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Scorpius
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From Russia with truth

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:17 pm

Hi all. I'm from Russia and I'm ready to answer your questions. Let's have a little chat. If you are interested, of course. Immediately apologize for the terrible English - I use translator Google.
Briefly about myself: born in the USSR, in the city of Severodvinsk, a city in the North of the European part of Russia, there still produce nuclear submarines. From 2006 to 2011, 5 years I worked at an aircraft factory, which produces IL-96, An-148. Have technician diploma in the specialty "Technology of mechanical engineering".
If anyone is interested to learn about Russia first hand, and not from the media - ask questions, I will try to answer them. Can also help with search of the necessary information in Russian sources, tell us a little about the history of our country, about the places interesting to visit.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:33 pm

I welcome your opening into a fascinating country. Благодарю вас

`The fall of the Iron curtain was for me a turning point and happened when I was really started to get interesting in the world, age 12. How did you experience that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I welcome your opening into a fascinating country. Благодарю вас

`The fall of the Iron curtain was for me a turning point and happened when I was really started to get interesting in the world, age 12. How did you experience that.


For us, this period known as "Perestroika" and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union. In General, the peoples inhabiting the country, it was a tragedy. The ensuing events and crises led to the fact that only Russia is estimated lost due to the deterioration of the living conditions of 15 million people. This increased crime rate, high unemployment, greatly increased the mortality rate and the birth rate has fallen. As such, the fall of the Iron curtain was overshadowed by the horrors with which it was accompanied. The withdrawal of Soviet troops from Germany in the West were seen only in a positive way, for example. But no one in the West was not interested in that output units of the Soviet army were withdrawn to nowhere - no infrastructure, where it would be possible to place them. Often people were just thrown in the box, in temporary barracks, among the rusting machinery. The mass theft in the army. Because of high inflation in 1992-1996 monthly salary of the military literally enough to buy several packs of cigarettes.
And this situation continued until 1999-2000. I still remember how in the village in 1998, the salary of a welder was 200 rubles a month. The exchange rate is about $ 35.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I welcome your opening into a fascinating country. Благодарю вас

`The fall of the Iron curtain was for me a turning point and happened when I was really started to get interesting in the world, age 12. How did you experience that.

If we talk directly about the fall of the Iron Curtain - this is 1993, then that year Russian tanks in Moscow shot the House of Soviets (this is the Russian analogue of the American Congress)
Image
Then a civil war could begin in Russia, but the opposition (those who refused to recognize the usurpation of power by Yeltsin and the transition to capitalism in fact) were crushed by tanks - about 500 people were killed in two days on October 3-4, 1993, and another 1,000 were wounded. No one knows the exact number - people were shot right at the stadium behind the House of Soviets, including even random passers-by.

If to speak about my personal experience - until 1992, my mother took the two children - me and my sister, and we flew by plane from Arkhangelsk to Kiev, and from there traveled to Zhitomir, our relatives, where the rest couple of weeks from a bad Northern climate. In 1992, I remember my mother told me that the last time we could afford to fly to visit relatives - began to have problems with the salary, and Ukraine has become another state. Since then, I've never personally met any of my relatives, who remained on the territory of Ukraine for 25 have passed since then. Previously, there was no money to go - and now I go there simply dangerous: I'm Russian, and to me there can do anything. For example, put in jail, because I allow myself to state that Russian and Ukrainians are one people, and Russia and Ukraine - the two parts of the same country.
Besides the majority of relatives had already died. The maximum that I can - it's to bring flowers to the grave of the people who coddled me.
 
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bgm
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:58 pm

Interesting post, thank you for sharing your experiences. Always nice to learn new things from different perspectives.

I have a question: as a Russian, what is your perspective on the alleged Russian interference in the US election last year?
"When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat." -George Carlin
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:20 pm

Fall of the Iron curtain is most predominately in 1989, the fall of the Berlin wall and the opening of the Iron Curtain. I also remember 1992 well, and how Jeltsin climbed the tanks and how Gorbatov became a President of nothing because the Soviet Union seized to exist.

I wonder how you in the Soviet Union heard about the fall of the Berlin Wall, was it announced on Soviet television? Radio? Newspaper? Did you hear it first via via?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:17 pm

[quote="bgm"]Interesting post, thank you for sharing your experiences. Always nice to learn new things from different perspectives.

To start I would like to remind you that the US is trying to intervene in every election in Russia, but for some reason this one doesn't bother. As for the intervention of Russian hackers in the us elections, that is, to be honest, we are here it seems just nonsense. It is unclear what Russia has achieved with this intervention - in fact, everyone understands that the choice between trump and Clinton is a choice between bad and worst. In fact, regardless of who sits in the oval office, the vector of US policy towards Russia remains approximately the same, and he always aimed at confrontation.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Fall of the Iron curtain is most predominately in 1989, the fall of the Berlin wall and the opening of the Iron Curtain. I also remember 1992 well, and how Jeltsin climbed the tanks and how Gorbatov became a President of nothing because the Soviet Union seized to exist.

I wonder how you in the Soviet Union heard about the fall of the Berlin Wall, was it announced on Soviet television? Radio? Newspaper? Did you hear it first via via?

In any case it was not good news at the time. Rather, we can say the fall of the Berlin wall passed unnoticed against the backdrop of the internal crisis in the USSR. I remember a report about the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan, but I don't remember a single comment about the fall of the Berlin wall. However, I was still very young, so I remember that year I am very fragmentarily. But I can conduct a survey among their friends are older.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:23 am

Scorpius wrote:
Hi all. I'm from Russia and I'm ready to answer your questions. Let's have a little chat. If you are interested, of course. Immediately apologize for the terrible English - I use translator Google.
Briefly about myself: born in the USSR, in the city of Severodvinsk, a city in the North of the European part of Russia, there still produce nuclear submarines. From 2006 to 2011, 5 years I worked at an aircraft factory, which produces IL-96, An-148. Have technician diploma in the specialty "Technology of mechanical engineering".
If anyone is interested to learn about Russia first hand, and not from the media - ask questions, I will try to answer them. Can also help with search of the necessary information in Russian sources, tell us a little about the history of our country, about the places interesting to visit.


I want to visit Russia again next year for my next project. Will be in touch. Hope to catch a ride in an An-2 again, this time with a film camera. Are those still flying in Siberia?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:27 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Hi all. I'm from Russia and I'm ready to answer your questions. Let's have a little chat. If you are interested, of course. Immediately apologize for the terrible English - I use translator Google.
Briefly about myself: born in the USSR, in the city of Severodvinsk, a city in the North of the European part of Russia, there still produce nuclear submarines. From 2006 to 2011, 5 years I worked at an aircraft factory, which produces IL-96, An-148. Have technician diploma in the specialty "Technology of mechanical engineering".
If anyone is interested to learn about Russia first hand, and not from the media - ask questions, I will try to answer them. Can also help with search of the necessary information in Russian sources, tell us a little about the history of our country, about the places interesting to visit.


Most likely somewhere you will find working An-2, but it should far. By the way, autumn was supposed to start experimental operation on passenger lines ТВС-2ДТС, which is (hopefully) a replacement for the An-2.
Image
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:54 pm

Scorpius wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Hi all. I'm from Russia and I'm ready to answer your questions. Let's have a little chat. If you are interested, of course. Immediately apologize for the terrible English - I use translator Google.
Briefly about myself: born in the USSR, in the city of Severodvinsk, a city in the North of the European part of Russia, there still produce nuclear submarines. From 2006 to 2011, 5 years I worked at an aircraft factory, which produces IL-96, An-148. Have technician diploma in the specialty "Technology of mechanical engineering".
If anyone is interested to learn about Russia first hand, and not from the media - ask questions, I will try to answer them. Can also help with search of the necessary information in Russian sources, tell us a little about the history of our country, about the places interesting to visit.


Most likely somewhere you will find working An-2, but it should far. By the way, autumn was supposed to start experimental operation on passenger lines ТВС-2ДТС, which is (hopefully) a replacement for the An-2.
Image


They did a very nice job in updating the An-2. Hope this one will be a success. A very good plane for rugged terrain.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:56 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Fall of the Iron curtain is most predominately in 1989, the fall of the Berlin wall and the opening of the Iron Curtain. I also remember 1992 well, and how Jeltsin climbed the tanks and how Gorbatov became a President of nothing because the Soviet Union seized to exist.

I wonder how you in the Soviet Union heard about the fall of the Berlin Wall, was it announced on Soviet television? Radio? Newspaper? Did you hear it first via via?

In any case it was not good news at the time. Rather, we can say the fall of the Berlin wall passed unnoticed against the backdrop of the internal crisis in the USSR. I remember a report about the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan, but I don't remember a single comment about the fall of the Berlin wall. However, I was still very young, so I remember that year I am very fragmentarily. But I can conduct a survey among their friends are older.


I would like to hear from your friends how they experienced that, 1989 - 1991. I vividly remember this. It was a time of hope in the west, everything seemed to be possible. Another one is Chernobyl, were ordinary Russians informed about this, eventually?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Fall of the Iron curtain is most predominately in 1989, the fall of the Berlin wall and the opening of the Iron Curtain. I also remember 1992 well, and how Jeltsin climbed the tanks and how Gorbatov became a President of nothing because the Soviet Union seized to exist.

