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anrec80
Posts: 378
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:54 am

Mir wrote:

The referendum was held under Russian military occupation with no option to remain part of Ukraine. The referendum was not legal per Ukraine's constitution because the whole country needed to be able to vote. That's annexation. Russia should never have been there.


What do you mean “no option”? They had 2 questions - “Do you want Crimea to cecede from Ukraine?” and “Do you want Crimea to join Russian Federation?”. Both of these questions received some, albeit small, share of “No” answers. So they were given their choice. Speaking of “legality” - Kosovo didn’t have any voting at all, just in parliament. On either side of border with Serbia,and it’s OK apparently.
 
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HELyes
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:38 am

Scorpius wrote:
the war with Finland began after Finland finally failed negotiations in which the Soviet Union proposed the EXCHANGE of territories.


You know what happened to our neighbor Estonia when they agreed "exhancing territories"... Stalin's plan was to occupy Finland and the Baltic States, to his surprise Finland manage to resist and he needed to change his plans.

Invading the Baltic states and Finland in 1939-40 was part of the pact SU made with Nazi Germany, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was singed in Aug 1939. This treaty included a protocol that divided territories of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, and Romania, into German and Soviet "spheres of influence", anticipating "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E ... ntrop_Pact
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:47 am

BawliBooch wrote:
I am confused! NATO has a "right" to exist "because its voluntary" (strange train of thought there).

BUT Russia cannot take steps to defend itself against NATO encroaching on their sphere of influence without being accused of aggression? :old:

The US is entitled to have its "sphere of influence" but no one else is? "Manifest Destiny" part deux?

You are right, you are confused. What about it being voluntary is strange? No one is required to participate in it, nations that join it do so of their own free volition.
And how is it "NATO aggression" if a nation that was once under another pact, that is next to Russia, voluntarily wishes to and petitions to join NATO? Why should that nation have to consider Russia's sphere of influence? How is that the USA imposing or being "entitled" to its sphere of influence? And also, what is Russia "defending itself against"? Nations freely doing what they wish to do that does not affect Russia?

Are you saying free nations should not be allowed to do things that neighboring nations do not wish? Why do you believe that nations should not be allowed to do that?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:17 am

anrec80 wrote:
What do you mean “no option”?

You fail to understand the country that had no option. It was Russia that had no option, they could not afford to lose Sevastopol, from losing a "Russian enclave" where the population was majority Russian. The loss would have been unacceptable, they could not afford to lose it. The sad side effect though has been that a more viable port, Novorossiysk is/was being developed as the fleet primary, is now impacted by the massive redirection of funds.

If Russia had actually had a choice there would have been the option for Crimean independence on the ballot. However Russia had no choice.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:41 am

Tugger wrote:

If Russia had actually had a choice there would have been the option for Crimean independence on the ballot. However Russia had no choice.

Tugg

And that’s exactly what happened after the voting. Crimea declared independence that was acknowledged by Russia, and then Russia signed join treaty with now independent Crimean Republic. Nothing prevented Russia to just acknowledge Crimean independence and not proceed with accepting it into the Federation - similar to Abkhazia and South Ossetia after Aug 2008 operation. They could have as well just signed a set of treaties with Crimea about the military bases, just as they had with Ukraine.
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:19 am

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:

If Russia had actually had a choice there would have been the option for Crimean independence on the ballot. However Russia had no choice.

Tugg

And that’s exactly what happened after the voting. Crimea declared independence that was acknowledged by Russia, and then Russia signed join treaty with now independent Crimean Republic. Nothing prevented Russia to just acknowledge Crimean independence and not proceed with accepting it into the Federation - similar to Abkhazia and South Ossetia after Aug 2008 operation. They could have as well just signed a set of treaties with Crimea about the military bases, just as they had with Ukraine.

That is not what happened. As you yourself stated the Crimean Penisula had only the choice to join the the "Russian federation" or remain with Ukraine. It was worded poorly though.

First option: "Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?"
Second option: Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:22 am

Tugger wrote:
Are you saying free nations should not be allowed to do things that neighboring nations do not wish? Why do you believe that nations should not be allowed to do that?

Tugg


Ofcourse nations are free to be allowed to do as they wish.

Surely it wouldnt be inappropriate if in reaction to continued NATO expansion, Russia chooses to revive the "Warsaw Pact" in another shape & form? Perhaps a "Havana Pact" including member states in Central America & Caribbean?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:22 am

BawliBooch wrote:
I am confused! NATO has a "right" to exist "because its voluntary" (strange train of thought there).

BUT Russia cannot take steps to defend itself against NATO encroaching on their sphere of influence without being accused of aggression?


