Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue May 15, 2018 2:04 pm

aviationaware wrote:
I don't often side with Dutchy, but the way you are defending the abysmal state of affairs in Russia is absolutely reprehensible, Scorpius. Russia is a mafia state.

I never doubted for a moment that this is the position of Western propaganda.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue May 15, 2018 6:51 pm

Scorpius wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
I don't often side with Dutchy, but the way you are defending the abysmal state of affairs in Russia is absolutely reprehensible, Scorpius. Russia is a mafia state.

I never doubted for a moment that this is the position of Western propaganda.


Still is quite cute how you frame everything that doesn't suit your narrow narrative you label as Western propaganda. In hind site, I laugh at your first thread I noticed you, you tried to make yourself as someone whom truly tried to engage with westerners to seek common ground. First I thought it was interested and I tried to talk to you as I was truly curious about the views of ordinary Russians, I was wrong you turned out an"ordinary" Putin adapt, unable to think or yourself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 2:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
Illegal bridge to an illegally annexed territory. A number of Dutch companies played a part in the construction - guess Russia didn't have that technology if they went to a Dutch firm to help them build it - and they are in trouble with the law because of it. It is part of the sanctions against Russia.

So I don't know why it is so proudly displayed here? It is like a burglar proudly displaying his spoils of a crime.

And I guess Scorpius didn't like the comments made about the MS-21 and had them removed because they are gone, while the second MS-21 first flight is quite impropriated to mention here in the general forum. So perhaps he can have this comment removed as well since he dislikes all negative comments about Russia.


What’s wrong with the bridge? Isn’t it the EU narrative - “build bridges, not walls”? Well - they built the bridge. Now people in Crimea have more freedom of movement, trade is also more free. All positives, regardless where you look.

And - what’s wrong with the second MS-21? Some here mention “Russia’s abysmal state” - well, the MS-21 was demonstrated as a success of Russia, and it certainly is - at last someone does something new in narrow-body segment. Both Airbus and Boeing are still capitalizing on 1980-s designs with their A320 and B737, and nobody sees any issues with this. Russians did move away from Tu-204 or designs based on it, even though it was developed and first flew around the same time as A320 and 737NG.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 5:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
What’s wrong with the bridge? Isn’t it the EU narrative - “build bridges, not walls”? Well - they built the bridge. Now people in Crimea have more freedom of movement, trade is also more free. All positives, regardless where you look.


Russia is a burglar and now you claim, what is wrong with visiting people, all positive more human interaction, all positive, regardless where you look, right?

Com'on, even or you, as entertaining as it is, this statement is complete bull.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 5:42 am

Dutch Government Dropping Kaspersky Software Over Spying Fears

The Dutch government is phasing out the use of anti-virus software made by Russian firm Kaspersky Lab amid fears of possible spying, despite vehement denials by the Moscow-based cybersecurity company.

The Dutch Justice and Security ministry said in a statement late Monday the decision had been taken as a "precautionary measure" in order "to guarantee national security."


https://www.voanews.com/a/dutch-governm ... 94581.html
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 5:50 am

anrec80 wrote:
And - what’s wrong with the second MS-21? Some here mention “Russia’s abysmal state” - well, the MS-21 was demonstrated as a success of Russia, and it certainly is - at last someone does something new in narrow-body segment. Both Airbus and Boeing are still capitalizing on 1980-s designs with their A320 and B737, and nobody sees any issues with this. Russians did move away from Tu-204 or designs based on it, even though it was developed and first flew around the same time as A320 and 737NG.


If you want to talk about the MS-21, that is fine, there is a whole part of the forum dedicated to that, you might actually say it is what brings most of us together here.

But com'on, even for you, pushing your own agenda like that while ignoring what has been said is reaching new heights. I said nothing about the MS-21 itself, I made an assertion about Scorpius and he acknowledged it later on. He had a comment censored he didn't like, exposing yet again his hypocrisy because he is one on this forum whom loves to do ad hominem and in general being aggressive towards others. So do you have an opinion about that?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 6:08 am

Interesting article about the bridge. Some highlights:

MOSCOW — President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday opened a $4 billion bridge directly linking Russia to Crimea, giving him a propaganda victory that drew condemnation from the West and served as the latest demonstration of his personalized system of power.


Putin, clad in jeans and a jacket, walked on the Russian end of the 12-mile-long, four-lane bridge alongside the business mogul who built it — Arkady Rotenberg, the president’s former judo partner. Then Putin took the wheel and drove over the Kerch Strait of the Black Sea in an orange Kamaz dump truck — manufactured by a state-owned company headed by Sergey Chemezov, Putin’s KGB colleague in East Germany in the 1980s. Both Rotenberg and Chemezov are under U.S. sanctions.


Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov had earlier told journalists that Putin’s bridge project showed that “even the most ambitious plans can be realized when they are implemented by him.”


It also underscored the Putin-centric system of political and economic patronage in Russia. Rotenberg’s role as the builder of the bridge showed how Russia’s billionaires have been able to leverage their closeness to Putin to further enrich themselves — while also rendering services to the state.


Ukraine should just bomb the bridge, it is illegally built on their territory, so they are in their right to demolish it.

It also underscored the Putin-centric system of political and economic patronage in Russia. Rotenberg’s role as the builder of the bridge showed how Russia’s billionaires have been able to leverage their closeness to Putin to further enrich themselves — while also rendering services to the state.


The focus on Putin’s role, however, also hinted at a less flattering reality: the untold number of poor roads, railroads and bridges across the country that don’t benefit from the president’s personal patronage. The World Bank ranks the quality of Russia’s trade and transport infrastructure at 94th in the world, just behind Tunisia and ahead of Colombia.


Across the country, Russians complain of corruption and poor execution hindering much-needed public works repairs and infrastructure projects. The government’s push to pour money into Crimea will mean even fewer funds for projects elsewhere, said Dmitry Oreshkin, a Moscow political analyst.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pu ... 4487ed2be5

So the story of the bridge is actually the story of current Russian state:
- autocratic thus centralized regime
- personality cult around Putin
- distraction from the truth, look here a shiny new bridge, don't look at the fact we are 94th in the world in infrastructure we have a shiny new bridge, bling bling.
- misappropriation of state funds
- corruption by people near Putin which hold him into power
- aggression towards its neighbors

Intersting story indeed.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 9:21 am

Dutchy wrote:
Dutch Government Dropping Kaspersky Software Over Spying Fears

The Dutch government is phasing out the use of anti-virus software made by Russian firm Kaspersky Lab amid fears of possible spying, despite vehement denials by the Moscow-based cybersecurity company.