I wonder how you in the Soviet Union heard about the fall of the Berlin Wall, was it announced on Soviet television? Radio? Newspaper? Did you hear it first via via?

In any case it was not good news at the time. Rather, we can say the fall of the Berlin wall passed unnoticed against the backdrop of the internal crisis in the USSR. I remember a report about the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan, but I don't remember a single comment about the fall of the Berlin wall. However, I was still very young, so I remember that year I am very fragmentarily. But I can conduct a survey among their friends are older.

I'll ask around my friends about their vision of 1989-1991.
I would like to hear from your friends how they experienced that, 1989 - 1991. I vividly remember this. It was a time of hope in the west, everything seemed to be possible. Another one is Chernobyl, were ordinary Russians informed about this, eventually?

About Chernobyl was notified, really late in a few days, and participation in liquidation of consequences took tens of thousands of volunteers. It was very much affected by radiation contamination. Chernobyl was spent almost everything available at the time of rescue robots.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:04 pm

Growing up in the USSR, was it possible/easy for the people to travel, international or domestic? How much exposure did you guys have to western media/culture? How did the Soviet people perceive the USA and the NATO countries? Were the people kept up to date on relations within the Soviet Bloc/sphere of influence including USSR/North Korea relations?

I learned Russian in college and it is a fascinating language and culture! Everyone I know questioned why I did it and at the time I wanted to work for the State Department at a diplomatic mission there in addition to loving Russian (especially 20th century; mostly stemming from my dad being in the USAF at the time) history and the language.
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:18 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Growing up in the USSR, was it possible/easy for the people to travel, international or domestic? How much exposure did you guys have to western media/culture? How did the Soviet people perceive the USA and the NATO countries? Were the people kept up to date on relations within the Soviet Bloc/sphere of influence including USSR/North Korea relations?

I learned Russian in college and it is a fascinating language and culture! Everyone I know questioned why I did it and at the time I wanted to work for the State Department at a diplomatic mission there in addition to loving Russian (especially 20th century; mostly stemming from my dad being in the USAF at the time) history and the language.


All the CIS countries and Eastern Europe to travel easily, sometimes you can't even immediately notice that you're in another country got. For example, with Belarus have no border controls when I from Moscow went to Minsk two years ago, I never even had to get out of the backpack my documents. Whatever the politicians say - the USSR and the Russian Empire still exist, it is impossible for people who lived in one country for several centuries, suddenly become different people. Although, of course, the Western countries with the support of local elites is a policy of separation of the peoples of Russia and adjacent countries. This is done persistently, methodically, for decades. The scheme is the same everywhere - are nationalist organizations that are strongly sponsored, from their environment or from criminal gangs looking for politicians who are willing to follow the desired course, after which the country organized a coup, actively supported by the Western media.There it served as a victory of democracy, although in reality it is only the establishment of the puppet regime. In the future we can only say "blame the Russians", and to support anti-Russian policy in the region. So it was in the Baltic States, in Poland and Czechoslovakia, so it was in Georgia, Azerbaijan, and now Ukraine.
Imagine a similar action on the part of Russia. For example, in Canada, came to power Pro-Russian government, which asks to place in Canada Russian military base and wants to enter into a military Alliance with Russia. Then so does Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Colombia, Argentina, Brazil. What do you think, what would be the reaction of U.S. military bases and rocket launchers Russia in these countries?
Here we come to the second your question. How Russians perceive the West. The majority of the population perceives Western countries as enemies, a sort of collective of Hitler, which will have to fight if not now, then in the coming decades.
Why? Because the actions of Western policy towards Russia is certainly hostile, and this line has changed since the end of the Cold war.
The USSR is long gone, but the policy of sanctions and the embargo continues. We removed its troops from Eastern Europe, hell, we even withdrew troops from everywhere where they were. And what we got in return? NATO, an organization that was created to war with us, now practically on our doorstep. Hey, we dissolved the Warsaw Pact, why not do the same with NATO? At the beginning of the two thousandth Putin had a conversation with the US President Clinton that Russia also joined NATO, if the West declares that NATO is not directed against Russia. But our proposal was rejected. Why?
These and many other things, such as the behavior of Western companies that appeared in the nineties in Russia, and did not comply with our laws, give reasonable grounds for mistrust.
Now this story with the suspension of our athletes from the Olympics - it's idiotic. To take the same Meldonium - our athletes disqualified for what Meldonium was present in their samples, which were surrendered when Meldonium was still allowed by the drug. At the same time, we see how does not apply any disciplinary measures to the American athletes taking drugs. That Norwegian athletes who allegedly asthmatics (haha, I myself am asthmatic, I know that with this disease in the winter and kilometer not to run, not to mention the Olympic games to speak) - they also raise no issue. And when American runners were allowed to re-run a relay race - it's all that was? Why not start the Olympics immediately with the distribution of gold medals of team USA and their satellites?
That may seem strange and may be naive, but Russian culture is built largely on the sense of justice. If you act unjustly, you will never be trusted. You will never be friends. You do not help no money, no regard for men you will simply cease to be a full member of society. Precisely for this reason - aggression towards Russia, and injustice in actions that alienate the population of our country from Western countries. However, we understand that in General Western politicians - it's not all the peoples of the West, and ordinary citizens have nothing to share with ordinary citizens of the US or UK, or somewhere else.

Therefore, the opinion of Russians about how to conduct policy towards the West, can be described with this little episode of the famous in Russia and Russian-speaking countries Comedy about the army:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1TOP2-wLhk

The scene on duty in control of nuclear missiles:
- Here, guys, our Motherland dictates its indomitable will to the rest of the world community.
- Maybe start them?
- Will definitely do it. And more than once. Whole world in ashes. But we'll do that in a long time.


That is, we don't want to fight but if we must, we will erase in a powder the whole world. Because we are russian, we have a thousand years protecting their land from invaders.

We are a unique country, this was not before us, and will not be after us. We are small, only 1.5% of the population of the planet, but we occupy almost 15% of the land area. Our country is more of Pluto in size, and are largely undeveloped due to poor conditions, including climate, but we're dreaming of exploring other planets and flying to the stars. More than anything, we value peace - but almost continually at war. That's what feels most russians, how they think, how he evaluates the world around them.

Sorry for such a large amount of text that you might think "propaganda." But I'm just telling my point of view on that question you asked me. This question is not to answer one or two short sentences.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:41 pm

I hoped that we could have steered away from current politics. TWA772LR asked about the USSR era, not our times. Don't think I will rebottle all your points, I will just say, thank you for sharing your point of view and I don't understand how you could reach such a conclusion and I mostly disagree with it.

Let me just tell you this, no one in the west is thinking about attacking Russia in any way, no reason for it, no gains to be made.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:34 am

Scorpius wrote:


Excellent writeup @Scorpius! Very interesting perspective from the other side!

My last trip there was very memorable indeed - though my boys were frozen for most of it! :P Many pleasant memories of cycling through Russia. The funniest is when a bunch of drunk Russian pilots in the lounge in Novobrisk starting singing Mithun Chakraborty songs offkey when they saw an Indian group in the airport! :) I REALLY hope those pilots werent going to operate flights after that!

I hope Russia makes it easier for tourists to travel though. They will make serious income from tourism. Not sure about other nationalities, but with an Indian passport I needed separate "invites" from local friends in Moscow and Siberia for the 2 segments of my month long trip. Too cumbersome! This was 2006. I hope things have changed now.

Unfortunately politics has ruined relations between us. I hope we see the disbanding of NATO in our lifetimes - it continues to exist as a tumor poisoning relations on the european continent and preventing closure on critical issues.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:45 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Unfortunately politics has ruined relations between us. I hope we see the disbanding of NATO in our lifetimes - it continues to exist as a tumor poisoning relations on the european continent and preventing closure on critical issues.

NATO (or its successor) will disappear when Russia converts its swords into plowshares.

Crimea and Ukraine tell us that is not happening.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:52 am

BobPatterson wrote:
NATO (or its successor) will disappear when Russia converts its swords into plowshares.

Crimea and Ukraine tell us that is not happening.


And Russians will convert their swords into plowshares when the US does the same! So how about all of them sit together on a table and discuss how they can do just that.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:02 am

BawliBooch wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
NATO (or its successor) will disappear when Russia converts its swords into plowshares.

Crimea and Ukraine tell us that is not happening.


And Russians will convert their swords into plowshares when the US does the same! So how about all of them sit together on a table and discuss how they can do just that.

Russia can negotiate disarmament with its neighbors without regard to the United States.

The USA has no territorial designs on Russia, or on anyone else.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:21 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Hi all. I'm from Russia and I'm ready to answer your questions. Let's have a little chat. If you are interested, of course. Immediately apologize for the terrible English - I use translator Google.
Briefly about myself: born in the USSR, in the city of Severodvinsk, a city in the North of the European part of Russia, there still produce nuclear submarines. From 2006 to 2011, 5 years I worked at an aircraft factory, which produces IL-96, An-148. Have technician diploma in the specialty "Technology of mechanical engineering".
If anyone is interested to learn about Russia first hand, and not from the media - ask questions, I will try to answer them. Can also help with search of the necessary information in Russian sources, tell us a little about the history of our country, about the places interesting to visit.


