Calder
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:48 pm

This thread is an awesome read.

The mental gymnastics, and hilarious deflections are astounding.

Dutchy, you're a more patient man than I!
C. T.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That's just funny. Fine, don't care what you think anymore, sorry. Good luck to you, my Russian friend.

Good luck to you, my Dutch friend. Come back when you're ready to dialogue, I'll wait.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:52 pm

Calder wrote:
This thread is an awesome read.

The mental gymnastics, and hilarious deflections are astounding.

Dutchy, you're a more patient man than I!

I'm not surprised that you have so a bad understanding considering the amount of propaganda that you are fed since childhood.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:19 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That's just funny. Fine, don't care what you think anymore, sorry. Good luck to you, my Russian friend.

Good luck to you, my Dutch friend. Come back when you're ready to dialogue, I'll wait.



Remember what I said in the beginning of this thread :white:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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ual747den
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:54 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Megalomania............

Contradixie in terminis: either I am lying, which means I know the truth and I consciously telling you something else or I am brainwashed with propaganda and I believe this propaganda and thus I am not lying. You can't have it both, so what is it my Russian friend?

The economy of the CCCP (GDP per capita):
$5,800 (1982 est.) (Nominal; 32nd)
$9,211 (1991 est.) (GNP; 28th)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_o ... viet_Union

By comparisment:
USA: 14.438,98 USD (1982); 24.180 USD (1991)
The Netherlands: 10.931,34 USD (1982); 21.454,86 USD (1991)

Yeah, the people in the USSR were as rich as the people in the west................... Damn I must be brainwashed to think otherwise.


Why to consider the GDP in dollars is stupid?

The cost of surgery laparotomy in USA
Image
Image
Image

The cost of surgery laparotomy in Russia: for free in a public hospital. In private clinics the cost is ~$500.

If we do conditionally thousand operations in the United States and operations in Russia, the boost to GDP will be US $55 029 310, and in Russia only $500 000. And that is assuming that Russia will operate only in private clinics. An equal volume of works and services, in the GDP statistics Russia will give US 1:110.

It's everything you need to know about the rating of countries by GDP.


Since you bring this up let me ask you, do you ever wonder why the most wealthy people in Russia go to the West where it is FAR more expensive for their medical treatment? Because the treatment is so much more advanced than you can find anywhere in Russia.

If you look at that bill you will see that while the treatment is very expensive, the majority of the fees are covered by insurance so the actual cost to the person getting the treatment is not that much. Another thing that people from outside of the USA don't seem to understand is that in the US a person cannot be denied emergency medical treatment. When you walk into an emergency room in the USA you will get treatment regardless of your ability to pay.
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:37 am

ual747den wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Megalomania............

Contradixie in terminis: either I am lying, which means I know the truth and I consciously telling you something else or I am brainwashed with propaganda and I believe this propaganda and thus I am not lying. You can't have it both, so what is it my Russian friend?

The economy of the CCCP (GDP per capita):
$5,800 (1982 est.) (Nominal; 32nd)
$9,211 (1991 est.) (GNP; 28th)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_o ... viet_Union

By comparisment:
USA: 14.438,98 USD (1982); 24.180 USD (1991)
The Netherlands: 10.931,34 USD (1982); 21.454,86 USD (1991)

Yeah, the people in the USSR were as rich as the people in the west................... Damn I must be brainwashed to think otherwise.


Why to consider the GDP in dollars is stupid?

The cost of surgery laparotomy in USA
Image
Image
Image

The cost of surgery laparotomy in Russia: for free in a public hospital. In private clinics the cost is ~$500.

If we do conditionally thousand operations in the United States and operations in Russia, the boost to GDP will be US $55 029 310, and in Russia only $500 000. And that is assuming that Russia will operate only in private clinics. An equal volume of works and services, in the GDP statistics Russia will give US 1:110.

It's everything you need to know about the rating of countries by GDP.


Since you bring this up let me ask you, do you ever wonder why the most wealthy people in Russia go to the West where it is FAR more expensive for their medical treatment? Because the treatment is so much more advanced than you can find anywhere in Russia.

If you look at that bill you will see that while the treatment is very expensive, the majority of the fees are covered by insurance so the actual cost to the person getting the treatment is not that much. Another thing that people from outside of the USA don't seem to understand is that in the US a person cannot be denied emergency medical treatment. When you walk into an emergency room in the USA you will get treatment regardless of your ability to pay.


Because the treatment is so much more advanced than you can find anywhere in Russia.

It is a common misconception. In fact, in Russia the level of medicine is higher than in many Western countries. But there are certain disease, number of treatment professionals which measured a maximum of dozens around the world. That is why many rich people are treated abroad, by the way, most of the oligarchs treated not in Europe or the United States. Basically, they are going to be treated in Israel.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:14 am

Quite an interesting article in the magazine Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/r ... 84972.html

I'd add a small detail: in Slavic mythology, Baba Yaga is not a representative of evil as such - it's somewhere on the border between good and evil, and rather maintains a balance between the definitely evil and definitely good character. So, in fairy tales, she presents an ugly old woman, a witch who lives deep in the woods and devours lost travelers. However, she at the same time it protects the forest and nature, fights with the representatives of evil forces and helps the heroes of fairy tales in their exploits. In General, the image of Baba Yaga is a reference rather to the pre-Christian pagan beliefs, sorcerers and wizardrs, and is the guardian of memory and tradi Slavic peoples, the roots of which are lost somewhere in the dark ages.

