, and after paying all taxes on the vehicle). My son, while settling my estate, sells that car for its current depreciated value of $10,000. The new owner pays all taxes on that resale transaction.

Now, you want my estate to pay taxes all over again on the $10,000 residual value of my car?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:31 am

seb146 wrote:
Republicans are no longer allowed to call themselves the party of fiscal responsibility nor the party of the average American nor the party of Jesus. They represent none of these things.


Depends on what America.... they surly represent the xenophopic, women hating America, and Jesus has this tit bit about murdering a couple of Trillion non.Christians when he comes back and those republicans seem to be quite fond of genocide Jesus.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:08 am

tommy1808 wrote:
....and Jesus has this tit bit about......

"Tit bit"? New term for me, or has something been lost/added in translation?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:14 am

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
....and Jesus has this tit bit about......

"Tit bit"? New term for me, or has something been lost/added in translation?


titbit ... ~ delicacy, gem ...

best regards
THomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
....and Jesus has this tit bit about......

"Tit bit"? New term for me, or has something been lost/added in translation?


titbit ... ~ delicacy, gem ...

best regards
THomas

Aaaahhh, tidbit.....I didn't think of that. Tits distract me.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5883
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:12 pm

Well for those of you in the stock market, enjoy the ride. But if anything changes about this Bill, the gains could be short lived.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/04/cramer- ... rkers.html
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
seb146
Posts: 15677
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:01 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, people make claims with zero links and zero proof and they get a pass. I make a claim and provide a link and I am the bad guy. Typical.

You righties want a different link?

I am not a righty. Get over this nonsense of righties and lefties.

This is about telling the truth.

Even when you do post a link, you often do so in a deceptive way, as you did in this case.

You attempted to attribute to an entire 8-yr Obama administration the increase in debt numbers for the first two years of it. You knew very well that the percentage increase for the entire 8 years was MUCH higher than for the first two years only.

I am being gentle in claiming that you were being deceptive. Others would be justified in claiming that you lied.

Yes, you are the bad guy. Mas bad hombre.

You still have not corrected the numbers that you posted.


I give a civics lesson and I am the bad guy? I suppose I need to post Breitbart and 4Chan and Fox to get you to agree. How is it deceptive? You throw these accusations out there and I still am "bad hombre."

That's another thing: you say you are not a rightie but you praise and quote tRump every chance you get. Methinks thou doth protest too much.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 9396
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:06 am

My questions got avoided so here's a new one : the tax bill includes a new 20% tax on importations by multinational companies with activities in the US. How is that for low taxes, free capitalism etc. ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:21 am

Aesma wrote:
My questions got avoided so here's a new one : the tax bill includes a new 20% tax on importations by multinational companies with activities in the US. How is that for low taxes, free capitalism etc. ?


i can´t wait to see how they will argue in front of the WTO that isn´t an illegal tariff. ....

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:02 am

seb146 wrote:
Not to mention this bill takes away affordable health care for millions.

But, not to worry: The Senate bill still has to be reconciled with the House bill, so tRump's first win (over a year in office) could still not happen.


Healthcare is already made unaffordable for millions. Obamacare was based on good ideas to begin with, but it was half-done. I liked it at some point. Their major flaw was influx of people that never had insurance before and need treatment. Congress promised to allocate a budget for that, but never did (got busy with "Russian meddling" instead) As the result - here in New York City 2 good health insurers went out of business (decided they don't want to do it anymore with this mess). Premiums are $450-700 for a simple Bronze plan (cheaper with limited network and more expensive with a good one), and around $1000 for a descent Silver/Gold one. And that's per person. Kind of hard to call this affordable.

Me - being a young and healthy male, find it much cheaper to pay the penalty and get some sort of emergency/catastrophic non-compliant insurance for cheap, with medical underwriting. Hence - Obamacare failed already. I am just glad Trump zeroes out the penalty.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:27 am

anrec80 wrote:
Premiums are $450-700 for a simple Bronze plan (cheaper with limited network and more expensive with a good one), and around $1000 for a descent Silver/Gold one. And that's per person. Kind of hard to call this affordable.


