Sexual Assault - all of it

Tugger · Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:34 pm

So many stories are coming to light now, people are finally feeling safe or empowered enough to come forward and share their story publicly and many are naming names. The high and mighty and powerful everywhere, religious, political, star-power famous of all creed and affiliations are being called out out, accused, and exposed. Some have gotten long due comeuppance, their careers and reputations destroyed, some defiantly are denying the claims with varying degrees of support or success, some are apologizing. It needed to happen.

Of course I don't know how long it will continue to be in the prime spotlight, but people love a good story of powerful people falling, to being proven to be "less than" so I suspect it will continue to flare up for quite awhile. We will have to wait and

One interesting aspect I read was regarding the Moore allegations, and the idea of older men pursuing younger girls. It is not that unusual for a guy to date and be with and date and have sex with a girl/woman four or five years his junior. Even wider age ranges are of course fine when we are talking about adults but this also occurs in "questionable" age ranges: The most common adults/college students dating high school students, this often happens as two students dating in school and one graduates. So I get it. But it is an issue in many ways if you look at it in black and white. Another version is "child brides" kids marrying adults. It is allowed in many states, usually with eh approval of the parents and/or the courts. This story on it does me think it should probably be just now allowed and while I also understand there are some valid reasons for it it probably does deserve a lot closer scrutiny (not that I have actually looked into it much). Anyway here is a link to the story.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/15/opinions/ ... index.html

So sexual assault... it's a problem, apparently fairly widespread... Who knew?

Tugg

einsteinboricua · Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:47 pm

Tugger wrote:
So sexual assault... it's a problem, apparently fairly widespread... Who knew?

Tugg

As Trump would say: "Nobody knew..."

That being said, I am concerned, not for the acts, because that's wrong and should never be condoned. I'm concerned about the potential for abuse that this brings out.

Granted, the actions we've heard from Moore and others are sexual advancements and/or actual groping. And in the case of some, there's evidence or circumstantial evidence to point to it.

Two things:
1. I agree with a lot of the folks asking why it took some of them decades to bring this out to light. Even that soldier on deployment who had concrete evidence of Al Franken...why did she allow this event to go by unreported all this time? This could imply that there are many, many, many more cases that are yet unreported. Now, granted, the trauma and the fear of speaking out is understandable, but I still find it hard two believe that it eats you up inside without the desire to reveal it not for revenge, but to advocate and shine a light on women's rights. That's not to say I don't believe it when several claims, made by people that are strangers to each other, all point in the same direction.

2. What does this mean for men in what has become a politically-correct society? I remember a few years ago, we had a pizza party at work and we were marveling at how good the pizza was (from Papa John's actually). And I was recalling the first time I tasted Papa John's pizza and how it reminded me of an episode of Family Guy where Stewie eats some meatloaf and remarks how it tastes "orgasmic". Within the hour, a coworker's husband (who also worked at the company) IM'ed me to ask me to refrain from sexual talk around his wife because she felt uncomfortable. No actual sexual advance, only referencing an episode from a series that is not even "R"...and she felt uncomfortable.

I thankfully don't work at that site anymore and I was ready to go to HR if the husband or coworker threatened action since:
1. It wasn't any of his business.
2. There was absolutely nothing that implied being improper towards her (and the fact that she laughed it off only made the IM from the husband more surprising).

I pretty much avoided walking by said coworker's area and relegated any interaction to a quick work discussion (not even a "Hello" or "Good bye").

But I mention this event as an example of how things could have gone south in an instant...over something that was purely innocent (in the sense of not meaning for it to be considered as an advance). And to this day I wonder if I were to run for national office, would she come out and say "he sexually harassed me at work"? Is it up to me to prove my innocence or is it up to her to prove her claim?

The answer to that last question (in all these cases) will depend on your view of the accused: if you hate the accused, you'll believe her claim; if you idolize the accused, then she has to prove her case.

Look no further than Roy Moore supporters who are asking the ladies to take a polygraph while Roy Moore haters are taking the claims at face value.

DIRECTFLT · Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:12 am

New George H.W. Bush accuser says President Bush groped her during the 1992 re-election campaign.

By Athena Jones, CNN
Updated 3:43 PM ET, Thu November 16, 2017

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/ ... index.html

seb146 · Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:52 am

I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Trump
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Moore
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Wienstien
I did that and it was stupid and I apologize - Frankin

So, let's demonize Frankin and forgive Moore and Trump. That is what I am hearing. As Frankin said, there is no excuse for it. At least he and Louis CK owned up to it and are taking their punishments. It does not excuse what they did but at least they are man enough to admit what they did was wrong!