The Dutch Justice and Security ministry said in a statement late Monday the decision had been taken as a "precautionary measure" in order "to guarantee national security."


Getting rid of the NSA Uber Spy stuff that seeps in via Microsoft products would provide a quantum leap in improved security.:-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 9:52 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Dutch Government Dropping Kaspersky Software Over Spying Fears

The Dutch government is phasing out the use of anti-virus software made by Russian firm Kaspersky Lab amid fears of possible spying, despite vehement denials by the Moscow-based cybersecurity company.

The Dutch Justice and Security ministry said in a statement late Monday the decision had been taken as a "precautionary measure" in order "to guarantee national security."


Getting rid of the NSA Uber Spy stuff that seeps in via Microsoft products would provide a quantum leap in improved security.:-)


America isn't an autocratic country without checks and balances, like Putin's Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 10:03 am

Dutchy wrote:
America isn't an autocratic country without checks and balances, like Putin's Russia.


The US is not autocratic. I give you that.

But those checks and balances seem to have been neutered rather carefully.
Just look at that dealmaking judicative, pork barrel legislation,
an alien infested POTUS with a mental basket case sitting as national security advisor, ...

The US, me semeth, is a Backroom Oligarchy with a representative head of state
and also a representative democratic front :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 1:50 pm

WIederling wrote:
The US is not autocratic. I give you that.


Thanks man, for acknowledging a fact, how unlike you.
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anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 2:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting article about the bridge.

Ukraine should just bomb the bridge, it is illegally built on their territory, so they are in their right to demolish.

Intersting story indeed.


Are you seriously offering Ukrainians to bomb Russians? You recall the history of 2014. First, in April of that year they bombed Luhansk already. Consequences still don’t have an end in sight. Second - what to bomb with? By the fall of that very same year Ukraine ran out of Air Force - all the planes were hit.

Last but not least - even Gen. Mattis from Trump Administration avoids like hell any attempts to talk to Russians using language of bombs. Even sanctions don’t work there obviously. And you are offering that to the Ukrainian drunkard? Even after 3 bottles of vodka he realizes should he do something like this he is simply not destined to sober up. Or, at best, this would be the last time ever he was to get wasted.

Every single Ukrainian “democratic leader” and “patriotic” idiot just needs to get through his head - crimea is gone thanks to their own “patriotic” efforts. And leave such ideas alone.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 2:55 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting article about the bridge.

Ukraine should just bomb the bridge, it is illegally built on their territory, so they are in their right to demolish.

Intersting story indeed.


Are you seriously offering Ukrainians to bomb Russians? You recall the history of 2014. First, in April of that year they bombed Luhansk already. Consequences still don’t have an end in sight. Second - what to bomb with? By the fall of that very same year Ukraine ran out of Air Force - all the planes were hit.

Last but not least - even Gen. Mattis from Trump Administration avoids like hell any attempts to talk to Russians using language of bombs. Even sanctions don’t work there obviously. And you are offering that to the Ukrainian drunkard? Even after 3 bottles of vodka he realizes should he do something like this he is simply not destined to sober up. Or, at best, this would be the last time ever he was to get wasted.

Every single Ukrainian “democratic leader” and “patriotic” idiot just needs to get through his head - crimea is gone thanks to their own “patriotic” efforts. And leave such ideas alone.


So out of all those points raised, you decide to pick my comment which obviously isn't all that seriously. I guess satire doesn't suit you.
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 3:12 pm

What I think is funny and telling is that based on Putin's dictation Russia spends over $50 billion on one Winter Olympics and $4 billion one one bridge, vanity projects get support from Putin and meanwhile trash is overrunning its landfills and the rest of its road are among the worst in the world.

Putin is a vainglorious leader (of course so is Trump but he can't dictate anything). But that is Russia's problem to deal with. We will see if their new budget promises end up actually happening.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 3:41 pm

Tugger wrote:
What I think is funny and telling is that based on Putin's dictation Russia spends over $50 billion on one Winter Olympics and $4 billion one one bridge, vanity projects get support from Putin and meanwhile trash is overrunning its landfills and the rest of its road are among the worst in the world.


No, probably a way to get taxpayers money into the pockets of Putin and his friends. The Winter Olympics is a prime example, an estimated 20-25% of that 50bn is corruption. Just look at the inflated budget for proof.

Beautiful symbioses, Putin gets to play the hero in front of the world and especially for Russians - sad thing, it works, just look at the reaction here of the Putin adapts - and in the meantime, he can continue to rob the Russian state:
- Winter Olympics in a sun resort
- Bridge
- WC football

Massive expensive events to organize and thus many ways to skim from the tops.
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anrec80
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So out of all those points raised, you decide to pick my comment which obviously isn't all that seriously. I guess satire doesn't suit you.


Ahhh - so that was satire. Glad to hear. See, such things are spoken seriously too often. In Ukraine, it’s very uncommon to hear serious suggestions along these lines. Such as to bomb the bridge, to explode it, to photograph from satellites every single car passing over it, etc. And Western officials and Western media also gladly pick these Ukrainian “ideas” and even say “we trust them”.
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 4:34 pm

anrec80 wrote:
and even say “we trust them”.

Well the problem is Russia invaded Ukraine and is occupying their territory so it is difficult to "trust" when the country that has stolen land will not release it. I honestly do not see how Russia will extricate itself from this situation they created. Too prideful.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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KICT
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 4:35 pm

Regarding Russia, it's a shame targeted political assassinations are frowned upon. Putin needs to be taken out.
It's also a shame that the people of Russia stood idly by as their democracy turned into a mafia state. WEAK!
 
Scipio
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 4:36 pm

US State Department statement on opening of Kerch bridge:

The United States condemns Russia’s construction and partial opening of the Kerch Strait Bridge between Russia and occupied Crimea, which was done without the permission of the government of Ukraine. Crimea is part of Ukraine. Russia’s construction of the bridge serves as a reminder of Russia’s ongoing willingness to flout international law.