I want to visit Russia again next year for my next project. Will be in touch. Hope to catch a ride in an An-2 again, this time with a film camera. Are those still flying in Siberia?


Plenty of them fly crop dusting flights all over Russia. Absolutely no promblem getting you a ride in one or even spending a day or two in the field with a crew. If interested, PM me.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
JJJ
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:42 am

tu204 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Hi all. I'm from Russia and I'm ready to answer your questions. Let's have a little chat. If you are interested, of course. Immediately apologize for the terrible English - I use translator Google.
Briefly about myself: born in the USSR, in the city of Severodvinsk, a city in the North of the European part of Russia, there still produce nuclear submarines. From 2006 to 2011, 5 years I worked at an aircraft factory, which produces IL-96, An-148. Have technician diploma in the specialty "Technology of mechanical engineering".
If anyone is interested to learn about Russia first hand, and not from the media - ask questions, I will try to answer them. Can also help with search of the necessary information in Russian sources, tell us a little about the history of our country, about the places interesting to visit.


I want to visit Russia again next year for my next project. Will be in touch. Hope to catch a ride in an An-2 again, this time with a film camera. Are those still flying in Siberia?


Plenty of them fly crop dusting flights all over Russia. Absolutely no promblem getting you a ride in one or even spending a day or two in the field with a crew. If interested, PM me.


I can vouch for that, I hopped on a couple of them (it helps that I work with agrochemicals so my Russian customers can arrange that for me).

I still need to find the time to spend a week around the Baikal, though.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:11 am

That would be cool to have a hop on a Russian plane. I flew Aeroflot once, it supposed to be a Tu154, but instead, it was a boring A321. It was a nice flight though, but much less memorable than it could have been. I actually had to convince a friend, with whom I was traveling, that it would have been a save trip.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:16 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I welcome your opening into a fascinating country. Благодарю вас

`The fall of the Iron curtain was for me a turning point and happened when I was really started to get interesting in the world, age 12. How did you experience that.

If we talk directly about the fall of the Iron Curtain - this is 1993, then that year Russian tanks in Moscow shot the House of Soviets (this is the Russian analogue of the American Congress)
Image
Then a civil war could begin in Russia, but the opposition (those who refused to recognize the usurpation of power by Yeltsin and the transition to capitalism in fact) were crushed by tanks - about 500 people were killed in two days on October 3-4, 1993, and another 1,000 were wounded. No one knows the exact number - people were shot right at the stadium behind the House of Soviets, including even random passers-by.

If to speak about my personal experience - until 1992, my mother took the two children - me and my sister, and we flew by plane from Arkhangelsk to Kiev, and from there traveled to Zhitomir, our relatives, where the rest couple of weeks from a bad Northern climate. In 1992, I remember my mother told me that the last time we could afford to fly to visit relatives - began to have problems with the salary, and Ukraine has become another state. Since then, I've never personally met any of my relatives, who remained on the territory of Ukraine for 25 have passed since then. Previously, there was no money to go - and now I go there simply dangerous: I'm Russian, and to me there can do anything. For example, put in jail, because I allow myself to state that Russian and Ukrainians are one people, and Russia and Ukraine - the two parts of the same country.
Besides the majority of relatives had already died. The maximum that I can - it's to bring flowers to the grave of the people who coddled me.


Much better pictures from those days of hope:

Image

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
That would be cool to have a hop on a Russian plane. I flew Aeroflot once, it supposed to be a Tu154, but instead, it was a boring A321.


I was lucky to start travelling to Russia back in the day when the Tu-154 was the fancy stuff and most jumps were on the glass-nose 134 or Yak-42. Even the Il-86 on the odd high-capacity flight.

Once landing in LED on a Pulkovo Tu-134 the aircraft overrun the runway and instead of waiting for a tug the pilot just applied power for a while (with all manners of mud and dirt being ingested by the engine) until the plane was back on the runway. Some technician gave a look and quickly OK'ed the whole thing and we just taxied down the terminal like nothing happened.

Those were the days.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:55 am

BobPatterson wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Unfortunately politics has ruined relations between us. I hope we see the disbanding of NATO in our lifetimes - it continues to exist as a tumor poisoning relations on the european continent and preventing closure on critical issues.

NATO (or its successor) will disappear when Russia converts its swords into plowshares.

Crimea and Ukraine tell us that is not happening.


Сompare the territory of the Russian Empire, USSR and modern Russia. Western countries are sponsoring the separatists who support them politically is not the first hundred years. Ukraine is separatists, who seceded from Russia in 1918. To the state "Ukraine" did not exist. The second time Ukraine separated from the USSR, and ignoring the results of the referendum by which the majority of the Soviet population was in favor of keeping it. Crimea never even was Ukrainian territory, Ukraine actually invaded his territory after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Did you know, for example, that the city of Sevastopol was the so-called Union discipline, as Moscow and St. Petersburg, and never was part of Ukraine? However, for some reason Ukraine announced Sevastopol as its territory, and I do not remember that someone in the West is screaming about the illegal annexation at the time. And how do we deal with Yugoslavia, which was destroyed by NATO forces?
And what about Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria? Why NATO forces are bombing Syria? They someone gave permission for this?
Russian to Syria, invited the Syrian government and who invited NATO?
If the US has no territorial claims to Russia, why would it place its military bases on its borders?

How many military conflicts unleashed NATO after 1991? More than 30? This is again the fault of Russian?

And how many civilians killed by NATO forces? Anyone considered at all? And how many people died as a result of the embargo imposed by the US on the Iran, North Korea? The number of victims is estimated in the millions, but the bad still somehow Russian. I already wrote here - the embargo and the Cold war, the Soviet Union collapsed. As a result of the collapse of the Soviet Union lost about 15 million population is the direct fault of Western countries. The repression of the Stalin suffered from 2 million to 8 million people (including the dead from 800 thousand to 2 million), and now is called Stalin a bloody tyrant. The West has killed ten times more people - but they call themselves enlightened democracy. Yes, they are much worse than Stalin - he was only restored order in the country in radical ways. So after the order he brought, and laid the Foundation of the state's development 50 years ahead.
Перевести вGoogleBingA Western country act like the Hitler - their goal is genocide, destruction, and enslavement. Only here Hitler explained his actions of racial superiority. But Western countries have decided that they have the right to impose their own rules and regulations. Although no such right was not given.A Western country act like the Hitler - their goal is genocide, destruction, and enslavement. Only here Hitler explained his actions of racial superiority. But Western countries have decided that they have the right to impose their own rules and regulations. Although no such right was not given.
Obama constantly stated that the United States was chosen by God country, which by law should govern all. Just why is that? United States - the same country as everyone else - no better and no worse than others. But USA have no right to dictate to others the rules by which they must live.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I welcome your opening into a fascinating country. Благодарю вас

`The fall of the Iron curtain was for me a turning point and happened when I was really started to get interesting in the world, age 12. How did you experience that.

If we talk directly about the fall of the Iron Curtain - this is 1993, then that year Russian tanks in Moscow shot the House of Soviets (this is the Russian analogue of the American Congress)
Image
Then a civil war could begin in Russia, but the opposition (those who refused to recognize the usurpation of power by Yeltsin and the transition to capitalism in fact) were crushed by tanks - about 500 people were killed in two days on October 3-4, 1993, and another 1,000 were wounded. No one knows the exact number - people were shot right at the stadium behind the House of Soviets, including even random passers-by.

If to speak about my personal experience - until 1992, my mother took the two children - me and my sister, and we flew by plane from Arkhangelsk to Kiev, and from there traveled to Zhitomir, our relatives, where the rest couple of weeks from a bad Northern climate. In 1992, I remember my mother told me that the last time we could afford to fly to visit relatives - began to have problems with the salary, and Ukraine has become another state. Since then, I've never personally met any of my relatives, who remained on the territory of Ukraine for 25 have passed since then. Previously, there was no money to go - and now I go there simply dangerous: I'm Russian, and to me there can do anything. For example, put in jail, because I allow myself to state that Russian and Ukrainians are one people, and Russia and Ukraine - the two parts of the same country.
Besides the majority of relatives had already died. The maximum that I can - it's to bring flowers to the grave of the people who coddled me.


Much better pictures from those days of hope:

Image

Image


People in the first photo for a few moments before this picture, he gave orders to kill their political opponents, in order to usurp power and to access the plundering of the state. Some questionable hope in these photos. For ordinary people this meant poverty and misery for the next decades. Only twenty years later, the standard of living of the population was compared with the Soviet period.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:03 pm

Scorpius wrote:
The repression of the Stalin suffered from 2 million to 8 million people (including the dead from 800 thousand to 2 million), and now is called Stalin a bloody tyrant.

Obama constantly stated that the United States was chosen by God country, which by law should govern all.

Your views on history are interesting.

It is impossible (for me, at least) to consider them "Truth from Russia".

Happy Thanksgiving.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:31 pm

Scorpius wrote:
The USSR is long gone, but the policy of sanctions and the embargo continues. We removed its troops from Eastern Europe, hell, we even withdrew troops from everywhere where they were. And what we got in return? NATO, an organization that was created to war with us, now practically on our doorstep.

Here's one reason why: To keep your troops from coming back! Besides it's none of your business how Estonia, Poland or Slovenia organize their defense. Has it ever occurred to you that historical experience with Russia in the post-WW2 era is precisely the driving factor for NATO membership in countries too close to Russia for comfort?

