Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
I am sure the Russian state will ignore any court unfavorable towards them, as we have seen by the conviction of Russia in the Greenpeace case, The Netherlands is still waiting for the money for the damages caused by the Russian state.
As is the way it should be. Why in the hell should Russia, a sovreign state ackgowledge a bullshit decision of a treaty that Russia explicitly noted that will not comply to settlement procedures...back in 1997 when the UNCLS was signed.
Those Greenpeace goofs should be forever greatful they were released and their ship wasn't sent to the scrappers as it should have been, ya know, having been basically used as a weapon to commit the crime.
Since you mention it, however, lets put politics aside and look at that Artic Sunrise case. Objectively
Where do you see any bias in the Russian Court's decision? I mean they were fucking lucky. The piracy charges (15 years max) were changed to aggrevated hooliganism (maximum 3 years) one month into the investigation, and then the case was closed (don't confuse with charges being dropped) due to an amnesty by the Russian Government. The bail money was returned to Greenpeace and they were permitted to take their shit barge back. What more could they ask for?
Dutchy wrote:tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
I am sure the Russian state will ignore any court unfavorable towards them, as we have seen by the conviction of Russia in the Greenpeace case, The Netherlands is still waiting for the money for the damages caused by the Russian state.
As is the way it should be. Why in the hell should Russia, a sovreign state ackgowledge a bullshit decision of a treaty that Russia explicitly noted that will not comply to settlement procedures...back in 1997 when the UNCLS was signed.
Those Greenpeace goofs should be forever greatful they were released and their ship wasn't sent to the scrappers as it should have been, ya know, having been basically used as a weapon to commit the crime.
Since you mention it, however, lets put politics aside and look at that Artic Sunrise case. Objectively
Where do you see any bias in the Russian Court's decision? I mean they were fucking lucky. The piracy charges (15 years max) were changed to aggrevated hooliganism (maximum 3 years) one month into the investigation, and then the case was closed (don't confuse with charges being dropped) due to an amnesty by the Russian Government. The bail money was returned to Greenpeace and they were permitted to take their shit barge back. What more could they ask for?
Apology for doing it in the first place. You call it a bullshit decision, ok, do you have anything else to back up your "bullshit" claim? It is a serious court, with serious independent judges, they interpreted a thready Russia signed and thus acknowledges.
And I think releasing the Greenpeace activist is a political decision and the amnesty kind of proofs it. The could have asked for their ship to be returned in the state the Russian government seized it illegally, but instead it was trashed.
Scorpius wrote:Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.
Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.
According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.
And among the group, there were Russian citizens.
So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you
Scorpius wrote:Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.
According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.
And among the group, there were Russian citizens.
So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you
The statement "Among the perpetrators were Russian - it means all Russian criminals" is a deliberate lie and an attempt to denigrate the Russian.
A typical technique of Western propaganda.
Would not the specific points of international law that is allegedly violated Russia?
I remember that in the situation with the Arctic Sunrise it was not the first provocation, and Russia at first politely warned that attempts to sabotage the work of the oil platform will be regarded as aggression and criminal act. Even the Dutch government appealed, however, the Dutch government ignored all the warnings.
Dutchy wrote:tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
I am sure the Russian state will ignore any court unfavorable towards them, as we have seen by the conviction of Russia in the Greenpeace case, The Netherlands is still waiting for the money for the damages caused by the Russian state.
As is the way it should be. Why in the hell should Russia, a sovreign state ackgowledge a bullshit decision of a treaty that Russia explicitly noted that will not comply to settlement procedures...back in 1997 when the UNCLS was signed.
Those Greenpeace goofs should be forever greatful they were released and their ship wasn't sent to the scrappers as it should have been, ya know, having been basically used as a weapon to commit the crime.
Since you mention it, however, lets put politics aside and look at that Artic Sunrise case. Objectively
Where do you see any bias in the Russian Court's decision? I mean they were fucking lucky. The piracy charges (15 years max) were changed to aggrevated hooliganism (maximum 3 years) one month into the investigation, and then the case was closed (don't confuse with charges being dropped) due to an amnesty by the Russian Government. The bail money was returned to Greenpeace and they were permitted to take their shit barge back. What more could they ask for?
Apology for doing it in the first place. You call it a bullshit decision, ok, do you have anything else to back up your "bullshit" claim? It is a serious court, with serious independent judges, they interpreted a thready Russia signed and thus acknowledges.