Therefore, the comparison of Putin with the image of Baba Yaga looks pretty juicy on the background of all this context.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:57 pm

another interesting article from the BBC russian about how the opposition moved to Holland and was disappointed in how Europe and European values: http://www.bbc.com/russian/features-42456593
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:31 pm

video about the children's camp "Artek" in Crimea::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_mMOve9WNA&t=8s
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
another interesting article from the BBC russian about how the opposition moved to Holland and was disappointed in how Europe and European values: http://www.bbc.com/russian/features-42456593


Sounds like a very intolerant narrowminded person, to be honest. There are consequences to one's actions and an independent judge will look at all the circumstances and will have a verdict. There are some "facts" mentioned in the article which cannot happen in the Netherlands, like just choosing your antibiotics at a pharmacy, not possible I would take his story with a grain a salt.
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
another interesting article from the BBC russian about how the opposition moved to Holland and was disappointed in how Europe and European values: http://www.bbc.com/russian/features-42456593


Sounds like a very intolerant narrowminded person, to be honest. There are consequences to one's actions and an independent judge will look at all the circumstances and will have a verdict. There are some "facts" mentioned in the article which cannot happen in the Netherlands, like just choosing your antibiotics at a pharmacy, not possible I would take his story with a grain a salt.


When we say that almost everyone in the West declared the "fighter against the Putin regime" - are either frauds or mentally ill people don't believe us. We also talked about Pavlensky, who eventually fled to France as a "political refugee". By the way, as he there now? Have not planted, or was the court?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:31 pm

That is what you get from this article? That's why you showed it to us?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That is what you get from this article? That's why you showed it to us?

About what specific article are you talking about? About fugitive opposition? It's simple - he broke the law in Russia, but shouted at the same time that he does it "against Putin". When he escaped to Europe from Russia after he came to arrest, he continued to break the law, and accustomed to living in Russia. Somehow, instead of calling him a fighter for justice, in Europe, it just decided to arrest. By the way, in Russia the reason for the arrest may not be a "suspicion that you may commit any crime" - that we considered savagery and violation of human rights. Without hard evidence of your guilt, you may be detained for up to 72 hours, not more. In General, we see from the article how the changed attitude towards Europe, a fugitive opposition leader, and learn fun details which shows that in Europe the rights of citizens infringed to a much greater extent than in Russia.
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:57 pm

Scorpius wrote:
he broke the law in Russia,

Until Russia's judicial system actually demonstrates that it is independent of the Russian leadership you will find that many do not find the court's ruling to be fair and impartial. That is a big problem for Russia nowadays. The courts, judiciary, and law enforcement are not able to perform their tasks (writ large) successfully, they will instead be tools and used as the leadership sees fit at key times and against perceived adversaries.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:05 pm

No it doesn't. A very twisted way of reading the article.

So in Russia, he was convicted for article 319 for insulted Vladimir Poetin.

In the Netherlands, you can be detained or nine hours (https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/verdachte/aanhouding) and then you will be seen by the assistant prosecutor and he can decide to detain you for a longer period.

I think there are a few things in this tail that don't add up and detainment for a crime not committed is one thing. That bar is very high.
Preparation of a crime might be punishable, but that only goes for crimes in the highest level. You and I don't know the specifics, so we can't tell what really happened here.

And if he does something against the law, he will be punished just like everyone else. Why not? The crime in Russia was being against Putin and that is in another league, that is Russian government helping your Putin saying in power. You must understand the difference, right?
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:10 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
he broke the law in Russia,

Until Russia's judicial system actually demonstrates that it is independent of the Russian leadership you will find that many do not find the court's ruling to be fair and impartial. That is a big problem for Russia nowadays. The courts, judiciary, and law enforcement are not able to perform their tasks (writ large) successfully, they will instead be tools and used as the leadership sees fit at key times and against perceived adversaries.

Tugg

Have you ever been in a Russian court? Or maybe you can give specific examples of when a Russian court handed down unjust decisions? I'm not inclined to trust the General phrases of the person who is about Russia knows only the propaganda of the Western media.
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:13 pm

Scorpius wrote:
I'm not inclined to trust the General phrases of the person who is about Russia knows only the propaganda of the Western media.

Please state to me sources you won't throw out as biased. As far as I have seen you only accept/believe the Russian propaganda/media. But if you can identify independent sources I'll provide you the information. The Russian judiciaries lack of independence is well documented.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:14 am

In Russian media there is a tradition at the end of the year article about famous people who have died over the past year: https://utraty2017.tass.ru/?utm_source= ... interesnoe

Certainly in the Western media there is a similar tradition, could you provide links to such publications in your countries?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:21 am

You didn't answer a very basic, yet very interesting question: Please state to me sources you won't throw out as biased.
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:23 am

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I'm not inclined to trust the General phrases of the person who is about Russia knows only the propaganda of the Western media.

Please state to me sources you won't throw out as biased. As far as I have seen you only accept/believe the Russian propaganda/media. But if you can identify independent sources I'll provide you the information. The Russian judiciaries lack of independence is well documented.