Scorpius wrote:
Hey, we dissolved the Warsaw Pact, why not do the same with NATO?

WarPac was dissolved against the will of the USSR.

Scorpius wrote:
That may seem strange and may be naive, but Russian culture is built largely on the sense of justice. If you act unjustly, you will never be trusted. You will never be friends.

This is nothing special and it works both ways.

Scorpius wrote:
We are a unique country, this was not before us, and will not be after us. We are small, only 1.5% of the population of the planet, but we occupy almost 15% of the land area. .

Then why is it such a problem for Russia to stay within its borders?

Scorpius wrote:
And how do we deal with Yugoslavia, which was destroyed by NATO forces?


Yugoslavia (a utilitarian product of the Versailles Treaty, just like Czechoslovakia) was destroyed by nationalism that ended into sensless violence.


Scorpius wrote:
the Soviet Union collapsed. As a result of the collapse of the Soviet Union lost about 15 million population is the direct fault of Western countries. The repression of the Stalin suffered from 2 million to 8 million people (including the dead from 800 thousand to 2 million), and now is called Stalin a bloody tyrant. The West has killed ten times more people - but they call themselves enlightened democracy. Yes, they are much worse than Stalin - he was only restored order in the country in radical ways.


Wow. Simply wow. The degree of denial and absence of any self-reflection about your own past is just amazing.
Soviet Union was a house of cards, materialization of Russian imperialism, chronically unable sustain itself. A cruel prison of nations. Any blame should be addressed to those who created it and those who kept it together, as usual in Russia, by brute force
Last edited by L410Turbolet on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Сompare the territory of the Russian Empire, USSR and modern Russia. Western countries are sponsoring the separatists who support them politically is not the first hundred years. Ukraine is separatists, who seceded from Russia in 1918. To the state "Ukraine" did not exist.


That's technically incorrect. The predecessor of Ukraine in the area was the Kievan Rus, a much older country than Russia that was eventually dismantled by it's neighbours. Secession of Ukraine from Russia was just return to status quo.

Scorpius wrote:

The second time Ukraine separated from the USSR, and ignoring the results of the referendum by which the majority of the Soviet population was in favor of keeping it.



Well, not a surprise on both ends. Except they didn't help themselves too much.

Scorpius wrote:

Crimea never even was Ukrainian territory, Ukraine actually invaded his territory after the collapse of the Soviet Union.



That is factually incorrect. Crimea was made a part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by order of Nikita Khrushchev.

Scorpius wrote:

And how do we deal with Yugoslavia, which was destroyed by NATO forces?



WTF are you talking about? The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not destroyed by NATO forces. Not by any means. It was a construct of a crazy history of the area in the first half of 20th century and had zero chance to survive after the authoritative semi-communist regime that kept it together has fallen apart. And to be honest, the locals did a great job destroying it.

But it's enough, I don't have time to pick your post apart. You named this topic "From Russia with truth", but it's more in lines with "From Russia with propaganda"

Just BTW, your answer to the question about traveling in soviet times is far from true as well. You forgot to mention the stop at the miliciya station for a travel permit if you wanted to go to another city. Not to mention that you still need visa to Schengen area, just as we need visa to travel to Russia.
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Redd
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:03 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Western countries are sponsoring the separatists


...and Russia is doing everything to destabilize the EU. The current Polish government is a good example of that, all of the nationalist and racist right wing movements across the EU are trained and funded by your government.

Scorpius, little Kremlin troll on A.net?
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:40 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
The repression of the Stalin suffered from 2 million to 8 million people (including the dead from 800 thousand to 2 million), and now is called Stalin a bloody tyrant.

Obama constantly stated that the United States was chosen by God country, which by law should govern all.

Your views on history are interesting.

It is impossible (for me, at least) to consider them "Truth from Russia".

Happy Thanksgiving.

Well, in the topic title there is a certain irony in that. Know how it "Light paladin, carrying the light of Truth." In fact, I just talk about how we see the world. Many in Russia believe that the Western people brainwashed by propaganda. After all, you there and us here learn very different views of the world and all things in it. In the U.S. few people know that the largest battle in history occurred not in the capture of Iwo Jima or at El-Alamein and at Stalingrad, where the total losses on both sides exceeded 2.5 million. I personally saw an interview where the Americans in response to the question "Who won the Second world war?" answered, that defeated the United States, England, France, and Britain, and they defeated Germany and Russia. At the same time, let me remind you that France did not provide active resistance to the Nazis, and the famous French Resistance, was no good in comparison with Belarusian partisans.
The difference between the war of Western countries with Hitler and the Russian war with Hitler, you can imagine comparing two photos:
1. Photo citizens of Paris when their city is occupied by the Nazis
Image
2. The citizens of Stalingrad when the Nazis occupied them:
Image

Recently, Hollywood made the film "Dunkirk" about heroic heroes of the allies. And now the whole world knows how heroically fought the allied forces in this operation, as it was hard for them and what a tragedy. In the operation at Dunkirk the allied forces,numbering almost 300 thousand, well-armed and having a lot of technology, chose to flee. Losses during the evacuation of several thousand people.
Does anyone at the same time, on the Vyazma defensive operation in October 1941, when it was surrounded by forces of the red army lost a million people in less than a month, fighting with the Nazi troops were three times more?
Maybe someone in the West knows about the 316th infantry division, which with the support of the light brigade and tank brigade (~50 tanks) stopped break advanced mechanized corps of army group "Center" of the Wehrmacht to Moscow?

No one even could not think that the forces of light infantry to stop the advance of the German armored corps.

Here's a short list of events 16-18 November 1941 near Moscow, the battles 316th infantry division:
1. 16 Nov 15 fighters led by the political Commissar of the 6th company, 1075 th infantry regiment P. B. Vortex near the village of Petelino destroyed 5 enemy tanks. All the men were killed, the political leader, not to be captured, shot himself;
2. November 17, 120 soldiers of the 1st infantry company Lieutenant E. E. Filimonov under the command of senior Lieutenant Baurzhan Momyshuly in the vicinity of the station Matrenino repelled the attack of a German battalion of infantry supported by 2 tanks. Then Panfilov left Matrenino, and after the Germans occupied the village, launched a counterattack and drove the enemy, killing about 300 people.
3. 17 Nov mass heroism showed 80 Riflemen of the 2nd rifle company under the command of Lieutenant S. I. Kraev and the political leader Ahtan Khasanov, who was surrounded by around 231,5 enemy forces up to 400 infantry with the support of 8 tanks, no antitank weapons Soviet soldiers launched a counterattack and broke through the encirclement, while destroyed on the Soviet data 200 soldiers and officers, knocked out 3 tanks, captured 3 machine guns and one passenger car.
4. On 16 November a group of 20 gunmen, headed by second Lieutenant M. and Lieutenant Islamkulov by Ogureev repelled the attack of a battalion of German machine gunners near the village of Sound, broke through the defense line 1075 regiment and retired to the rear of the 2nd battalion of the neighboring 1073 th infantry regiment;
5. 17 Nov 17 fighters 1073 th infantry regiment, under the command of Lieutenant V. G. Ugryumov and assistant instructor A. N. Georgiev met with grenades the group of German tanks near the village Mykanino. Of the 17 people survived only two; enemy losses, according to Soviet data, amounted to 8 tanks lined;
6. 18 Nov 11 sappers from 1077 th infantry regiment, headed by Lieutenant P. I. Firstov and Junior political instructor A. M. Pavlov in the village Strokovo several hours held off the attack of a battalion of German infantry supported by tanks, providing a departure of the regiment. In July 1942, all the engineers were posthumously promoted to the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union, but was awarded the order of Lenin;
mass heroism showed 90 Riflemen under the command of Lieutenant Tankov in the village of Goryuny.

Do you think you do about those people movies in Hollywood? It was a rhetorical question.


You too, happy Thanksgiving!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:03 pm

Redd wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Western countries are sponsoring the separatists


...and Russia is doing everything to destabilize the EU. The current Polish government is a good example of that, all of the nationalist and racist right wing movements across the EU are trained and funded by your government.

Scorpius, little Kremlin troll on A.net?

Well, personally you can consider me the Kremlin hacker on the payroll of Putin personally.
And I'm just trying to show you the point of view of the common man from Russia. I have no doubt that you have, and we have plenty of propaganda. But if we don't talk to each other, we don't get a chance to understand how actually things are.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:27 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
The USSR is long gone, but the policy of sanctions and the embargo continues. We removed its troops from Eastern Europe, hell, we even withdrew troops from everywhere where they were. And what we got in return? NATO, an organization that was created to war with us, now practically on our doorstep.

Here's one reason why: To keep your troops from coming back! Besides it's none of your business how Estonia, Poland or Slovenia organize their defense. Has it ever occurred to you that historical experience with Russia in the post-WW2 era is precisely the driving factor for NATO membership in countries too close to Russia for comfort?

Scorpius wrote:
Hey, we dissolved the Warsaw Pact, why not do the same with NATO?

WarPac was dissolved against the will of the USSR.

Scorpius wrote:
That may seem strange and may be naive, but Russian culture is built largely on the sense of justice. If you act unjustly, you will never be trusted. You will never be friends.

This is nothing special and it works both ways.

