NIKV69
Topic Author
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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:01 am

Mitch.."We have the votes"
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... ag-n825591

Glad one of the core promises is on it's way to becoming reality. It is about time.


Loving how CNN's Erin Burnett's head is exploding as she runs with the rich hating diatribe.

Sherrod Brown also trying to exploit the we have no time to read it we don't know what is in the bill. Oh well like Nancy Pelosi said "We have to pass the bill to see what is in it."

Congress sausage making is never pretty but I am glad we are getting down to real business.

Winning!
tommy1808 wrote:

only about 25% of the US electorate voted for Trump. And i didn´t generalize they are all lunatics or rape supporters. Some may just have been stupid and got honestly dooped.


 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:26 am

Giving everything to the rich because they use OUR money to create jobs has not happened in 30+ years, why would it start now. You righties were up in arms over Pelosi "pass it now and read what's in it later" but now it is great? When the economy collapses because of this, how will you all blame Democrats? Considering Democrats are the ones warning everyone how horrible this bill is.

Not to mention this bill takes away affordable health care for millions.

But, not to worry: The Senate bill still has to be reconciled with the House bill, so tRump's first win (over a year in office) could still not happen.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15964
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:35 am

Gonna be fun watching the AARP crowd lose their medicare and get socked with higher taxes, while their children--who choose their senior living home--get slammed from every angle. Hope they're prayed up!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:37 am

Do you guys remember the good old days when Republicans allowed Obama to do as he pleased and never objected? Oh wait...I meant deny even the slightest breath because of the deficit...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:49 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Do you guys remember the good old days when Republicans allowed Obama to do as he pleased and never objected? Oh wait...I meant deny even the slightest breath because of the deficit...

Well if we’re stripping kids of healthcare in order for Trump’s cockroach children to get a bigger inheritance while busting the deficit, then that’s kewl... I’m sure Ivanka will create more sweatshop jobs in China. Blessed!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Mir
Posts: 19395
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:00 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Sherrod Brown also trying to exploit the we have no time to read it we don't know what is in the bill. Oh well like Nancy Pelosi said "We have to pass the bill to see what is in it."


Oh stop it. Obamacare was crafted in public over the course of a year, with hearings, a CBO score, amendments, all that stuff. This bill is being crafted in secret, with no meaningful debate on it, no CBO score, and they're making handwritten changes to it as we speak. That's not even remotely comparable.

Meanwhile, pretty much every analysis on what we do know about the bill indicates it will increase the deficit, ruin health care, raise taxes for most of the country and significantly benefit the president personally. The public hates the bill, and for good reason, because it's a bad bill. The GOP knows it's a bad bill. Yet they're going to hold hands and jump off the cliff because they've let Donald Trump convince them they can fly if they do it.

The Republican party has become a cancer to this country.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:02 am

NIKV69 wrote:
...Glad one of the core promises is on it's way to becoming reality. It is about time.


Assuming every GOP legislative action fails at a different stage, this will die in conference committee.

Ryan took blame for Obama Care repeal attempt #1
McConnel took blame for ObamaCare repeal attempt #2
This may pass in both House and Senate and go down in style at the conference committee.

The goal seems to be to spread the blame and do nothing.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:37 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
...Glad one of the core promises is on it's way to becoming reality. It is about time.


Assuming every GOP legislative action fails at a different stage, this will die in conference committee.

Ryan took blame for Obama Care repeal attempt #1
McConnel took blame for ObamaCare repeal attempt #2
This may pass in both House and Senate and go down in style at the conference committee.

The goal seems to be to spread the blame and do nothing.

If deficit hawks and blue-state Republicans stick to their guns and don't like the changes, the conference committee dies. However, the House can also agree to the Senate version or the Senate can agree to the House version. There's still a way for these tax cuts to see the light of day.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
stratosphere
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:58 am

seb146 wrote:
Giving everything to the rich because they use OUR money to create jobs has not happened in 30+ years, why would it start now. You righties were up in arms over Pelosi "pass it now and read what's in it later" but now it is great? When the economy collapses because of this, how will you all blame Democrats? Considering Democrats are the ones warning everyone how horrible this bill is.

Not to mention this bill takes away affordable health care for millions.

But, not to worry: The Senate bill still has to be reconciled with the House bill, so tRump's first win (over a year in office) could still not happen.