Tugg

Any source can be considered reliable or not only after the study and comparison of facts described there. In terms of Russian judicial system I for the last five years got to know her quite well, having participated in more than fifteen trials at six or more processes (I just lost count, so figures are approximate).
So any sources I will study according to your own experience with the Russian judicial system. I'm sorry, but statements like "Russian courts are wrong because I said so" is not evidence, and I won't consider seriously. If you have claims to the Russian judicial system, let us consider specific cases. For example, do you tell me about the case, in respect of which made in your opinion the sentence unjust, because say what the rule of law, in your opinion, were violated, and cite the source from which you took information. And I will objectively analyze each case. This format of dialogue you want?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:30 am

Scorpius wrote:
It is a common misconception. In fact, in Russia the level of medicine is higher than in many Western countries. But there are certain disease, number of treatment professionals which measured a maximum of dozens around the world. That is why many rich people are treated abroad, by the way, most of the oligarchs treated not in Europe or the United States. Basically, they are going to be treated in Israel.


Please provide us evidence that the level of medicine in Russia is higher than in many Western countries. And that means the level of medicine provided for the general population, not to Putin and his oligarchs.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:34 am

Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I'm not inclined to trust the General phrases of the person who is about Russia knows only the propaganda of the Western media.

Please state to me sources you won't throw out as biased. As far as I have seen you only accept/believe the Russian propaganda/media. But if you can identify independent sources I'll provide you the information. The Russian judiciaries lack of independence is well documented.

Tugg

Any source can be considered reliable or not only after the study and comparison of facts described there. In terms of Russian judicial system I for the last five years got to know her quite well, having participated in more than fifteen trials at six or more processes (I just lost count, so figures are approximate).
So any sources I will study according to your own experience with the Russian judicial system. I'm sorry, but statements like "Russian courts are wrong because I said so" is not evidence, and I won't consider seriously. If you have claims to the Russian judicial system, let us consider specific cases. For example, do you tell me about the case, in respect of which made in your opinion the sentence unjust, because say what the rule of law, in your opinion, were violated, and cite the source from which you took information. And I will objectively analyze each case. This format of dialogue you want?


The anecdotical evidence is no evidence at all. Do I understand you correctly that you will only believe something which you experienced yourself? And you will not believe any international comparison?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
No it doesn't. A very twisted way of reading the article.

So in Russia, he was convicted for article 319 for insulted Vladimir Poetin.

In the Netherlands, you can be detained or nine hours (https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/verdachte/aanhouding) and then you will be seen by the assistant prosecutor and he can decide to detain you for a longer period.

I think there are a few things in this tail that don't add up and detainment for a crime not committed is one thing. That bar is very high.
Preparation of a crime might be punishable, but that only goes for crimes in the highest level. You and I don't know the specifics, so we can't tell what really happened here.

And if he does something against the law, he will be punished just like everyone else. Why not? The crime in Russia was being against Putin and that is in another league, that is Russian government helping your Putin saying in power. You must understand the difference, right?



That is one twisted interpretation you have there.

This dude, Pavlensky did exactly what he did in Paris to the doors of the FSB headquarters. He was not thrown in jail and was only fined for hooliganism.

Why is he in jail in France for the same criminal act that had him walking free in Russia?

I think that the opressive Macron regime must go! :D
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:04 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No it doesn't. A very twisted way of reading the article.

So in Russia, he was convicted for article 319 for insulted Vladimir Poetin.

In the Netherlands, you can be detained or nine hours (https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/verdachte/aanhouding) and then you will be seen by the assistant prosecutor and he can decide to detain you for a longer period.

I think there are a few things in this tail that don't add up and detainment for a crime not committed is one thing. That bar is very high.
Preparation of a crime might be punishable, but that only goes for crimes in the highest level. You and I don't know the specifics, so we can't tell what really happened here.

And if he does something against the law, he will be punished just like everyone else. Why not? The crime in Russia was being against Putin and that is in another league, that is Russian government helping your Putin saying in power. You must understand the difference, right?



That is one twisted interpretation you have there.

This dude, Pavlensky did exactly what he did in Paris to the doors of the FSB headquarters. He was not thrown in jail and was only fined for hooliganism.

Why is he in jail in France for the same criminal act that had him walking free in Russia?

I think that the opressive Macron regime must go! :D


We weren't talking about him, but some other dude. Why do you elect to take my quote out of context?

Furthermore, there are a lot o other questions remain unanswered by you, so why do you elect to react to this and not all the other questions about your unverified statements?
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WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:46 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is what you get from this article? That's why you showed it to us?

About what specific article are you talking about? About fugitive opposition? It's simple - he broke the law in Russia, but shouted at the same time that he does it "against Putin".


All the thieving oligarchs are tagged "morally superior dissident" in the west. ..
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:55 pm

WIederling wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is what you get from this article? That's why you showed it to us?

About what specific article are you talking about? About fugitive opposition? It's simple - he broke the law in Russia, but shouted at the same time that he does it "against Putin".


All the thieving oligarchs are tagged "morally superior dissident" in the west. ..


Quite a generalization again. Anyhow, this article isn't about an oligarch, so first read the article and then react to it.
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WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:28 pm

Scorpius wrote:
About what specific article are you talking about? About fugitive opposition? It's simple - he broke the law in Russia, but shouted at the same time that he does it "against Putin".


Dutchy wrote:
Quite a generalization again. Anyhow, this article isn't about an oligarch, so first read the article and then react to it.


Keep calm. Take a towel. The end is nigh.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:29 pm

WIederling wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
About what specific article are you talking about? About fugitive opposition? It's simple - he broke the law in Russia, but shouted at the same time that he does it "against Putin".