Scorpius wrote:
We are a unique country, this was not before us, and will not be after us. We are small, only 1.5% of the population of the planet, but we occupy almost 15% of the land area. .

Then why is it such a problem for Russia to stay within its borders?

Scorpius wrote:
And how do we deal with Yugoslavia, which was destroyed by NATO forces?


Yugoslavia (a utilitarian product of the Versailles Treaty, just like Czechoslovakia) was destroyed by nationalism that ended into sensless violence.


Scorpius wrote:
the Soviet Union collapsed. As a result of the collapse of the Soviet Union lost about 15 million population is the direct fault of Western countries. The repression of the Stalin suffered from 2 million to 8 million people (including the dead from 800 thousand to 2 million), and now is called Stalin a bloody tyrant. The West has killed ten times more people - but they call themselves enlightened democracy. Yes, they are much worse than Stalin - he was only restored order in the country in radical ways.


Wow. Simply wow. The degree of denial and absence of any self-reflection about your own past is just amazing.
Soviet Union was a house of cards, materialization of Russian imperialism, chronically unable sustain itself. A cruel prison of nations. Any blame should be addressed to those who created it and those who kept it together, as usual in Russia, by brute force


1. Well, for example in Hungary could develop a negative experience of the Soviet Union in the Second world war - they fought on the German side. Like Czechoslovakia, Romania, France (except the troops of General De Gaulle), Italy, Denmark and dozens of countries. Someone provided the Nazis with tanks and planes, who provided volunteers in the Wehrmacht. Anyway, the whole European economy were involved against the USSR. Do you think that the Soviet Union could not compensate for the loss of almost 30 million citizens, forcing those who worked against the Soviet Union, is now working on the restoration of the damage caused due to them? That is the basic mistake Western countries, they somehow believe that the Soviet Union was in those areas by accident and for no reason.

2. However WarPac was dissolved. Well nobody hinders to dissolve NATO against the will of the United States, isn't it? WAIT, OH SHI...

3. I never said otherwise. But in Russia it is much more developed - it's part of the culture, and it is very good even in the works of classical literature.

4. Infrastructure, tradition, and the fact that 85% of Russian territory is not suitable for living - they are in the permafrost zone. Russia a hundred years ago was much larger than today - so what kind of aggression and conquest, is it?

5. In this case, the United States should be wiped off the face of the earth for the genocide of the native Americans, isn't it? What about Turkey, which occupied part of Greece? And what about Israel, which occupied the Golan heights which are Syrian territory? And what about the occupation of Panama? Somehow a lot of issues arise to be bastions of democracy and human rights, is not it?

6. "Russian imperialism", "A cruel prison of nations" - it is a propaganda slogan that started to throw in the InfoSphere, even Goebbels. That makes you wonder. Why do residents of Western countries are so fond of repeating Nazi propaganda?
You have no idea about how people lived in the USSR. More precisely, how. Your point of view is formed mainly on the publications of Western propaganda and some dissidents, such as Solzhenitsyn, who desperately lied about life in the Soviet Union, because they have earned fame, and money. Want to become a successful writer in the West? No problem - write about the bloody horrors of the Stalinist GULAG (or Royal prison), the prison of Nations and imperialism - that is popular in the West for hundreds of years.
Оnly here the USSR was the only country on Earth that has offered humanity an alternative to capitalism. By the way, you don't tell us why, after the collapse of the USSR the number of wars has not decreased, but even increased? Maybe the fact that the problem was not in the USSR, huh?
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:48 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Сompare the territory of the Russian Empire, USSR and modern Russia. Western countries are sponsoring the separatists who support them politically is not the first hundred years. Ukraine is separatists, who seceded from Russia in 1918. To the state "Ukraine" did not exist.


That's technically incorrect. The predecessor of Ukraine in the area was the Kievan Rus, a much older country than Russia that was eventually dismantled by it's neighbours. Secession of Ukraine from Russia was just return to status quo.

Scorpius wrote:

The second time Ukraine separated from the USSR, and ignoring the results of the referendum by which the majority of the Soviet population was in favor of keeping it.



Well, not a surprise on both ends. Except they didn't help themselves too much.

Scorpius wrote:

Crimea never even was Ukrainian territory, Ukraine actually invaded his territory after the collapse of the Soviet Union.



That is factually incorrect. Crimea was made a part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by order of Nikita Khrushchev.

Scorpius wrote:

And how do we deal with Yugoslavia, which was destroyed by NATO forces?



WTF are you talking about? The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not destroyed by NATO forces. Not by any means. It was a construct of a crazy history of the area in the first half of 20th century and had zero chance to survive after the authoritative semi-communist regime that kept it together has fallen apart. And to be honest, the locals did a great job destroying it.

But it's enough, I don't have time to pick your post apart. You named this topic "From Russia with truth", but it's more in lines with "From Russia with propaganda"

Just BTW, your answer to the question about traveling in soviet times is far from true as well. You forgot to mention the stop at the miliciya station for a travel permit if you wanted to go to another city. Not to mention that you still need visa to Schengen area, just as we need visa to travel to Russia.


1. Excuse me, but you make me laugh. This is a huge mistake, to say that Kievan Rus was a different state.This is about how to write that the Thirteen Colonies have no relation to the United States. The fact that Kievan Rus is not the name of the state. This designation of the time period approximately from IX to XII century. At this time the capital of the ancient Russian state was in Kiev. But before the capital was located in Novgorod and ruled in Kiev all the descendants of Rurik, who came from Scandinavia. The history of Kievan Rus is terminated during the Mongol invasion, when Kiev was conquered, and the capital had to move to another city. From the XVIII century to XX century the capital was in St. Petersburg, so can we talk about the state of "St. Petersburg Rus"? :)

2. But the decision was taken by Khrushchev illegal, the procedure is not complied with. Besides Sevastopol no one is deprived of the status of individual units of subordination, and in the Ukraine, Sevastopol was not included.

3. First, Yugoslavia had undergone the intervention of NATO forces without a legal reason. Internal problems of the country do not give the right to the bombing of its cities by a third force. Know if your neighbors, a married couple had a fight - it doesn't give you the right to burn their house down, proving that they really don't like each other.
Аs for the accusations of propaganda - I wrote "From Russia with truth" but I don't wrote "From Russia with YOUR truth." We have a different view of the events in the world, and it differs from yours. Otherwise there would be no need to discuss the matching point of view and to compromise, isn't it?
And the last one I wrote about my journey from Moscow to Minsk NOW, in 2015, and not on the time of the USSR. You clearly do not understand when reading
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:18 pm

Scorpius wrote:
And the last one I wrote about my journey from Moscow to Minsk NOW, in 2015, and not on the time of the USSR. You clearly do not understand when reading


I have no time to the others, but to this point: You have been asked how was travel in the soviet times, you answered with a trip to Minsk in 2015. So who's the one who doesn't understand when reading?
And BTW, do not fool yourself believing that you can bullshit me. I was born and raised in an eastern block country, been to the soviet union, have had family members who been in gulags during and after the war, have friends from Russia. I have a pretty good idea how people lived in the Soviet era and how humane the soviet regime was. Actually, I'm astonished that you even dare to use the word humane with in connection with the soviet regime.
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Bostrom
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:19 pm

Scorpius wrote:
3. First, Yugoslavia had undergone the intervention of NATO forces without a legal reason. Internal problems of the country do not give the right to the bombing of its cities by a third force.


Like the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968?

Scorpius wrote:
You clearly do not understand when reading


No offence, but your "terrible English" is sometimes very hard to understand. So the reader is probably not the only one to blame.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:37 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
3. First, Yugoslavia had undergone the intervention of NATO forces without a legal reason. Internal problems of the country do not give the right to the bombing of its cities by a third force.


Like the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968?

Scorpius wrote:
You clearly do not understand when reading


No offence, but your "terrible English" is sometimes very hard to understand. So the reader is probably not the only one to blame.


Oh, sorry, I try to write clearly, but Google translator is stronger than me. It is very different we construct a phrase in Russian and in English. And I don't blame readers for misunderstanding, I consider that the part is written may be distorted by translation.

As for Czechoslovakia - I can't justify nor blame any of the parties. Of course - I'm sorry that those events took place. However, let's look at the final number of victims on both sides - they are about equal. Don't you find that this is not typical of "the brutal suppression of the rebellion army of civilians"?
Also, why in the invasion of Czechoslovakia blame only Soviet Union, but that the invasion took troops from Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland, have somehow forgotten?

Well, Yes - if we condemn the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, why not condemn the invasion in Vietnam? How about condemnation of the invasion of Iraq?
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:50 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
And the last one I wrote about my journey from Moscow to Minsk NOW, in 2015, and not on the time of the USSR. You clearly do not understand when reading


I have no time to the others, but to this point: You have been asked how was travel in the soviet times, you answered with a trip to Minsk in 2015. So who's the one who doesn't understand when reading?
And BTW, do not fool yourself believing that you can bullshit me. I was born and raised in an eastern block country, been to the soviet union, have had family members who been in gulags during and after the war, have friends from Russia. I have a pretty good idea how people lived in the Soviet era and how humane the soviet regime was. Actually, I'm astonished that you even dare to use the word humane with in connection with the soviet regime.