You know I've been waiting to pounce on that millions are going to lose their health care because of the elimination of the mandate. I mean really? So millions are going to lose health care because you won't be FORCING them to buy into it not to mention most pay the penalty because they cannot afford the super high premiums and deductibles. So spare me that argument. However, I will concede that I am not a real fan of this tax bill I will save some not a lot but my employer is totally pushing this so that is where the tax savings really is. But hopefully it does stimulate growth my 401k is climbing and that's all I have since my pensions have been decimated thanks to corporate greed. The democrats most certainly are not in my corner they want to give the store to those that don't want to work or illegals so if this is the sad choice we have guess I have to go with the GOP.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:08 am

stratosphere wrote:
I mean really? So millions are going to lose health care because you won't be FORCING them to buy into it not to mention most pay the penalty because they cannot afford the super high premiums and deductibles.

Talk about being shortsighted.

No mandate -> people start dropping out from insurance markets and become uninsured -> markets become pricier because there's less people to cover but still have to offer plans that meet Obamacare standards -> prices go up -> more people drop out -> lather, rinse, and repeat.

But yeah...removing the mandate is NOT gonna cause people to lose health insurance, just like getting infected with HIV won't kill you.

Here's the question: if the insurance market does get pricier for 2019, whose fault is it?

stratosphere wrote:
But hopefully it does stimulate growth my 401k is climbing and that's all I have since my pensions have been decimated thanks to corporate greed.
Just wait until the crash. This rally won't last forever. I'm also reaping the benefits of the bull run, but I'm ready to pull the trigger and move into bonds...especially if this tax bill gets stuck in committees.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Mir
Posts: 19395
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:20 am

stratosphere wrote:
You know I've been waiting to pounce on that millions are going to lose their health care because of the elimination of the mandate. I mean really? So millions are going to lose health care because you won't be FORCING them to buy into it not to mention most pay the penalty because they cannot afford the super high premiums and deductibles. So spare me that argument.


Yeah, really. The mandate expands the risk pool by encouraging people to stay in the healthcare marketplace. An expanded risk pool drives costs down on average, and especially drives costs down for those who get sick and need insurance the most. Without the mandate, people who consider themselves healthy may decide not to purchase healthcare, thus driving up costs for everyone that does. Since costs are higher, even more people may decide not to enter the healthcare marketplace, which drives up costs even further and so on. That's how you get a "death spiral" of increasing costs.

stratosphere wrote:
However, I will concede that I am not a real fan of this tax bill I will save some not a lot but my employer is totally pushing this so that is where the tax savings really is. But hopefully it does stimulate growth my 401k is climbing and that's all I have since my pensions have been decimated thanks to corporate greed. The democrats most certainly are not in my corner they want to give the store to those that don't want to work or illegals so if this is the sad choice we have guess I have to go with the GOP.


Bad news: this whole bill is a subsidy on corporate greed, the same thing that cost you your pensions. This bill adds $1.5 trillion to the deficit - you really think they're not going to come after your 401k and social security to pay for it? It's not going to stimulate growth - companies are already on record as saying they're going to pay out shareholders rather than invest the money they get to keep in job creation or higher pay. The bill's anti-education provisions are going to have drastic long-term effects for the economy as we suffer from a shortage of high-skilled workers and researchers. There's still time to call your representatives in Congress and tell them to kill this one and start over.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:36 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Just wait until the crash. This rally won't last forever. I'm also reaping the benefits of the bull run, but I'm ready to pull the trigger and move into bonds...especially if this tax bill gets stuck in committees.


I have money in an account waiting for the crash. Buy low. Sell high. :-)
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:45 am

DocLightning wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Just wait until the crash. This rally won't last forever. I'm also reaping the benefits of the bull run, but I'm ready to pull the trigger and move into bonds...especially if this tax bill gets stuck in committees.


I have money in an account waiting for the crash. Buy low. Sell high. :-)


All the gambles with stocks and bonds should go out the window when you retire. If you are foolish, you may gamble on these runs, but when the crash comes, nobody gives a shit, it is every man for himself. You will end up working again. The term fixed income starts to sink in. I have been out twenty years and I gave up gambling on the market twenty years ago. Greed will ruin you more times than it makes you rich.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:00 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Oh well like Nancy Pelosi said "We have to pass the bill to see what is in it."

So you are becoming just like a Democrat. Interesting to know. I have noticed more and more people acting like those they disagreed with a year ago.
But your validation of Democrat methods shows you are the same.

NIKV69 proud Democrat!