NATO doesn't exist to make offensive inroads or aggression against Russia; it exists because Russia has a history of militarily running roughshod over many of those NATO member nations to gain resources, create a buffer between Western Europe and itself, or both.

So as a result, NATO exists as a mutual defense pact, and there's really only one nation the NATO members want or need defense from...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:26 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Are you saying free nations should not be allowed to do things that neighboring nations do not wish? Why do you believe that nations should not be allowed to do that?

Tugg


Ofcourse nations are free to be allowed to do as they wish.

Surely it wouldnt be inappropriate if in reaction to continued NATO expansion, Russia chooses to revive the "Warsaw Pact" in another shape & form? Perhaps a "Havana Pact" including member states in Central America & Caribbean?

Absolutely, it would not be inappropriate. They are free to go ahead and propose to do so.
(Sorry, misread your post originally).

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:26 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Perhaps a "Havana Pact" including member states in Central America & Caribbean?


Do those countries live in a reasonable fear that NATO forces would invade and occupy their territories forever?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:19 am

Tugger wrote:
That is not what happened. As you yourself stated the Crimean Penisula had only the choice to join the the "Russian federation" or remain with Ukraine. It was worded poorly though.

First option: "Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?"
Second option: Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

Tugg


Are we talking about choices of Russia or Crimea here? After the referendum, Crimean leadership first declared independence from Ukraine, having voters' mandate. And then, as a newly formed sovereign nation, asked to be accepted into Russian Federation. Yes, ballots were worded like you said. After all, it's a decision of people living in a certain region they are entitled to. And they don't have to comply with Ukrainian legislature, based on Kosovo precedent.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:23 am

EA CO AS wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Perhaps a "Havana Pact" including member states in Central America & Caribbean?


Do those countries live in a reasonable fear that NATO forces would invade and occupy their territories forever?


The problem with NATO is that nobody knows what to expect. Whom will they decide to bomb and when. So NATO gave them plenty of reasons for concern.
 
JJJ
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:28 am

tu204 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Roads are a little better, they can now clean toilets or load boxes in the EU, but other than that, it's the same shit.


If the analysis of the situation is just that roads are a little better and that they can go clean toilets in the EU I really feel sorry for your Lithuanian relatives.

Most Lithuanians paint a different picture, though.


Care to be objective and give some examples? My Lithuanian cousin (not a drop of Russian in him) graduated in Copenhagen, where if you ain't Danish, you ain't got a chance. Dude works in Vilnius, making 1200 Euros, where that is considered "the shit" (big money), and is asking me for help on how to get Russian Citizenship so he can move here. Do to want to give me a list of the benefits Lithuania recieved from switching opressors?


Of course personal situations, degrees, etc matter a lot but seriously your cousin couldn't get anything in Copenhagen? A city where almost one-quarter of the population is either foreign or son of foreign immigrants and that has an unemployment rate under 5%? Of course it's an expensive place (not as much as Moscow, though), though the average salary is over 3.000 euro per month.

It might well be that he has some really, really specific degree. Or that he's not fluent enough in Danish, but plenty of foreigners make their lives in Denmark perfectly fine.

So he's in Lithuania now, making 1.200 euro/month which indeed is OK-ish since their average salary is 660/month.... but moving to Russia with their average salary under 500 euro? Even assuming he's fluent in the language (though you said not a drop of Russian in him) doesn't really work out.... and that's without accounting how terribly expensive living in the Russian big cities is.

Yes, I know some sectors in Russia pay big (I go to Russia at least twice a year) but then again what's so specific about his training that he can't make it in CPH but he can give a shot in Moscow or LED.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:36 am

tu204 wrote:
Anyhow, let's come back to this subject in 50 years and see what Poland and the Baltic states are saying about their masters. Can't speak for Poland, but I can sure as hell speak for Lithuanians where I have relatives that I visit. They went from having no sovreignty and being under the USSR to having no sovreignty and being under the EU. Roads are a little better, they can now clean toilets or load boxes in the EU, but other than that, it's the same shit. But for now they still see themselves as a sovreign nation that asks "How High?" when western Europe asks them to jump.


I usually agree with you but here I have to disagree, I've been visiting the Baltic States for the past ten years, and driven around them extensively, the roads and infrastructure in both countries has improved significantly over that time, I would say the improvement is easily equal to the improvement in St Petersburgs roads or Russian roads in general over the same time period, which as you know has been significant.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:39 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Do those countries live in a reasonable fear that NATO forces would invade and occupy their territories forever?


