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User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:58 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
that is not democracy?.


You are truly the first one I encountered who actually called the USSR a democracy. The word "democracy" in a country name usually is quite a hint that it is not a democracy. :white:

If I take one thing with me, after this exchange with you, that you have changed my view of Russians for the worse. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person, so I fail to believe that most Russians actually share your negative views.


You behave like a spoiled child who is given sweets.Once you find that my opinion on political issues different from your (what I immediately warned, more than once), you were throwing tantrums, and tell how you don't love me.
Do you seriously think that I have some care how you treat me?
In Russia there is a saying: "I'm not a gold Ducat to please everyone".
Regardless of your opinions, whether you love or hate the Russian, the Russian was, is and will be their own national interests.
Politics is the art of compromise. You obviously can't find a compromise between your propaganda clouded the Outlook and the information that does not fit your usual views.
Until then, until you realize these obvious facts, we will not work with you dialogue. However, I am a man of stubborn and patient - I'll wait until you finally begin to think with your head, not to shout propaganda slogans.

While I have disagreed with you on a number of points, I have also found some of your information to be interesting, and born out by other sources such as Wikipedia.

I can especially understand your frustration in attempting dialogue with someone who is never wrong.

".....I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person......" is a wonderful example of a closed mind that can flip any situation to his advantage.

In the United States our best example of this ability is called Donald J. Trump, Sr.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:44 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Of course, who else would know better than you. :crazy:

Well, you're not ashamed to say, though versed in what happened in the USSR and what is happening in Russia. Why am I in this case, it can't make sense of life in the West?
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:47 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are truly the first one I encountered who actually called the USSR a democracy. The word "democracy" in a country name usually is quite a hint that it is not a democracy. :white:

If I take one thing with me, after this exchange with you, that you have changed my view of Russians for the worse. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person, so I fail to believe that most Russians actually share your negative views.


You behave like a spoiled child who is given sweets.Once you find that my opinion on political issues different from your (what I immediately warned, more than once), you were throwing tantrums, and tell how you don't love me.
Do you seriously think that I have some care how you treat me?
In Russia there is a saying: "I'm not a gold Ducat to please everyone".
Regardless of your opinions, whether you love or hate the Russian, the Russian was, is and will be their own national interests.
Politics is the art of compromise. You obviously can't find a compromise between your propaganda clouded the Outlook and the information that does not fit your usual views.
Until then, until you realize these obvious facts, we will not work with you dialogue. However, I am a man of stubborn and patient - I'll wait until you finally begin to think with your head, not to shout propaganda slogans.

While I have disagreed with you on a number of points, I have also found some of your information to be interesting, and born out by other sources such as Wikipedia.

I can especially understand your frustration in attempting dialogue with someone who is never wrong.

".....I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person......" is a wonderful example of a closed mind that can flip any situation to his advantage.

In the United States our best example of this ability is called Donald J. Trump, Sr.



Well You have the dialogue may well, I respect your positions, the willingness to accept a point of view different from the point of view of the inhabitants of the countries of the West.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:56 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are truly the first one I encountered who actually called the USSR a democracy. The word "democracy" in a country name usually is quite a hint that it is not a democracy. :white:

If I take one thing with me, after this exchange with you, that you have changed my view of Russians for the worse. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person, so I fail to believe that most Russians actually share your negative views.


You behave like a spoiled child who is given sweets.Once you find that my opinion on political issues different from your (what I immediately warned, more than once), you were throwing tantrums, and tell how you don't love me.
Do you seriously think that I have some care how you treat me?
In Russia there is a saying: "I'm not a gold Ducat to please everyone".
Regardless of your opinions, whether you love or hate the Russian, the Russian was, is and will be their own national interests.
Politics is the art of compromise. You obviously can't find a compromise between your propaganda clouded the Outlook and the information that does not fit your usual views.
Until then, until you realize these obvious facts, we will not work with you dialogue. However, I am a man of stubborn and patient - I'll wait until you finally begin to think with your head, not to shout propaganda slogans.


Oh, easy!
1. I strongly condemn the foreign policy of Russia due to the fact that our Ministry of foreign Affairs made a significant weakening Russia's ties with neighbouring countries - was an important part of their work, which they have failed.
2. I am totally against the fact that in Russia the power is spliced with a capital, I believe that ALL the oligarchs should be in prison, because in Russia there is no person included in the list of Forbes, which got his fortune the honest way. The fact that Western countries gladly accept the stolen money, which these people derive from Russia - an occasion to separate my dissatisfaction with the Western countries.2. I am totally against the fact that in Russia the power is spliced with a capital, I believe that ALL the oligarchs should be in prison, because in Russia there is no person included in the list of Forbes, which got his fortune the honest way. The fact that Western countries gladly accept the stolen money, which these people derive from Russia - an occasion to separate my dissatisfaction with the Western countries.
3. I strongly disagree with the current policy in the field of space exploration - I believe that is the content of the oligarchic elite, the funds should be directed primarily at the development of the space program of Russia. In some ways it is industry in Russia is a social.

I answered your questions, now it's your turn. And what you claim to policies of Western countries? Please give three examples.

Let me ask you, do you have any critizm on the current Russian policies? Could you give me 3 examples?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:07 am

Scorpius wrote:
Oh, easy!
1. I strongly condemn the foreign policy of Russia due to the fact that our Ministry of foreign Affairs made a significant weakening Russia's ties with neighbouring countries - was an important part of their work, which they have failed.
2. I am totally against the fact that in Russia the power is spliced with a capital, I believe that ALL the oligarchs should be in prison, because in Russia there is no person included in the list of Forbes, which got his fortune the honest way. The fact that Western countries gladly accept the stolen money, which these people derive from Russia - an occasion to separate my dissatisfaction with the Western countries.2. I am totally against the fact that in Russia the power is spliced with a capital, I believe that ALL the oligarchs should be in prison, because in Russia there is no person included in the list of Forbes, which got his fortune the honest way. The fact that Western countries gladly accept the stolen money, which these people derive from Russia - an occasion to separate my dissatisfaction with the Western countries.
3. I strongly disagree with the current policy in the field of space exploration - I believe that is the content of the oligarchic elite, the funds should be directed primarily at the development of the space program of Russia. In some ways it is industry in Russia is a social.

I answered your questions, now it's your turn. And what you claim to policies of Western countries? Please give three examples.

Let me ask you, do you have any critizm on the current Russian policies? Could you give me 3 examples?


Now you gained a little respect for your point of view from me. So you believe the entire top echelon of the (political) elites should be in prison, including Mr. Putin and his direct entourage.
1. something is lost in translation, so I don't understand what you mean.
2. Don't understand what western countries have got to do with that. Do you mean that western countries should police the rest of the world including Russia when Russia fails to police it themselves (aka corruption)?
3. something is lost in translation, so I don't understand what you mean.

May I turn your question around? I think I gave enough criticism about Russian policies, so it should be easy to distillate 3 examples for you. So instead I will give you 3 examples which I feel Russians could be proud of:
- space: still a leading nation with a reliable rocket
- the Russian national character of enduring hardship
- tight nite family ties and thus the foundation of the social fabric of a country
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

Of course not. As you have highlighted yourself, it's SOCIALIST democracy. Same with real steak vs. vegetarian steak. On paper veggie steak looks almost like the real thing. Only on paper.
Independent courts?
Checks and balances between branches of government?
Free competition of parties?
Free elections?
Civilian control of the military?
so on and so forth

All these things do not exist in Western countries.


Care to back that up? The Netherlands is a western country, so please feel free to take that as an example.


Your view, Scorpius, is that these don't exist in western countries, could you elaborate on that? You wanted to have a dialogue, so then you should be prepared to challenge your own views about the western world.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:12 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are truly the first one I encountered who actually called the USSR a democracy. The word "democracy" in a country name usually is quite a hint that it is not a democracy. :white:

If I take one thing with me, after this exchange with you, that you have changed my view of Russians for the worse. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person, so I fail to believe that most Russians actually share your negative views.


You behave like a spoiled child who is given sweets.Once you find that my opinion on political issues different from your (what I immediately warned, more than once), you were throwing tantrums, and tell how you don't love me.
Do you seriously think that I have some care how you treat me?
In Russia there is a saying: "I'm not a gold Ducat to please everyone".
Regardless of your opinions, whether you love or hate the Russian, the Russian was, is and will be their own national interests.
Politics is the art of compromise. You obviously can't find a compromise between your propaganda clouded the Outlook and the information that does not fit your usual views.
Until then, until you realize these obvious facts, we will not work with you dialogue. However, I am a man of stubborn and patient - I'll wait until you finally begin to think with your head, not to shout propaganda slogans.

While I have disagreed with you on a number of points, I have also found some of your information to be interesting, and born out by other sources such as Wikipedia.

I can especially understand your frustration in attempting dialogue with someone who is never wrong.

".....I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person......" is a wonderful example of a closed mind that can flip any situation to his advantage.

In the United States our best example of this ability is called Donald J. Trump, Sr.