If that is affordable depends a lot on average wages.I pay the maximum allowable healthcare premium, ~810 USD, because your premium is simply a percentage of your income and i am above the maximum applicable amount. That would of course be per household income, i.e. wife and kids would be ensured as well, unless they have have income of their own.
Of course that is a function of medical expenses, and since your pharma mafia gets to overcharge without shame or legal consequences, healthcare is not affordable. WarR1 had a nice example of his wifes asthma spray, that was almost two orders of magnitude more expensive than here.

Me - being a young and healthy male, find it much cheaper to pay the penalty and get some sort of emergency/catastrophic non-compliant insurance for cheap, with medical underwriting. Hence - Obamacare failed already. I am just glad Trump zeroes out the penalty.


actually that is proof positive that it does work. You can decide to stay out of the system, but you can only do so in a way that doesn´t allow you to freeload if and when you need those services, which is only a matter of time. If people complain about exploding premiums, just wait until the individual mandate is repealed and being a drain on the healthcare system at other peoples expense is legal again once more.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:20 am

seb146 wrote:
I give a civics lesson and I am the bad guy? I suppose I need to post Breitbart and 4Chan and Fox to get you to agree. How is it deceptive? You throw these accusations out there and I still am "bad hombre."

That's another thing: you say you are not a rightie but you praise and quote tRump every chance you get. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

You will never admit your deceptive and "false-fact" narratives.

Just as you will never stop lying about my praising Mr. Trump. There is no person posting in this forum who had been more adamant than I have been about the need for Mr. Trump's removal.

And you know that, yet continue to lie about it. Why?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5883
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:12 pm

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/56839290 ... ig-tax-cut

"That's a real concern right now. To Fed policymakers, the economy is already at or near full employment. They've already raised rates twice this year and are widely expected to do so again this month."

So with the economy at full employment. What kind of boost is the GOP really looking for?

Remember, this is all just a tax break to pay the rich. When we hit high inflation, remember to blame Trump and the GOP.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
So with the economy at full employment. What kind of boost is the GOP really looking for? .


Closing sale.... grab what you can before the US Economy goes the early 1990s USSR way.

Remember, this is all just a tax break to pay the rich. When we hit high inflation, remember to blame Trump and the GOP.


or default on its debt, which Präsident Trump is on record saying is a good idea. Nice little way of stock market manipulation as well. Giving them an extra trillion or so can probably keep the race going for a bit until pension fonts get wiped out again.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
seb146
Posts: 15677
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:23 pm

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Not to mention this bill takes away affordable health care for millions.

But, not to worry: The Senate bill still has to be reconciled with the House bill, so tRump's first win (over a year in office) could still not happen.


Healthcare is already made unaffordable for millions. Obamacare was based on good ideas to begin with, but it was half-done. I liked it at some point. Their major flaw was influx of people that never had insurance before and need treatment. Congress promised to allocate a budget for that, but never did (got busy with "Russian meddling" instead) As the result - here in New York City 2 good health insurers went out of business (decided they don't want to do it anymore with this mess). Premiums are $450-700 for a simple Bronze plan (cheaper with limited network and more expensive with a good one), and around $1000 for a descent Silver/Gold one. And that's per person. Kind of hard to call this affordable.

Me - being a young and healthy male, find it much cheaper to pay the penalty and get some sort of emergency/catastrophic non-compliant insurance for cheap, with medical underwriting. Hence - Obamacare failed already. I am just glad Trump zeroes out the penalty.


But, that is good. The risk is spread among everyone. If you pay the penalty because you are healthy, you are actually helping people who are not healthy by lowering their premium. Your low risk is offsetting someone else's high risk. It evens out.

No, ACA was not good. But, it was far better than what had come before and what Republicans want. Their health care plan is "die quickly so it does not cost us as much." Because, you know, Christianity and all.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
Posts: 15677
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:27 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I give a civics lesson and I am the bad guy? I suppose I need to post Breitbart and 4Chan and Fox to get you to agree. How is it deceptive? You throw these accusations out there and I still am "bad hombre."

That's another thing: you say you are not a rightie but you praise and quote tRump every chance you get. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

You will never admit your deceptive and "false-fact" narratives.

Just as you will never stop lying about my praising Mr. Trump. There is no person posting in this forum who had been more adamant than I have been about the need for Mr. Trump's removal.

And you know that, yet continue to lie about it. Why?


You praise tRump and turn around and say how horrible he is but you love him and all the other Republicans in office. You do that over and over and over and over then get mad at me for pointing it out.