Well, perhaps I do not understand what you wanted to know about the Soviet period. Please accept my apology in this mistake. However, let's be honest - you don't know shit about the USSR. The existence of the Gulag does not negate the fact that social security in the USSR was the best in the world for a set of attributes. In addition, the number of prisoners of the Gulag was lower than people sitting in US prisons. But for some reason the U.S. does not call a terrible totalitarian state.

In addition, you would do well to apologize for your attacks on me - I came here with good will to engage in dialogue, and not listen to the empty accusations of lying. I never wrote that the Soviet Union was the IDEAL state. I just explain that USSR and Russia are not the Evil Empire, as they tell in the West. If we consider the processes impartially, the Western countries have done far more evil, and more imperialistic.

Lately I see many warning signs that show that could start a war. You want this war? I don't. That's why I came here in the hope that if every citizen takes a step towards this war can be avoided. However, the response I get charges it is not clear what, and it just makes me hope that between the Russian and the Western community dialogue is possible. But if dialogue is not possible - only one option: war to complete destruction. Now you understand why I was there trying to explain to you my point of view?
 
jetwet1
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:36 pm

Guys, can I ask that everyone chill out for a minute, if I was Scorpius I would have said "F**k this" and never come back due to the tone of some of these replies. He raises a good point.

Scorpius wrote:
Аs for the accusations of propaganda - I wrote "From Russia with truth" but I don't wrote "From Russia with YOUR truth." We have a different view of the events in the world, and it differs from yours. Otherwise there would be no need to discuss the matching point of view and to compromise, isn't it?


It seems that he has only had one version of events fed to him, why don't we take a little time and educate him a little, as I am sure he will educate us a little. Having spent time in Russia I can honestly say they were fed a......Hmm how to put this, disjointed ?, inaccurate ? maybe view of the west while we were also fed a somewhat less inaccurate view of the USSR, but still in some ways inaccurate.

I again ask that everyone takes a deep breath and take a few seconds to understand that when you have only had limited contact outside of your realm you may have things badly wrong.


or he could be a troll and I just fell for it lol.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5652
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:56 pm

Scorpius wrote:
. However, let's look at the final number of victims on both sides - they are about equal. Don't you find that this is not typical of "the brutal suppression of the rebellion army of civilians"?

Interesting indeed, especially when you consider there was only one side that was shooting.

Scorpius wrote:
Also, why in the invasion of Czechoslovakia blame only Soviet Union, but that the invasion took troops from Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland, have somehow forgotten?

Because the invasion was Brezhnev's brainchild? He was smart enough to drag other countries into it so the inevitable blame could be shared, unlike in Hungary where the uprising was drowned in blood by Russia.

Scorpius wrote:
it just makes me hope that between the Russian and the Western community dialogue is possible. But if dialogue is not possible - only one option: war to complete destruction

Why war? You have stolen and invaded foreign territory (again) and now want to play the victim? If your leadership scaled down on their paranoia-meter and the population didn't buy their bs at face value, you'd realize that nobody's after Russia. Objectively speaking, despite all negatives, Russia is now experiencing the best time ever. For the first time in history the population is not starving, unlike in the "glorious" days of the USSR, so why all the whitewash and denial of your own history?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:00 am

Scorpius wrote:
That's why I came here in the hope that if every citizen takes a step towards this war can be avoided.


Like I said, I welcome your initiative. You ask us (westerners) to be open towards your views, may we ask the same from you? And I hope you understand that a lot of the negative views towards your country are directed to your autocratic leader, not towards Russians in general.

Hopefully, there will be a figure like Peter the Great whom tried to bring the west and the east together.

How would you suggest we come together, which subjects would you like to discuss and where could we seek common ground?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
meecrob
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:19 am

Scorpius wrote:
But if dialogue is not possible - only one option: war to complete destruction.


Hate to break it to you, but to be honest, aside from the fringe radicals, nobody cares enough about Russia to engage in war to complete destruction. We have better things to do. Though it is kinda unsettling you even bring it up...

Of course we have things like Red Flag and other wargames to simulate what would happen if a conflict with Russia were to break out (and other military scenarios, naturally), but nobody is rooting for a conflict. Its like how nobody learns CPR and wishes someone would go into cardiac arrest so they can use their CPR training.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:38 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
. However, let's look at the final number of victims on both sides - they are about equal. Don't you find that this is not typical of "the brutal suppression of the rebellion army of civilians"?

Interesting indeed, especially when you consider there was only one side that was shooting.

Scorpius wrote:
Also, why in the invasion of Czechoslovakia blame only Soviet Union, but that the invasion took troops from Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland, have somehow forgotten?

Because the invasion was Brezhnev's brainchild? He was smart enough to drag other countries into it so the inevitable blame could be shared, unlike in Hungary where the uprising was drowned in blood by Russia.

Scorpius wrote:
it just makes me hope that between the Russian and the Western community dialogue is possible. But if dialogue is not possible - only one option: war to complete destruction

Why war? You have stolen and invaded foreign territory (again) and now want to play the victim? If your leadership scaled down on their paranoia-meter and the population didn't buy their bs at face value, you'd realize that nobody's after Russia. Objectively speaking, despite all negatives, Russia is now experiencing the best time ever. For the first time in history the population is not starving, unlike in the "glorious" days of the USSR, so why all the whitewash and denial of your own history?


1. The problem is that this isn't unfamiliar territory.
2. Тhe problem is that our government suffers from paranoia - we see that and how do Western countries against us. You will not convince me that the NATO military bases on the territory of the former USSR republics intended for defense.You will not convince me that the NATO military bases on the territory of the former USSR republics intended for defense. And the fact that NATO closer to our borders are clear signs of aggression.
3. I'm sorry, but I remember how I and my family were starving in the nineties, when there was no work and no money even to buy bread. I wouldn't call it "best times in the history of Russia". And the last famine in the USSR in 1946, when the country was ravaged by the Germans and was trying to recover from a terrible war.And the last famine in the USSR in 1946, when the country was ravaged by the Germans and was trying to recover from a terrible war.Перевести вGoogleBingSpeaking of the famine in the USSR, to a large extent this famine was caused by the economic embargo that the West imposed on the Soviet Union. So the blame for the famine lies including you, if we are to raise that question.Speaking of the famine in the USSR, to a large extent this famine was caused by the economic embargo that the West imposed on the Soviet Union. So the blame for the famine lies including you, if we are to raise that question.

4.
Interesting indeed, especially when you consider there was only one side that was shooting.

Вoth sides used violence. "Peaceful protesters" showered the military with Molotov cocktails.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2347
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:56 am

Scorpius wrote:
And the last famine in the USSR in 1946, when the country was ravaged by the Germans and was trying to recover from a terrible war.And the last famine in the USSR in 1946, when the country was ravaged by the Germans and was trying to recover from a terrible war.Перевести вGoogleBingSpeaking of the famine in the USSR, to a large extent this famine was caused by the economic embargo that the West imposed on the Soviet Union. So the blame for the famine lies including you, if we are to raise that question.Speaking of the famine in the USSR, to a large extent this famine was caused by the economic embargo that the West imposed on the Soviet Union. So the blame for the famine lies including you, if we are to raise that question.


As you obviously have internet access, I have to ask, have you ever spent the night just throwing questions at Google for stuff like this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_fa ... E2%80%9347

Please take some time and read the link, let us know what is inaccurate from your point of view.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:05 am

meecrob wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
But if dialogue is not possible - only one option: war to complete destruction.


Hate to break it to you, but to be honest, aside from the fringe radicals, nobody cares enough about Russia to engage in war to complete destruction. We have better things to do. Though it is kinda unsettling you even bring it up...

Of course we have things like Red Flag and other wargames to simulate what would happen if a conflict with Russia were to break out (and other military scenarios, naturally), but nobody is rooting for a conflict. Its like how nobody learns CPR and wishes someone would go into cardiac arrest so they can use their CPR training.


Of course we have things like Red Flag and other wargames to simulate what would happen if a conflict with Russia were to break out (and other military scenarios, naturally), but nobody is rooting for a conflict.

The result of any military confrontation between NATO and Russia is mutually assured destruction in nuclear war. Humanity may not die, but the victims will number in the hundreds of millions. And it's not depends on how you feel about Russia with some interest or indifference. In this case, the indifference goes against you, because without the active participation of the people from both sides of politics will bring the situation before the war.

In Russia there is a popular joke which you could possibly not hear. Here it is: "In Europe, there is one long tradition - once in a hundred years Europe is going from strength and is coming to Russia. And gets fucked up. And another hundred years have almost passed".
This, of course, a joke. But in each joke only a joke share.