*sight* Passive aggressive reactions don't work. Give it up, Bob.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Oh, easy!
1. I strongly condemn the foreign policy of Russia due to the fact that our Ministry of foreign Affairs made a significant weakening Russia's ties with neighbouring countries - was an important part of their work, which they have failed.
2. I am totally against the fact that in Russia the power is spliced with a capital, I believe that ALL the oligarchs should be in prison, because in Russia there is no person included in the list of Forbes, which got his fortune the honest way. The fact that Western countries gladly accept the stolen money, which these people derive from Russia - an occasion to separate my dissatisfaction with the Western countries.2. I am totally against the fact that in Russia the power is spliced with a capital, I believe that ALL the oligarchs should be in prison, because in Russia there is no person included in the list of Forbes, which got his fortune the honest way. The fact that Western countries gladly accept the stolen money, which these people derive from Russia - an occasion to separate my dissatisfaction with the Western countries.
3. I strongly disagree with the current policy in the field of space exploration - I believe that is the content of the oligarchic elite, the funds should be directed primarily at the development of the space program of Russia. In some ways it is industry in Russia is a social.

I answered your questions, now it's your turn. And what you claim to policies of Western countries? Please give three examples.

Let me ask you, do you have any critizm on the current Russian policies? Could you give me 3 examples?


Now you gained a little respect for your point of view from me. So you believe the entire top echelon of the (political) elites should be in prison, including Mr. Putin and his direct entourage.
1. something is lost in translation, so I don't understand what you mean.
2. Don't understand what western countries have got to do with that. Do you mean that western countries should police the rest of the world including Russia when Russia fails to police it themselves (aka corruption)?
3. something is lost in translation, so I don't understand what you mean.

May I turn your question around? I think I gave enough criticism about Russian policies, so it should be easy to distillate 3 examples for you. So instead I will give you 3 examples which I feel Russians could be proud of:
- space: still a leading nation with a reliable rocket
- the Russian national character of enduring hardship
- tight nite family ties and thus the foundation of the social fabric of a country



Oh, no, I was asking about what three examples of your dissatisfaction with the politics in Western countries, you can tell.


So you believe the entire top echelon of the (political) elites should be in prison, including Mr. Putin and his direct entourage

I'm not talking about political elites of Russia and the elites in General. Our big problem is that the financial elite to match with the power, and power used for personal gain. In this situation, Putin is the best choice of bad options. Other options (not Putin) is even worse.
By the way, do you know why Russia is so popular Stalin? He did not steal. After his death his estate was left only the clothes that were on it and the ceremonial uniform. He had no palaces, no cars, were no accounts in Swiss banks. Compare that with the current policies, they buy the biggest yachts in the world and you will understand why Stalin is popular figure among ordinary citizens.

Don't understand what western countries have got to do with that. Do you mean that western countries should police the rest of the world including Russia when Russia fails to police it themselves (aka corruption)?

Buying stolen goods is also a crime. As long as Western countries take the capital stolen in Russia - they are guilty of corruption, however, than those officials who steal money.


3. something is lost in translation, so I don't understand what you mean.

3. I prefer that instead of the content of elite money in Russia went to space exploration.

And again returning to the subject of Stalin.
by the way, here a caricature of the modern political subject:
Image
the Central obelisk, surrounded by a fence, says, "Victims of Stalinism"
on the other signs that are visible here and there, it is written: "victims of privatization" "victims of monetization" "victims of crime", "victims of terrorism", "victims of the crisis of 1998", "victims of the crisis of 2008".
 
tu204
Posts: 1538
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 am

JJJ wrote:
tu204 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

If the analysis of the situation is just that roads are a little better and that they can go clean toilets in the EU I really feel sorry for your Lithuanian relatives.

Most Lithuanians paint a different picture, though.


Care to be objective and give some examples? My Lithuanian cousin (not a drop of Russian in him) graduated in Copenhagen, where if you ain't Danish, you ain't got a chance. Dude works in Vilnius, making 1200 Euros, where that is considered "the shit" (big money), and is asking me for help on how to get Russian Citizenship so he can move here. Do to want to give me a list of the benefits Lithuania recieved from switching opressors?


Of course personal situations, degrees, etc matter a lot but seriously your cousin couldn't get anything in Copenhagen? A city where almost one-quarter of the population is either foreign or son of foreign immigrants and that has an unemployment rate under 5%? Of course it's an expensive place (not as much as Moscow, though), though the average salary is over 3.000 euro per month.

It might well be that he has some really, really specific degree. Or that he's not fluent enough in Danish, but plenty of foreigners make their lives in Denmark perfectly fine.

So he's in Lithuania now, making 1.200 euro/month which indeed is OK-ish since their average salary is 660/month.... but moving to Russia with their average salary under 500 euro? Even assuming he's fluent in the language (though you said not a drop of Russian in him) doesn't really work out.... and that's without accounting how terribly expensive living in the Russian big cities is.

Yes, I know some sectors in Russia pay big (I go to Russia at least twice a year) but then again what's so specific about his training that he can't make it in CPH but he can give a shot in Moscow or LED.


He was studying there for a degree in management. While studying he was working at a cafe which covered his expenses. He speaks Lithuanian (obviously), English (I would say level 5, if I was to grade him by the ICAO scale :lol: ). He spoke some Danish, but not fluent. His Russian is not too bad. Some grammatical errors and a strong accent. He has been working in a logistics company and many of their contracts are with Russian companies.

From the picture he painted me about Denmark, there is a clear bias if you are from lets say Germany vs. being Lithuanian/Polish. With the same qualifications and the same knowledge of Danish as a westerner you would clearly have more oppurtunities.

While you make a point with the Russian average income, you don't take into account the cost of living. If we are not looking at Moscow with the crazy rental prices, everyday expenses are significantly less in Russia. From food, to general utilities.

In my situation, as a pilot with a Russian and Canadian citizenship I can tell you that my buddies back in Canada once a while send me info that their respective companies (Jazz, Porter, etc.) are hiring. While I could use turbo time in an aircraft over 30t MTOW, I would need to have a take-home salary of at least twice what I make here in Russia. Plus reasonable non-rev privilages for my family and I to visit home at least twice a year. This isn't even taking into account the threefold drop in vacation time. 2 weeks in Canada vs. 40 days in Russia (mandatory by law for pilots).
Off topic, but the United States looks interesting, better conditions vs. Canada, plus signing bonuses and yearly bonuses for not leaving, free type rating and so on. That I could do for a few years. However despite a pilot shortage at the regionals, even as a Canadian it is pretty hard to get a work visa as a pilot in the US.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:56 am

Dutchy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
All these things do not exist in Western countries.


Care to back that up? The Netherlands is a western country, so please feel free to take that as an example.


Your view, Scorpius, is that these don't exist in western countries, could you elaborate on that? You wanted to have a dialogue, so then you should be prepared to challenge your own views about the western world.

If you can, I'll answer this question later. I saw him, and not ignored. You just have to spend some amount of time for a response, but I was in the middle of the day at my work .
 
JJJ
Posts: 2569
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:20 am

tu204 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Care to be objective and give some examples? My Lithuanian cousin (not a drop of Russian in him) graduated in Copenhagen, where if you ain't Danish, you ain't got a chance. Dude works in Vilnius, making 1200 Euros, where that is considered "the shit" (big money), and is asking me for help on how to get Russian Citizenship so he can move here. Do to want to give me a list of the benefits Lithuania recieved from switching opressors?


Of course personal situations, degrees, etc matter a lot but seriously your cousin couldn't get anything in Copenhagen? A city where almost one-quarter of the population is either foreign or son of foreign immigrants and that has an unemployment rate under 5%? Of course it's an expensive place (not as much as Moscow, though), though the average salary is over 3.000 euro per month.

It might well be that he has some really, really specific degree. Or that he's not fluent enough in Danish, but plenty of foreigners make their lives in Denmark perfectly fine.

So he's in Lithuania now, making 1.200 euro/month which indeed is OK-ish since their average salary is 660/month.... but moving to Russia with their average salary under 500 euro? Even assuming he's fluent in the language (though you said not a drop of Russian in him) doesn't really work out.... and that's without accounting how terribly expensive living in the Russian big cities is.

Yes, I know some sectors in Russia pay big (I go to Russia at least twice a year) but then again what's so specific about his training that he can't make it in CPH but he can give a shot in Moscow or LED.


He was studying there for a degree in management. While studying he was working at a cafe which covered his expenses. He speaks Lithuanian (obviously), English (I would say level 5, if I was to grade him by the ICAO scale :lol: ). He spoke some Danish, but not fluent. His Russian is not too bad. Some grammatical errors and a strong accent. He has been working in a logistics company and many of their contracts are with Russian companies.

From the picture he painted me about Denmark, there is a clear bias if you are from lets say Germany vs. being Lithuanian/Polish. With the same qualifications and the same knowledge of Danish as a westerner you would clearly have more oppurtunities.