Or do you think the "pass it to know it" was wrong?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
stratosphere
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:35 am

Mir wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
You know I've been waiting to pounce on that millions are going to lose their health care because of the elimination of the mandate. I mean really? So millions are going to lose health care because you won't be FORCING them to buy into it not to mention most pay the penalty because they cannot afford the super high premiums and deductibles. So spare me that argument.


Yeah, really. The mandate expands the risk pool by encouraging people to stay in the healthcare marketplace. An expanded risk pool drives costs down on average, and especially drives costs down for those who get sick and need insurance the most. Without the mandate, people who consider themselves healthy may decide not to purchase healthcare, thus driving up costs for everyone that does. Since costs are higher, even more people may decide not to enter the healthcare marketplace, which drives up costs even further and so on. That's how you get a "death spiral" of increasing costs.

stratosphere wrote:
However, I will concede that I am not a real fan of this tax bill I will save some not a lot but my employer is totally pushing this so that is where the tax savings really is. But hopefully it does stimulate growth my 401k is climbing and that's all I have since my pensions have been decimated thanks to corporate greed. The democrats most certainly are not in my corner they want to give the store to those that don't want to work or illegals so if this is the sad choice we have guess I have to go with the GOP.


Bad news: this whole bill is a subsidy on corporate greed, the same thing that cost you your pensions. This bill adds $1.5 trillion to the deficit - you really think they're not going to come after your 401k and social security to pay for it? It's not going to stimulate growth - companies are already on record as saying they're going to pay out shareholders rather than invest the money they get to keep in job creation or higher pay. The bill's anti-education provisions are going to have drastic long-term effects for the economy as we suffer from a shortage of high-skilled workers and researchers. There's still time to call your representatives in Congress and tell them to kill this one and start over.


Yeah I understand the purpose of the mandate, The healthy subsidize the unhealthy I get it. My problem is you the left keep saying this is going to throw millions off the health care rolls. Yeah it might if they all paid for it but my premise is that as lot do not. They pay the penalty cuz the affordable care act ( a oxymoron if I ever heard one) nothing is affordable in the affordable care act.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:03 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Winning!


I'd be genuinely interested in understanding why, besides political fanatism and partisan rhetoric, you would consider this a win for America?

The bill, by all accounts, clearly favors a minority (and the President himself), coincidentally that same minority which happens to don a lot of money to the current congress majority.
It will most likely dig the US deeper into deficit. It will actually increase, or at the very least not change, the tax burden of a majority of Americans while rendering healthcare inaccessible for many of them.
It is hugely unpopular and not supported by a vast majority of Americans.
It has been hurriedly pushed through with clear disregard for democratic process.

What, concretely, makes it a win for anyone other than the few percent of the population that will directly benefit from it in the form of more money for themselves?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Mir
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:17 am

stratosphere wrote:
Mir wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
You know I've been waiting to pounce on that millions are going to lose their health care because of the elimination of the mandate. I mean really? So millions are going to lose health care because you won't be FORCING them to buy into it not to mention most pay the penalty because they cannot afford the super high premiums and deductibles. So spare me that argument.


Yeah, really. The mandate expands the risk pool by encouraging people to stay in the healthcare marketplace. An expanded risk pool drives costs down on average, and especially drives costs down for those who get sick and need insurance the most. Without the mandate, people who consider themselves healthy may decide not to purchase healthcare, thus driving up costs for everyone that does. Since costs are higher, even more people may decide not to enter the healthcare marketplace, which drives up costs even further and so on. That's how you get a "death spiral" of increasing costs.

stratosphere wrote:
However, I will concede that I am not a real fan of this tax bill I will save some not a lot but my employer is totally pushing this so that is where the tax savings really is. But hopefully it does stimulate growth my 401k is climbing and that's all I have since my pensions have been decimated thanks to corporate greed. The democrats most certainly are not in my corner they want to give the store to those that don't want to work or illegals so if this is the sad choice we have guess I have to go with the GOP.


Bad news: this whole bill is a subsidy on corporate greed, the same thing that cost you your pensions. This bill adds $1.5 trillion to the deficit - you really think they're not going to come after your 401k and social security to pay for it? It's not going to stimulate growth - companies are already on record as saying they're going to pay out shareholders rather than invest the money they get to keep in job creation or higher pay. The bill's anti-education provisions are going to have drastic long-term effects for the economy as we suffer from a shortage of high-skilled workers and researchers. There's still time to call your representatives in Congress and tell them to kill this one and start over.