As far as "false fact narratives" what is "false fact" about pointing out basic civics? That spending bills originate in the House? That Republicans controlled the House from 2010 on and the Senate in 2014? Spending was out of control more those years than others but it was Obama's fault and I am the "false fact narrative" one? By teaching civics?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:57 pm

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I give a civics lesson and I am the bad guy? I suppose I need to post Breitbart and 4Chan and Fox to get you to agree. How is it deceptive? You throw these accusations out there and I still am "bad hombre."

That's another thing: you say you are not a rightie but you praise and quote tRump every chance you get. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

You will never admit your deceptive and "false-fact" narratives.

Just as you will never stop lying about my praising Mr. Trump. There is no person posting in this forum who had been more adamant than I have been about the need for Mr. Trump's removal.

And you know that, yet continue to lie about it. Why?


You praise tRump and turn around and say how horrible he is but you love him and all the other Republicans in office. You do that over and over and over and over then get mad at me for pointing it out.

As far as "false fact narratives" what is "false fact" about pointing out basic civics? That spending bills originate in the House? That Republicans controlled the House from 2010 on and the Senate in 2014? Spending was out of control more those years than others but it was Obama's fault and I am the "false fact narrative" one? By teaching civics?

A civics teacher would not misrepresent the percentage of debt increase during the Obama administration. You did misrepresent it and refuse to correct the error.

Whenever you are ready you may post quotes of anything I have written in praise of Mr. Trump or of "all other republicans in office".

You can't, and you won't.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:30 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Tuition waivers are taxed. Those are way different. Tuition waivers are largely granted to graduate students on the condition that they perform work for a university (TA, lab techs, etc.). That is plainly compensation and should be taxed.

Tuition waivers are the equivalent of scholarships. Money the student does not have to pay to get an education. Many students work in cafeterias or other menial jobs in partial return for scholarships.

Lab work is a necessary part of rigorous training in a discipline. It costs a lot of money to equip and maintain labs and keep them supplied with consumables. Federal grants (it seems to me) in support of training labs is a fine thing.


DfwRevolution wrote:
Wrong. The estate tax is assessed against assets not income. You could have zero income tax liability in the year you die, but you could still owe estate tax on the value of your assets. Just ask the IRS:

If the estate tax is asset based, then the tax would apply only on the increase in asset value after the asset was initially acquired by the estate (just as when someone trades in stocks and bonds). Correct me if I am wrong in this, but I think estate taxes are computed on the entire value of the estate. There is a healthy dose of double taxation in that case.

Let me give one example. My estate includes an automobile that I purchased for $20,000 (with my after-tax money, and after paying all taxes on the vehicle). My son, while settling my estate, sells that car for its current depreciated value of $10,000. The new owner pays all taxes on that resale transaction.

Now, you want my estate to pay taxes all over again on the $10,000 residual value of my car?
I now get to pay taxes on my state and local taxes.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5883
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:15 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
So with the economy at full employment. What kind of boost is the GOP really looking for? .


Closing sale.... grab what you can before the US Economy goes the early 1990s USSR way.

Remember, this is all just a tax break to pay the rich. When we hit high inflation, remember to blame Trump and the GOP.


or default on its debt, which Präsident Trump is on record saying is a good idea. Nice little way of stock market manipulation as well. Giving them an extra trillion or so can probably keep the race going for a bit until pension fonts get wiped out again.

best regards
Thomas



Looks like the people are wise to the crap fest that is in this bill.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-ta ... op-2017-12

"Analytics site FiveThirtyEight has found that the TCJA was the least popular tax-related bill dating back to 1981 — even less so than two bills that hiked taxes in the 1990s. As of last Wednesday, the bill had average ratings of 32% approval and 46% disapproval, based on polls from five organizations."

I wonder how many GOP congressional members will bail when the reconcilliation bill throws out some of the compromises that enabled this bill to pass in the house and senate?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
seb146
Posts: 15677
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:22 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
You will never admit your deceptive and "false-fact" narratives.

Just as you will never stop lying about my praising Mr. Trump. There is no person posting in this forum who had been more adamant than I have been about the need for Mr. Trump's removal.

And you know that, yet continue to lie about it. Why?


You praise tRump and turn around and say how horrible he is but you love him and all the other Republicans in office. You do that over and over and over and over then get mad at me for pointing it out.