The bridge represents not only an attempt by Russia to solidify its unlawful seizure and its occupation of Crimea, but also impedes navigation by limiting the size of ships that can transit the Kerch Strait, the only path to reach Ukraine’s territorial waters in the Sea of Azov. We call on Russia not to impede this shipping.

The United States has sanctioned numerous individuals and entities involved in this project. These and our other Crimea-related sanctions will remain in place until Russia returns control of the peninsula to Ukraine.

We once again reaffirm our commitment to Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity and recall the international community’s expression of that commitment in UN General Assembly Resolution 68/262.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/05/282116.htm


EU Statement on the partial opening of the Kerch Bridge

Statement by the Spokesperson on the partial opening of the Kerch Bridge

The Russian Federation has constructed the Kerch Bridge to the Crimean Peninsula without Ukraine's consent. This constitutes another violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity by Russia. The construction of the bridge aims at the further forced integration of the illegally-annexed peninsula with Russia and its isolation from Ukraine of which it remains a part. The bridge limits the passage of vessels via the Kerch Strait to Ukrainian ports in the Azov Sea.

The European Union continues to condemn the illegal annexation of Crimea and Sevastopol by Russia and will not recognise this violation of international law.

http://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/head ... -bridge_en


UK FCO statement on opening of Kerch bridge:

Minister for Europe Sir Alan Duncan condemned the opening of the bridge from Russia to Crimea, and highlighted the UK’s concerns about human rights in Crimea.

Sir Alan Duncan said:

Crimea is part of Ukraine, and its annexation by Russia is a breach of international law.

The opening of this bridge represents yet another violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty, and a further example of Russia’s reckless behaviour. We continue to work with partners to oppose the annexation, including by maintaining a robust package of sanctions.

The UK also remains deeply concerned by the human rights situation in Crimea, where we have seen the systematic persecution of minority groups and of those who voice their opposition to Russia’s illegal annexation of the territory. We call again for Russia to release all Ukrainian political prisoners held in Crimea and in Russia, and to allow unrestrained access for international human rights monitoring bodies to the peninsula.

http://www.gov.uk/government/news/fco-s ... rch-bridge
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 16, 2018 4:52 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So out of all those points raised, you decide to pick my comment which obviously isn't all that seriously. I guess satire doesn't suit you.


Ahhh - so that was satire. Glad to hear. See, such things are spoken seriously too often. In Ukraine, it’s very uncommon to hear serious suggestions along these lines. Such as to bomb the bridge, to explode it, to photograph from satellites every single car passing over it, etc. And Western officials and Western media also gladly pick these Ukrainian “ideas” and even say “we trust them”.


Don't believe in violence, but Ukraine would be perfectly in its right to do so, it is their territory occupied by a foreign power. But seriously, no comment on all the other points raised? So I presume you agree with them all, good to hear.
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WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu May 17, 2018 7:43 am

KICT wrote:
Regarding Russia, it's a shame targeted political assassinations are frowned upon. Putin needs to be taken out.
It's also a shame that the people of Russia stood idly by as their democracy turned into a mafia state. WEAK!


Presidential candidate Yeltsin was instantiated by way of massive ( and rather underhanded) election help from the US.
Yeltsin was a drunkard who pissed away the remaining wealth of the Soviet Union to the Western leaning mafiose Oligarchs.

Follow up to Yeltsin was Vladimir Putin, viewed at the time ( my guess) as a colorless KGB apparatchik, putty in the hands of Yeltsins US overlords.:-) didn't quite play out as intended. He actually and under the hood is the patriot that a lot of Americans pretend to be.

I don't see a "Lost Democracy" on the way from 1990 to Today. I see the reign of Yeltsin as the lowest
and today's Russia as the highest point up to now on the way to a fair society.
Murphy is an optimist
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu May 17, 2018 9:02 am

WIederling wrote:
I don't see a "Lost Democracy" on the way from 1990 to Today. I see the reign of Yeltsin as the lowest
and today's Russia as the highest point up to now on the way to a fair society.


Would not expect otherwise from a notorious Putinversteher... :roll:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu May 17, 2018 9:28 am

WIederling wrote:
Follow up to Yeltsin was Vladimir Putin, viewed at the time ( my guess) as a colorless KGB apparatchik, putty in the hands of Yeltsins US overlords.:-) didn't quite play out as intended. He actually and under the hood is the patriot that a lot of Americans pretend to be.

I don't see a "Lost Democracy" on the way from 1990 to Today. I see the reign of Yeltsin as the lowest
and today's Russia as the highest point up to now on the way to a fair society.


Brilliant how indoctrination works and how effective propaganda actually is.
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Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu May 17, 2018 9:48 pm

I have a serious question to Russophobes who came here: What are you doing here?
Seriously, why are you going on about this?
L410Turbolet, which splatters immediately spit screaming about bad Russian, seized Czechoslovakia: Czechoslovakia your that you hate so much, was ruled by the Czechs, and not Russian. That's one. Second, the number of victims among the Czechs in 1968 was several dozen times less than the number of victims of the" democratic " bombing of Serbia in 1999, which your beloved Czech Republic happily supported. The Russians in 1968 could easily wind up all Czechoslovakia with all its dissenters on the tracks of tanks, but they did not. The Russians, if you remember, generally have much less experience of suppressing people's discontent than any of the European countries, which are widely distinguished in their colonies. So why don't you first pay attention to your Russophobe howling on page and particularly in this thread. I don't give a shit what the hell you were doing in your propaganda-washed head. I'm telling here about Russia - the way it is not in the Western media propaganda releases. Please respect my right to Express my point of view - or get out of the topic.


I have not once stated. Russia has its own point of view, has its own political interests. And you have to reckon with them. All of Russia's current actions are only a response to the actions of the brazen US and the EU. We have been warned for twenty years-do not approach our borders with our military bases - we have been ignored. Now you get a response. If you continue to pursue a policy in the same idiotic way, Russia will respond symmetrically. Ultimately, Europe and the US will be in ruins, if you want it that way.
Once again, this is not Russia's choice. It's the choice of those idiots who rule the US and the EU. If you support their Russophobia-you're the same idiot.
Each of your Russophobic statement-this is another strong argument for the start of the war in the near future. It is simply a statement of fact. If you think you're capable of winning world war III - congratulations, you're an idiot.