Dutchy wrote:
Quite a generalization again. Anyhow, this article isn't about an oligarch, so first read the article and then react to it.


Keep calm. Take a towel. The end is nigh.


Why you deliberately take out the thing I was reacting to? Why this frame? It is just irritating that you chose to be trolling, instead of being more constructive and really add to the discussion. I have to give Scorpius some credit, he tries, you do not, you only troll.
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I have to give Scorpius some credit, he tries, you do not, you only troll.


mirror brightly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toFx5LEZ_-k

initially I took you to be a bit over excited and misguided with potentially a migratory background.
currently my assessment is that you are a True Troll (TM).
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:52 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I have to give Scorpius some credit, he tries, you do not, you only troll.


mirror brightly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toFx5LEZ_-k

initially I took you to be a bit over excited and misguided with potentially a migratory background.
currently my assessment is that you are a True Troll (TM).


lol, the attack is the best form of defense, right. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Please state to me sources you won't throw out as biased. As far as I have seen you only accept/believe the Russian propaganda/media. But if you can identify independent sources I'll provide you the information. The Russian judiciaries lack of independence is well documented.

Tugg

Any source can be considered reliable or not only after the study and comparison of facts described there. In terms of Russian judicial system I for the last five years got to know her quite well, having participated in more than fifteen trials at six or more processes (I just lost count, so figures are approximate).
So any sources I will study according to your own experience with the Russian judicial system. I'm sorry, but statements like "Russian courts are wrong because I said so" is not evidence, and I won't consider seriously. If you have claims to the Russian judicial system, let us consider specific cases. For example, do you tell me about the case, in respect of which made in your opinion the sentence unjust, because say what the rule of law, in your opinion, were violated, and cite the source from which you took information. And I will objectively analyze each case. This format of dialogue you want?


The anecdotical evidence is no evidence at all. Do I understand you correctly that you will only believe something which you experienced yourself? And you will not believe any international comparison?


I always rely in their arguments on the experience that I had myself is a more verifiable source than people who do not have such experience. Take some simple conclusions:
1. You may not know about the situation in Russia than I, since I live in Russia, not you.
2. I can't speculate on what sources of information are more truthful towards others, without seeing examples of such sources and not examining the information that is represented there.
3. I specifically try to choose sources of information that are not "Pro-government", if you noticed - I got links to articles in the magazine der Spiegel, and from the Russian branch of the BBC.(Why would you say that these stories are Putin's propaganda? Or Russian hackers already got there?)
By the way, I had an interesting question about the level of openness of the press in Russia, you can easily find a translation into Russian language articles from major world publications. Is there something similar in Europe in relation to the Russian media? Or RT is the only one who introduces the European audience with the Russian view of the world?
And again, one of the leading opposition media in Russia, occupying a Pro-Western position, the radio "Echo of Moscow", financed by the public Corporation "Gazprom". Do you have such examples, when the Pro-Russian opposition newspaper was funded by the States of Europe?
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:35 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Any source can be considered reliable or not only after the study and comparison of facts described there. In terms of Russian judicial system I for the last five years got to know her quite well, having participated in more than fifteen trials at six or more processes (I just lost count, so figures are approximate).
So any sources I will study according to your own experience with the Russian judicial system. I'm sorry, but statements like "Russian courts are wrong because I said so" is not evidence, and I won't consider seriously. If you have claims to the Russian judicial system, let us consider specific cases. For example, do you tell me about the case, in respect of which made in your opinion the sentence unjust, because say what the rule of law, in your opinion, were violated, and cite the source from which you took information. And I will objectively analyze each case. This format of dialogue you want?


The anecdotical evidence is no evidence at all. Do I understand you correctly that you will only believe something which you experienced yourself? And you will not believe any international comparison?


I always rely in their arguments on the experience that I had myself is a more verifiable source than people who do not have such experience. Take some simple conclusions:
1. You may not know about the situation in Russia than I, since I live in Russia, not you.
2. I can't speculate on what sources of information are more truthful towards others, without seeing examples of such sources and not examining the information that is represented there.
3. I specifically try to choose sources of information that are not "Pro-government", if you noticed - I got links to articles in the magazine der Spiegel, and from the Russian branch of the BBC.(Why would you say that these stories are Putin's propaganda? Or Russian hackers already got there?)
By the way, I had an interesting question about the level of openness of the press in Russia, you can easily find a translation into Russian language articles from major world publications. Is there something similar in Europe in relation to the Russian media? Or RT is the only one who introduces the European audience with the Russian view of the world?
And again, one of the leading opposition media in Russia, occupying a Pro-Western position, the radio "Echo of Moscow", financed by the public Corporation "Gazprom". Do you have such examples, when the Pro-Russian opposition newspaper was funded by the States of Europe?


Like I said many times, the anecdotical evidence is no evidence. You have a limited view, per definition. I relay on international reports about Russia and comparisons by NGO's or the UN or internationally renowned research agencies. All of which you have rejected.

The Russian view is perfectly worded in the European press by correspondence. Russia Today is propaganda so not a serious news source. And something you do not want to hear: Russia isn't that important to invest in something like that.

Echo of Moscow is an interesting case, thanks for pointing this out. But I also believe Dutch media entrepreneur: Derk Sauer, he said he saw a decline in independent media. And that is reenforced by international research.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The anecdotical evidence is no evidence at all. Do I understand you correctly that you will only believe something which you experienced yourself? And you will not believe any international comparison?