And I think releasing the Greenpeace activist is a political decision and the amnesty kind of proofs it. The could have asked for their ship to be returned in the state the Russian government seized it illegally, but instead it was trashed.
Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.
According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.
And among the group, there were Russian citizens.
So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you
tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.
According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.
And among the group, there were Russian citizens.
So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you
Ooops, ignore my post above then.
Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.
Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.
Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.
Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:Dutchy wrote:
According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.
And among the group, there were Russian citizens.
So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you
The statement "Among the perpetrators were Russian - it means all Russian criminals" is a deliberate lie and an attempt to denigrate the Russian.
A typical technique of Western propaganda.
Would not the specific points of international law that is allegedly violated Russia?
I remember that in the situation with the Arctic Sunrise it was not the first provocation, and Russia at first politely warned that attempts to sabotage the work of the oil platform will be regarded as aggression and criminal act. Even the Dutch government appealed, however, the Dutch government ignored all the warnings.
- I said among the group were Russian citizens, not perpetrators and it certainly not means all Russians are criminals, that logic fails on so many levels. So misinterpretation on your side at best...........
- International law Russia violated, for which they were convicted: read the verdict if you are really interested, Google is your friend.
- Dutch government ignoring all warnings? It is not up to the Dutch government to say what a protest must look like, so that is bullshit. The only reason the Dutch government is involved is that Greenpeace ships are registered in The Netherlands (and a couple of Dutch citizens were on board).
Dutchy wrote:tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.
And among the group, there were Russian citizens.
So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you
Ooops, ignore my post above then.
Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.
Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.
Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.
The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?
Dutchy wrote:tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.
And among the group, there were Russian citizens.
So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you
Ooops, ignore my post above then.
Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.
Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.
Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.
The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?
Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:Dutchy wrote:
You believe what you want to believe, I realize that you will never be convinced if Russians are convicted in court, in absence probably. But you know that Russians were part of the initial investigation team, right? So no point in debating it with you since you will never admit and be convinced by any investigation besides the Russian one.
We have lost 198 soles in this mass murder and another 100 from other countries, may we please give a damn? Quite insensitive from you.
As for eastern Ukraine, if Putin will end sending Russian soldiers to the region for a nice holiday, of course, the soldiers are allowed to take a vehicle - tanks and the like - with them, and of course everybody understands that they are also allowed to take a weapon with them, it is rather dangerous there, so they need something to defend themselves. Such a shame your Russians boys are dying there, but your Putin doesn't pay homage to them since he can't admit he sends his army into Ukraine. But the OVSE is watching.
As for eastern Ukraine, if Putin will end sending Russian soldiers to the region for a nice holiday, of course, the soldiers are allowed to take a vehicle - tanks and the like - with them, and of course everybody understands that they are also allowed to take a weapon with them, it is rather dangerous there, so they need something to defend themselves. Such a shame your Russians boys are dying there, but your Putin doesn't pay homage to them since he can't admit he sends
his army into Ukraine. But the OVSE is watching.
first find the Russian soldiers with equipment.
Whether there is Russian army - Ukraine would have smoothed out a couple of weeks. One of the complaints about Putin, by the way, from the Russian people is that in the situation in the Donbas had not intervened, our troops, and dont knocked the crap out of the Ukrainian government.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/worl ... -osce.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30039004
http://eastwest.eu/en/opinions/riding-t ... in-ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ce-ukrainePutin admits Russian military presence in Ukraine for first time
Russian president concedes military intelligence officers were operating in the country but insists it’s not the same as regular Russian troops
You probably will brush aside those pesky western media and the OCSE mission. But can you do the same with Putin himself?
And ok, once again you say that Russia should go to war with Ukraine. If that is your mentality, you are basically at the level of "whoever is the strongest gets his way". And there you have the basic difference between you and me: I believe in the rule of law, you believe in the right of the strongest (tribal warfare and nationalism).
Nationalism can be a terrible thing, especially accepting no criticism to your country and the men who run it, even though confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And you, my friend, have displayed this perfectly, to put it simple for google translate: Russia good; rest of the world bad.
tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:tu204 wrote:
Ooops, ignore my post above then.
Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.
Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.
Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.
The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?