While you make a point with the Russian average income, you don't take into account the cost of living. If we are not looking at Moscow with the crazy rental prices, everyday expenses are significantly less in Russia. From food, to general utilities.


We're not talking vs Canada or the USA, we're talking Denmark which has 5-6 weeks avg per year.

And again, I find it hard to digest that there's a well-paying job in the Russian boondocks for a barely Russian-speaking foreigner (that's not a mining or oil-specific job).

99% of the time he will be better off in Denmark, Germany or France than in Russia.

I can see why you, as a pilot in a well-paying job in Russia are comfortable but I've been asked several times by employees of my distributors in Russia for help about moving to Spain because conditions in Russia aren't really ok outside of a few choice sectors.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:27 am

Scorpius wrote:
Oh, no, I was asking about what three examples of your dissatisfaction with the politics in Western countries, you can tell.


1. too much influence of big companies on society
2. tax evasion / too much tax on labor, too little on wealth
3. way too little is done to combat climate change and too little speed in the energy transition


So you believe the entire top echelon of the (political) elites should be in prison, including Mr. Putin and his direct entourage

I'm not talking about political elites of Russia and the elites in General. Our big problem is that the financial elite to match with the power, and power used for personal gain. In this situation, Putin is the best choice of bad options. Other options (not Putin) is even worse.
By the way, do you know why Russia is so popular Stalin? He did not steal. After his death his estate was left only the clothes that were on it and the ceremonial uniform. He had no palaces, no cars, were no accounts in Swiss banks. Compare that with the current policies, they buy the biggest yachts in the world and you will understand why Stalin is popular figure among ordinary citizens.[/quote]

Don't understand, on one hand, you rightfully say the oligarchs should be dealt with, but on the other hand, the oligarch in chief: Putin, is the best options. Putin will never deal with the oligarch like you want, because he is one and relies on them for power.

Buying stolen goods is also a crime. As long as Western countries take the capital stolen in Russia - they are guilty of corruption, however, then those officials who steal money.


Corruption is something else. Western countries don't take any stolen money, companies might, but are you saying western companies can't deal with Russians in general, or case by case, in which case you say western countries/companies should do research to their clients and decides which one to follow and which one not. Where do you draw the line? Especially for a private company. Isn't that the responsibility of the Russian state? But we have seen that the criminal justice system is misused by the Kremlin to target political opponents (who spoke against Putin), not to bring justice for the Russian people.

3. I prefer that instead of the content of elite money in Russia went to space exploration.

Ok.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 4663
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:59 pm

The most amusing part is that Western Media invariably present as "dissident" those that got rich via ill gains in the RF.
The "dissident" Khodorkovsky, in all essence a thief, broke the camels back
when he tried to sell off Russian oil/gas producing assets into the US influence sphere.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:27 pm

WIederling wrote:
The most amusing part is that Western Media invariably present as "dissident" those that got rich via ill gains in the RF.
The "dissident" Khodorkovsky, in all essence a thief, broke the camels back
when he tried to sell off Russian oil/gas producing assets into the US influence sphere.


Can't understand what you are saying.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1538
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:45 pm

JJJ wrote:
tu204 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Of course personal situations, degrees, etc matter a lot but seriously your cousin couldn't get anything in Copenhagen? A city where almost one-quarter of the population is either foreign or son of foreign immigrants and that has an unemployment rate under 5%? Of course it's an expensive place (not as much as Moscow, though), though the average salary is over 3.000 euro per month.

It might well be that he has some really, really specific degree. Or that he's not fluent enough in Danish, but plenty of foreigners make their lives in Denmark perfectly fine.

So he's in Lithuania now, making 1.200 euro/month which indeed is OK-ish since their average salary is 660/month.... but moving to Russia with their average salary under 500 euro? Even assuming he's fluent in the language (though you said not a drop of Russian in him) doesn't really work out.... and that's without accounting how terribly expensive living in the Russian big cities is.

Yes, I know some sectors in Russia pay big (I go to Russia at least twice a year) but then again what's so specific about his training that he can't make it in CPH but he can give a shot in Moscow or LED.


He was studying there for a degree in management. While studying he was working at a cafe which covered his expenses. He speaks Lithuanian (obviously), English (I would say level 5, if I was to grade him by the ICAO scale :lol: ). He spoke some Danish, but not fluent. His Russian is not too bad. Some grammatical errors and a strong accent. He has been working in a logistics company and many of their contracts are with Russian companies.

From the picture he painted me about Denmark, there is a clear bias if you are from lets say Germany vs. being Lithuanian/Polish. With the same qualifications and the same knowledge of Danish as a westerner you would clearly have more oppurtunities.

While you make a point with the Russian average income, you don't take into account the cost of living. If we are not looking at Moscow with the crazy rental prices, everyday expenses are significantly less in Russia. From food, to general utilities.


We're not talking vs Canada or the USA, we're talking Denmark which has 5-6 weeks avg per year.

And again, I find it hard to digest that there's a well-paying job in the Russian boondocks for a barely Russian-speaking foreigner (that's not a mining or oil-specific job).

99% of the time he will be better off in Denmark, Germany or France than in Russia.

I can see why you, as a pilot in a well-paying job in Russia are comfortable but I've been asked several times by employees of my distributors in Russia for help about moving to Spain because conditions in Russia aren't really ok outside of a few choice sectors.


In Russia you can find a lot of well paying jobs in almost any industry if you have some special skills or experience where you stand out from the rest. Same as in most other countries. His skills are 6 years of experience working for a large, multi-national logistical company. He seemed pretty dissapointed at the oppertunities in Denmark, I haven't talked in detail about other EU countries, will ask next time I meet him.

Unfortunately for me I am having some pretty big problems right now with bullshit beaurocracy here, so I am not as well paid as others. In particular I have to go through this annual bullshit process of validating my Canadian ATPL in Russia. I cannot convert it to a Russian license as Russia does not recognize my post-secondary aviation education in Canada. So now I am doing a 4 year distance course at a Russian Aviation University, however as of last year the major carriers here have this unwritten rule to only hire pilots that did a full time University or College aviation program. So I am pretty f*cked. I really like living here, but it is highly likely that I will end up working somewhere in China/Southeast Asia/Gulf states in the next couple years. However I am working towards options where I will be able to work somewhere there while living here and commuting to work. That would be nearly a dream come true with lets say a Hong Kong salary but Russian living expenses. Lots of people do it. Don't have enough PIC time on Turbo, so that is why I mentioned looking at the option to go to Canada for a few years, tough it out and then make bank elsewhere.

So my rant from above can be one of my points on what I critisize this government on. Many different ministries making stupid knee-jerk reactions without getting to the root of the problem. All this bullshit Rosaviatsiya is pulling now are remnants of the Tatarstan crash. Kinda like the 1500hour rule that the FAA implemented after the Colgan crash despite both the PIC and FO having more than 1500hours at the time of crash.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Kiwirob
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Mir wrote:

The referendum was held under Russian military occupation with no option to remain part of Ukraine. The referendum was not legal per Ukraine's constitution because the whole country needed to be able to vote. That's annexation. Russia should never have been there.


What do you mean “no option”? They had 2 questions - “Do you want Crimea to cecede from Ukraine?” and “Do you want Crimea to join Russian Federation?”. Both of these questions received some, albeit small, share of “No” answers. So they were given their choice. Speaking of “legality” - Kosovo didn’t have any voting at all, just in parliament. On either side of border with Serbia,and it’s OK apparently.


Nope, those weren't the options:
- option 1: remain an independent country (they just declared independent in parliament)
- option 2: become part of Russia

So no option to remain part of Ukriane.

That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.


You’d have to be a complete moron to think anyone living in Crimea would have wanted to remain part of Ukraine, so why waste the ink putting that option on the ballot? It’s like asking a Kosovan if they would rather be Serbian, just not going to happen.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:25 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

What do you mean “no option”? They had 2 questions - “Do you want Crimea to cecede from Ukraine?” and “Do you want Crimea to join Russian Federation?”. Both of these questions received some, albeit small, share of “No” answers. So they were given their choice. Speaking of “legality” - Kosovo didn’t have any voting at all, just in parliament. On either side of border with Serbia,and it’s OK apparently.


Nope, those weren't the options:
- option 1: remain an independent country (they just declared independent in parliament)
- option 2: become part of Russia

So no option to remain part of Ukriane.

That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.


You’d have to be a complete moron to think anyone living in Crimea would have wanted to remain part of Ukraine, so why waste the ink putting that option on the ballot? It’s like asking a Kosovan if they would rather be Serbian, just not going to happen.


Anyone? And Rob, why not have a referendum which follows all democratic guidelines so it is undisputed if it is so clear?

Now you have a Pinokio referendum which no one besides Russia and its satellite states accept.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
The most amusing part is that Western Media invariably present as "dissident" those that got rich via ill gains in the RF.
The "dissident" Khodorkovsky, in all essence a thief, broke the camels back
when he tried to sell off Russian oil/gas producing assets into the US influence sphere.


Can't understand what you are saying.