Washington driven "Peaceful" Regime Change is certainly a fear in many countries around the world.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
anrec80
Posts: 378
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:45 am

JJJ wrote:
Of course personal situations, degrees, etc matter a lot but seriously your cousin couldn't get anything in Copenhagen? A city where almost one-quarter of the population is either foreign or son of foreign immigrants and that has an unemployment rate under 5%? Of course it's an expensive place (not as much as Moscow, though), though the average salary is over 3.000 euro per month.

Yes, I know some sectors in Russia pay big (I go to Russia at least twice a year) but then again what's so specific about his training that he can't make it in CPH but he can give a shot in Moscow or LED.


This is not the first time I hear about foreigners getting integrated into a Western European society (not only Danish). Really - the only realistic chance for, say, a young Lithuanian to enter a career field in, say, Denmark would be to come to the country at the age of 17 and get his education there. Pretty much anything else - neither education nor experience would make such a "new European" unemployable for a middle class job. With their own countries de-industrialized and offering very limited opportunities to make living, they have to go wherever they can get any job to keep their pants up. And it's not good for their countries first and foremost - their young people must be working on growing and establishing their own countries, as opposed to fixing plumbing and peeling fish elsewhere.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:49 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I usually agree with you but here I have to disagree, I've been visiting the Baltic States for the past ten years, and driven around them extensively, the roads and infrastructure in both countries has improved significantly over that time, I would say the improvement is easily equal to the improvement in St Petersburgs roads or Russian roads in general over the same time period, which as you know has been significant.


The only difference is - Russians are doing it with their own efforts, under sanctions, with no access to Western capital markets. In Baltic states - it's all good while EU is giving them funds. But that will soon stop, and we are yet to see that their economies are capable of supporting even their half-ass statehood (which EU and NATO membership implies), let alone real sovereignty.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:59 am

Tugger wrote:
Russia as part of the USSR was an active agent of replacing home populations in countries with belligerent local citizens. Literally citizens of Russia and other Soviet countries were offered jobs and benefits and incentives to move to regions to dilute the local origin population. The Chinese do it today in regions like Tibet. It is an age old tactic to control a region over time.

Tugg


Which is the same tactic the US used in Hawaii and other Pacific Island territories and in the US mainland itself, when they moved the indigenous Native American population to reservations and took over the land they once occupied, didn't you also do the same in Texas and other former Mexican possessions? Your hands aren’t clean either.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:06 am

JJJ wrote:
tu204 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

If the analysis of the situation is just that roads are a little better and that they can go clean toilets in the EU I really feel sorry for your Lithuanian relatives.

Most Lithuanians paint a different picture, though.


Care to be objective and give some examples? My Lithuanian cousin (not a drop of Russian in him) graduated in Copenhagen, where if you ain't Danish, you ain't got a chance. Dude works in Vilnius, making 1200 Euros, where that is considered "the shit" (big money), and is asking me for help on how to get Russian Citizenship so he can move here. Do to want to give me a list of the benefits Lithuania recieved from switching opressors?


Of course personal situations, degrees, etc matter a lot but seriously your cousin couldn't get anything in Copenhagen? A city where almost one-quarter of the population is either foreign or son of foreign immigrants and that has an unemployment rate under 5%? Of course it's an expensive place (not as much as Moscow, though), though the average salary is over 3.000 euro per month.

It might well be that he has some really, really specific degree. Or that he's not fluent enough in Danish, but plenty of foreigners make their lives in Denmark perfectly fine.



To be fair though that 25% of the population who are foreign are doing all the really shitty jobs the Danish don't want to do anymore, unless you have some special skill not easily found in the local population you're going to have a hard time regardless of how good your Danish is. It's the same in Norway, I'm an exception and feel very lucky that my first manager was a well travelled and all round nice guy, I know of plenty of other western immigrants in Norway who don't have it anywhere near as good as I have.
 
JJJ
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:28 am

anrec80 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Of course personal situations, degrees, etc matter a lot but seriously your cousin couldn't get anything in Copenhagen? A city where almost one-quarter of the population is either foreign or son of foreign immigrants and that has an unemployment rate under 5%? Of course it's an expensive place (not as much as Moscow, though), though the average salary is over 3.000 euro per month.

Yes, I know some sectors in Russia pay big (I go to Russia at least twice a year) but then again what's so specific about his training that he can't make it in CPH but he can give a shot in Moscow or LED.


This is not the first time I hear about foreigners getting integrated into a Western European society (not only Danish). Really - the only realistic chance for, say, a young Lithuanian to enter a career field in, say, Denmark would be to come to the country at the age of 17 and get his education there. Pretty much anything else - neither education nor experience would make such a "new European" unemployable for a middle class job. With their own countries de-industrialized and offering very limited opportunities to make living, they have to go wherever they can get any job to keep their pants up. And it's not good for their countries first and foremost - their young people must be working on growing and establishing their own countries, as opposed to fixing plumbing and peeling fish elsewhere.