Russia has conceded for too long-now the limit for concessions is over. Further Russia will move only forward. The closest analogy is a spring. It is shrinking only to certain limits, and Russia has already reached these limits, as it has repeatedly warned.
I hope that I have clearly outlined the prospects for further relations between Russia and the West while maintaining the current trends. In Russia nobody cares about what we think about the Americans or the Czechs or the poles or someone else. We act on our interests because we have already seen that the West is not capable of making a settlement, and all the agreements with the West are not worth the paper on which they are written.

And I once again have to ask the local Russophobes - get out of this topic. If you want to yell about what is wrong with Russia - create your topic there and yell as much as necessary. Here I want to post news from Russia, and not to refute the dull lies of another Dutchy. In any case recall, that theme is called "from Russia with true." Not from the Netherlands, not from the Czech Republic, not from the UK or USA. from Russia. This topic is devoted to the reflection of the point of view of Russia and ordinary Russians on the events. Not some Russophobe Dutchy with his ridiculous tales. And not offended by the Czechs L410.
 
WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri May 18, 2018 1:49 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Would not expect otherwise from a notorious Putinversteher... :roll:

Dutchy wrote:
Brilliant how indoctrination works and how effective propaganda actually is.


This is so much like medieval witch hunt times.

"Earth is flat and at the center of the universe.
If you do not follow our lead we will burn you on the stake
because you obviously are a facet of the devil incarnate."
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri May 18, 2018 8:26 pm

WIederling wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Would not expect otherwise from a notorious Putinversteher... :roll:

Dutchy wrote:
Brilliant how indoctrination works and how effective propaganda actually is.


This is so much like medieval witch hunt times.

"Earth is flat and at the center of the universe.
If you do not follow our lead we will burn you on the stake
because you obviously are a facet of the devil incarnate."


Saying that with Putin regime on its way to a fair society is just too funny with oligarchs in charge and the oligarch in chief owning up to 200bn USD from a governmental salary. Putin is heading a corrupt regime which is there to suck the country as dry as they can without collapsing it. But I get it, stating facts is in your eyes a witch hunt. :lol:
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Scipio
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri May 18, 2018 10:58 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Hi all. I'm from Russia and I'm ready to answer your questions. Let's have a little chat. If you are interested, of course.


So, who is afraid of the truth?
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue May 22, 2018 4:54 pm

On April 20, 2018, the bn-800 reactor was brought to the power level of 880 Megawatts at the Beloyarsk NPP. Thus, the experimental fast neutron reactor with a sodium coolant has almost reached the design maximum electric power, which should be 885 Megawatts. To date, a more powerful reactor, bn-1200, is already being designed in Russia. The construction of fast neutron reactors can make nuclear power more widespread, as the fuel for such reactors can be used already spent fuel from traditional water-water type reactors. The technology of fast neutron reactors in the future allows to switch to a waste-free cycle of nuclear fuel and to increase the world's available nuclear fuel for nuclear power plants by several times.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Wed May 23, 2018 4:04 pm

Fine if it only uses already spend fuel. But not with new fuel please, it still takes centuries before the waste product isn't dangerous anymore.

That has been experimenting with this technology since 1949, so hopefully, the Russians got it right and it is not a dangerous reactor.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu May 24, 2018 6:43 am

The people whom were left behind with the MH17 tragedy wrote an open letter to the Russian people.

In June the world will turn its eyes toward Russia for the Football World Cup. It will be a long awaited and joyous event. For most Russians it will also be an occasion of deep national pride.

Some of us who write these words are passionate followers of football, others are not. But none of us will be able to share in this World Cup in the way we would have done before. We have something in common that gives this event and the place in which it is held, a different, darker meaning.

On July 17, 2014 Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine. Two hundred and ninety eight people were killed. Among the bodies lying among the debris and fields of sunflowers were our children, our partners, our brothers and sisters, our parents.


The impact on our lives
Despite it being nearly four years since our lives were shattered, we struggle to comprehend what happened. The people we love were killed in a war, a war in which they were not combatants, a war they had nothing to do with. We know they are not the only victims of this confrontation. More than 10, 000 people have been killed, the majority of them civilians. Their families are grieving like ours, not understanding why the people they love have been snatched from them. It is the finality of death that is so painful. We could live with a separation, even of years, if we knew it had an end.

We, as families of those killed on MH17, are still breathing, but the lives we had also came to a close that day. We are not the same people we were before. The world we live in is darker and less hopeful. We have struggled to maintain faith in human goodness. It may be that some of us will find some sense of purpose and happiness again. But we will always be marked by the brutal and sudden death of those we love.

Even more though, this callous act has defined the people we love. Their stories, which should have gone on, have come to an abrupt stop. We now cannot experience them, we can only remember them. Part of our remembering must be to speak of the wrongfulness of their deaths and urging that those responsible for this crime are called to account. The people we love can no longer speak for themselves.

We know there is a long history between Russia and Ukraine and there are different perspectives on what led to conflict erupting in 2014. No nation state is blameless, including our own. All nations have a right to flourish as best they can, without impeding or violating the rights of others. All parties must be prepared to face what part they have played in the conflict. But whatever the history and exact circumstances, that can never justify the shooting down of a passenger plane and the killing of all those on board. How do we respond to that?

Questions of hate and responsibility
Like all who have suffered the violent death of people we love, we are tempted to respond with hate. But we have to separate ordinary Russian people from the individuals responsible - the chain of command that led to the shooting down of MH17. Most of us don’t know Russian people well. Hate and distrust come partly from ignorance and when we know more of a person’s story, that can change how we see things. We know that the Russian people have a right to thrive, as did our loved ones. Still, we struggle. If we are able to change it will take time. But we know that giving in to hatred and bitterness would consume us and, unchecked among the nations, it will destroy human life on this planet.

It is easier when we remember we are all human beings and what we have in common. Some of us saw the faces of Russian families after Metrojet Flight 9268 was bombed and crashed over Egypt in October 2015, killing all 224 people on board. They were overwhelmed with grief, struggling to comprehend what had happened. We understand that disbelief, the horror of your loved one’s lives being taken violently and without warning. If ever we met those families perhaps we could start a conversation, for we would already know a central truth about each other’s lives.

No, we do not blame the Russian people for what happened. We are not against you. We hold the Russian state and its leaders as ultimately responsible for the deaths of our family members. All the credible evidence points in that direction. It has already been a long wait for us, but sometime in the future the five nation Joint Investigation Team will deliver its final report and people will be named. Then it will be up to the appointed court in the Netherlands to carefully weigh the evidence and reach a conclusion about which individuals were responsible.