He said that Khodorkovsky is a thief. He was imprisoned for that Yukos evaded taxes. At the same time in the West Khodorkovsky pose as victims of political repressions of Putin. But he's just a thief. And so brazen that he once said live on - he stole so much money that now can buy any court in Russia.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:32 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
The most amusing part is that Western Media invariably present as "dissident" those that got rich via ill gains in the RF.
The "dissident" Khodorkovsky, in all essence a thief, broke the camels back
when he tried to sell off Russian oil/gas producing assets into the US influence sphere.


Can't understand what you are saying.

He said that Khodorkovsky is a thief. He was imprisoned for that Yukos evaded taxes. At the same time in the West Khodorkovsky pose as victims of political repressions of Putin. But he's just a thief. And so brazen that he once said live on - he stole so much money that now can buy any court in Russia.


I believe you when you say that any Russian oligarch is a thief. Then there are two kinds of oligarchs: 1. sided with Putin --> no problem in Russia; 2. oppose Putin --> problems in Russia

So Khodorkovsky falls in the second category I guess.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And Rob, why not have a referendum which follows all democratic guidelines so it is undisputed if it is so clear?


Who is dumb enough to play to moving goalpost rules?
They could have jumped through hoops for the referendum and the same voices would never stop the lambasting.

There is no value in pandering to imbeciles with an agenda.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Nope, those weren't the options:
- option 1: remain an independent country (they just declared independent in parliament)
- option 2: become part of Russia

So no option to remain part of Ukriane.

That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.


You’d have to be a complete moron to think anyone living in Crimea would have wanted to remain part of Ukraine, so why waste the ink putting that option on the ballot? It’s like asking a Kosovan if they would rather be Serbian, just not going to happen.


Anyone? And Rob, why not have a referendum which follows all democratic guidelines so it is undisputed if it is so clear?

Now you have a Pinokio referendum which no one besides Russia and its satellite states accept.


There was no referendum to separate Kosovo from Serbia so your point is? What you really don’t appear to get it the vast majority of people living there didn’t want to be Ukrainian. As far as I’m concerned that’s all there is too it.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Can't understand what you are saying.

He said that Khodorkovsky is a thief. He was imprisoned for that Yukos evaded taxes. At the same time in the West Khodorkovsky pose as victims of political repressions of Putin. But he's just a thief. And so brazen that he once said live on - he stole so much money that now can buy any court in Russia.


I believe you when you say that any Russian oligarch is a thief. Then there are two kinds of oligarchs: 1. sided with Putin --> no problem in Russia; 2. oppose Putin --> problems in Russia

So Khodorkovsky falls in the second category I guess.

Yes and no. The oligarchs, who stand on the side of Putin, play by certain rules. Much easier to deal with them than with the oligarchs, who controlled only the West.
To Russia was not the oligarchs, we need a new socialist Revolution and the restoration of the USSR, but get this, I'm sure you're wouldn't.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:59 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And Rob, why not have a referendum which follows all democratic guidelines so it is undisputed if it is so clear?


Who is dumb enough to play to moving goalpost rules?
They could have jumped through hoops for the referendum and the same voices would never stop the lambasting.

There is no value in pandering to imbeciles with an agenda.


Nope, not from me, if it was a legitimate referendum, I would have been fine with the outcome, now it is just Russian aggression. But what you are saying is that they could do whatever they want, because the rest of the world would be against it anyway. Bit simplistic right.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:02 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Yes and no. The oligarchs, who stand on the side of Putin, play by certain rules. Much easier to deal with them than with the oligarchs, who controlled only the West.
To Russia was not the oligarchs, we need a new socialist Revolution and the restoration of the USSR, but get this, I'm sure you're wouldn't.


Which rules do the oligarch which side with Putin play by?

Are you saying that the oligarchs whom are against Putin are by definition controlled by the west?

I understand that you want the USSR back, but my question would be why? I still see it as a very big prison with very limited self-control.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

You’d have to be a complete moron to think anyone living in Crimea would have wanted to remain part of Ukraine, so why waste the ink putting that option on the ballot? It’s like asking a Kosovan if they would rather be Serbian, just not going to happen.


Anyone? And Rob, why not have a referendum which follows all democratic guidelines so it is undisputed if it is so clear?

Now you have a Pinokio referendum which no one besides Russia and its satellite states accept.


There was no referendum to separate Kosovo from Serbia so your point is? What you really don’t appear to get it the vast majority of people living there didn’t want to be Ukrainian. As far as I’m concerned that’s all there is too it.


Huh? Whom is talking about Kosovo? There was a Pinokio referendum in Crimea though and we were talking about that. Fine that you don't care anymore, but it is irrelevant, the rest of the world doesn't recognize it, and Russia (mainly the oligarchs) must feel the boycott by now.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:08 am

Kiwirob wrote:

You’d have to be a complete moron to think anyone living in Crimea would have wanted to remain part of Ukraine, so why waste the ink putting that option on the ballot? It’s like asking a Kosovan if they would rather be Serbian, just not going to happen.


Wouldn’t compare Crimea and Kosovo. Look at the results and turnout (>80%) in Crimean referendum. In Kosovo there was no polls ever. And, last but not least, Kosovan “statehood” isn’t unlike that of post-Maidan Ukraine. There is simply no economy that can support the statehood, and for most people such “independence” just doesn’t work. In Ukraine, the idea of statehood and independence isn’t in as much demand as it seems to be - given that most people from there would want to leave the country.

So I wouldn’t say “just not going to happen” - very well might. Keep in mind that in 1940 Baltic States asked Stalin to take them into USSR themselves, for exact same reasons - the independence simply wasn’t working for them, and they were turning into a poor, God forgotten edge of Europe. Not unlike now really.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:12 am

Dutchy wrote:

Huh? Whom is talking about Kosovo? There was a Pinokio referendum in Crimea though and we were talking about that. Fine that you don't care anymore, but it is irrelevant, the rest of the world doesn't recognize it, and Russia (mainly the oligarchs) must feel the boycott by now.


Kosovo didn’t have any referendum, at all, ever. And what’s there now? Bondsteel base, ISIS camps and poor farmers around it. And some sort of “government” in Pristina, which lives on EU’s grants (read: your taxes).
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:32 am

What legitimate referendum had 80% turnout? And you have a very special way to look at history.

In accordance with a secret protocol within the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact of 1939 that divided Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence, the Soviet Army entered eastern Poland in September 1939, and then coerced Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania into mutual assistance treaties which granted them the right to establish military bases in these. In June 1940, the Red Army occupied all of the territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and the Red Army installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" the Soviet Union in August 1940 and were incorporated into it as the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic, the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states

So the truth is: Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (NAZI Germany and USSR pact), lead to the Baltic states occupation --> fake elections --> fake parliament asked to join the USSR.

And on the economy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Tiger

Where do you come up with this stuff and are you sincere or do you have an agenda? And I don't know which is worse.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Huh? Whom is talking about Kosovo? There was a Pinokio referendum in Crimea though and we were talking about that. Fine that you don't care anymore, but it is irrelevant, the rest of the world doesn't recognize it, and Russia (mainly the oligarchs) must feel the boycott by now.


Kosovo didn’t have any referendum, at all, ever. And what’s there now? Bondsteel base, ISIS camps and poor farmers around it. And some sort of “government” in Pristina, which lives on EU’s grants (read: your taxes).


Why talk about Kosovo? I am not talking about it, at all. Nobody is saying that, so why bring it up.

Speaking of taxes, Crimea is living of-of yours. ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Yes and no. The oligarchs, who stand on the side of Putin, play by certain rules. Much easier to deal with them than with the oligarchs, who controlled only the West.
To Russia was not the oligarchs, we need a new socialist Revolution and the restoration of the USSR, but get this, I'm sure you're wouldn't.



Which rules do the oligarch which side with Putin play by?

The rule is simple - do not steal uncontrollably and at least partially to invest in infrastructure.the rule is simple - do not steal uncontrollably and at least partially to invest in infrastructure.
Compare, for example, with Berezovsky, who looted all the assets brought to the UK and went.

Are you saying that the oligarchs whom are against Putin are by definition controlled by the west?

If you are at enmity with the whole system, you will inevitably fall under the influence of another system. In Russia there are two vector forces, one directed to the Kremlin, the second to the West. Outside of these vectors any political power you do not possess. No political power, no access to capital. No access to the capital you will not become an oligarch.If you are at enmity with the whole system, you will inevitably fall under the influence of another system. In Russia there are two vector forces, one directed to the Kremlin, the second to the West. Outside of these vectors any political power you do not possess. No political power, no access to capital. No access to the capital you will not become an oligarch.
For the emergence in Russia of the financial elite, not come to wealth through criminal should take at least 50 years.

I understand that you want the USSR back, but my question would be why? I still see it as a very big prison with very limited self-control.