That goes for kiwirob, too, but by his own admission his cousin graduated there and now holds a decent-paying job in Lithuania. That tells me he's not a barely English-speaking Syrian immigrant toilet cleaner.

A couple of friends of mine live in Copenhagen for 5 or 6 years now. She went first (working as a nurse) with much better salary and conditions she could get here, and he followed one year later. He's a lawyer by training but he set up an import-export business that works fine enough and now employs 8 people (selling even to Netto and Bilka).

He always tells me Denmark is one of the easiest countries in the world to set up your own business.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:34 am

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
And speaking of the way of Russian democracy - whether it is right or wrong - it’s not up to you to decide. It’s up to Russian voters, who continue to support current politicians. Hence, they believe their leadership is leading their country the right way.

I am curious why you ban many would be candidates from running for office? Mr. Navalny is one well known example, he will likely be blocked from running next year. The idea that a current government gets to decide who runs contrary to your stated desire of a "real democracy".
In the USA when crap like Clinton pulled with Bernie gets exposed there is a price to pay but she is not in power. It would be like Obama being able to decide that Trump cannot run for office.

Tugg

In Russia is prohibited to run for presidential elections persons convicted in the criminal case. Navalny of this conviction is for fraud, which he operated with his brother.
Last edited by Scorpius on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:40 am

Mir wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

No, we are not forgetting anything. People in that “part of Ukraine” made their choice to get out of Ukraine and join Russia. That’s what seems to be forgotten, if anything.


The referendum was held under Russian military occupation with no option to remain part of Ukraine. The referendum was not legal per Ukraine's constitution because the whole country needed to be able to vote. That's annexation. Russia should never have been there.

When Ukraine unilaterally abolished the autonomy of Crimea, abolishing the Crimean Constitution - that this was an illegal annexation and violation of rights. From the Ukraine to the Crimea went through a General referendum, the opinion of the aggressor, annexing the territory of Crimea in 1998, no wonder the people of Crimea. I repeat - come to Crimea yourself and ask people's opinions on the situation in 2014.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:26 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Mir wrote:

The referendum was held under Russian military occupation with no option to remain part of Ukraine. The referendum was not legal per Ukraine's constitution because the whole country needed to be able to vote. That's annexation. Russia should never have been there.


What do you mean “no option”? They had 2 questions - “Do you want Crimea to cecede from Ukraine?” and “Do you want Crimea to join Russian Federation?”. Both of these questions received some, albeit small, share of “No” answers. So they were given their choice. Speaking of “legality” - Kosovo didn’t have any voting at all, just in parliament. On either side of border with Serbia,and it’s OK apparently.


Nope, those weren't the options:
- option 1: remain an independent country (they just declared independent in parliament)
- option 2: become part of Russia

So no option to remain part of Ukriane.

That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Mir wrote:

The referendum was held under Russian military occupation with no option to remain part of Ukraine. The referendum was not legal per Ukraine's constitution because the whole country needed to be able to vote. That's annexation. Russia should never have been there.


What do you mean “no option”? They had 2 questions - “Do you want Crimea to cecede from Ukraine?” and “Do you want Crimea to join Russian Federation?”. Both of these questions received some, albeit small, share of “No” answers. So they were given their choice. Speaking of “legality” - Kosovo didn’t have any voting at all, just in parliament. On either side of border with Serbia,and it’s OK apparently.


Nope, those weren't the options:
- option 1: remain an independent country (they just declared independent in parliament)
- option 2: become part of Russia

So no option to remain part of Ukriane.

That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.

You have no right to decide or to challenge the choice of the people of Crimea.
 
WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.


https://www.zois-berlin.de/fileadmin/me ... 3_2017.pdf

via ( use g-translate ):
https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Separa ... 02899.html
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

What do you mean “no option”? They had 2 questions - “Do you want Crimea to cecede from Ukraine?” and “Do you want Crimea to join Russian Federation?”. Both of these questions received some, albeit small, share of “No” answers. So they were given their choice. Speaking of “legality” - Kosovo didn’t have any voting at all, just in parliament. On either side of border with Serbia,and it’s OK apparently.


Nope, those weren't the options:
- option 1: remain an independent country (they just declared independent in parliament)
- option 2: become part of Russia

So no option to remain part of Ukriane.

That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.

You have no right to decide or to challenge the choice of the people of Crimea.


I have every right to challenge someone who claims this farce as a reason for the annexation of the Crimea. Not challenging the choice of the people of Crimea, because they had no choice and that is what you, again and again, fail to understand. If it was a legitimate referendum, like the one in Scotland, who am I to judge? But it wasn't.