Yeah I understand the purpose of the mandate, The healthy subsidize the unhealthy I get it. My problem is you the left keep saying this is going to throw millions off the health care rolls. Yeah it might if they all paid for it but my premise is that as lot do not. They pay the penalty cuz the affordable care act ( a oxymoron if I ever heard one) nothing is affordable in the affordable care act.


When the effects of these bills are run by analysts, invariably there's a high number of people who will end up uninsured. That wouldn't be the case if everyone was forgoing insurance and paying the penalty as you suggest. A lot of people do have insurance through the Affordable Care Act, and while their plans won't necessarily be taken away from them, they will be forced to give them up because they will become unaffordable. I see no meaningful difference between those two.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jetero
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:19 am

NIKV69 wrote:
What, concretely, makes it a win for anyone other than the few percent of the population that will directly benefit from it in the form of more money for themselves?


Of which NIKV69 is definitely not part of the benefited population.

Keep on waving that flag, NIKV!

#MAGA

NIKV, please donate your brain to science for posterity.
 
seb146
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:59 am

And another thing:

This "win" will add how much to the deficit? This "win" is being paraded around by the party of fiscal responsibility and lowering the debt, remember...
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:02 am

Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Oh well like Nancy Pelosi said "We have to pass the bill to see what is in it."

So you are becoming just like a Democrat. Interesting to know. I have noticed more and more people acting like those they disagreed with a year ago.
But your validation of Democrat methods shows you are the same.

NIKV69 proud Democrat!

Or do you think the "pass it to know it" was wrong?

Tugg


Actually I was being facetious in that the Dems were just grasping at straws and used a quote from Nancy Pelosi. Not to mention this legislation is much better than the ACA.. Bill just passed the senate 51-49

I love winning
tommy1808 wrote:

only about 25% of the US electorate voted for Trump. And i didn´t generalize they are all lunatics or rape supporters. Some may just have been stupid and got honestly dooped.


 
jetero
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Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:10 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Oh well like Nancy Pelosi said "We have to pass the bill to see what is in it."

So you are becoming just like a Democrat. Interesting to know. I have noticed more and more people acting like those they disagreed with a year ago.
But your validation of Democrat methods shows you are the same.

NIKV69 proud Democrat!

Or do you think the "pass it to know it" was wrong?

Tugg


Actually I was being facetious in that the Dems were just grasping at straws and used a quote from Nancy Pelosi. Not to mention this legislation is much better than the ACA.. Bill just passed the senate 51-49

I love winning


Yay you?

Do you need the world to send you a hug?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:29 am

This is a bill done for one reason. To ensure that the Republican donors keep donating.

Make no mistake, this was not done for the purpose of the people. This is why this Bill will fail the GOP and America.

Kansas has already seen what happens when you lower taxes expecting revenue growth. When there is no spare capacity for Growth, the revenues will just get lower and lower, and the deficits will spiral higher and higher as inflation takes over.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
jetero
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:40 am

casinterest wrote:
This is a bill done for one reason. To ensure that the Republican donors keep donating.

Make no mistake, this was not done for the purpose of the people. This is why this Bill will fail the GOP and America.

Kansas has already seen what happens when you lower taxes expecting revenue growth. When there is no spare capacity for Growth, the revenues will just get lower and lower, and the deficits will spiral higher and higher as inflation takes over.


That’s way too rational. Rationality to Nikky V=losing.

(Is it wrong for me to want Nikky V to just get way, way poorer based on his absolute, willful ignorance? I won’t have anything to do with it ... Trump will take care of it.)
 
CPH-R
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:14 am

I realise it's just trolling, but it's a sad day when politics is about 'winning' rather than passing sound, sensible legislation, that actually improves the lives of people.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:41 am

CPH-R wrote:
I realise it's just trolling, but it's a sad day when politics is about 'winning' rather than passing sound, sensible legislation, that actually improves the lives of people.


Well, they stole all the money from the poor and gave it to the rich, with the new tax law the US government becomes Apple: taking in new debt to give it to its shareholders.
So now they taking the money from kids not yet born to give it to the rich.

After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.

This needs explication. Too deep or too murky for me, I'm not quite sure which.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:58 am

tommy1808 wrote:
After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.


:checkmark: sad but true, and the saddest part is people are applauding and the people whom voted these people in, will be hurt the most.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
CPH-R
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:06 am

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.

This needs explication. Too deep or too murky for me, I'm not quite sure which.