The importance of truth
We have confidence in the thoroughness and impartiality of the work conducted by the Joint Investigation Team. The same cannot be said about the reporting on MH17 coming out of Russian state media channels. In the first months some of us were troubled by the multiple, often contradictory stories about what happened to MH17 coming out of Russia. “MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet.” “It was blown up by a missile intended for the Russian President’s plane.” “It was already full of dead bodies and deliberately crashed.” “It was shot down by a BUK missile but not one of Russia’s.” These shocking, disturbing and contradictory stories were then magnified 1000 fold in posts on different social media. All this material was distressing. Some of us had doubts. It is only later that we came to understand that this was exactly what was intended. These practices are part of a coordinated state campaign of misinformation intended to distract and confuse, to create an alternative reality in which all truth is relative and no information can be trusted. The Russian state media, as well as private media channels that cooperate with the state, are complicit in this vile and deceitful campaign. We know that all countries, including our own, bend the truth and tell lies sometimes. But do Russian people really want to live in a country where the truth has ceased to exist? Perhaps some of you reading this already think that we do not exist and that this article is made up?

Well, we are real, and our hope is that ultimately truth will prevail.

We appeal again for the Russian government to cooperate fully with the international investigation into MH17. It will not bring our families back but the truth does matter, the truth does exist and we want those responsible for MH17 to be identified and held accountable. We teach our children when they are small that they must own up to their mistakes and take responsibility for their actions. We want our governments to do the same. We ask Russia to do the same.

Shared humanity
In recent months world tensions have increased. In an atmosphere of hostility and distrust we need international systems based on the rule of law, where each has confidence that justice and fairness is at least possible. We also need to recover our sense of shared humanity. Ultimately, we are all in this together on this one, small, blue planet.

In 2014 our children and families lay lifeless amidst the fields and sunflowers of Eastern Ukraine. In 2015 Russian children and families lay lifeless on the stones and sand of the Egyptian desert. In death we are not so different. Barriers of language, culture, differences in race or religion no longer matter. What remains is loss and love. Human loss and love.

This World Cup
All this is in our minds and hearts as we contemplate this World Cup in Russia. Football is called the world game. More nations play this game than any other. At its best football can mirror what is admirable about us all - our distinct styles of play, our culture, our singing and dress, our obvious passion or our steely discipline, our skill, courage and creativity, the sheer joy of play, the desire to strive and be tested to our utmost, and the respect we give those with whom we compete.

At its worst football can mirror the ugliness of which we are also capable. It can descend into a closed minded and aggressive nationalism, reinforcing divisions and prejudices, opening old wounds and inflicting new ones.

The football World Cup can be a celebration of our shared humanity. It can be an example, however fleeting, of our capacity to live with each other in peace. If it is that, then we might be better able to lift our heads to watch.

May this World Cup be played in a good spirit. We hope that it is a success and something in which ordinary Russian people can take pleasure and pride. But we cannot deny that from our perspective, a shadow hangs over this event. We are painfully aware of the dark irony that the Russian leaders who will profess to welcome the world with open arms, are those who are chiefly to blame for shattering our world. And that it is these same leaders who have persistently sought to hide the truth, and who have evaded responsibility ever since that dreadful day in July 2014.


https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles/20 ... 173f6b98b4

It is impressive from these people and they are correct of course, it is not the Russian people, it is the Russian governement whom is not working with the MH17 investigation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu May 24, 2018 12:09 pm

And now it has been proven that the MH17 was downed by a Russian military missile. So the Putin regime is neck deep into this. Are they going to claim that the missile was stolen from Russian military stock? Ah well, we will see what the official Russian authority response is going to be, they have yet to comment even though they were asked to by the JIT.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1394919
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri May 25, 2018 12:40 pm

Now it is proven to be a Russian military missile, the Dutch and Australian governments are holding the Russian Federation responsible for the downing of the MH17.

In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/52 ... -mh17.html

We will see where this will lead too.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri May 25, 2018 8:17 pm

According to the most recent UNAIDS figures, Russia is the third largest country in the world with the most, new HIV infections, after South Africa and Nigeria. The number of new HIV infections in the Eastern Europe-Central Asia region is the most shocking in Russia.

The Dutch Aids fund has started a project to central and eastern Europe. So Dutch money is finding its way to amoung Russia to help ordinary Russians, that is a good thing. We are one world and people are the same, so we should help each other.

The number of new HIV infections is decreasing worldwide, but it is alarming in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. With Russia first. The HIV epidemic is growing by 10% per year, just as quickly as during the early years of the epidemic in Africa. We come into action to turn the tide.

Eighty AIDS deaths per day
In Russia and surrounding countries, HIV care and AIDS prevention are lagging far behind other regions. In Russia, the number of new HIV infections increased by an alarming 75% between 2010 and 2016! While in the meantime eighty Russians die every day from the effects of AIDS, Putin is only watching.

Online HIV project
That is why we are now developing an innovative online project in the region itself. In this way we reach 150,000 gay men and sex workers in Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine and Russia and give them access to HIV prevention, testing and care. And that is badly needed, because under the leadership of the conservative Russian government, homophobia in the region is rising sharply. Men who have sex with men are everywhere discriminated against and excluded from medical care. Consequence: the epidemic is getting around here. Right under our nose. This new outbreak is a real threat to the end of AIDS.


In Dutch: https://aidsfonds.nl/projecten/keer-het-tij/
In Dutch: https://aidsfonds.nl/blogs/louises-blog ... n-per-dag/
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 7:35 am

In the meantime in the Russian annexed and occupied Crimea: human rights activist arrested.

Crimean Tatar Civic Activists arrested in new offensive against Crimea Solidarity

Russia has ignored even the Holy Month of Ramadan and carried out new armed searches and arrests in occupied Crimea, with one of the targets Server Mustafaev, a highly-respected civic activist and coordinator of the Crimea Solidarity movement. This is the latest attack on men who are actively reporting on rights violations in occupied Crimea and helping the families of political prisoners. Reports about these arrests have coincided in the Russian media with claims of a bizarre ‘plot’, involving a Ukrainian recently abducted while entering Crimea and aimed at discrediting the Mejlis, or self-governing body, of the Crimean Tatar people.