I did. Even your tribunal is not disputing the fact that in Russia's Exclusive Economic Zone the platform is Russian Sovreign Territory as are several miles of water around it. These clowns, particularly the ones with grappling hooks, tried to illegaly and agressively gain access to it (attack). Also note that under Russian regulations an oil platform is considered a critical infrastructural facility, like a nuclear power plant, a railroad or a pipeline. Therefore the operators of the platform and the Russian Forces had the right to protect it.
Now although the ship itself stayed a couple miles away, this is completely irrelevant as it and those aboard it were parties to the crime. The same as Somalian pirates launching attack boats from a "mothership", not only the attack boats are fair game, but so is the mothership.
So everything here is perfectly legal.
Now what I meant about loopholes in the Russian law: Since there was an amnesty, there was no conviction on any charge. Therefore everyone and everything arrested (minus illegal goods - be it drugs or weapons or whatever) is returned to whomever claims ownership at the time of arrest or if there are disputes, as the court decides. The condition of the ship was no doubt documented at the time of arrest (even if they tow your car here, the officer that signs off on it takes a shitload of photos and notes any significant dents or damage).
So when they got their shit back, at that time or in a reasonable timeframe afterwards they had to document any damage to their property and launch a civil suit in the local court at the district (region) where the arrest took place (Murmansk) and against the party that made the arrest, probably the Murmansk Prosecutor's Office, Murmansk Transport Police or the FSB for Murmansk Oblast. I have no clue who made that actual arrest and was responsible for the ship, but that would be clear from the papers documenting the arrest.
To sum it up, if they actually cared about getting reimbursed for damages, they could have hired a half-assed lawyer that barely passed Law School in Russia and followed the above procedure and to a high degree would have gotten some of their money at least. (Btw my little lifehack from above is now useless, I think the limitations for such a claim is 3 years). So they didn't do this and this is why they will see about 0 Dollars/Euros/Roubles
Scorpius wrote:Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:first find the Russian soldiers with equipment.
Whether there is Russian army - Ukraine would have smoothed out a couple of weeks. One of the complaints about Putin, by the way, from the Russian people is that in the situation in the Donbas had not intervened, our troops, and dont knocked the crap out of the Ukrainian government.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/worl ... -osce.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30039004
http://eastwest.eu/en/opinions/riding-t ... in-ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ce-ukrainePutin admits Russian military presence in Ukraine for first time
Russian president concedes military intelligence officers were operating in the country but insists it’s not the same as regular Russian troops
You probably will brush aside those pesky western media and the OCSE mission. But can you do the same with Putin himself?
And ok, once again you say that Russia should go to war with Ukraine. If that is your mentality, you are basically at the level of "whoever is the strongest gets his way". And there you have the basic difference between you and me: I believe in the rule of law, you believe in the right of the strongest (tribal warfare and nationalism).
Nationalism can be a terrible thing, especially accepting no criticism to your country and the men who run it, even though confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And you, my friend, have displayed this perfectly, to put it simple for google translate: Russia good; rest of the world bad.
To the question about Ukraine, the situation there now and the OSCE. That's only half an hour ago, my friend texted me about live in Luhansk region now:
[09:49] xxx: yesterday Ukrainians Pervomaisk to Stakhanov was fired, including from 152mm
[09:49] xxx: among other things, came to school and hospital
[09:50] xxx: last year in pervomaisk a kindergarten showed that twice repaired after attacks
[09:51] xxx: but the herd of those blind idiots with the flags of the OSCE riding, 'control' something there
I get the information not from deceitful Western media, or the false report of the OSCE. could I tell the people who live right there - in the East of Ukraine.
Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:Dutchy wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/worl ... -osce.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30039004
http://eastwest.eu/en/opinions/riding-t ... in-ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ce-ukraine
You probably will brush aside those pesky western media and the OCSE mission. But can you do the same with Putin himself?
And ok, once again you say that Russia should go to war with Ukraine. If that is your mentality, you are basically at the level of "whoever is the strongest gets his way". And there you have the basic difference between you and me: I believe in the rule of law, you believe in the right of the strongest (tribal warfare and nationalism).
Nationalism can be a terrible thing, especially accepting no criticism to your country and the men who run it, even though confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And you, my friend, have displayed this perfectly, to put it simple for google translate: Russia good; rest of the world bad.