WIederling wrote:


Seen such reports and that might be so, I am not against anything, if you follow international rules, this is just Russian aggression. The first piece of land illegally grabbed in Europe since the NAZI's.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Nope, those weren't the options:
- option 1: remain an independent country (they just declared independent in parliament)
- option 2: become part of Russia

So no option to remain part of Ukriane.

That is beside everything else. The referendum was a farce in all respect, how anyone is claiming otherwise or trying to legitimate the Russian annexation with it is just beyond me.

You have no right to decide or to challenge the choice of the people of Crimea.


I have every right to challenge someone who claims this farce as a reason for the annexation of the Crimea. Not challenging the choice of the people of Crimea, because they had no choice and that is what you, again and again, fail to understand. If it was a legitimate referendum, like the one in Scotland, who am I to judge? But it wasn't.

WIederling wrote:


Seen such reports and that might be so, I am not against anything, if you follow international rules, this is just Russian aggression. The first piece of land illegally grabbed in Europe since the NAZI's.


1. Soviet citizens were against the division of the country. Their opinion was ignored. Do you condemn the illegal division of the USSR?
2. Republic, declaring independence from the Soviet Union, did it the illegal way, violating the USSR Constitution. You condemn the illegal secession of these republics from the Soviet Union?
3. I was not the first time you have to personally go to the Crimea to make sure the fact the people of Crimea supports joining Russia. You can shout anything you want - the opinion of third parties is not taken into account. The residents of Crimea wanted to exercise their right of self-determination - they took it. Someone's attitude towards this fact nor for the inhabitants of Crimea, nor to citizens of Russia no longer has the value. The procedure was carried out in accordance with the requirements of international law.3. I was not the first time you have to personally go to the Crimea to make sure the fact the people of Crimea supports joining Russia. You can shout anything you want - the opinion of third parties is not taken into account. The residents of Crimea wanted to exercise their right of self-determination - they took it. Someone's attitude towards this fact nor for the inhabitants of Crimea, nor to citizens of Russia no longer has the value. The procedure was carried out in accordance with the requirements of international law.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:41 pm

Scorpius wrote:
1. Soviet citizens were against the division of the country. Their opinion was ignored. Do you condemn the illegal division of the USSR?
2. Republic, declaring independence from the Soviet Union, did it the illegal way, violating the USSR Constitution. You condemn the illegal secession of these republics from the Soviet Union?
3. I was not the first time you have to personally go to the Crimea to make sure the fact the people of Crimea supports joining Russia. You can shout anything you want - the opinion of third parties is not taken into account. The residents of Crimea wanted to exercise their right of self-determination - they took it. Someone's attitude towards this fact nor for the inhabitants of Crimea, nor to citizens of Russia no longer has the value. The procedure was carried out in accordance with the requirements of international law.3. I was not the first time you have to personally go to the Crimea to make sure the fact the people of Crimea supports joining Russia. You can shout anything you want - the opinion of third parties is not taken into account. The residents of Crimea wanted to exercise their right of self-determination - they took it. Someone's attitude towards this fact nor for the inhabitants of Crimea, nor to citizens of Russia no longer has the value. The procedure was carried out in accordance with the requirements of international law.


1./2. How do you know this? Soviet Union was never a democracy. The USSR wasn't divided, the USSR was dissolved, so technically no secession ever took place.
3. Again, how do you know this? And, factually wrong, Russian soldiers where doing hybrid warfare there. So no again, it was certainly not in compliance with international law.

So if there is a free referendum in accordance with international law, I have no problem, nobody will, self-determination indeed. But now Russia is the bad guy for illegally taken territory. But then again, I am not an international lawyer, so if you can convince me otherwise that it was in accordance with international law.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1538
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:44 pm

Mir wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Seriously, I already wrote that no European NATO country, as the NATO contingent in Europe are not able to seriously resist the attack of Russian troops in case of war, that is, even hypothetically, NATO is unable to protect any of the members of the Alliance of States, and especially the Baltic States.


Thank you for explaining perfectly why NATO is still necessary. If Russia goes after the Baltics, it will find itself at war with not just one European NATO country, but the combined power of the US, UK, France, Germany, Canada and all the other NATO countries. Russia will not win that fight. But, of course, if Russia doesn't got after the Baltics, then the fight never has to happen and we can all go on living our lives in peace.


So it's a no win situation then? As long as NATO is expanding Russia has the full moral right to target these new members.

You and others say that the Baltics and other places joined NATO after leaving the Warsaw pact because of the threat from Russia. What threat was that exactly? There was no threat and now the reason that Russia is pushing it's military interests is in response to this. Not the other way around.