Maybe you've heard a Russian student recently played in the Bundestag in Germany? His performance in Russia caused a very large negative response, in particular, I would like to cite the words of one of the Russian bloggers:Maybe you've heard a Russian student recently played in the Bundestag in Germany? His performance in Russia caused a very large negative response, in particular, I would like to cite the words of one of the Russian bloggers:
"If I had to speak in the Bundestag, as the boy Cole, I said these words:
— Dear deputies. Today I saw a miracle. And this miracle is called Germany. I walked to you and looked at the beautiful Berlin streets, the people, wonderful monuments, and now I stand here and look at you. And I understand that everything is a miracle. You all were born and live in Germany. Why do I think so?
[i][i]Because given that your soldiers did we have in the occupied territories, the soldiers of the red Army had the moral right to destroy the entire German people. To leave the place Germany scorched field, the ruins, and only paragraphs of textbooks would be reminded of what was once a country.
You probably don't remember all the details of the occupation, but this is not necessary. I'll just remind you that the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS did to the Soviet children. They were shot. Often in the eyes of the parents. Or Vice versa, first shot father and mother, and then in children. Your soldiers raped children. Children were burned alive. Sent to concentration camps. Where they took blood to make the serum for your soldiers. Children starved. The children ate to the death of your shepherd. Children used as targets. Children brutally tortured just for fun.
Or here you have two examples. Officer of the Wehrmacht was difficult to sleep the baby, he took him by the leg and smashed his head on the corner of the stove. Your pilots on the station Lychkovo bombed the train, which was trying to take the children to the rear, and then your aces chased the terrified kids, shooting them in a bare field. Killed two thousand children.
Only one what did you do with the children, once again, the Red Army could have destroyed Germany completely with its inhabitants. Had the moral right. But I didn't. Do I regret this? Of course not. I admire the steel will of my ancestors who found some incredible power, not to become the same beast, what were soldiers of the Wehrmacht. On the buckles of German soldiers was written "God With us". But they were the devil incarnate and suffered hell on our land. The soldiers of the red Army were members of the Komsomol and Communists, but the Soviet people were much more Christian than the inhabitants of the enlightened religious of Europe. And did not retaliate. Unable to understand what the hell hell did not win.
You do not need to ask us for forgiveness, because you personally are not to blame. You can't be responsible for their grandfathers and great grandfathers. And then, only God forgives. But I'll be honest – for me the Germans are forever foreign, alien people. It's not because you personally are bad. It's in me shouts pain burnt by the Wehrmacht children. And you have to accept that at least my generation — for whom the memory of the war it honors my grandfather, his scars, his front-line friends will perceive you. What will happen then, I don't know. Maybe we will come mankurt who will be forgotten. And we much to do that, we pissed away a lot of that yourself, but I hope that all is not lost for Russia.
We certainly need to cooperate. Russians and Germans. We need together to solve problems. To combat ISIS and to build the pipelines. But you have to accept one fact: we will never repent for our Great war. And even more for the Victory. And especially in front of you. Anyway, again, my generation.

[/i][/i]Because it saved not only himself. We saved you from yourselves. And I don't even know what's important."
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:09 am

jetwet1 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
And the last famine in the USSR in 1946, when the country was ravaged by the Germans and was trying to recover from a terrible war.And the last famine in the USSR in 1946, when the country was ravaged by the Germans and was trying to recover from a terrible war.Перевести вGoogleBingSpeaking of the famine in the USSR, to a large extent this famine was caused by the economic embargo that the West imposed on the Soviet Union. So the blame for the famine lies including you, if we are to raise that question.Speaking of the famine in the USSR, to a large extent this famine was caused by the economic embargo that the West imposed on the Soviet Union. So the blame for the famine lies including you, if we are to raise that question.


As you obviously have internet access, I have to ask, have you ever spent the night just throwing questions at Google for stuff like this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_fa ... E2%80%9347

Please take some time and read the link, let us know what is inaccurate from your point of view.

We are talking about the same mass, the famine, which happened in the USSR. After the famine in the USSR was not. What is the problem you have?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:32 pm

Scorpius wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
But if dialogue is not possible - only one option: war to complete destruction.


Hate to break it to you, but to be honest, aside from the fringe radicals, nobody cares enough about Russia to engage in war to complete destruction. We have better things to do. Though it is kinda unsettling you even bring it up...

Of course we have things like Red Flag and other wargames to simulate what would happen if a conflict with Russia were to break out (and other military scenarios, naturally), but nobody is rooting for a conflict. Its like how nobody learns CPR and wishes someone would go into cardiac arrest so they can use their CPR training.


Of course we have things like Red Flag and other wargames to simulate what would happen if a conflict with Russia were to break out (and other military scenarios, naturally), but nobody is rooting for a conflict.

The result of any military confrontation between NATO and Russia is mutually assured destruction in nuclear war. Humanity may not die, but the victims will number in the hundreds of millions. And it's not depends on how you feel about Russia with some interest or indifference. In this case, the indifference goes against you, because without the active participation of the people from both sides of politics will bring the situation before the war.

In Russia there is a popular joke which you could possibly not hear. Here it is: "In Europe, there is one long tradition - once in a hundred years Europe is going from strength and is coming to Russia. And gets fucked up. And another hundred years have almost passed".
This, of course, a joke. But in each joke only a joke share.

Maybe you've heard a Russian student recently played in the Bundestag in Germany? His performance in Russia caused a very large negative response, in particular, I would like to cite the words of one of the Russian bloggers:Maybe you've heard a Russian student recently played in the Bundestag in Germany? His performance in Russia caused a very large negative response, in particular, I would like to cite the words of one of the Russian bloggers:
"If I had to speak in the Bundestag, as the boy Cole, I said these words:
— Dear deputies. Today I saw a miracle. And this miracle is called Germany. I walked to you and looked at the beautiful Berlin streets, the people, wonderful monuments, and now I stand here and look at you. And I understand that everything is a miracle. You all were born and live in Germany. Why do I think so?
[i][i]Because given that your soldiers did we have in the occupied territories, the soldiers of the red Army had the moral right to destroy the entire German people. To leave the place Germany scorched field, the ruins, and only paragraphs of textbooks would be reminded of what was once a country.
You probably don't remember all the details of the occupation, but this is not necessary. I'll just remind you that the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS did to the Soviet children. They were shot. Often in the eyes of the parents. Or Vice versa, first shot father and mother, and then in children. Your soldiers raped children. Children were burned alive. Sent to concentration camps. Where they took blood to make the serum for your soldiers. Children starved. The children ate to the death of your shepherd. Children used as targets. Children brutally tortured just for fun.
Or here you have two examples. Officer of the Wehrmacht was difficult to sleep the baby, he took him by the leg and smashed his head on the corner of the stove. Your pilots on the station Lychkovo bombed the train, which was trying to take the children to the rear, and then your aces chased the terrified kids, shooting them in a bare field. Killed two thousand children.
Only one what did you do with the children, once again, the Red Army could have destroyed Germany completely with its inhabitants. Had the moral right. But I didn't. Do I regret this? Of course not. I admire the steel will of my ancestors who found some incredible power, not to become the same beast, what were soldiers of the Wehrmacht. On the buckles of German soldiers was written "God With us". But they were the devil incarnate and suffered hell on our land. The soldiers of the red Army were members of the Komsomol and Communists, but the Soviet people were much more Christian than the inhabitants of the enlightened religious of Europe. And did not retaliate. Unable to understand what the hell hell did not win.
You do not need to ask us for forgiveness, because you personally are not to blame. You can't be responsible for their grandfathers and great grandfathers. And then, only God forgives. But I'll be honest – for me the Germans are forever foreign, alien people. It's not because you personally are bad. It's in me shouts pain burnt by the Wehrmacht children. And you have to accept that at least my generation — for whom the memory of the war it honors my grandfather, his scars, his front-line friends will perceive you. What will happen then, I don't know. Maybe we will come mankurt who will be forgotten. And we much to do that, we pissed away a lot of that yourself, but I hope that all is not lost for Russia.
We certainly need to cooperate. Russians and Germans. We need together to solve problems. To combat ISIS and to build the pipelines. But you have to accept one fact: we will never repent for our Great war. And even more for the Victory. And especially in front of you. Anyway, again, my generation.

[/i][/i]Because it saved not only himself. We saved you from yourselves. And I don't even know what's important."


What have the current German parliamentarians got to do with the terrible acts of WWII? You can't blame them for the acts of their grandfathers, the same we can't praise current Russians for the acts of WWII. We can, however, recognize what all parties did and didn't do. But what this writer is saying is patronizing and more important not true. This is not the way to build friendships.

I agree that in the west the role of Russia is often overlooked in WWII. But not all was rosy. Don't forget about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, this gave NAZI Germany the change to invade my country for instance. And Russia invaded a part of Poland because of this. After WWII the USSR confiscated Koningsburg and still has it. And it occupied defacto the DDR for the next 45 years.

After Hitler invaded Russia, yes, huge human sacrifieces were made by the USSR. And without Russia's war, it could have dragged on a lot longer than it has, but that also goes the other way around, without UK, America, the USSR would have collapsed as well. And the US came to the aid of Russia by delivering military goods to them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
meecrob wrote:

Hate to break it to you, but to be honest, aside from the fringe radicals, nobody cares enough about Russia to engage in war to complete destruction. We have better things to do. Though it is kinda unsettling you even bring it up...

Of course we have things like Red Flag and other wargames to simulate what would happen if a conflict with Russia were to break out (and other military scenarios, naturally), but nobody is rooting for a conflict. Its like how nobody learns CPR and wishes someone would go into cardiac arrest so they can use their CPR training.


Of course we have things like Red Flag and other wargames to simulate what would happen if a conflict with Russia were to break out (and other military scenarios, naturally), but nobody is rooting for a conflict.

The result of any military confrontation between NATO and Russia is mutually assured destruction in nuclear war. Humanity may not die, but the victims will number in the hundreds of millions. And it's not depends on how you feel about Russia with some interest or indifference. In this case, the indifference goes against you, because without the active participation of the people from both sides of politics will bring the situation before the war.