Vans with masked men turned up early in the morning of 21 May at the Bakhchysarai homes of Server Mustafaev and Edem Smailov, who is also active in Crimea Solidarity. Mustafaev’s lawyer Emil Kurbedinov was prevented from being present, which is a flagrant violation of Mustafaev’s right to defence. There were elderly people in the Mustafaev home, as well as his four small children. It is difficult to conceive the trauma inflicted on children when men with automatic rifles burst into their homes, force their fathers to the floor and take them away. Mustafaev’s third very small son Yusuf came out on to the street where people had come to show support, saying that they’d taken his Babashka (Daddy) away. He was shaking and crying hysterically.


http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1526908240

Given Putin's Russia human rights records, this is not surprising at all.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 5:08 pm

Oh, interesting. My post with the analysis of JIT lies about flight MH17 was immediately removed from the forum. Surprisingly democratic!

P.S.Anyone can go and read about why JIT gave out false evidence at the last press conference: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewtopic.php?id=489&p=16
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 6:27 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Oh, interesting. My post with the analysis of JIT lies about flight MH17 was immediately removed from the forum. Surprisingly democratic!

P.S.Anyone can go and read about why JIT gave out false evidence at the last press conference: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewtopic.php?id=489&p=16

A lot of posts were deleted because they contained personal attacks, which then led to a lot of referenced post deletions. Surprisingly simple explanation — all you had to do was ask.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 7:54 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Oh, interesting. My post with the analysis of JIT lies about flight MH17 was immediately removed from the forum. Surprisingly democratic!

P.S.Anyone can go and read about why JIT gave out false evidence at the last press conference: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewtopic.php?id=489&p=16


THat is a Russian website, so I can't read it. And I saved your "analysis" in the dedicated thread, so everyone can see that it was yet again a post with a lot of assumptions and no substance. You are welcome.

Like I said and warned you, do a personal attack and I will report you and then it is up to the moderators what to do with them. I was very open about it, so don't act surprised, doesn't suit you. Democracy doesn't mean that you are free to do your personal attacks at will. Treat the other as you want to be treated yourself
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 8:16 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Oh, interesting. My post with the analysis of JIT lies about flight MH17 was immediately removed from the forum. Surprisingly democratic!

P.S.Anyone can go and read about why JIT gave out false evidence at the last press conference: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewtopic.php?id=489&p=16

A lot of posts were deleted because they contained personal attacks, which then led to a lot of referenced post deletions. Surprisingly simple explanation — all you had to do was ask.


There were no personal attacks on anyone in that message. There has been a listing of arguments as to why JIT's performance is a false piece of information, an attempt to fabricate evidence, and a question to Dutchy as to why he is bringing false information here. I recommend that you read Dutchy's posts on this topic in more detail before you thoughtlessly respond to "a large number of complaints." I'm in this thread represent the views of the citizen of Russia on the events - this theme is created by me, and I don't see why I should tolerate insults towards Russia and deliberate lie, designed to put my country in a negative light. Note-I react precisely on false information, not on "negative information." If you under "freedom of speech" to understand the limitation of any objectionable to you opinion, then just say so.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 8:53 pm

Scorpius wrote:
There were no personal attacks on anyone in that message.

The post you're referring to contained a referenced post that was deleted. By our rules, posts that are deleted for infringing the rules must also have replies to that post deleted. It's the only way to remove the offending content, because we don't edit posts.

Scorpius wrote:
I'm in this thread represent the views of the citizen of Russia on the events - this theme is created by me, and I don't see why I should tolerate insults towards Russia and deliberate lie, designed to put my country in a negative light.

This isn't the way this site operates. You don't own a thread just because you created it. You can represent whatever you wish, but what you will and will not tolerate is not of our concern. Our concern is ensuring users follow the rules.

Scorpius wrote:
If you under "freedom of speech" to understand the limitation of any objectionable to you opinion, then just say so.

"Freedom of speech" refers to government infringement of speech. This terminology does not apply to private entities like this site. We allow users to express their opinions provided the rules are followed. We don't censor users for their opinions, but we reserve the right to delete any content that we deem violates our rules. My opinion on the subject is irrelevant, because my role is to ensure that users are following our rules. Plain and simple.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 9:06 pm

Scorpius wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Oh, interesting. My post with the analysis of JIT lies about flight MH17 was immediately removed from the forum. Surprisingly democratic!

P.S.Anyone can go and read about why JIT gave out false evidence at the last press conference: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewtopic.php?id=489&p=16

A lot of posts were deleted because they contained personal attacks, which then led to a lot of referenced post deletions. Surprisingly simple explanation — all you had to do was ask.


There were no personal attacks on anyone in that message. There has been a listing of arguments as to why JIT's performance is a false piece of information, an attempt to fabricate evidence, and a question to Dutchy as to why he is bringing false information here. I recommend that you read Dutchy's posts on this topic in more detail before you thoughtlessly respond to "a large number of complaints." I'm in this thread represent the views of the citizen of Russia on the events - this theme is created by me, and I don't see why I should tolerate insults towards Russia and deliberate lie, designed to put my country in a negative light. Note-I react precisely on false information, not on "negative information." If you under "freedom of speech" to understand the limitation of any objectionable to you opinion, then just say so.


You still don't get it and don't get freedom of speech even though you have been told on many occasions. But I will spell it out once more for you:
- calling someone a liar without evidence = personal attack, you did so in each and every post, you were warned not to do so, yet you continued, then don't be surprised your post got deleted and rightfully so.
- Proof that the JIT uses a false piece of information, proof, not just say it and expect everyone to take your word over the word of an official investigation which checks everything and documents everything and eventually has to prove its case in court. Until you do, I believe the JIT without any doubt and is the missile Russian and thus the Putin regime is neck deep into the murder of 198 Dutchmen and 100 other nationalities. You claim to be 30, not a child, don't be naive and wonder why people don't believe your word. You can't be that naive, you just can't if you are indeed 30.
- Fabricate evidence by the JIT, that is the highest accusation you could make for a prosecutor --> again, evidence please and iron class that the JIT itself deliberately made evidence. If you can't then that is a deliberate act of your side to lie about the JIT, so I am waiting yet again, proof what you are saying.
- Which false information did I bring here? Other than 1 picture, which has been dealt with yet you love to bring up.
- I do not represent any views other than my own, unless you are paid by the Russian government, you can also only speak for yourself, so no you do not represent the views of citizens of Russia, that is just bullocks.
- Should you tolerate insults? No and you should look up the definition of insult, criticism isn't the same as insults. Insults is what you are doing by calling someone a liar without backing it up and than your post got deleted.
- And yet again, which deleberate lies are you talking about? An open invitation to come up with independendly veriviable prove. Proof your big words, not that hard if you are using it, no is it?
- Your country owned the missile that downed MH17, that is a fact, not a negative light. Your country annexed Crimea against international law, that is a fact, not a negative light etc. etc. etc.
- Again, proof it is false information, not just saying it is, proof!
- Freedom of speech isn't the freedom to do these personal attacks. So sorry, you do not have the freedom to do these personal attacks and I will continue to report you if you do.