You guys had your chance to be friends with Russia in the 90's and early 2000's. You blew it. Miserably.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
Posts: 1538
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:57 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Care to be objective and give some examples? My Lithuanian cousin (not a drop of Russian in him) graduated in Copenhagen, where if you ain't Danish, you ain't got a chance. Dude works in Vilnius, making 1200 Euros, where that is considered "the shit" (big money), and is asking me for help on how to get Russian Citizenship so he can move here. Do to want to give me a list of the benefits Lithuania recieved from switching opressors?


I have to call bullshit on this one too. Giving up your home turf is always difficult. I know very well what I'm talking about, I've done that. There absolutely no guarantee he won't experience the same problem in Russia.
And btw, are you still flying the mighty 204 or did your airline already switched to that nasty western A320 just as Aeroflot did?


Unfortunately the 204 was there at the wrong time. Great plane though.

So no, not flying Tu-204 right now, but we are eagerly waiting for the MS-21 that will replace "that nasty western A320".
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5651
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:02 pm

tu204 wrote:
You and others say that the Baltics and other places joined NATO after leaving the Warsaw pact because of the threat from Russia. What threat was that exactly?

Threat of invading again the same places you were kicked out post 1989. Are you that dense or just brainwashed?
 
tu204
Posts: 1538
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:08 pm

Mir wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

No, we are not forgetting anything. People in that “part of Ukraine” made their choice to get out of Ukraine and join Russia. That’s what seems to be forgotten, if anything.


The referendum was held under Russian military occupation with no option to remain part of Ukraine. The referendum was not legal per Ukraine's constitution because the whole country needed to be able to vote. That's annexation. Russia should never have been there.


Funny ain't it. Crimeans, who wanted nothing to do with Ukraine needed Ukraine's approval to leave.

Their refferendum can be illegal by Zimbabwe's, Congo's or anyone else's constitution. They don't care.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:39 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
tu204 wrote:
You and others say that the Baltics and other places joined NATO after leaving the Warsaw pact because of the threat from Russia. What threat was that exactly?

Threat of invading again the same places you were kicked out post 1989. Are you that dense or just brainwashed?


Well we have seen what happened in Georgia and now Ukraine, so the fear wasn't totally without grounds.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:41 pm

tu204 wrote:
Mir wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

No, we are not forgetting anything. People in that “part of Ukraine” made their choice to get out of Ukraine and join Russia. That’s what seems to be forgotten, if anything.


The referendum was held under Russian military occupation with no option to remain part of Ukraine. The referendum was not legal per Ukraine's constitution because the whole country needed to be able to vote. That's annexation. Russia should never have been there.


Funny ain't it. Crimeans, who wanted nothing to do with Ukraine needed Ukraine's approval to leave.

Their refferendum can be illegal by Zimbabwe's, Congo's or anyone else's constitution. They don't care.


When it suits you, you take the Crimeans as a group and don't look at the diversity of the people who live in Crimea. We never will know what the Crimeans actually wanted, because of the annexation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:44 pm

tu204 wrote:
So it's a no win situation then? As long as NATO is expanding Russia has the full moral right to target these new members.

You and others say that the Baltics and other places joined NATO after leaving the Warsaw pact because of the threat from Russia. What threat was that exactly? There was no threat and now the reason that Russia is pushing it's military interests is in response to this. Not the other way around.

You guys had your chance to be friends with Russia in the 90's and early 2000's. You blew it. Miserably.


You are truly a win-loose thinker, not in win-win.

If two countries become "friends", it needs to come both ways. Just look at how Scorpius is reacting to just about everything, if he represents the norm in Russia, then I can tell you that westerners think a lot more positive about Russia then the other way around.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 4663
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Well we have seen what happened in Georgia and now Ukraine, so the fear wasn't totally without grounds.


Limited understanding quite often leads to wrong assessment.

Strife in Georgia was fashioned by US educated lawyer and then president Mikheil Saakashvili.
( amusing that the Russian forces took some black "Georgians" POW.)

Same guy now is busy in Ukraine.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well we have seen what happened in Georgia and now Ukraine, so the fear wasn't totally without grounds.


Limited understanding quite often leads to wrong assessment.

Strife in Georgia was fashioned by US educated lawyer and then president Mikheil Saakashvili.
( amusing that the Russian forces took some black "Georgians" POW.)

Same guy now is busy in Ukraine.


Shifting blame. Why was Russia there in the first place to take some Georgians POW?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 4663
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well we have seen what happened in Georgia and now Ukraine, so the fear wasn't totally without grounds.


Limited understanding quite often leads to wrong assessment.