For ordinary citizens, the Soviet Union was a state with great social sphere, where there was no chance to stay without a roof over your head, work and money. Where it was possible to be born into a poor family of ordinary factory workers and become the head of state - all the way for citizens were open. Significant constraints were the only difficulties with going abroad (again - difficulties can be overcome) and censorship. But now I can say that the censorship in the USSR was a bad example. Looking at the corruption in the current film, theater and literature with music, really want to return to that Soviet censorship, where our children are not exposed to such an attack any mud and the debris, as it is now.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
What legitimate referendum had 80% turnout? And you have a very special way to look at history.

In accordance with a secret protocol within the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact of 1939 that divided Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence, the Soviet Army entered eastern Poland in September 1939, and then coerced Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania into mutual assistance treaties which granted them the right to establish military bases in these. In June 1940, the Red Army occupied all of the territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and the Red Army installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" the Soviet Union in August 1940 and were incorporated into it as the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic, the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states

So the truth is: Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (NAZI Germany and USSR pact), lead to the Baltic states occupation --> fake elections --> fake parliament asked to join the USSR.

And on the economy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Tiger

Where do you come up with this stuff and are you sincere or do you have an agenda? And I don't know which is worse.


What legitimate referendum had 80% turnout? And you have a very special way to look at history.

That's it. Learn the history.
1.The referendum on independence of Armenia, 1991: 95 percent of voters participated in the vote and 99 % voted in favor of withdrawal of Armenia from the Soviet Union
2. The referendum on independence of Georgia, 1991: participated 90,79 % of voters 99,08 % of whom voted for the restoration of state sovereignty of Georgia
3. The referendum on independence of Latvia (carried out in violation of Soviet legislation): attended 1 666 128 residents of the Republic of Latvia (87,6 % of all voters), 73,7 % were in favor of independence, 24.7 per cent voted againstattended 1 666 128 residents of the Republic of Latvia (87,6 % of all voters), 73,7 % were in favor of independence, 24.7 per cent voted against.
4. The referendum on the independence of Lithuania: it was attended by 84 % of voters, 90.4% of them voted for independence
5. In Estonia for the referendum on independence could only vote the "right of the citizens of the Republic of Estonia" (mainly ethnic Estonians) and the person who received the so-called "green card" of the Congress of Estonia (subject to obtaining the card was a statement of support for the independence of the Republic of Estonia).

Of all the republics of the Soviet Union less than 80% was only in Russia and in Estonia. But in Russia and in Estonia the results of the referendum on preserving the Soviet Union, the people chose the option to "Save the USSR". The referendum on the independence of Estonia, which was held at the "more correct" counting, naturally showed "the desire of the people of Estonia to be independent."

So answer us now.What legitimate referendum had 80% turnout?
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:28 am

anrec80 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

You’d have to be a complete moron to think anyone living in Crimea would have wanted to remain part of Ukraine, so why waste the ink putting that option on the ballot? It’s like asking a Kosovan if they would rather be Serbian, just not going to happen.


Wouldn’t compare Crimea and Kosovo. Look at the results and turnout (>80%) in Crimean referendum. In Kosovo there was no polls ever. And, last but not least, Kosovan “statehood” isn’t unlike that of post-Maidan Ukraine. There is simply no economy that can support the statehood, and for most people such “independence” just doesn’t work. In Ukraine, the idea of statehood and independence isn’t in as much demand as it seems to be - given that most people from there would want to leave the country.

So I wouldn’t say “just not going to happen” - very well might. Keep in mind that in 1940 Baltic States asked Stalin to take them into USSR themselves, for exact same reasons - the independence simply wasn’t working for them, and they were turning into a poor, God forgotten edge of Europe. Not unlike now really.


My relatives in Ukraine, now the curse of independence, Western countries that have supported it and the current Ukrainian government. To oppose this power now in Ukraine people are afraid because it's dangerous. You can be arrested or even kidnapped, without reason. Or you may one day "accidentally" attack the radicals.
Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... YwZN08xok8
1.01.2013, March of Ukrainian neo-Nazis who shout: "Stop drinking, it's time to fight. Muscovites on knives!".
"Muscovites" - this Russian. That is, neo-Nazis urge to kill the RussianThat is, neo-Nazis urge to kill the Russian. Before the events in the Crimea more than a year.
Now in Ukraine in order to be declared a "Muscovite", you just have to speak Russian and not support the local authority. And to be against Nazism. And for that, you can imprison, maim or kill. Do you support neo-Nazis, who oppressed the Ukrainian people. And this information not from the media or Wikipedia is the information from my relatives living in Ukraine.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:06 am

Dutchy wrote:

Nope, not from me, if it was a legitimate referendum, I would have been fine with the outcome, now it is just Russian aggression. But what you are saying is that they could do whatever they want, because the rest of the world would be against it anyway. Bit simplistic right.


Why do Crimeans have to listen to your opinion in order to determine where and how do they want to live? They made their choice for themselves and their future, not for you. You can call it anyhow you like - “illegitimate”, “annexation”, but it’s not what matters. What matters is - overwhelming majority wanted to join Russia, and were taken there. Their wish and opinion ought to be respected.
 
JJJ
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:09 am

tu204 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
tu204 wrote:

He was studying there for a degree in management. While studying he was working at a cafe which covered his expenses. He speaks Lithuanian (obviously), English (I would say level 5, if I was to grade him by the ICAO scale :lol: ). He spoke some Danish, but not fluent. His Russian is not too bad. Some grammatical errors and a strong accent. He has been working in a logistics company and many of their contracts are with Russian companies.

From the picture he painted me about Denmark, there is a clear bias if you are from lets say Germany vs. being Lithuanian/Polish. With the same qualifications and the same knowledge of Danish as a westerner you would clearly have more oppurtunities.

While you make a point with the Russian average income, you don't take into account the cost of living. If we are not looking at Moscow with the crazy rental prices, everyday expenses are significantly less in Russia. From food, to general utilities.


We're not talking vs Canada or the USA, we're talking Denmark which has 5-6 weeks avg per year.

And again, I find it hard to digest that there's a well-paying job in the Russian boondocks for a barely Russian-speaking foreigner (that's not a mining or oil-specific job).

99% of the time he will be better off in Denmark, Germany or France than in Russia.

I can see why you, as a pilot in a well-paying job in Russia are comfortable but I've been asked several times by employees of my distributors in Russia for help about moving to Spain because conditions in Russia aren't really ok outside of a few choice sectors.


In Russia you can find a lot of well paying jobs in almost any industry if you have some special skills or experience where you stand out from the rest. Same as in most other countries. His skills are 6 years of experience working for a large, multi-national logistical company. He seemed pretty dissapointed at the oppertunities in Denmark, I haven't talked in detail about other EU countries, will ask next time I meet him.


So same as any other country then. I know for sure the equivalent position as me in my Russian distributor (reporting directly to the board) makes half what I do, living in a much more expensive city than me.

And as much as I love Russia for visiting I would need a significant premium to make me even consider moving there. Every Spaniard I've come along in Russia has either ben expatted by his company (banks and mining, inc. oil basically) or is married to a Russian partner, whereas most of the Russians I bump into in Spain are economic migrants (or tourists, but of course those don't count).
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:19 am

Dutchy wrote:
Speaking of taxes, Crimea is living of-of yours. ;-)


Not quite “living off”. Yes, it demands a lot of investment - to fix Ukrainian mess for the previous 25 years. They are building bridges, roads, expanding airport like crazy (just can’t stop building terminals in SIP). Want to build one more airport even. Crimean shipbuilding industries, who suffered under Ukraine, receive investments. Ultimate goal - Crimea needs to be economically self-sufficient. Neither Ukraine nor Kosovo have a chance for that.

But - jobs are available, and people are taking them to upkeep themselves.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:26 am

Scorpius wrote:
My relatives in Ukraine, now the curse of independence, Western countries that have supported it and the current Ukrainian government. To oppose this power now in Ukraine people are afraid because it's dangerous. You can be arrested or even kidnapped, without reason. Or you may one day "accidentally" attack the radicals.

Now in Ukraine in order to be declared a "Muscovite", you just have to speak Russian and not support the local authority. And to be against Nazism. And for that, you can imprison, maim or kill. Do you support neo-Nazis, who oppressed the Ukrainian people. And this information not from the media or Wikipedia is the information from my relatives living in Ukraine.

Expectedly. Those neo-Nazis are the only enforcement resource, and the police doesn’t want to deal with them. They are simply on payroll of oligarchs and even smaller business groups. “Muscovite” is anyone who needs to be beaten up at them moment, or someone who didn’t pay his “protection fees” on time.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 am

anrec80 wrote:
Neither Ukraine nor Kosovo have a chance for that.


Kosovo is small, so less change. But Ukraine? No change for being economically self-sufficient? 45m people. Whom are you trying to kid? Literally, everyone could see that they could and should do it, when Russia withdraws its support from the separatist in the east and stops meddling in their local affairs and they build up their institutions and continue to fight corruption.