DIRECTFLT · Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:32 am

Second Woman Says Franken Aggressive

https://mediaequalizer.com/brian-malone ... sed-me-too

Chairman Steps Down As NPR Grapples With Harassment Crisis

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/16/56462923 ... ent-crisis

Dutchy · Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:42 am

I think it is good to have an open debate about it. Why not? One can make a harmless comment which could be conceived as something sexual and made one feel uncomfortable. So ok, let's talk about it, let's see were the norm lies.

The real sexual advances or worse, there are no excuses for that. That said, also here in The Netherlands there are a few cases openly discussed. And the way they are doing it, crucifying (accuser, prosecutor, and judge all rolled into one) the alleged purpetrater, isn't right as well, I mean I almost feel sorry for them.

So my take on this: talking about it --> YES, crucifying individuals in the public arena --> NO.

Kiwirob · Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:45 am

seb146 wrote:
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Trump
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Moore
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Wienstien
I did that and it was stupid and I apologize - Frankin

I still wouldn't be surprised if a lot of women who did use what they've got to get ahead are now jumping on the he made me do it bandwagon, how else does one explain the stellar careers of some very pedestrian and no talent actresses.

That said where's there's smoke there's fire and some women and now men probably do have legitimate cases to be addressed and the perps prosecuted if they haven't timed out.

Now even Sly is being targeted:

When police spoke to the girl, she described the alleged assault to them.
She said she was staying at the Las Vegas Hilton hotel with family friends during the time that Stallone was filming Over the Top at the same hotel.
She told police she was introduced to the actor by his cousin and that he had complimented her on her “build”.
“She indicated that if the sexual encounter had only been with Stallone, she would not pursue this matter, but due to the fact that Mike, the bodyguard became involved in the sexual incident, she didn’t know what she wanted to do,” the report says.
Stallone denied the allegations through his spokeswoman Michelle Bega, TMZ reports.
“This is a ridiculous, categorically false story,” she said.
“No one was ever aware of this story until it was published today, including Mr. Stallone. At no time was Mr. Stallone ever contacted by authorities or anyone else regarding this matter.
“It never happened.”

Dutchy · Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:48 am

Kiwirob wrote:
That said where's there's smoke there's fire and some women and now men probably do have legitimate cases to be addressed and the perps prosecuted if they haven't timed out.

That is quite dangerous, sometimes there is no fire and then debating it in public is quite something, because you will destroy someone, even if it turns out not the be true. We have the justice system for this, they can figure out what happened and if it is a criminal act or not.

DarkSnowyNight · Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:40 am

Tugger wrote:
One interesting aspect I read was regarding the Moore allegations, and the idea of older men pursuing younger girls. It is not that unusual for a guy to date and be with and date and have sex with a girl/woman four or five years his junior. Even wider age ranges are of course fine when we are talking about adults but this also occurs in "questionable" age ranges: The most common adults/college students dating high school students, this often happens as two students dating in school and one graduates. So I get it. But it is an issue in many ways if you look at it in black and white. Another version is "child brides" kids marrying adults. It is allowed in many states, usually with eh approval of the parents and/or the courts. This story on it does me think it should probably be just now allowed and while I also understand there are some valid reasons for it it probably does deserve a lot closer scrutiny (not that I have actually looked into it much). Anyway...
Tugg

Half plus seven, with a hard floor at eighteen. Anything under that is a no-go.

einsteinboricua wrote:

That being said, I am concerned, not for the acts, because that's wrong and should never be condoned. I'm concerned about the potential for abuse that this brings out.

Granted, the actions we've heard from Moore and others are sexual advancements and/or actual groping. And in the case of some, there's evidence or circumstantial evidence to point to it.

Two things:
1. I agree with a lot of the folks asking why it took some of them decades to bring this out to light. Even that soldier on deployment who had concrete evidence of Al Franken...why did she allow this event to go by unreported all this time? This could imply that there are many, many, many more cases that are yet unreported. Now, granted, the trauma and the fear of speaking out is understandable, but I still find it hard two believe that it eats you up inside without the desire to reveal it not for revenge, but to advocate and shine a light on women's rights. That's not to say I don't believe it when several claims, made by people that are strangers to each other, all point in the same direction.