Strife in Georgia was fashioned by US educated lawyer and then president Mikheil Saakashvili.
( amusing that the Russian forces took some black "Georgians" POW.)

Same guy now is busy in Ukraine.


Shifting blame. Why was Russia there in the first place to take some Georgians POW?


To protect under treaty as peace corp the Russian minority in the region.
They actually did protect. Contrast with some Dutch UNPROFOR forces looking to the other side
while Bosnian Serb soldiers engaged in extrajudicial executions ...
Murphy is an optimist
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
1. Soviet citizens were against the division of the country. Their opinion was ignored. Do you condemn the illegal division of the USSR?
2. Republic, declaring independence from the Soviet Union, did it the illegal way, violating the USSR Constitution. You condemn the illegal secession of these republics from the Soviet Union?
3. I was not the first time you have to personally go to the Crimea to make sure the fact the people of Crimea supports joining Russia. You can shout anything you want - the opinion of third parties is not taken into account. The residents of Crimea wanted to exercise their right of self-determination - they took it. Someone's attitude towards this fact nor for the inhabitants of Crimea, nor to citizens of Russia no longer has the value. The procedure was carried out in accordance with the requirements of international law.3. I was not the first time you have to personally go to the Crimea to make sure the fact the people of Crimea supports joining Russia. You can shout anything you want - the opinion of third parties is not taken into account. The residents of Crimea wanted to exercise their right of self-determination - they took it. Someone's attitude towards this fact nor for the inhabitants of Crimea, nor to citizens of Russia no longer has the value. The procedure was carried out in accordance with the requirements of international law.


1./2. How do you know this? Soviet Union was never a democracy. The USSR wasn't divided, the USSR was dissolved, so technically no secession ever took place.
3. Again, how do you know this? And, factually wrong, Russian soldiers where doing hybrid warfare there. So no again, it was certainly not in compliance with international law.

So if there is a free referendum in accordance with international law, I have no problem, nobody will, self-determination indeed. But now Russia is the bad guy for illegally taken territory. But then again, I am not an international lawyer, so if you can convince me otherwise that it was in accordance with international law.


1./2. How do you know this? Soviet Union was never a democracy. The USSR wasn't divided, the USSR was dissolved, so technically no secession ever took place.

Learn the history. I've already mentioned the referendum on preserving the Soviet Union, this information is enough to begin to learn about the situation. According to the survey 2016 conducted by the "Levada-center", 68% of the population of Russia want a return of the Soviet Union and socialism.

I repeat - the exit of republics from the USSR was illegal, as contrary to the Constitution of the USSR

Speaking of the USSR Constitution, here is article 2:
"All power in the USSR belongs to the people.
The people exercise state power through Soviets of people's deputies, which constitute the political Foundation of the USSR.
All other state bodies subordinated and accountable to, the Soviets of people's deputies.
"
...
Article 5. The most important questions of state life are submitted to nationwide discussion and put to a popular vote (referendum).
...
Article 9. The main direction of development of the political system of Soviet society is the further development of socialist democracy: more participation of citizens in managing the Affairs of the state and society, improvement of the state apparatus, increased activity of public organizations, strengthening of public control, strengthening the legal foundations of state and public life, greater openness, a permanent record of public opinion.

that is not democracy?

The actions of Ukraine at the exit from the USSR directly contradict existing law], namely, article 3:
http://docs.cntd.ru/document/902002993
Article 3. In case the Soviet Republic has in its Autonomous republics, Autonomous oblasts and Autonomous regions, the referendum is conducted separately for each autonomy. For the peoples of Autonomous republics and Autonomous entities retain the right to decide independently the question of staying in the USSR or in the seceding Republic, as well as the question of its state-legal status.

In the Federal Republic, on whose territory there are places of compact residence of national groups that make up the majority of the population in a given area, in determining the outcome of the referendum voting results for these localities are recorded separately.


In addition, Sevastopol was in 1948 declared a separate territorial unit - the city of Republican submission, therefore, was not transferred to Ukraine in 1954. The decree of 1948 was never cancelled, that is, at the time of an exit of Ukraine from the Soviet Union, Sevastopol remained a territory, subordinate to the RSFSR, that is, legally Sevastopol was never the territory of Ukraine, and left Russia, and this issue was raised in 1992.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:19 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Limited understanding quite often leads to wrong assessment.

Strife in Georgia was fashioned by US educated lawyer and then president Mikheil Saakashvili.
( amusing that the Russian forces took some black "Georgians" POW.)

Same guy now is busy in Ukraine.


Shifting blame. Why was Russia there in the first place to take some Georgians POW?