As for Crimea, I have a hard time seeing it, you will continue to pay for it in the foreseeable future.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:23 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Nope, not from me, if it was a legitimate referendum, I would have been fine with the outcome, now it is just Russian aggression. But what you are saying is that they could do whatever they want, because the rest of the world would be against it anyway. Bit simplistic right.


Why do Crimeans have to listen to your opinion in order to determine where and how do they want to live? They made their choice for themselves and their future, not for you. You can call it anyhow you like - “illegitimate”, “annexation”, but it’s not what matters. What matters is - overwhelming majority wanted to join Russia, and were taken there. Their wish and opinion ought to be respected.


They don't have to listen to me, but why do they have to listen to you?

But you still don't get it. Until there is a legitimate annexation, the Crimea will be Russia's Tibet or Russia's Western Sahara or Russia's Golan Heights. The world doesn't recognize it. You might not care, but that severely limits the economic potential of the region.

The overwhelming majority you speak of, how do you know and that is the whole point. The wish needs to be respected, I fully agree with that, but their wishes should be first taken in in a legitimate way, without fraud, without armed men inside the voting chambers, with a decent and free debate. Do you get it now?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:26 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What legitimate referendum had 80% turnout? And you have a very special way to look at history.

In accordance with a secret protocol within the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact of 1939 that divided Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence, the Soviet Army entered eastern Poland in September 1939, and then coerced Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania into mutual assistance treaties which granted them the right to establish military bases in these. In June 1940, the Red Army occupied all of the territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and the Red Army installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" the Soviet Union in August 1940 and were incorporated into it as the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic, the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states

So the truth is: Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (NAZI Germany and USSR pact), lead to the Baltic states occupation --> fake elections --> fake parliament asked to join the USSR.

And on the economy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Tiger

Where do you come up with this stuff and are you sincere or do you have an agenda? And I don't know which is worse.


What legitimate referendum had 80% turnout? And you have a very special way to look at history.

That's it. Learn the history.
1.The referendum on independence of Armenia, 1991: 95 percent of voters participated in the vote and 99 % voted in favor of withdrawal of Armenia from the Soviet Union
2. The referendum on independence of Georgia, 1991: participated 90,79 % of voters 99,08 % of whom voted for the restoration of state sovereignty of Georgia
3. The referendum on independence of Latvia (carried out in violation of Soviet legislation): attended 1 666 128 residents of the Republic of Latvia (87,6 % of all voters), 73,7 % were in favor of independence, 24.7 per cent voted againstattended 1 666 128 residents of the Republic of Latvia (87,6 % of all voters), 73,7 % were in favor of independence, 24.7 per cent voted against.
4. The referendum on the independence of Lithuania: it was attended by 84 % of voters, 90.4% of them voted for independence
5. In Estonia for the referendum on independence could only vote the "right of the citizens of the Republic of Estonia" (mainly ethnic Estonians) and the person who received the so-called "green card" of the Congress of Estonia (subject to obtaining the card was a statement of support for the independence of the Republic of Estonia).

Of all the republics of the Soviet Union less than 80% was only in Russia and in Estonia. But in Russia and in Estonia the results of the referendum on preserving the Soviet Union, the people chose the option to "Save the USSR". The referendum on the independence of Estonia, which was held at the "more correct" counting, naturally showed "the desire of the people of Estonia to be independent."

So answer us now.What legitimate referendum had 80% turnout?


I don't know, I asked the question in the first place. But you have me confused, now you accept these wishes of the people so you see that Russia has no legitimate claim on these countries? Or what are you trying to proof here by quoting these numbers?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:43 am

Scorpius wrote:
The rule is simple - do not steal uncontrollably and at least partially to invest in infrastructure. Compare, for example, with Berezovsky, who looted all the assets brought to the UK and went.

So you are a bit less evil if you steal a little? I think it is more "shut up" and do what you are told by Putin, if not you are better off abroad. If I were an oligarch I would have left a long time ago. Putin is the looter in chief and you still say he is the best of all the worst options. I think that is a very cynical approach.

Scorpius wrote:
If you are at enmity with the whole system, you will inevitably fall under the influence of another system. In Russia there are two vector forces, one directed to the Kremlin, the second to the West. Outside of these vectors any political power you do not possess. No political power, no access to capital. No access to the capital you will not become an oligarch.If you are at enmity with the whole system, you will inevitably fall under the influence of another system. In Russia there are two vector forces, one directed to the Kremlin, the second to the West. Outside of these vectors any political power you do not possess. No political power, no access to capital. No access to the capital you will not become an oligarch.
For the emergence in Russia of the financial elite, not come to wealth through criminal should take at least 50 years.


I don't think you can become an oligarch if you are orientated to the west. How would that work? The Kremlin controls everything, so if you want to steal from the Russian population, then you need to be connected to the Kremlin, not the west. I thought the Sochi games were a brilliant example, estimates are made that half of the budget was corruption and payoffs, 20bn if memory serves me right. So how about the World cup next year, which pockets were lined with gold for this one? Independent investigations show that Russia is a very corrupt country.

Scorpius wrote:
For ordinary citizens, the Soviet Union was a state with great social sphere, where there was no chance to stay without a roof over your head, work and money. Where it was possible to be born into a poor family of ordinary factory workers and become the head of state - all the way for citizens were open. Significant constraints were the only difficulties with going abroad (again - difficulties can be overcome) and censorship. But now I can say that the censorship in the USSR was a bad example. Looking at the corruption in the current film, theater and literature with music, really want to return to that Soviet censorship, where our children are not exposed to such an attack any mud and the debris, as it is now.

Now you make a lot of sense. The ordinary citizen got screwed by the oligarchs and the oligarch in chief. From the wild west capitalism in the 90'ish to outright corrupt state of today. All the rights of ordinary citizens got tramped up on. But there is an alternative: more controlled capitalism like we have in western Europe. Capitalism with a harsh market master which sets the rules and enforces them without regards to the owner: democracy, free press, free justice system etc. etc. etc. Then you come to the universal human rights and we need to live by that. That is what I wish for the ordinary Russian.

As for culture, it is up to your country/adults to decide what you want to show to your kids. And if you don't want you or your kids to watch it, then just turn of the telivision or the internet.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 am

Scorpius wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

You’d have to be a complete moron to think anyone living in Crimea would have wanted to remain part of Ukraine, so why waste the ink putting that option on the ballot? It’s like asking a Kosovan if they would rather be Serbian, just not going to happen.


Wouldn’t compare Crimea and Kosovo. Look at the results and turnout (>80%) in Crimean referendum. In Kosovo there was no polls ever. And, last but not least, Kosovan “statehood” isn’t unlike that of post-Maidan Ukraine. There is simply no economy that can support the statehood, and for most people such “independence” just doesn’t work. In Ukraine, the idea of statehood and independence isn’t in as much demand as it seems to be - given that most people from there would want to leave the country.

So I wouldn’t say “just not going to happen” - very well might. Keep in mind that in 1940 Baltic States asked Stalin to take them into USSR themselves, for exact same reasons - the independence simply wasn’t working for them, and they were turning into a poor, God forgotten edge of Europe. Not unlike now really.


My relatives in Ukraine, now the curse of independence, Western countries that have supported it and the current Ukrainian government. To oppose this power now in Ukraine people are afraid because it's dangerous. You can be arrested or even kidnapped, without reason. Or you may one day "accidentally" attack the radicals.
Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... YwZN08xok8
1.01.2013, March of Ukrainian neo-Nazis who shout: "Stop drinking, it's time to fight. Muscovites on knives!".
"Muscovites" - this Russian. That is, neo-Nazis urge to kill the RussianThat is, neo-Nazis urge to kill the Russian. Before the events in the Crimea more than a year.
Now in Ukraine in order to be declared a "Muscovite", you just have to speak Russian and not support the local authority. And to be against Nazism. And for that, you can imprison, maim or kill. Do you support neo-Nazis, who oppressed the Ukrainian people. And this information not from the media or Wikipedia is the information from my relatives living in Ukraine.


So not unlike what is happening in Russia?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
The rule is simple - do not steal uncontrollably and at least partially to invest in infrastructure. Compare, for example, with Berezovsky, who looted all the assets brought to the UK and went.

So you are a bit less evil if you steal a little? I think it is more "shut up" and do what you are told by Putin, if not you are better off abroad. If I were an oligarch I would have left a long time ago. Putin is the looter in chief and you still say he is the best of all the worst options. I think that is a very cynical approach.

Scorpius wrote:
If you are at enmity with the whole system, you will inevitably fall under the influence of another system. In Russia there are two vector forces, one directed to the Kremlin, the second to the West. Outside of these vectors any political power you do not possess. No political power, no access to capital. No access to the capital you will not become an oligarch.If you are at enmity with the whole system, you will inevitably fall under the influence of another system. In Russia there are two vector forces, one directed to the Kremlin, the second to the West. Outside of these vectors any political power you do not possess. No political power, no access to capital. No access to the capital you will not become an oligarch.
For the emergence in Russia of the financial elite, not come to wealth through criminal should take at least 50 years.