I suspect it's to do with the popular (among the right) meme, that by working hard and applying yourself, you can achieve the American Dream™. However, as shown by numerous studies, this tax will increase the tax bill on those with lower income, making it even harder to move up the social ladder, while ensuring those at the top will have even more money to dispense on things like paying off politicians to do their bidding.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:14 am

CPH-R wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.

This needs explication. Too deep or too murky for me, I'm not quite sure which.

I suspect it's to do with the popular (among the right) meme, that by working hard and applying yourself, you can achieve the American Dream™. However, as shown by numerous studies, this tax will increase the tax bill on those with lower income, making it even harder to move up the social ladder, while ensuring those at the top will have even more money to dispense on things like paying off politicians to do their bidding.


And thus leaving the lower classes with so little money that they are effectively trapped because they are totally dependent on shitty jobs (the owners of those companies), thus making them just like slaves to the wealthy.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LMP737
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:20 am

NIKV69 wrote:

Actually I was being facetious in that the Dems were just grasping at straws and used a quote from Nancy Pelosi. Not to mention this legislation is much better than the ACA.. Bill just passed the senate 51-49

I love winning


LOL. How exactly did you win?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:38 am

Trickle down economics has become (has always been ?) a religion, you need faith, proofs are optional. I have no fundamental problem with a 20% corporate tax rate, if there is no loophole whatsoever and companies actually pay that. I somehow doubt that'll be the case. I think healthcare should be paid for by a tax, because that's how it's done in my country and it works. Maybe when the Democrats (or another left wing party) take power back in the US they can try this approach, increasing taxes back to sane levels, while affecting some of the money to a kind of medicare for all.

My Bitcoins have grown 11% in the last 24 hours. I take it as a sign of a loss of confidence in official currencies and stock markets, but it's just one interpretation. Could also be linked with the North Korea situation. Or US millionaires knowing they'll pay less taxes and buying more coins as a result.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:14 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Mitch.."We have the votes"
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... ag-n825591

Glad one of the core promises is on it's way to becoming reality. It is about tIme.

Winning!


Congratultions I gather from your excitement you earn more than 200,000 per year, from what I’ve read anyone earning less is going to fund the tax cuts for all those earning more. Plus the additional 1.2 trillion dollars which the govt will have to borrow to find them.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:29 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.

Best regards
Thomas


You could move and give up citizenship, the people doing that would be the ones who could afford it, with transferable skills, not NVIKS mates the working poor who voted for this thing.
 
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par13del
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:05 pm

So a couple questions, how have the rich been getting richer under the 8 years of Obama and the greedy companies getting their money?
We had 8 years of Obama saying the rich should pay their fair share of tax, how much additional taxes did he get, did he ultimately pass his tax reform and how much did the deficit go down, how much off shore money did he get US companies to return to the USA?

Now we have Trump and his tax bill, and the same cry that the rich are getting richer, the greedy companies are getting more money, only thing he is not saying is the the rich should pay their fair share of tax.

If the lower corporate rates encourages US companies to re-invest in the USA by removing funds from off shore investments, who actually supports that, will those countries where those funds grow interest be supporters of a lower US tax rate?

Hillary specifically named my country for doing what a few US states are doing and have been doing for a while, we can only hope Trump does not know we exist.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:59 pm

Obama had a house who wouldn’t work with him.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3458
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:38 pm

par13del wrote:
So a couple questions, how have the rich been getting richer under the 8 years of Obama and the greedy companies getting their money?
We had 8 years of Obama saying the rich should pay their fair share of tax, how much additional taxes did he get, did he ultimately pass his tax reform and how much did the deficit go down, how much off shore money did he get US companies to return to the USA?

Now we have Trump and his tax bill, and the same cry that the rich are getting richer, the greedy companies are getting more money, only thing he is not saying is the the rich should pay their fair share of tax.

If the lower corporate rates encourages US companies to re-invest in the USA by removing funds from off shore investments, who actually supports that, will those countries where those funds grow interest be supporters of a lower US tax rate?

Hillary specifically named my country for doing what a few US states are doing and have been doing for a while, we can only hope Trump does not know we exist.


Trust me the liberals are pissed that Obama wasn't more aggressive on attacking income inequality and that it grew through the 8 years he was in office which is why support for Bernie was so great in 2016.

Lower tax rates might encourage some investment but what really will is demand.