As far as "false fact narratives" what is "false fact" about pointing out basic civics? That spending bills originate in the House? That Republicans controlled the House from 2010 on and the Senate in 2014? Spending was out of control more those years than others but it was Obama's fault and I am the "false fact narrative" one? By teaching civics?

A civics teacher would not misrepresent the percentage of debt increase during the Obama administration. You did misrepresent it and refuse to correct the error.


What are you on about? Obama did not spend nor did he issue any spending. This is your civics lesson and do your homework:

Spending bills originate in the House which Republicans controlled since 2010. How is that so hard to understand? The president can not just spend trillions of dollars with no checks or balances. It must go through Congress, starting with the House. Go read the Constitution. Please. As an American citizen, this is something you should know.

Whenever you are ready you may post quotes of anything I have written in praise of Mr. Trump or of "all other republicans in office".

You can't, and you won't.


I did and I would. Every time you post something pro-Trump, I point it out and you go on and on about how much you dislike him and never go back to find the original post you made supporting tRump.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:44 am

casinterest wrote:
I wonder how many GOP congressional members will bail when the reconcilliation bill throws out some of the compromises that enabled this bill to pass in the house and senate?


....those that don´t have lucrative private sector jobs waiting for themselves and their children in one of their bosses, ohm... donors..... companies.

What is going on in the US at the moment has striking resemblance to this piece of recent Italian history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
LMP737
Posts: 5308
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:32 am

DfwRevolution wrote:

On the corporate tax side, these reforms will make American. businesses more competitive to the direct benefit of American workers. On the personal income tax side, these reforms will lower or flatten the tax burden for all Americans. .


Hey, great Fox News talking points. Too bad it bad it's complete and utter clap trap. Why don't you look up what the effective tax rate large US based corporations actually pay. Here's a hint, none of them pay the top marginal rate. Does anyone really think that these companies are going to bring back work to this country because of the lower tax rate? Do you think Boeing is going to stop plans a finishing center in China? Do you think GM is going to close production of cars in China and bring it back to the US?

DfwRevolution wrote:
Elimination of Obamacare mandate


How is millions of people losing their insurance going to benefit anyone?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
Posts: 5308
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:34 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
Snopes isn't an authority on anything. And when comparing administrations, make sure you use the same time interval. The article compares two years of the Obama administration to eight years of the Bush administration.

As typical for shoddy Snopes pieces, the article is also devoid of any context why the various administrations spent what they did.


If that's the case then prove them wrong.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5883
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I wonder how many GOP congressional members will bail when the reconcilliation bill throws out some of the compromises that enabled this bill to pass in the house and senate?


....those that don´t have lucrative private sector jobs waiting for themselves and their children in one of their bosses, ohm... donors..... companies.

What is going on in the US at the moment has striking resemblance to this piece of recent Italian history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

best regards
Thomas


Not really. The US knows about Trump.

The real issue is that they are funding the Rich instead of the people that voted him in.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/trump-t ... D=ref_fark

You know your bill is bad when even Goldman says it won't help the economy.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I wonder how many GOP congressional members will bail when the reconcilliation bill throws out some of the compromises that enabled this bill to pass in the house and senate?


....those that don´t have lucrative private sector jobs waiting for themselves and their children in one of their bosses, ohm... donors..... companies.

What is going on in the US at the moment has striking resemblance to this piece of recent Italian history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

best regards
Thomas


Not really. The US knows about Trump.


P2 was so widespread, that they pretty much had to issue a general amnesty to keep the government working.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:42 pm

casinterest wrote:
I wonder how many GOP congressional members will bail when the reconcilliation bill throws out some of the compromises that enabled this bill to pass in the house and senate?

I predict none.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6819
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:50 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I wonder how many GOP congressional members will bail when the reconcilliation bill throws out some of the compromises that enabled this bill to pass in the house and senate?

I predict none.


well, some Billionaire with brains could just buy a couple of "no" votes, after all that is where the "yes" votes came from as well. There are members of rapists united admitting as much after all.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:59 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I wonder how many GOP congressional members will bail when the reconcilliation bill throws out some of the compromises that enabled this bill to pass in the house and senate?

I predict none.


well, some Billionaire with brains could just buy a couple of "no" votes, after all that is where the "yes" votes came from as well. There are members of rapists united admitting as much after all.

best regards
Thomas
Why would a billionaire want to buy "no" vote? They (or their heirs) will most likely make out like bandits.

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