I don't think you can become an oligarch if you are orientated to the west. How would that work? The Kremlin controls everything, so if you want to steal from the Russian population, then you need to be connected to the Kremlin, not the west. I thought the Sochi games were a brilliant example, estimates are made that half of the budget was corruption and payoffs, 20bn if memory serves me right. So how about the World cup next year, which pockets were lined with gold for this one? Independent investigations show that Russia is a very corrupt country.

Scorpius wrote:
For ordinary citizens, the Soviet Union was a state with great social sphere, where there was no chance to stay without a roof over your head, work and money. Where it was possible to be born into a poor family of ordinary factory workers and become the head of state - all the way for citizens were open. Significant constraints were the only difficulties with going abroad (again - difficulties can be overcome) and censorship. But now I can say that the censorship in the USSR was a bad example. Looking at the corruption in the current film, theater and literature with music, really want to return to that Soviet censorship, where our children are not exposed to such an attack any mud and the debris, as it is now.

Now you make a lot of sense. The ordinary citizen got screwed by the oligarchs and the oligarch in chief. From the wild west capitalism in the 90'ish to outright corrupt state of today. All the rights of ordinary citizens got tramped up on. But there is an alternative: more controlled capitalism like we have in western Europe. Capitalism with a harsh market master which sets the rules and enforces them without regards to the owner: democracy, free press, free justice system etc. etc. etc. Then you come to the universal human rights and we need to live by that. That is what I wish for the ordinary Russian.

As for culture, it is up to your country/adults to decide what you want to show to your kids. And if you don't want you or your kids to watch it, then just turn of the telivision or the internet.



No in the West, freedom of speech, or free press, or human rights, etc, etc. About what press freedom is about, if you constantly censor the press? RT under permanent sanctions - this is censorship. What about the human rights in question, if NATO countries attacking countries around the world and the killing of civilians, disrupting their main right - the right to life?
What kind of free market is it when we all have eyes the story unfolds with Embraer, and protective tariffs at 300%? What about trade quotas in the EU? What kind of freedom?
You say that the West is freedom, and in Russia it not? But in Russia you can't be imprisoned because of the word "Nigger", because in Russia it's not in a negative sense, and in Russia, there was racial segregation. We have the country's population of 180 different nationalities. We do not prohibit planting fruits and vegetables on their land.
In Russia, much much easier, or not a problem, unlike the EU and USA.

Corruption in Russia, by the way, is several times lower than in Ukraine, and is approximately on the same level as in the United States.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:06 pm

Scorpius wrote:
No in the West, freedom of speech, or free press, or human rights, etc, etc. About what press freedom is about, if you constantly censor the press? RT under permanent sanctions - this is censorship. What about the human rights in question, if NATO countries attacking countries around the world and the killing of civilians, disrupting their main right - the right to life?
What kind of free market is it when we all have eyes the story unfolds with Embraer, and protective tariffs at 300%? What about trade quotas in the EU? What kind of freedom?
You say that the West is freedom, and in Russia it not? But in Russia you can't be imprisoned because of the word "Nigger", because in Russia it's not in a negative sense, and in Russia, there was racial segregation. We have the country's population of 180 different nationalities. We do not prohibit planting fruits and vegetables on their land.
In Russia, much much easier, or not a problem, unlike the EU and USA.

Corruption in Russia, by the way, is several times lower than in Ukraine and is approximately on the same level as in the United States.


- Does the west censor the press? Please give me your source. I have one:
* The Netherlands: 5
* Russia: 148
https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table

- "RT under permanent sanctions": Russia Today is a Kremlin propaganda channel aimed at the west. And show me please where they are under permanent sanctions? If I wanted to, I could watch it, but why would I?

- If the west decides to attack a country, it needs to be cleared by a UNSC resolution (mandate from the UN, which the Russian Federation has inherited the permanent seat of the USSR). Or there needs to be some other way in which international law dictates some action must be taken. Most countries were a mess when actions were taken and the life of civilians are at stake. Civilians aren't targeted by western countries. So the question was to leave the barfight as it was or to try to stop it. Not unlike Russia is claiming to do in other neighboring countries.

- Don't know what you are claiming here. So the N word can be said in Russia and isn't a negative word, so there is freedom? In the Netherlands, you can say it, but you will be talked down (hopefully). 180 nationalities? Ok, but what is your point? I believe there are 181 nationalities in Amsterdam. In the west you can say anything about the current government and go and march in the streets against the government, can you without repercussions? Can journalist write whatever they want about the powers to be? Are gay's left alone in Russia without hassle from anyone, including the law? So I say the universal human rights chapters are much more lived by than in Russia. That can be objectively varied, just see what human right watch, amnesty international or other NGO's write about all countries.

- What is your point about planting fruits and vegetables? Ok, you can, fine. if you own land in the Netherlands you could as well, plant anything you want in your garden. Most don't because it is much easier to go to the store which in on almost any corner (or have it delivered if you wish). The Netherlands is vastly more populated though, so much less land available per person, so land is expensive in the Netherlands.
* Average in the world: 56 / sq km
* 30. The Netherlands: 404 / sq km
* 97. Russia: 9 / sq km
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... on_density

Do you have any evidence of a western country which prohibits growing and eating your own fruits and vegetables?

- "Corruption in Russia, by the way, is several times lower than in Ukraine and is approximately on the same level as in the United States." please back this claim up as well. According to the index from Transparency international, this is not correct:
* The Netherlands: 8 / 176
* America: 18 / 176
* Russia: 131 / 176
* Ukraine: 131 / 176

Where do you get vastly different numbers from?

Could it be that you don't have a clue how the west is behaving and how the western countries work and what liberties western citizens have? Or at least have a distorted view of it? Something you continue to blame me (and others) about having of Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:14 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Neither Ukraine nor Kosovo have a chance for that.


Kosovo is small, so less change. But Ukraine? No change for being economically self-sufficient? 45m people. Whom are you trying to kid? Literally, everyone could see that they could and should do it, when Russia withdraws its support from the separatist in the east and stops meddling in their local affairs and they build up their institutions and continue to fight corruption.

As for Crimea, I have a hard time seeing it, you will continue to pay for it in the foreseeable future.


Ukraine will never be a success, they were left with many industries after the split and what have they done with them, shipbuilding gone, aerospace almost gone, engine building lost there biggest customer.......heaven help the EU taxpayer if they ever become a member.


We will see in 25 years.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Neither Ukraine nor Kosovo have a chance for that.


Kosovo is small, so less change. But Ukraine? No change for being economically self-sufficient? 45m people. Whom are you trying to kid? Literally, everyone could see that they could and should do it, when Russia withdraws its support from the separatist in the east and stops meddling in their local affairs and they build up their institutions and continue to fight corruption.

As for Crimea, I have a hard time seeing it, you will continue to pay for it in the foreseeable future.


Ukraine will never be a success, they were left with many industries after the split and what have they done with them, shipbuilding gone, aerospace almost gone, engine building lost there biggest customer.......heaven help the EU taxpayer if they ever become a member.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
No in the West, freedom of speech, or free press, or human rights, etc, etc. About what press freedom is about, if you constantly censor the press? RT under permanent sanctions - this is censorship. What about the human rights in question, if NATO countries attacking countries around the world and the killing of civilians, disrupting their main right - the right to life?
What kind of free market is it when we all have eyes the story unfolds with Embraer, and protective tariffs at 300%? What about trade quotas in the EU? What kind of freedom?
You say that the West is freedom, and in Russia it not? But in Russia you can't be imprisoned because of the word "Nigger", because in Russia it's not in a negative sense, and in Russia, there was racial segregation. We have the country's population of 180 different nationalities. We do not prohibit planting fruits and vegetables on their land.
In Russia, much much easier, or not a problem, unlike the EU and USA.

Corruption in Russia, by the way, is several times lower than in Ukraine and is approximately on the same level as in the United States.


- Does the west censor the press? Please give me your source. I have one:
* The Netherlands: 5
* Russia: 148
https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table

- "RT under permanent sanctions": Russia Today is a Kremlin propaganda channel aimed at the west. And show me please where they are under permanent sanctions? If I wanted to, I could watch it, but why would I?

- If the west decides to attack a country, it needs to be cleared by a UNSC resolution (mandate from the UN, which the Russian Federation has inherited the permanent seat of the USSR). Or there needs to be some other way in which international law dictates some action must be taken. Most countries were a mess when actions were taken and the life of civilians are at stake. Civilians aren't targeted by western countries. So the question was to leave the barfight as it was or to try to stop it. Not unlike Russia is claiming to do in other neighboring countries.

- Don't know what you are claiming here. So the N word can be said in Russia and isn't a negative word, so there is freedom? In the Netherlands, you can say it, but you will be talked down (hopefully). 180 nationalities? Ok, but what is your point? I believe there are 181 nationalities in Amsterdam. In the west you can say anything about the current government and go and march in the streets against the government, can you without repercussions? Can journalist write whatever they want about the powers to be? Are gay's left alone in Russia without hassle from anyone, including the law? So I say the universal human rights chapters are much more lived by than in Russia. That can be objectively varied, just see what human right watch, amnesty international or other NGO's write about all countries.