You do not own this thread and this thread is about Russia, so I will post any information I like about Russia, it is on topic, it has been much better documented than most of the things you say about the west. If you do not like it, I suggest you leave, because you can't deal with the freedom of speech and you continue to go back to your Putin bubble you seem to live in.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 9:14 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
There were no personal attacks on anyone in that message.

The post you're referring to contained a referenced post that was deleted. By our rules, posts that are deleted for infringing the rules must also have replies to that post deleted. It's the only way to remove the offending content, because we don't edit posts.

Scorpius wrote:
I'm in this thread represent the views of the citizen of Russia on the events - this theme is created by me, and I don't see why I should tolerate insults towards Russia and deliberate lie, designed to put my country in a negative light.

This isn't the way this site operates. You don't own a thread just because you created it. You can represent whatever you wish, but what you will and will not tolerate is not of our concern. Our concern is ensuring users follow the rules.

Scorpius wrote:
If you under "freedom of speech" to understand the limitation of any objectionable to you opinion, then just say so.

"Freedom of speech" refers to government infringement of speech. This terminology does not apply to private entities like this site. We allow users to express their opinions provided the rules are followed. We don't censor users for their opinions, but we reserve the right to delete any content that we deem violates our rules. My opinion on the subject is irrelevant, because my role is to ensure that users are following our rules. Plain and simple.

OK, don't take this as a personal claim against you. I just don't understand all the nuances of your rules at the moment. English is not my native language, and google-translator often translates with great distortion.If I understand you correctly, posts from Dutchy that contain provocative or offensive content should simply be sent to a moderator.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 9:15 pm

Scorpius wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
There were no personal attacks on anyone in that message.

The post you're referring to contained a referenced post that was deleted. By our rules, posts that are deleted for infringing the rules must also have replies to that post deleted. It's the only way to remove the offending content, because we don't edit posts.

Scorpius wrote:
I'm in this thread represent the views of the citizen of Russia on the events - this theme is created by me, and I don't see why I should tolerate insults towards Russia and deliberate lie, designed to put my country in a negative light.

This isn't the way this site operates. You don't own a thread just because you created it. You can represent whatever you wish, but what you will and will not tolerate is not of our concern. Our concern is ensuring users follow the rules.

Scorpius wrote:
If you under "freedom of speech" to understand the limitation of any objectionable to you opinion, then just say so.

"Freedom of speech" refers to government infringement of speech. This terminology does not apply to private entities like this site. We allow users to express their opinions provided the rules are followed. We don't censor users for their opinions, but we reserve the right to delete any content that we deem violates our rules. My opinion on the subject is irrelevant, because my role is to ensure that users are following our rules. Plain and simple.

OK, don't take this as a personal claim against you. I just don't understand all the nuances of your rules at the moment. English is not my native language, and google-translator often translates with great distortion.If I understand you correctly, posts from Dutchy that contain provocative or offensive content should simply be sent to a moderator.


If you think my post are provocative or offensive, yes please do. There is the triangle in each and every post. Note: news or documented post or an opinion about Putin can never be considered provocative or offensive ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 9:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
because you can't deal with the freedom of speech and you continue to go back to your Putin bubble you seem to live in.


The opponent's baseless accusation of presenting an allegedly paid point of view or spreading propaganda, Dutchy, is a severe insult in the vast majority of cultures. I will note that you continue to insult me personally with your statements that are not based on any facts at all. You just don't like what I say about Russia, that's why you're trying me with a forum to delete by any means.

Your country owned the missile that downed MH17, that is a fact, not a negative light. Your country annexed Crimea against international law, that is a fact, not a negative light etc. etc. etc.
[/quote][/quote]
Maybe you do not know, but in General ALL the complexes of "BUK" and missiles to them were somehow produced in Russia. That does not prevent them from being currently in service such countries as Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, Finland, Venezuela, Egypt, Cyprus, Georgia, Syria.
And when JIT at a press conference makes a statement like " Shock! Sensational! The rocket was made in Russia, which means the Russians are guilty!", a sane Russian will shrug his shoulders, and say something like: "here are idiots, they are confused four years guessed that the rocket is made in Russia." Because all these missiles were produced at the plants, which are located on the territory of Russia.

At the same time, the inscriptions in Russian, which are visible on the samples presented, speak clearly: the missile was produced in 1986. The service life of the missile may not exceed 25 years, taking into account two extensions of 5 years each. After these 25 years, the missiles are either decommissioned or fired during the exercise. Seriously, do you really think anyone would risk using a missile that could detonate just in preparation for launch?

If the Russian military had decided to provide the rebels with BUK systems, they would have taken care to ensure that the warheads of such complexes fully correspond to the warheads in Ukraine's armament. Or do you think that the Russian military was not aware of what modification of missiles is in service of the Ukrainian troops?

If JIT was interested in the most objective investigation - this group would include representatives of Russia, and the investigation itself should have been conducted as transparently as possible. Instead, I observe that in the European press, a few hours after the disaster, Russians were accused categorically, JIT refuses to interact with the official Russian structures, and the case materials are as secret as possible. And now, after FOUR YEARS(!!!) we spread some pieces of iron with the words "we have such awesome evidence, but we will not show them to you, because it is a secret." And then run to call the Russian Embassy, to persuade Russian to take the blame for the Downing of MH17. I'm even tired of remembering that violated all possible rules and regulations of investigative and operational work.