I always rely in their arguments on the experience that I had myself is a more verifiable source than people who do not have such experience. Take some simple conclusions:
1. You may not know about the situation in Russia than I, since I live in Russia, not you.
2. I can't speculate on what sources of information are more truthful towards others, without seeing examples of such sources and not examining the information that is represented there.
3. I specifically try to choose sources of information that are not "Pro-government", if you noticed - I got links to articles in the magazine der Spiegel, and from the Russian branch of the BBC.(Why would you say that these stories are Putin's propaganda? Or Russian hackers already got there?)
By the way, I had an interesting question about the level of openness of the press in Russia, you can easily find a translation into Russian language articles from major world publications. Is there something similar in Europe in relation to the Russian media? Or RT is the only one who introduces the European audience with the Russian view of the world?
And again, one of the leading opposition media in Russia, occupying a Pro-Western position, the radio "Echo of Moscow", financed by the public Corporation "Gazprom". Do you have such examples, when the Pro-Russian opposition newspaper was funded by the States of Europe?


Like I said many times, the anecdotical evidence is no evidence. You have a limited view, per definition. I relay on international reports about Russia and comparisons by NGO's or the UN or internationally renowned research agencies. All of which you have rejected.

The Russian view is perfectly worded in the European press by correspondence. Russia Today is propaganda so not a serious news source. And something you do not want to hear: Russia isn't that important to invest in something like that.

Echo of Moscow is an interesting case, thanks for pointing this out. But I also believe Dutch media entrepreneur: Derk Sauer, he said he saw a decline in independent media. And that is reenforced by international research.

Go back to point 1 simple rules: you can't know better than me about the situation in Russia.

Exactly the same can be said about the reports of international organizations. First and foremost why they should not believe these organizations are partisan, they are part of the propaganda machine of the West. That is, they can, in their reports to write anything - neither I nor you can prove or disprove the information that they wrote in the report.
For example, if you say that Putin eats for Breakfast Christian babies - you can not verify this assertion. You can only accept one point of view on this issue, which to a greater extent will correspond to your view of the world.
And here plays a role that from childhood stuck in your head propaganda. You believe the source that for you seem most truthful, or who have a positive reputation in your opinion. Only here the whole secret is that reputation is created through financial expenses in the first place, and who has the most money in the modern world?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 6010
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:27 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

I always rely in their arguments on the experience that I had myself is a more verifiable source than people who do not have such experience. Take some simple conclusions:
1. You may not know about the situation in Russia than I, since I live in Russia, not you.
2. I can't speculate on what sources of information are more truthful towards others, without seeing examples of such sources and not examining the information that is represented there.
3. I specifically try to choose sources of information that are not "Pro-government", if you noticed - I got links to articles in the magazine der Spiegel, and from the Russian branch of the BBC.(Why would you say that these stories are Putin's propaganda? Or Russian hackers already got there?)
By the way, I had an interesting question about the level of openness of the press in Russia, you can easily find a translation into Russian language articles from major world publications. Is there something similar in Europe in relation to the Russian media? Or RT is the only one who introduces the European audience with the Russian view of the world?
And again, one of the leading opposition media in Russia, occupying a Pro-Western position, the radio "Echo of Moscow", financed by the public Corporation "Gazprom". Do you have such examples, when the Pro-Russian opposition newspaper was funded by the States of Europe?


Like I said many times, the anecdotical evidence is no evidence. You have a limited view, per definition. I relay on international reports about Russia and comparisons by NGO's or the UN or internationally renowned research agencies. All of which you have rejected.

The Russian view is perfectly worded in the European press by correspondence. Russia Today is propaganda so not a serious news source. And something you do not want to hear: Russia isn't that important to invest in something like that.

Echo of Moscow is an interesting case, thanks for pointing this out. But I also believe Dutch media entrepreneur: Derk Sauer, he said he saw a decline in independent media. And that is reenforced by international research.

Go back to point 1 simple rules: you can't know better than me about the situation in Russia.

Exactly the same can be said about the reports of international organizations. First and foremost why they should not believe these organizations are partisan, they are part of the propaganda machine of the West. That is, they can, in their reports to write anything - neither I nor you can prove or disprove the information that they wrote in the report.
For example, if you say that Putin eats for Breakfast Christian babies - you can not verify this assertion. You can only accept one point of view on this issue, which to a greater extent will correspond to your view of the world.
And here plays a role that from childhood stuck in your head propaganda. You believe the source that for you seem most truthful, or who have a positive reputation in your opinion. Only here the whole secret is that reputation is created through financial expenses in the first place, and who has the most money in the modern world?


Go back to one simple rule: anecdotical evidence is no evidence. What happens in your little world isn't representing Russia as a whole, just as what happens in my little world isn't representing The Netherlands. The first rule of the academics.

And now you make all kind of assertions about me and the western world, if you would truly believe in your statement of rule 1, you can never do this, because of no personal experience. So in that alone, we can all see that you not truly believe in that statement. As well as all the other statements you have made about Russia itself, you cannot experience everything yourself, so why should we believe you, if you truly believe in rule number 1?

So your whole statement is full of holes and contradictions.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:29 pm

Scorpius wrote:
and who has the most money in the modern world?


It is said to be Putin :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
and who has the most money in the modern world?


It is said to be Putin :lol:

the cat threw kittens? Putin is to blame!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Like I said many times, the anecdotical evidence is no evidence. You have a limited view, per definition. I relay on international reports about Russia and comparisons by NGO's or the UN or internationally renowned research agencies. All of which you have rejected.