- What is your point about planting fruits and vegetables? Ok, you can, fine. if you own land in the Netherlands you could as well, plant anything you want in your garden. Most don't because it is much easier to go to the store which in on almost any corner (or have it delivered if you wish). The Netherlands is vastly more populated though, so much less land available per person, so land is expensive in the Netherlands.
* Average in the world: 56 / sq km
* 30. The Netherlands: 404 / sq km
* 97. Russia: 9 / sq km
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... on_density

Do you have any evidence of a western country which prohibits growing and eating your own fruits and vegetables?

- "Corruption in Russia, by the way, is several times lower than in Ukraine and is approximately on the same level as in the United States." please back this claim up as well. According to the index from Transparency international, this is not correct:
* The Netherlands: 8 / 176
* America: 18 / 176
* Russia: 131 / 176
* Ukraine: 131 / 176

Where do you get vastly different numbers from?

Could it be that you don't have a clue how the west is behaving and how the western countries work and what liberties western citizens have? Or at least have a distorted view of it? Something you continue to blame me (and others) about having of Russia.



All these ratings are numbers, written by men. People paid to Russia was terribly corrupt country, and these people write the ratings to Russia was terribly corrupt country. Come on, you know perfectly well that in the US corruption has long been official. Called "lobbying". Recently in offshore accounts found $10 000 000, which belongs to the Queen of Britain. Even earlier, I remember the terrible scandal with the arrest of the officials of sports committees. Recently in Estonia detained the Minister for fraud. Yes, in the Estonia, which in the ranking to 12th position. As I said earlier - the West is happy to accept Russian oligarchs, knowing that all of their fortunes amassed illegally.

About RT - whatever propaganda or channel in your opinion, the constant attacks on him and the constant restriction is censorship. What kind of free press you can then say?

If the west decides to attack a country, it needs to be cleared by a UNSC resolution

Yeah, he's the mandate, which did not have NATO troops invading Yugoslavia, or Libya, or Syria. Or in Vietnam, or Korea. And I only list the major conflicts, with hundreds of thousands of victims.

Civilians aren't targeted by western countries

too many of them died at the hands of NATO, not to be a target for Western countries.

So the question was to leave the barfight as it was or to try to stop it

This is how to extinguish the fire using a flamethrower.

I believe there are 181 nationalities in Amsterdam

A matter of faith, not knowledge. I know that Russia is home to 194 nationalities. That's not counting included in these ethnic groups. And all these nationalities in Russia there are more than one hundred years. For comparison, in the Netherlands there live representatives of 37 nationalities, most of whom emigrated only recently. In Russia, they are not immigrants - it's their home, here is their story, their culture.
So when I see in the West tell about some kind of Russian nationalism, I say this is bullshit. So I can only say someone who knows nothing about Russia and its history.

In the west you can say anything about the current government and go and march in the streets against the government, can you without repercussions?

Yeah, it's easy - just check first this March in the local town hall. And then for the protection this March will provide the police and arrange for the meeting venue. The problem is that the opposition prefers just not to do it, and conduct such activities with the violation of our laws.
Oh, my God, 50 metres from red square, I personally saw a man who a few hours sticking with a sign on which was written protests against the government - and NONE of these few hours never arrested him, never took and did not come to remove it all on camera. And many of these shares that are held without provocation, peaceful and quiet. But you also do not show - it is not usual to bring under the theme "Oh, the horror - to the terrible Russian people protest against the dictator."

Can journalist write whatever they want about the powers to be?

I too often think that our journalists could write something more objective than they usually write. In Russia at all, for any reason, up a huge hype. Now, in connection with the loss of payload resulting in a crash when launching from the spaceport "East" in the media there is a real hysteria. Media has reached the point that to blame Putin personally. Sat, probably, and wire in the booster "Frigate" sawing. Personally to worsen the life of people, I guess. A bloody dictator.

Are gay's left alone in Russia without hassle from anyone, including the law?

This is a very stupid accusation. In fact, it is so often used, that's annoying. And shows a complete ignorance saying those things about the situation in Russia.
First, you yourself said that you know that in Russia a popular traditional family values. So. In Russia there is a Patriarchal traditionalism. Traditional gender roles - the man is the breadwinner and protector, the woman is a homemaker and teacher of children.
Nobody forbids someone to be gay, lesbian, transvestite or something. But in a society you do not explicitly add yourself to the popularity of such behavior. More than that - everything that happens in your bedroom should stay in the bedroom. The fact that Russia is limited by law in this respect is the fact that prohibited propaganda of homosexuality and other perversions. Primarily it is aimed at protecting our childs from this propaganda. Secondly - to protect the sexual minorities. The society does not want legalization is the right companies. No one will force you to take the test on heterosexuality, others do NOT WANT to KNOW about how and what you indulge yourself in the bedroom.Please respect our right not to know about your sexual preferences. We don't need and we don't want to have anything to do. And all the problems with the law you will not.
By the way, you do not mind that Russian LGBT people often organize events with posters, on which the inscription in English?

That can be objectively varied, just see what human right watch, amnesty international or other NGO's write about all countries

These organizations are just another tools of Western propaganda, and no matter how many times you call them "objective", they will not be objective.
I live in Russia, and I can certainly see how different real life is from the picture, which is created by the Western media.
In order to understand that over the last 18 years of his life in Russia is changing for the better, I don't need to read Newspapers or watch TV. I have enough to go out and look around.
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:05 am

Dutchy wrote:

Kosovo is small, so less change. But Ukraine? No change for being economically self-sufficient? 45m people. Whom are you trying to kid? Literally, everyone could see that they could and should do it, when Russia withdraws its support from the separatist in the east and stops meddling in their local affairs and they build up their institutions and continue to fight corruption.

As for Crimea, I have a hard time seeing it, you will continue to pay for it in the foreseeable future.


Having read this post about Ukraine, I am under the table. :rotfl:

No change for being self-sufficient - yes, that changed. They were self-sufficient and at least somehow supporting themselves, with access to Russian markets. Expectedly, that changed - after Ukraine imposed some "sanctions" on Russia, poking around with someone else's gas in their pipelines.

Dutchy wrote:

they build up their institutions and continue to fight corruption.


Aaaahhhahahahahahahahahahhaaaaaa!!!!!!!!
First, nobody in Kiev arranged their Maidan to fight corruption. Whoever supported it - they did it to get to the feed lot. They wanted to be able to split and direct streams of money. Nothing else. What you are saying isn't unlike saying "wolves fight against eating sheep". Doesn't happen, as you guessed.

Second - institutions - even funnier. Political parties are examples of such institutions. As of 2013, the only political party that was beginning to be that - was Yanukovich's Regional Party. Any others - are just "groups for hire" for major business conglomerates (whatever of those remain). So Maidan was a HUGE step back in this regards.

And overall - to maidan like this, support armed coups and talk about building state institutions!
Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeheheheheheheheheheheheheheheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haven't laughed like this for a long time. Thank you! You've made my weekend !!!
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:14 am

Dutchy wrote:

As for Crimea, I have a hard time seeing it, you will continue to pay for it in the foreseeable future.


Don't worry - early Spring 2014, Russian not only took the Crimea, but also returned control over many of their strategic resource mining enterprises, and MADE(!) a few tens of billions of dollars. All that by having taken advantage of the sanctions and and the noise around them. And you are talking about "paying"? Your investors and even pension funds already paid.
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
We will see in 25 years.


25 years in 21st century is a VERY long time. Too much can happen. Your EU and/or NATO can fall apart; it's enough time for a few wars between European nations, and even for 3rd world war. Let alone for stop of Ukrainian support. The whole Europe (or at least as we know it today) is likely to stop existing in 25 years.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
They don't have to listen to me, but why do they have to listen to you?

But you still don't get it. Until there is a legitimate annexation, the Crimea will be Russia's Tibet or Russia's Western Sahara or Russia's Golan Heights. The world doesn't recognize it. You might not care, but that severely limits the economic potential of the region.

The overwhelming majority you speak of, how do you know and that is the whole point. The wish needs to be respected, I fully agree with that, but their wishes should be first taken in in a legitimate way, without fraud, without armed men inside the voting chambers, with a decent and free debate. Do you get it now?


What do I not get? They don't have to listen to neither you nor to me. They have a right to determine their future, and they did exactly that. Speaking of legitimacy - Crimeans themselves believe it was perfectly legitimate, and so do Russians. What you, or some "the rest of the world" think of legitimacy - doesn't really matter to them. You can't possibly "defraud" a vote into 80-90% (realistically 4-5 percentage points), and you can't possibly make 2.5 million people to go to a referendum and vote certain way by the means of 3-4 thousands of military. Just no way. Crimeans also had 25 years of Ukrainian rule for their debates, and they were done with that long before winter 2014.

Speaking of economic potential - it's still by far greater with Russians, than under Ukraine.
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