In Russia there is a popular joke which you could possibly not hear. Here it is: "In Europe, there is one long tradition - once in a hundred years Europe is going from strength and is coming to Russia. And gets fucked up. And another hundred years have almost passed".

When I think of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, but somehow forget the Covenant of the Hitler-Pilsudski, forget about the Munich agreement, approved the annexation of the Sudetenland. Forget that the Soviet Union concluded similar agreements with Germany, other European countries signed the assurances in eternal friendship with the Nazis even since 1934. Poland in early 1938, offered jointly by Germany to attack the USSR. So why do you think that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was somehow a bad thing? At that time and in those conditions it was quite logical.
This, of course, a joke. But in each joke only a joke share.

Maybe you've heard a Russian student recently played in the Bundestag in Germany? His performance in Russia caused a very large negative response, in particular, I would like to cite the words of one of the Russian bloggers:Maybe you've heard a Russian student recently played in the Bundestag in Germany? His performance in Russia caused a very large negative response, in particular, I would like to cite the words of one of the Russian bloggers:
"If I had to speak in the Bundestag, as the boy Cole, I said these words:
— Dear deputies. Today I saw a miracle. And this miracle is called Germany. I walked to you and looked at the beautiful Berlin streets, the people, wonderful monuments, and now I stand here and look at you. And I understand that everything is a miracle. You all were born and live in Germany. Why do I think so?
[i][i]Because given that your soldiers did we have in the occupied territories, the soldiers of the red Army had the moral right to destroy the entire German people. To leave the place Germany scorched field, the ruins, and only paragraphs of textbooks would be reminded of what was once a country.
You probably don't remember all the details of the occupation, but this is not necessary. I'll just remind you that the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS did to the Soviet children. They were shot. Often in the eyes of the parents. Or Vice versa, first shot father and mother, and then in children. Your soldiers raped children. Children were burned alive. Sent to concentration camps. Where they took blood to make the serum for your soldiers. Children starved. The children ate to the death of your shepherd. Children used as targets. Children brutally tortured just for fun.
Or here you have two examples. Officer of the Wehrmacht was difficult to sleep the baby, he took him by the leg and smashed his head on the corner of the stove. Your pilots on the station Lychkovo bombed the train, which was trying to take the children to the rear, and then your aces chased the terrified kids, shooting them in a bare field. Killed two thousand children.
Only one what did you do with the children, once again, the Red Army could have destroyed Germany completely with its inhabitants. Had the moral right. But I didn't. Do I regret this? Of course not. I admire the steel will of my ancestors who found some incredible power, not to become the same beast, what were soldiers of the Wehrmacht. On the buckles of German soldiers was written "God With us". But they were the devil incarnate and suffered hell on our land. The soldiers of the red Army were members of the Komsomol and Communists, but the Soviet people were much more Christian than the inhabitants of the enlightened religious of Europe. And did not retaliate. Unable to understand what the hell hell did not win.
You do not need to ask us for forgiveness, because you personally are not to blame. You can't be responsible for their grandfathers and great grandfathers. And then, only God forgives. But I'll be honest – for me the Germans are forever foreign, alien people. It's not because you personally are bad. It's in me shouts pain burnt by the Wehrmacht children. And you have to accept that at least my generation — for whom the memory of the war it honors my grandfather, his scars, his front-line friends will perceive you. What will happen then, I don't know. Maybe we will come mankurt who will be forgotten. And we much to do that, we pissed away a lot of that yourself, but I hope that all is not lost for Russia.
We certainly need to cooperate. Russians and Germans. We need together to solve problems. To combat ISIS and to build the pipelines. But you have to accept one fact: we will never repent for our Great war. And even more for the Victory. And especially in front of you. Anyway, again, my generation.

[/i][/i]Because it saved not only himself. We saved you from yourselves. And I don't even know what's important."


What have the current German parliamentarians got to do with the terrible acts of WWII? You can't blame them for the acts of their grandfathers, the same we can't praise current Russians for the acts of WWII. We can, however, recognize what all parties did and didn't do. But what this writer is saying is patronizing and more important not true. This is not the way to build friendships.

I agree that in the west the role of Russia is often overlooked in WWII. But not all was rosy. Don't forget about Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, this gave NAZI Germany the change to invade my country for instance. And Russia invaded a part of Poland because of this. After WWII the USSR confiscated Koningsburg and still has it. And it occupied defacto the DDR for the next 45 years.

After Hitler invaded Russia, yes, huge human sacrifieces were made by the USSR. And without Russia's war, it could have dragged on a lot longer than it has, but that also goes the other way around, without UK, America, the USSR would have collapsed as well. And the US came to the aid of Russia by delivering military goods to them.



I just gave you an example of opinion, which is very common in Russia. You know, I have relatives, at least three were killed. One went missing at Stalingrad. One died from shrapnel wounds in the abdomen at a hospital near Vladikavkaz. One went missing in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, the guy was 19, he was a member of the Komsomol, and remained on the territory of the USSR occupied by the Germans and handed over to the Germans by his school teacher - she was Jewish and hoped that she would read out the cooperation with the occupation administration. When they searched his jacket pocket found a Komsomol ticket, and that was enough to send in a concentration camp. He once tried to escape from a concentration camp, but was caught. After that no documents about his fate not found.I just gave you an example of opinion, which is very common in Russia. You know, I have relatives, at least three were killed. One went missing at Stalingrad. One died from shrapnel wounds in the abdomen at a hospital near Vladikavkaz. One went missing in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, the guy was 19, he was a member of the Komsomol, and remained on the territory of the USSR occupied by the Germans and handed over to the Germans by his school teacher - she was Jewish and hoped that she would read out the cooperation with the occupation administration. When they searched his jacket pocket found a Komsomol ticket, and that was enough to send in a concentration camp. He once tried to escape from a concentration camp, but was caught. After that no documents about his fate not found.

I don't blame current Germans for what did their ancestors. But forget the war, unfortunately, will not soon happen. In the USSR in each family were killed or those who were in captivity, or survived the siege. Why I say that there is no paranoia in Russian - just not yet forgotten the evil that brought Europe to us.

By the way, a considerable part of the territories of Poland occupied by Soviet troops in 1939 was occupied by Poland from the Soviet Union in the war of 1919-1922.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:03 pm

Scorpius wrote:
As for Czechoslovakia - I can't justify nor blame any of the parties. Of course - I'm sorry that those events took place. However, let's look at the final number of victims on both sides - they are about equal. Don't you find that this is not typical of "the brutal suppression of the rebellion army of civilians"?
Also, why in the invasion of Czechoslovakia blame only Soviet Union, but that the invasion took troops from Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland, have somehow forgotten?


Other countries invaded Czechoslovakia as well, true. But I find it hard to believe that it would have happened without the Soviet Union. But how about Hungary 1956? Or East Germany 1953? You are upset about Nato bombing another independent country, but can't blame the Soviet Union for doing the same?

Scorpius wrote:
Well, Yes - if we condemn the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, why not condemn the invasion in Vietnam? How about condemnation of the invasion of Iraq?


I don't know where you get your news, but there were huge protests against the Iraq war in 2002/2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_ ... e_Iraq_War There were huge protest against the Vietnam war as well. Even a musical turned Hollywood movie protesting the war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNrqc6yvTU

However, if your reaction when Russia and the Soviet Union is criticized always is "but the west does bad things too", it's hard to take you seriously. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque (Article available in russian as well.) It's important to be able to recognize that even your own country can do bad things. Look at how Germany has handled their nazi heritage, they have dealt with it and are now a respected country that no neighbouring countries are afraid of. (Even if they've had some PR-problems in Greece.)

Scorpius wrote:
2. Тhe problem is that our government suffers from paranoia - we see that and how do Western countries against us. You will not convince me that the NATO military bases on the territory of the former USSR republics intended for defense.You will not convince me that the NATO military bases on the territory of the former USSR republics intended for defense. And the fact that NATO closer to our borders are clear signs of aggression.


Great that you are able to admit the level of paranoia in Kreml. But, "You will not convince me" are the words of a fundamentalist, not the words of someone with an open mind. And it all boils down to if you think that independent states should be able to decide for themselves what to do, even if they happen to have a border with Russia?

As said earlier:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Here's one reason why: To keep your troops from coming back! Besides it's none of your business how Estonia, Poland or Slovenia organize their defense. Has it ever occurred to you that historical experience with Russia in the post-WW2 era is precisely the driving factor for NATO membership in countries too close to Russia for comfort?


The former Warzaw pact countries that joined Nato did so of their own free will. Probably as a way to remain independent. You were quick to point out that that the transfer of Crimea to Ukraine was illegal, so i expect you to also admit that the Soviet occupation of Estonia was also illegal and the result of an invasion. I've met many people born and raised in the former Soviet satellite states, but I've yet to meet one person claiming that life was better before the fall of the Berlin wall.

The west doesn't hate Russia, even though that sometimes is the image that russian media tries to portray. But, we are not so fond of the current russian leaders, Putin is generally seen as an authoritarian leader doing his best to dismantle the last remains of democracy and turn himself into a dictator. But that doesn't mean I hate Russia and russians. Just as I don't hate the US just because I think Trump is not fit to be president.
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