Let me remind you that the version that THE mh17 was allegedly shot down by a new modification of the missile is based on the presentation of photographs of heavily deformed rusty debris "reminiscent of the I-beam." I will tell you a secret-such "I-beams" can be scored on any Russian range - because they are scattered by thousands after the training shooting. At the same time, we have no references to the location of "elements similar to the I-beam", there is no evidence of witnesses who would confirm that these elements were found at the crash site of MH17. I continue to lead the list of coincidences and surprising discoveries made by the JIT?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 10:20 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Maybe you do not know, but in General ALL the complexes of "BUK" and missiles to them were somehow produced in Russia. That does not prevent them from being currently in service such countries as Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, Finland, Venezuela, Egypt, Cyprus, Georgia, Syria.
And when JIT at a press conference makes a statement like " Shock! Sensational! The rocket was made in Russia, which means the Russians are guilty!", a sane Russian will shrug his shoulders, and say something like: "here are idiots, they are confused four years guessed that the rocket is made in Russia." Because all these missiles were produced at the plants, which are located on the territory of Russia.


Yes I do know, I am sure the JIT knows, so that is not what they said. They said the missile that shot down the MH17 came from the 53rd brigade from the Russian military. So I don't know why you bring this up.

Scorpius wrote:
At the same time, the inscriptions in Russian, which are visible on the samples presented, speak clearly: the missile was produced in 1986. The service life of the missile may not exceed 25 years, taking into account two extensions of 5 years each. After these 25 years, the missiles are either decommissioned or fired during the exercise. Seriously, do you really think anyone would risk using a missile that could detonate just in preparation for launch?


Apparently, someone did, since this was the missile that shot the MH17 down. That is a fact now. So I don't know why you bring this up.

Scorpius wrote:
If the Russian military had decided to provide the rebels with BUK systems, they would have taken care to ensure that the warheads of such complexes fully correspond to the warheads in Ukraine's armament. Or do you think that the Russian military was not aware of what modification of missiles is in service of the Ukrainian troops?

Apparently, the Russian military did, since the missile that shot the MH17 down was not equipped with a Ukraine warhead. That is a fact now. So I don't know why you bring this up.

Scorpius wrote:
If JIT was interested in the most objective investigation - this group would include representatives of Russia, and the investigation itself should have been conducted as transparently as possible. Instead, I observe that in the European press, a few hours after the disaster, Russians were accused categorically, JIT refuses to interact with the official Russian structures, and the case materials are as secret as possible. And now, after FOUR YEARS(!!!) we spread some pieces of iron with the words "we have such awesome evidence, but we will not show them to you, because it is a secret." And then run to call the Russian Embassy, to persuade Russian to take the blame for the Downing of MH17. I'm even tired of remembering that violated all possible rules and regulations of investigative and operational work.


Why would Russia has to be included? Following their own statement, they had nothing to do with it, they are not present in Eastern Ukraine, they did not supply any military grade weapons to Eastern Ukranian rebels? So what expertise did they have to offer? All expertise needed, was indeed asked to the company that made the BUK or any other evidence the Russians brought to the table was analyzed and either taken into account or proven to be false thus dismissed. All conclusions are given to the Russian to react to, before they are final, also with these conclusions, Russia has yet to react. Macron did push Putin at their meeting about it though.
Now that it is proven that Russia was less than candor, not revealing that it was a Russian military missile and that Russia is the one being accused it is not logical to include them into the investigation into Russia and Russian military and citizens as well as Russian backed Ukrainian rebels.

If you say Ukraine is included and therefore it can never be objective, two things:
- Ukraine gave jurisdiction to the Dutch, while they didn't have to do that;
- Dutch prosecutors are objective, already gave you the peer-reviewed list which compares international justice systems which proofs that.

The JIT has made a lot of evidence publicly available. But more importantly, they have to prove their case in court, not the public opinion. It doesn't matter what the western press is saying. Till now, the Dutch government has never commented if Russia was responsible, until now, now they have made the unprecedented step to formally accuse the Russian Federation, a big step. Russia has accused Ukraine a lot of times, but never took official steps towards it.

You can draw any conclusion you want, four years of investigation and the reputation of the people involved tells me they have done a though job and only reveal something when they know something without any reasonable doubts especially since everything is taken under a microscope in Russia.

Scorpius wrote:
Let me remind you that the version that THE mh17 was allegedly shot down by a new modification of the missile is based on the presentation of photographs of heavily deformed rusty debris "reminiscent of the I-beam." I will tell you a secret-such "I-beams" can be scored on any Russian range - because they are scattered by thousands after the training shooting. At the same time, we have no references to the location of "elements similar to the I-beam", there is no evidence of witnesses who would confirm that these elements were found at the crash site of MH17. I continue to lead the list of coincidences and surprising discoveries made by the JIT?


Ok, now you seem to suggest/accuse the JIT/accident investigation board, Dutch military/police or even Ukrainian rebels to place those I-beams at the crash site and a gruesome fact inside the body of the captain for instance.

Scorpius, the Putin regime is neck-deep in the shooting down of MH17, Russia is responsible for what happens to its weapons - if supplied to the rebels or a Russian military pushed the button. I am not going to convince you, you will never convince me unless you come with some hard proof contradicting the JIT and please direct it to the JIT as well. If you do not have any: the sooner you accept that, the better it is for everyone, including yourself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 5527
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with truth

Sat May 26, 2018 10:37 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
because you can't deal with the freedom of speech and you continue to go back to your Putin bubble you seem to live in.


The opponent's baseless accusation of presenting an allegedly paid point of view or spreading propaganda, Dutchy, is a severe insult in the vast majority of cultures. I will note that you continue to insult me personally with your statements that are not based on any facts at all. You just don't like what I say about Russia, that's why you're trying me with a forum to delete by any means.


Yet again, this becomes a bit tiresome, if you are paid to do these comments, I do not know. What we do know because it is very well documented, Putin's government has paid trolls, trolling western fora, just like this one. I have suspicions about some, but frankly, I sincerely believe you are not one and you just believe this crap that you post here. You are spreading Russian propaganda, that is just a fact.

I full heartedly that I do not like what you are saying about Russia interaction with the world. I don't like you praise some human right violations and just shake my head when you comment on things inside Russia and praising Putin like you do.

I do not try to get you removed from the forum, however, as I have warned you I would do if you accuse me of lying if you accuse me of anything and you do so without proper evidence, I will report you. This can't be a surprise.

So congratulations on making a post without any ad honiums, I, of course, will not report that one because there is nothing to report.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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