70% of the US economy is customer spending and a good number of Americans (well over half IIRC) live paycheque to paycheque and have no disposable income to speak of and are facing stagnant or declining wages. Now some are going to face a potential tax hike lower that further.

How is that going to encourage investments when people aren't going to be able to afford to buy the very products that these companies produce which would increase their profits. Furthermore with less disposable income there is less innovation as people don't have the capital to potentially start a business and are tied to their jobs as desperation thus giving all their leverage to their employers.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 11323
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Mitch.."We have the votes"
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... ag-n825591

Glad one of the core promises is on it's way to becoming reality. It is about tIme.

Winning!


Congratultions I gather from your excitement you earn more than 200,000 per year, from what I’ve read anyone earning less is going to fund the tax cuts for all those earning more. Plus the additional 1.2 trillion dollars which the govt will have to borrow to find them.



Another assumption that as usual falls flat here. Just like I was from New Zealand. Users here that know me can tell you I don't make anywhere near 200k a year. Though it fits with the narrative that fringe posters here need to make their argument. How dare someone that isn't rich likes this bill!

Take a pill guys.
tommy1808 wrote:

only about 25% of the US electorate voted for Trump. And i didn´t generalize they are all lunatics or rape supporters. Some may just have been stupid and got honestly dooped.


 
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DocLightning
Posts: 20614
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:03 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Another assumption that as usual falls flat here. Just like I was from New Zealand. Users here that know me can tell you I don't make anywhere near 200k a year. Though it fits with the narrative that fringe posters here need to make their argument. How dare someone that isn't rich likes this bill!

Take a pill guys.


You are very welcome to enjoy a bill that will result in you paying higher taxes. I do make well over $200k a year and I will also pay higher taxes. Only those who do not make their money from a salary will enjoy a cut.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:39 pm

Republicans are no longer allowed to call themselves the party of fiscal responsibility nor the party of the average American nor the party of Jesus. They represent none of these things.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:43 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Mitch.."We have the votes"
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... ag-n825591

Glad one of the core promises is on it's way to becoming reality. It is about tIme.

Winning!


Congratultions I gather from your excitement you earn more than 200,000 per year, from what I’ve read anyone earning less is going to fund the tax cuts for all those earning more. Plus the additional 1.2 trillion dollars which the govt will have to borrow to find them.



Another assumption that as usual falls flat here. Just like I was from New Zealand. Users here that know me can tell you I don't make anywhere near 200k a year. Though it fits with the narrative that fringe posters here need to make their argument. How dare someone that isn't rich likes this bill!

Take a pill guys.


The average American income is about $80,000. People making under $500,000 will see their taxes go up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household ... ted_States
https://theintercept.com/2017/12/01/the ... ry-by-far/

Read the third paragraph of the second link.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
N867DA
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:55 pm

I wasn't for this tax bill and like many middle class voters see a tax increase. I understand the Republican mantra of wanting to share the load and spread the base but this bill strikes me as punitive, especially treating tuition waivers as income and getting rid of state tax exemptions.

I don't think these people want America to be a first world country; they seem to want a second Gilded Age. And they're well on our way to making all of us enjoy it!
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9011
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:01 pm

DocLightning wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Just wait until the crash. This rally won't last forever. I'm also reaping the benefits of the bull run, but I'm ready to pull the trigger and move into bonds...especially if this tax bill gets stuck in committees.


I have money in an account waiting for the crash. Buy low. Sell high. :-)


Guys, it's a fantasy to believe you can time the market. Professionals can't do it and neither can you. Just set your asset allocation to a risk level where you can tolerate the bears with the bulls and then leave it alone. Attempting to time the market is the biggest reason why retail investors often experience below-market returns.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Do you guys remember the good old days when Republicans allowed Obama to do as he pleased and never objected? Oh wait...I meant deny even the slightest breath because of the deficit...


Mir wrote:
Meanwhile, pretty much every analysis on what we do know about the bill indicates it will increase the deficit, ruin health care, raise taxes for most of the country and significantly benefit the president personally.


MaverickM11 wrote:
Well if we’re stripping kids of healthcare in order for Trump’s cockroach children to get a bigger inheritance while busting the deficit, then that’s kewl...


Francoflier wrote:
It will most likely dig the US deeper into deficit.


seb146 wrote:
This "win" will add how much to the deficit? This "win" is being paraded around by the party of fiscal responsibility and lowering the debt, remember...


casinterest wrote:
When there is no spare capacity for Growth, the revenues will just get lower and lower, and the deficits will spiral higher and higher as inflation takes over.