The Russian view is perfectly worded in the European press by correspondence. Russia Today is propaganda so not a serious news source. And something you do not want to hear: Russia isn't that important to invest in something like that.

Echo of Moscow is an interesting case, thanks for pointing this out. But I also believe Dutch media entrepreneur: Derk Sauer, he said he saw a decline in independent media. And that is reenforced by international research.

Go back to point 1 simple rules: you can't know better than me about the situation in Russia.

Exactly the same can be said about the reports of international organizations. First and foremost why they should not believe these organizations are partisan, they are part of the propaganda machine of the West. That is, they can, in their reports to write anything - neither I nor you can prove or disprove the information that they wrote in the report.
For example, if you say that Putin eats for Breakfast Christian babies - you can not verify this assertion. You can only accept one point of view on this issue, which to a greater extent will correspond to your view of the world.
And here plays a role that from childhood stuck in your head propaganda. You believe the source that for you seem most truthful, or who have a positive reputation in your opinion. Only here the whole secret is that reputation is created through financial expenses in the first place, and who has the most money in the modern world?


Go back to one simple rule: anecdotical evidence is no evidence. What happens in your little world isn't representing Russia as a whole, just as what happens in my little world isn't representing The Netherlands. The first rule of the academics.

And now you make all kind of assertions about me and the western world, if you would truly believe in your statement of rule 1, you can never do this, because of no personal experience. So in that alone, we can all see that you not truly believe in that statement. As well as all the other statements you have made about Russia itself, you cannot experience everything yourself, so why should we believe you, if you truly believe in rule number 1?

So your whole statement is full of holes and contradictions.


I'm talking about the level of awareness about the events and conditions of life in Russia. You can't know them better than I do. And in your line of reasoning can be challenged any competence, even the competence of the surgeon who does the surgery. But I doubt that sane someone would teach the professional what he knows.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:26 pm

You are comparing yourself that you know as much about Russia as a whole as a surgeon of his profession? Do I understand that right?

But ok fine, let leave that at one side. More importantly, you accept than other sources than just the small circle around you and rule 1 isn't absolute.

I never said I knew the situation in Russia better than you, you asserted that. I just look up the information provided by independent NGO's. which you keep rejecting. So basically you reject fact for your personal alternative facts.

You stated that the health care in Russia is better than in many western countries. But again, how do you know? You claim to be an expert (surgeon remember) about Russia, but how can you compare it to other countries, you can't claim to be an expert about health care everywhere, now can you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:44 pm

The film "White sun of the desert" - one of the masterpieces of the Soviet cinema. There was a tradition, according to which every spaceship crew before you start watching this film.
The link film is available with subtitles: https://sovietmoviesonline.com/ru/adven ... styni.html
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:46 pm

Ok, thanks, but what has that got to do anything? So I will repeat myself for your convenience:

You are comparing yourself that you know as much about Russia as a whole as a surgeon of his profession? Do I understand that right?

But ok fine, let leave that at one side. More importantly, you accept than other sources than just the small circle around you and rule 1 isn't absolute.

I never said I knew the situation in Russia better than you, you asserted that. I just look up the information provided by independent NGO's. which you keep rejecting. So basically you reject fact for your personal alternative facts.

You stated that the health care in Russia is better than in many western countries. But again, how do you know? You claim to be an expert (surgeon remember) about Russia, but how can you compare it to other countries, you can't claim to be an expert about health care everywhere, now can you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
Posts: 7859
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, thanks, but what has that got to do anything? So I will repeat myself for your convenience:

You are comparing yourself that you know as much about Russia as a whole as a surgeon of his profession? Do I understand that right?

But ok fine, let leave that at one side. More importantly, you accept than other sources than just the small circle around you and rule 1 isn't absolute.

I never said I knew the situation in Russia better than you, you asserted that. I just look up the information provided by independent NGO's. which you keep rejecting. So basically you reject fact for your personal alternative facts.

You stated that the health care in Russia is better than in many western countries. But again, how do you know? You claim to be an expert (surgeon remember) about Russia, but how can you compare it to other countries, you can't claim to be an expert about health care everywhere, now can you?

Dutchy, as near as I can tell he is the Russian equivalent of a Trump voter/supporter. Things are better in Russia since Putin came to power so that is all the proof that is needed. No outside or independent source of information is accepted or acceptable, he has to agree with what the source says before he will accept it. So that's about it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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notaxonrotax
Posts: 1209
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:15 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:


1. You may not know about the situation in Russia than I, since I live in Russia, not you.


By that logic, you can't possibly know better about Western Europe because you don't live there while others in this discussion do.

Oh no wait, you can judge the situations in other countries while foreigners "don't have a clue" about Russia; and therefore they are wrong. Seems like a fair standpoint to start an "open" conversation.

What is your "truth" about MH17?
It was a rhetorical question, don't worry.

By the way, loving the way your Presidential "election" is gearing up....Putin's main rival is not allowed to run.
Well, if Navalny makes too much noise he may may well be poisoned accidentally anyway.....or just plainly shot in the street outside the Kremlin.

No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, thanks, but what has that got to do anything? So I will repeat myself for your convenience:

You are comparing yourself that you know as much about Russia as a whole as a surgeon of his profession? Do I understand that right?

But ok fine, let leave that at one side. More importantly, you accept than other sources than just the small circle around you and rule 1 isn't absolute.