To protect under treaty as peace corp the Russian minority in the region.
They actually did protect. Contrast with some Dutch UNPROFOR forces looking to the other side
while Bosnian Serb soldiers engaged in extrajudicial executions ...


Do you truly want to go there. Shame on you to make that comparisment.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:43 pm

Scorpius wrote:
that is not democracy?.


You are truly the first one I encountered who actually called the USSR a democracy. The word "democracy" in a country name usually is quite a hint that it is not a democracy. :white:

If I take one thing with me, after this exchange with you, that you have changed my view of Russians for the worse. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person, so I fail to believe that most Russians actually share your negative views.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5651
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:27 pm

that is not democracy?


Of course not. As you have highlighted yourself, it's SOCIALIST democracy. Same with real steak vs. vegetarian steak. On paper veggie steak looks almost like the real thing. Only on paper.
Independent courts?
Checks and balances between branches of government?
Free competition of parties?
Free elections?
Civilian control of the military?
so on and so forth
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:48 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
that is not democracy?


Of course not. As you have highlighted yourself, it's SOCIALIST democracy. Same with real steak vs. vegetarian steak. On paper veggie steak looks almost like the real thing. Only on paper.
Independent courts?
Checks and balances between branches of government?
Free competition of parties?
Free elections?
Civilian control of the military?
so on and so forth


:checkmark: Voting is the end result, not the beginning of a free democratic society.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 4663
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Do you truly want to go there. Shame on you to make that comparisment.


you went there.
I shamed you.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:11 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Do you truly want to go there. Shame on you to make that comparisment.


you went there.
I shamed you.


what ever...
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:38 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
that is not democracy?


Of course not. As you have highlighted yourself, it's SOCIALIST democracy. Same with real steak vs. vegetarian steak. On paper veggie steak looks almost like the real thing. Only on paper.
Independent courts?
Checks and balances between branches of government?
Free competition of parties?
Free elections?
Civilian control of the military?
so on and so forth

All these things do not exist in Western countries.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:46 pm

Scorpius wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
that is not democracy?


Of course not. As you have highlighted yourself, it's SOCIALIST democracy. Same with real steak vs. vegetarian steak. On paper veggie steak looks almost like the real thing. Only on paper.
Independent courts?
Checks and balances between branches of government?
Free competition of parties?
Free elections?
Civilian control of the military?
so on and so forth

All these things do not exist in Western countries.


Care to back that up? The Netherlands is a western country, so please feel free to take that as an example.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5651
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:50 pm

Of course, who else would know better than you. :crazy:
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:53 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
that is not democracy?.


You are truly the first one I encountered who actually called the USSR a democracy. The word "democracy" in a country name usually is quite a hint that it is not a democracy. :white:

If I take one thing with me, after this exchange with you, that you have changed my view of Russians for the worse. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person, so I fail to believe that most Russians actually share your negative views.


You behave like a spoiled child who is given sweets.Once you find that my opinion on political issues different from your (what I immediately warned, more than once), you were throwing tantrums, and tell how you don't love me.
Do you seriously think that I have some care how you treat me?
In Russia there is a saying: "I'm not a gold Ducat to please everyone".
Regardless of your opinions, whether you love or hate the Russian, the Russian was, is and will be their own national interests.
Politics is the art of compromise. You obviously can't find a compromise between your propaganda clouded the Outlook and the information that does not fit your usual views.
Until then, until you realize these obvious facts, we will not work with you dialogue. However, I am a man of stubborn and patient - I'll wait until you finally begin to think with your head, not to shout propaganda slogans.
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
that is not democracy?.


You are truly the first one I encountered who actually called the USSR a democracy. The word "democracy" in a country name usually is quite a hint that it is not a democracy. :white:

If I take one thing with me, after this exchange with you, that you have changed my view of Russians for the worse. I don't know if that was your intention or not, but I can see nothing positive about this exchange, however, I am a positive person, so I fail to believe that most Russians actually share your negative views.


You behave like a spoiled child who is given sweets.Once you find that my opinion on political issues different from your (what I immediately warned, more than once), you were throwing tantrums, and tell how you don't love me.
Do you seriously think that I have some care how you treat me?
In Russia there is a saying: "I'm not a gold Ducat to please everyone".
Regardless of your opinions, whether you love or hate the Russian, the Russian was, is and will be their own national interests.
Politics is the art of compromise. You obviously can't find a compromise between your propaganda clouded the Outlook and the information that does not fit your usual views.
Until then, until you realize these obvious facts, we will not work with you dialogue. However, I am a man of stubborn and patient - I'll wait until you finally begin to think with your head, not to shout propaganda slogans.


Let me ask you, do you have any critizm on the current Russian policies? Could you give me 3 examples?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
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