Wow! Look at all these deficit hawks come out of the woodwork! Just for consistency's sake, can you take a moment to condemn the Obama administration for nearly doubling the national debt in 8 years and adding massive new spending programs? That should be an easy, unoffensive request.

Aesma wrote:
Trickle down economics has become (has always been ?) a religion, you need faith, proofs are optional.


And you need willful ignorance to dispute the superior economic growth and widespread prosperity that is enjoyed by people of all income levels in low-tax, free-market societies.

tommy1808 wrote:
After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.


What a gross and obscene comment.

This tax reform package allows people to keep more of what they earn. Everything else is just details. I personally wish the revenue impact was deficit neutral or deficit reducing, but there are major wins in this reform benefiting all Americans that are worth it.

CPH-R wrote:
However, as shown by numerous studies, this tax will increase the tax bill on those with lower income, making it even harder to move up the social ladder, while ensuring those at the top will have even more money to dispense on things like paying off politicians to do their bidding.


The independent, non-partisan Tax Policy Center has evaluated that the tax reforms increase after-tax income for every single income group:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/feature/ ... d-jobs-act

The only scenario where taxes increase on any income group is if the rates sunset in 2027. There's a zero percent chance that will be allowed to happen. The effects of this bill would actually make the U.S. tax code more progressive and shift more tax burden to high-income earners.

LMP737 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Actually I was being facetious in that the Dems were just grasping at straws and used a quote from Nancy Pelosi. Not to mention this legislation is much better than the ACA.. Bill just passed the senate 51-49

I love winning


LOL. How exactly did you win?


We don't yet have a final bill that has passed conference committee, but many of the bill's particulars are outstanding:

- Corporate tax rate now competitive with most developed nations
- Corporate tax shifts to territorial system like most developed nations
- One-time repatriation tax on foreign earnings sitting overseas
- Accelerated depreciation of new capital assets
- Cap on SALT deductions
- Elimination of AMT
- Elimination of Obamacare mandate
- Elimination or reduction of estate tax
- Increased child tax credit
- Increased standard deduction

On the corporate tax side, these reforms will make American. businesses more competitive to the direct benefit of American workers. On the personal income tax side, these reforms will lower or flatten the tax burden for all Americans. These are pro-growth, pro-family, and pro-individual policies that are fair and will force further reforms at the state and local level. It isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have today.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:10 pm

"Republican" Senators were literally writing things in the bill in pen, scribbling things down their handlers wanted just minutes before the final, late night vote.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gop-sena ... mp-2017-12

How is anyone okay with this???
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:14 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Do you guys remember the good old days when Republicans allowed Obama to do as he pleased and never objected? Oh wait...I meant deny even the slightest breath because of the deficit...


Mir wrote:
Meanwhile, pretty much every analysis on what we do know about the bill indicates it will increase the deficit, ruin health care, raise taxes for most of the country and significantly benefit the president personally.


MaverickM11 wrote:
Well if we’re stripping kids of healthcare in order for Trump’s cockroach children to get a bigger inheritance while busting the deficit, then that’s kewl...


Francoflier wrote:
It will most likely dig the US deeper into deficit.


seb146 wrote:
This "win" will add how much to the deficit? This "win" is being paraded around by the party of fiscal responsibility and lowering the debt, remember...


casinterest wrote:
When there is no spare capacity for Growth, the revenues will just get lower and lower, and the deficits will spiral higher and higher as inflation takes over.


Wow! Look at all these deficit hawks come out of the woodwork! Just for consistency's sake, can you take a moment to condemn the Obama administration for nearly doubling the national debt in 8 years and adding massive new spending programs? That should be an easy, unoffensive request.


The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9011
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:25 pm

seb146 wrote:
The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.


Snopes isn't an authority on anything. And when comparing administrations, make sure you use the same time interval. The article compares two years of the Obama administration to eight years of the Bush administration.

As typical for shoddy Snopes pieces, the article is also devoid of any context why the various administrations spent what they did.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:25 pm

GOP saying economic growth will pay for the cuts - though financial/market analyst Jim Rogers says a crash is coming worse than anything we've seen.....

http://www.businessinsider.com/jim-rogers-worst-crash-lifetime-coming-2017-6
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 5929
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:29 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Guys, it's a fantasy to believe you can time the market. Professionals can't do it and neither can you. Just set your asset allocation to a risk level where you can tolerate the bears with the bulls and then leave it alone. Attempting to time the market is the biggest reason why retail investors often experience below-market returns.