I never said I knew the situation in Russia better than you, you asserted that. I just look up the information provided by independent NGO's. which you keep rejecting. So basically you reject fact for your personal alternative facts.

You stated that the health care in Russia is better than in many western countries. But again, how do you know? You claim to be an expert (surgeon remember) about Russia, but how can you compare it to other countries, you can't claim to be an expert about health care everywhere, now can you?

I can talk about health care in Russia, based on my own experience and on the opinion of my friends medical professionals. Good enough for you?
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:05 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


By that logic, you can't possibly know better about Western Europe because you don't live there while others in this discussion do.

Oh no wait, you can judge the situations in other countries while foreigners "don't have a clue" about Russia; and therefore they are wrong. Seems like a fair standpoint to start an "open" conversation.

What is your "truth" about MH17?
It was a rhetorical question, don't worry.

By the way, loving the way your Presidential "election" is gearing up....Putin's main rival is not allowed to run.
Well, if Navalny makes too much noise he may may well be poisoned accidentally anyway.....or just plainly shot in the street outside the Kremlin.

No Tax On Rotax

The inhabitants of Western Europe, Russia judge based on their ideas that are imposed on them by the propaganda of the Western media.
You say that the Soviet Union allegedly broke up into separate independent state, and actually part of the USSR was illegal and illegitimate. Therefore, any actions of Russia in former Soviet space are only a restoration of the initial status, and sooner or later, these territories will be United under one state. I can't assume which way it will be done and when, exactly, but the historical logic is that all these territories was a result in part of one state before and the trend towards their unification is preserved. And the collapse of the Soviet Union is an artificial process which was actively supported from the outside by Western countries. Similarly today, Western politicians are actively supported separatist sentiment in the former Russian territories. However, whatever may be said of various politicians, all these areas are United by a shared history, culture and mentality. The actions of Europe and the United States in this case is the introduction of discord in the family of Nations, inciting hatred and promote separatism.
As a result, Western policy, acting purely in their own interests, make Russia and the West's mortal enemies, and the consequences of the current policy of the West will be traced for hundreds of years. And we'll be lucky if in the end it will not end in a war of mutual destruction. Because Russia is able to destroy life on the planet, if she are forced to this.

To your question about MH17 - it was shot down by Ukrainian air defense, most likely on direct orders from the Pentagon, for the sake of creating one more information occasion to shift the blame for the crisis in Ukraine on the bad Russian. NATO forces have a history of sacrificing civilians to further their political and military interests - the United States remains the only country in history to use nuclear weapons, and immediately against civilians. Remember the Iranian Boeing, downed in the eighties Americans.



Аbout Navalny - I hope you are joking when they called him "claims solana Putin", because the sea is a clown, no one is considering it as a serious alternative to Putin. Even his own followers. In addition, according to the laws of Russia has no right to participate in elections, as it has a criminal record. What prevented him to nominate another candidate for President, choosing appropriate under the requirements of the Russian laws a person from your team?
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:16 am

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ok, thanks, but what has that got to do anything? So I will repeat myself for your convenience:

You are comparing yourself that you know as much about Russia as a whole as a surgeon of his profession? Do I understand that right?

But ok fine, let leave that at one side. More importantly, you accept than other sources than just the small circle around you and rule 1 isn't absolute.

I never said I knew the situation in Russia better than you, you asserted that. I just look up the information provided by independent NGO's. which you keep rejecting. So basically you reject fact for your personal alternative facts.

You stated that the health care in Russia is better than in many western countries. But again, how do you know? You claim to be an expert (surgeon remember) about Russia, but how can you compare it to other countries, you can't claim to be an expert about health care everywhere, now can you?

Dutchy, as near as I can tell he is the Russian equivalent of a Trump voter/supporter. Things are better in Russia since Putin came to power so that is all the proof that is needed. No outside or independent source of information is accepted or acceptable, he has to agree with what the source says before he will accept it. So that's about it.

Tugg


You can deny the fact that during Putin's presidency the situation in Russia has changed for the better, compared to the time of Yeltsin's rule?
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:24 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ok, thanks, but what has that got to do anything? So I will repeat myself for your convenience:


Dutchy, as near as I can tell he is the Russian equivalent of a Trump voter/supporter. Things are better in Russia since Putin came to power so that is all the proof that is needed. No outside or independent source of information is accepted or acceptable, he has to agree with what the source says before he will accept it. So that's about it.

Tugg


You can deny the fact that during Putin's presidency the situation in Russia has changed for the better, compared to the time of Yeltsin's rule?

You think I should deny that, why would I? Why would you suggest that someone deny things have improved?

Can you deny the fact that the situation in Russia changed for the better during Yeltsin's rule as Russia went from a dictatorial Communist state and transitioned to a nascent democracy where someone like Putin could actually be elected? Or do you think Communist rule still to the day would have been better?

You are speaking of events that occur "during" a presidency. Yeltsin was not capable of holding things together as Russia was essentially falling apart and rebuilding itself into whatever it would be going forward. Russia and its leadership had no real experience in the new governing model. Not an easy time for anyone in such a position.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6010
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
I can talk about health care in Russia, based on my own experience and on the opinion of my friends medical professionals. Good enough for you?


No! Unless you have experience in several, say 10 western European countries and have undergone 1.000 interactions in each country which are the same in each country and then you have found it worse than in Russia. If you didn't do such a study your word says nothing and is worthless, just as is mine on this subject.