To the question about Ukraine, the situation there now and the OSCE. That's only half an hour ago, my friend texted me about live in Luhansk region now:
[09:49] xxx: yesterday Ukrainians Pervomaisk to Stakhanov was fired, including from 152mm
[09:49] xxx: among other things, came to school and hospital
[09:50] xxx: last year in pervomaisk a kindergarten showed that twice repaired after attacks
[09:51] xxx: but the herd of those blind idiots with the flags of the OSCE riding, 'control' something there
I get the information not from deceitful Western media, or the false report of the OSCE. could I tell the people who live right there - in the East of Ukraine.
I perfectly accept that the Ukraine forces aren't the perfect gentlemen's either. But the main point is, Russia should bud out of Ukraine and then we, as an international community, should work to a workable solution. As long as the Russians keep these opposition forces fed with military goods and other help, it will never be resolved and your family isn't helped with that either.
Scorpius wrote:Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics?
Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics?
Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.
Tugg
Scorpius wrote:Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics?
Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.
Tugg
Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.
Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Tugger wrote:Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.
Tugg
Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.
I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.
Tugg
Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Tugger wrote:Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.
Tugg
Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.
I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.
Tugg
Dutchy wrote:Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.
I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.
Tugg
And one BUK missile system
Scorpius wrote:Dutchy wrote:Tugger wrote:I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.
Tugg
And one BUK missile system
system "BUK" in large quantities is in the Ukraine. In 2016 Ukraine had 72 complex "BUK-M1" in service.
Scorpius wrote:Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.
I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.
Tugg
These tanks were captured by the militia from storage facilities. Ukraine was the second largest military grouping in the Soviet Union, where tanks were about 10 thousand, you wonder where did it all go?
Dutchy wrote:tu204 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?
I did. Even your tribunal is not disputing the fact that in Russia's Exclusive Economic Zone the platform is Russian Sovreign Territory as are several miles of water around it. These clowns, particularly the ones with grappling hooks, tried to illegaly and agressively gain access to it (attack). Also note that under Russian regulations an oil platform is considered a critical infrastructural facility, like a nuclear power plant, a railroad or a pipeline. Therefore the operators of the platform and the Russian Forces had the right to protect it.
Now although the ship itself stayed a couple miles away, this is completely irrelevant as it and those aboard it were parties to the crime. The same as Somalian pirates launching attack boats from a "mothership", not only the attack boats are fair game, but so is the mothership.
So everything here is perfectly legal.
Now what I meant about loopholes in the Russian law: Since there was an amnesty, there was no conviction on any charge. Therefore everyone and everything arrested (minus illegal goods - be it drugs or weapons or whatever) is returned to whomever claims ownership at the time of arrest or if there are disputes, as the court decides. The condition of the ship was no doubt documented at the time of arrest (even if they tow your car here, the officer that signs off on it takes a shitload of photos and notes any significant dents or damage).
So when they got their shit back, at that time or in a reasonable timeframe afterwards they had to document any damage to their property and launch a civil suit in the local court at the district (region) where the arrest took place (Murmansk) and against the party that made the arrest, probably the Murmansk Prosecutor's Office, Murmansk Transport Police or the FSB for Murmansk Oblast. I have no clue who made that actual arrest and was responsible for the ship, but that would be clear from the papers documenting the arrest.
To sum it up, if they actually cared about getting reimbursed for damages, they could have hired a half-assed lawyer that barely passed Law School in Russia and followed the above procedure and to a high degree would have gotten some of their money at least. (Btw my little lifehack from above is now useless, I think the limitations for such a claim is 3 years). So they didn't do this and this is why they will see about 0 Dollars/Euros/Roubles
So do you accept all the conclusions of the international court of none, you can't have it both ways.
Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Tugger wrote:Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.
Tugg
Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.
I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.
Tugg
Scorpius wrote:These tanks were captured by the militia from storage facilities. Ukraine was the second largest military grouping in the Soviet Union, where tanks were about 10 thousand, you wonder where did it all go?
Tugger wrote:Scorpius wrote:Tugger wrote:I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.
Tugg
These tanks were captured by the militia from storage facilities. Ukraine was the second largest military grouping in the Soviet Union, where tanks were about 10 thousand, you wonder where did it all go?
"From Russia with truth" You are very persistent.