I don't time the market. But what goes up must come down. It's the natural order of things.

DfwRevolution wrote:
Wow! Look at all these deficit hawks come out of the woodwork! Just for consistency's sake, can you take a moment to condemn the Obama administration for nearly doubling the national debt in 8 years and adding massive new spending programs? That should be an easy, unoffensive request.

Since you're mocking us for being concerned about debt, I assume you will not be a deficit hawk when Democrats return to power, right? I mean...you don't care this time around so you're not being consistent.

And by the way, there WAS a way to tamp down the debt which Congress and Obama signed off on. It was called sequester. You may remember that since you and your side complained about it. Even as a placeholder until further reforms were made was good enough.

Do I want the debt to go down? Absolutely. What I disagree with is cutting social programs while keeping defense intact (or boosting it) and/or giving tax cuts. If government needs to tighten its belt, ALL areas should feel the pain.

And since you like using household examples, here's one:

A family runs a credit card for everything and cannot pay off the balance every month. The family needs the credit card active (it can't just stop making purchases). It can either reduce its spending by shopping more efficiently and using their resources wisely and/or increase revenues (adults take a second job). Under what scenario will the family's credit card balance be resolved if the adults decide to take a paycut from their jobs?


DfwRevolution wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
After decades of working, the GOP just effectively brought slavery back, since you can not even get out by moving.


What a gross and obscene comment.

This tax reform package allows people to keep more of what they earn. Everything else is just details. I personally wish the revenue impact was deficit neutral or deficit reducing, but there are major wins in this reform benefiting all Americans that are worth it.

1. What do people keep? As an example the Senate version would tax tuition waivers as income for students. Doesn't seem like a tax cut for student. Here's another example: a company in the process of moving can write off its moving expenses. An employee being forced to move with the company on their own dime does not have that privilege. A company can write off its supplies purchases. A teacher cannot do that.

2. What major wins? By all means, list them.

DfwRevolution wrote:
The only scenario where taxes increase on any income group is if the rates sunset in 2027. There's a zero percent chance that will be allowed to happen. The effects of this bill would actually make the U.S. tax code more progressive and shift more tax burden to high-income earners.
It's interesting that you want liberals to know about the perils of making predictions but you don't apply them to yourself. Zero percent chance? Just exactly how did you come up with that?

And here's the interesting part: if these truly are tax cuts for all Americans, why is there a sunset provision on them but not for corporations?

DfwRevolution wrote:
On the corporate tax side, these reforms will make American. businesses more competitive to the direct benefit of American workers. On the personal income tax side, these reforms will lower or flatten the tax burden for all Americans. These are pro-growth, pro-family, and pro-individual policies that are fair and will force further reforms at the state and local level. It isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have today.
Oh...that is so cute. Thinking that business will become more competitive because of these cuts. You know what they'll do with them? Pay down debt, give out bigger bonuses to executives, and buy back shares. But you don't have to believe me. You can read a source or even watch it here.

DfwRevoluton wrote:
Snopes isn't an authority on anything. And when comparing administrations, make sure you use the same time interval. The article compares two years of the Obama administration to eight years of the Bush administration.

As typical for shoddy Snopes pieces, the article is also devoid of any context why the various administrations spent what they did.

In other words: "I don't like that my views are being proved wrong so I will question any source that does not validate my view and dismiss it as fake or liberal".
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
seb146
Posts: 15685
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:49 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The debt increased by 50% to 200% under Republicans. Under two Democrats, the debt increased about 35%.

https://www.snopes.com/politics/politic ... aldebt.asp

But, yes, Republicans are so fiscally responsible.


Snopes isn't an authority on anything.


Except setting facts straight.

As typical for shoddy Snopes pieces, the article is also devoid of any context why the various administrations spent what they did.


Spending on war and weapons and military and tax breaks for the wealthy.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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bgm
Posts: 1358
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:34 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I love winning


Just out of curiosity, what part of the bill makes you think you're "winning"?

I guess Russia got what it wanted. Destabilize the enemy and send it down the crapper. People like you are so blinded by your partisan BS that you can't even see it. Perhaps this clusterf**kery is what the US deserves?
"When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat." -George Carlin
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:53 pm

question? did they really take out the foreign airlines tax bill at the last minute? someone said they did.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/senate-tax ... 1511784001

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