That is exactly my point. It is anecdotical evidence at best for Russias health care, you have no experience of the health care system in western countries and yet you say that the Russian healthcare system is better than in several western countries. And now we have it how you think: you base your opinion on exactly nothing. I can provide you with statistics and comparison by experts in the field between different healthcare systems, but you will denounce it if Russia doesn't come on top.

And that is what is going on with our debate: you base your opinion on your feelings and I base it on facts with links to research provided to you. We can't find any common ground because of this. You live in an alternate reality and you are not sensitive for to outside facts which conflict with your own ideas, and that is extremism.
Last edited by Dutchy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 6010
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
Scorpius wrote:


By that logic, you can't possibly know better about Western Europe because you don't live there while others in this discussion do.

Oh no wait, you can judge the situations in other countries while foreigners "don't have a clue" about Russia; and therefore they are wrong. Seems like a fair standpoint to start an "open" conversation.

What is your "truth" about MH17?
It was a rhetorical question, don't worry.

By the way, loving the way your Presidential "election" is gearing up....Putin's main rival is not allowed to run.
Well, if Navalny makes too much noise he may may well be poisoned accidentally anyway.....or just plainly shot in the street outside the Kremlin.

No Tax On Rotax

The inhabitants of Western Europe, Russia judge based on their ideas that are imposed on them by the propaganda of the Western media.
You say that the Soviet Union allegedly broke up into separate independent state, and actually part of the USSR was illegal and illegitimate. Therefore, any actions of Russia in former Soviet space are only a restoration of the initial status, and sooner or later, these territories will be United under one state. I can't assume which way it will be done and when, exactly, but the historical logic is that all these territories was a result in part of one state before and the trend towards their unification is preserved. And the collapse of the Soviet Union is an artificial process which was actively supported from the outside by Western countries. Similarly today, Western politicians are actively supported separatist sentiment in the former Russian territories. However, whatever may be said of various politicians, all these areas are United by a shared history, culture and mentality. The actions of Europe and the United States in this case is the introduction of discord in the family of Nations, inciting hatred and promote separatism.
As a result, Western policy, acting purely in their own interests, make Russia and the West's mortal enemies, and the consequences of the current policy of the West will be traced for hundreds of years. And we'll be lucky if in the end it will not end in a war of mutual destruction. Because Russia is able to destroy life on the planet, if she are forced to this.

To your question about MH17 - it was shot down by Ukrainian air defense, most likely on direct orders from the Pentagon, for the sake of creating one more information occasion to shift the blame for the crisis in Ukraine on the bad Russian. NATO forces have a history of sacrificing civilians to further their political and military interests - the United States remains the only country in history to use nuclear weapons, and immediately against civilians. Remember the Iranian Boeing, downed in the eighties Americans.

Аbout Navalny - I hope you are joking when they called him "claims solana Putin", because the sea is a clown, no one is considering it as a serious alternative to Putin. Even his own followers. In addition, according to the laws of Russia has no right to participate in elections, as it has a criminal record. What prevented him to nominate another candidate for President, choosing appropriate under the requirements of the Russian laws a person from your team?


And here you go again if the majority of your countrymen thinks like you, Russia is indeed a direct threat for their neighbors. So not unreasonable to seek the protection of NATO for some countries. You blame the west for everything, and none on Russia, that is problematic to say the least.
And yes, that is the only thing about Russia: its nuclear arsenal and Putin threatened to use it, like in the Crimea. No one else threatened to actually use them in recent years, except the madmen, but only defensive.

MH17: do you have any evidence that Ukraine shot it down on orders of the Pentagon? You think it is for Russia perfectly legal to concur Ukraine, it was part of the USSR and in your twisted view, still is. 90% likely the MH17 was shot down by pro-Russian rebels or the Russian military, no conspiracy theory necessary, just a stupid mistake which has cost the lives of 298 innocent souls. But it will be proven in court what has happened, with or without the Russians which were involved.
Russia and pro-Russian opposition have shot down several airliners so what is your point with bringing up the Irian flight (Iran Air flight 655 (IR655). BTW it was an Airbus A300, not a Boeing, so even this simple fact you have got wrong.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:18 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
By the way, loving the way your Presidential "election" is gearing up....Putin's main rival is not allowed to run.
Well, if Navalny makes too much noise he may may well be poisoned accidentally anyway.....or just plainly shot in the street outside the Kremlin.

No Tax On Rotax

Wait a min - did you just call Navalny as “main rival” to Putin? Last elections, Navalny’s closest allies with alike beliefs (Nemtsov’s party) gained 0.6% of votes. It’s hard to call him a rival to anything with such results. Hence perhaps face the truth - he is nobody and has no name, inside Russia at least.
 
anrec80
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
I never said I knew the situation in Russia better than you, you asserted that. I just look up the information provided by independent NGO's. which you keep rejecting. So basically you reject fact for your personal alternative facts.


I just admire the word “independent” used when applied to “NGO”. Independent from what, whom and how? Dependent from a Russian government? Sure. Indepdndent from Western mainstream political groups? Now, this is a tougher one. Where do they get $$$ for their operation from? Western governments (USAID is an example), sponsors a-la infamous George Soros, and the likes. Will these NGOs get as much funding for their operations if they were distributing statistics that shows Russia favorably? Probably not - right? So this is the real price of the word “independent” for you. And - the words “free” and “freedom” have very similar real value. Somewhat above zero.

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