Ukraine had some 25 T-64's and no T-72's or T-80's. So apparently you are again stating that Russia has no effectie control over its arsenal. Any military that "LOSES" (sorry, hold on... ...OK. I think I can continue...) 400+ current main battle tanks tanks is a failing military. So you are stating that Russia's military is failing? ....Sure...
https://russia.tv/video/show/brand_id/6 ... e/picture/
So how do separatists get hold of so many front line MBT's when Russian records show they only have 25 older models at the time (and Russia never sold Ukraine the T-80).
http://www.rusin.ru/downloads/vsulogs_20_p2.jpg
But perhaps you are acknowledging Russia's failing military ability. (I doubt that BTW).
Tugg
ual747den wrote:This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe.
ual747den wrote:I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!
I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.
It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.
Dutchy wrote:So no problem when the opposition (or regular Russian soldiers) took out an airliner with 298 completely innocent people in it.
Ad. 1. two completely different situations, fighting ISIS and fighting and destabilizing a country which Russians took part of
Ad. 2. Whataboutism again, must be your favorite trick to use
ual747den wrote:I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!
I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.
It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.
Scorpius wrote:Again - you believe if the people here don't know something or supposedly they have brainwashed. I assure you that it is not.
tu204 wrote:ual747den wrote:I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!
I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.
It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.
The point exactly that I wanted to make.
You guys are so brainwashed by your propaganda that you do not accept any version of the truth other than your own. I am living here, a citizen of Canada and the Russian Federation and I am saying that in the upcomming elections I will give my vote, without any sort of pressure to Vladimir Putin. Just because with every year life is getting better here. Comparing this to my friends back in Canada there is something to compare to.
Why do you think that I have no access to information that would make me think otherwise?
ual747den wrote:tu204 wrote:ual747den wrote:I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!
I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.
It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.
The point exactly that I wanted to make.
You guys are so brainwashed by your propaganda that you do not accept any version of the truth other than your own. I am living here, a citizen of Canada and the Russian Federation and I am saying that in the upcomming elections I will give my vote, without any sort of pressure to Vladimir Putin. Just because with every year life is getting better here. Comparing this to my friends back in Canada there is something to compare to.
Why do you think that I have no access to information that would make me think otherwise?
Part of your problem is that you think we care that you will vote for Putin, we don't! People in the West and USA specifically don't really care if Putin remains in power or not. It is not something that we think about as part of our daily life. In fact we don't think about Russia at all in our daily life, the only reason that Russia gets any time in our media at all is because of the Trump investigation and that has very little to do with Russia and everything to do with wanting to find a reason to remove Trump from office.
Russia isn't really a threat to America, no one is worried that we will end up at war other than a few crazy people whom you seem to be a part of. Russia's power on the world stage is VERY limited. If Russia became a problem we could easily use economic sanctions to control them without any bombs going off. Putin is not stupid, he has no desire to cause problems with the West, he just needs to keep up the appearance that the West is against Russia to remain in power. This is how all dictatorships work, you have to have an active enemy that you are protecting the people against in order to retain al the power and take away people freedom. Putin does this very well because people like you let him.
Scorpius wrote:
You see, your basic misconception is that you think people in the USSR lived worse than in the West. Although it was not so.
Scorpius wrote:The sticks have two ends, and no country in the world dares to threaten Russia.
L410Turbolet wrote:Scorpius wrote:
You see, your basic misconception is that you think people in the USSR lived worse than in the West. Although it was not so.
Seriously, who do you think you will convince with such fairy tales? Those young enough not to remember the "glorious" USSR?
Dutchy wrote:Scorpius wrote:The sticks have two ends, and no country in the world dares to threaten Russia.
Nobody in the west wants to threaten Russia, it is all in your mind, Russia aint that important.
Dutchy wrote:Megalomania............
Contradixie in terminis: either I am lying, which means I know the truth and I consciously telling you something else or I am brainwashed with propaganda and I believe this propaganda and thus I am not lying. You can't have it both, so what is it my Russian friend?
The economy of the CCCP (GDP per capita):
$5,800 (1982 est.) (Nominal; 32nd)
$9,211 (1991 est.) (GNP; 28th)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_o ... viet_Union
By comparisment:
USA: 14.438,98 USD (1982); 24.180 USD (1991)
The Netherlands: 10.931,34 USD (1982); 21.454,86 USD (1991)
Yeah, the people in the USSR were as rich as the people in the west................... Damn I must be brainwashed to think otherwise.
Dutchy wrote:*sight* Voodoo statistics...................
I am convinced you are a troll. This kind of information on the tip of your fingers is just daft. My mistake to think you were generally interesting, sorry for that.