2. What does this mean for men in what has become a politically-correct society? I remember a few years ago, we had a pizza party at work and we were marveling at how good the pizza was (from Papa John's actually). And I was recalling the first time I tasted Papa John's pizza and how it reminded me of an episode of Family Guy where Stewie eats some meatloaf and remarks how it tastes "orgasmic". Within the hour, a coworker's husband (who also worked at the company) IM'ed me to ask me to refrain from sexual talk around his wife because she felt uncomfortable. No actual sexual advance, only referencing an episode from a series that is not even "R"...and she felt uncomfortable.

I thankfully don't work at that site anymore and I was ready to go to HR if the husband or coworker threatened action since:
1. It wasn't any of his business.
2. There was absolutely nothing that implied being improper towards her (and the fact that she laughed it off only made the IM from the husband more surprising).

I pretty much avoided walking by said coworker's area and relegated any interaction to a quick work discussion (not even a "Hello" or "Good bye").

But I mention this event as an example of how things could have gone south in an instant...over something that was purely innocent (in the sense of not meaning for it to be considered as an advance). And to this day I wonder if I were to run for national office, would she come out and say "he sexually harassed me at work"? Is it up to me to prove my innocence or is it up to her to prove her claim?

The answer to that last question (in all these cases) will depend on your view of the accused: if you hate the accused, you'll believe her claim; if you idolize the accused, then she has to prove her case.

Look no further than Roy Moore supporters who are asking the ladies to take a polygraph while Roy Moore haters are taking the claims at face value.

I have neither anything to hide not a lot of concern for those what do. Nevertheless, I share your concerns. I'm not going to be specific, but a quick cruise through Facebook is enough to illustrate that there all kinds of scumbags who would literally sell their friends for their fifteen minutes.

I feel that this will eventually create a situation where it actually becomes very difficult for real victims to be taken as seriously as they deserve. I don't think we're to that point, but we will be.

As for your concerns, an opponent would have to be really, really good to be able to dig that far. You're probably fine.
Although I wouldn't be. I'd have called that motherfucker right out. His oversensitive nature should never be made your problem.

Dutchy wrote:
I think it is good to have an open debate about it. Why not? One can make a harmless comment which could be conceived as something sexual and made one feel uncomfortable. So ok, let's talk about it, let's see were the norm lies.

I agree. A big part of the problem is that apart from criminal acts, there is no established norm. We really do owe it to ourselves as a society to determine that it's ok at times to push back against people when they are far too comfortable with their own sensitivity.

But we also need to take a look things that are still considered normal and really are, in fact, acts of harassment.

WIederling · Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:10 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
"he sexually harassed me at work"? Is it up to me to prove my innocence or is it up to her to prove her claim?

This is turning into a weaponized lever.

Action happens just on the say so. See that other British minister getting chopped.
Which once was the definition of "witch hunt".

If you have real grievance it must go to court. That is the way our society works.
( and overcomes most of the problems stemming from people using accusation effectively
for their own nefarious purposes.)

Most dangerous aspect is that beginning with harmless undirected remarks
( like that "orgasmic" example) or actions anything gets lumped in with "real rape".

tommy1808 · Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:23 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Look no further than Roy Moore supporters who are asking the ladies to take a polygraph while Roy Moore haters are taking the claims at face value.

given the excellent work that the WP did, it is totally sensible to believe the women. That is why even Sessions sees no reason to not believe the Women over Moore.

best regards
Thomas

einsteinboricua · Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Look no further than Roy Moore supporters who are asking the ladies to take a polygraph while Roy Moore haters are taking the claims at face value.

given the excellent work that the WP did, it is totally sensible to believe the women. That is why even Sessions sees no reason to not believe the Women over Moore.

best regards
Thomas

Oh I agree. I believe the women, and not because I dislike Moore.

But I have to be cautious because this could become the new version of "the boy that cried wolf" with no clear win situation, particularly for men. If we're accused, we're assumed guilty right off the bat; and if we manage to turn the tide and show that we're innocent, then we're just benefiting from a society that favors men over women.

I've even stopped interacting with my two female coworkers out of fear that anything I say could be perceived differently and get me a call from HR.

Revelation · Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:52 pm

I shouted out, "Who killed the Kennedys?", when after all, it was you and me...

I pity the people who'll have to judge between abuse of power versus normal human sexual tension playing itself out.

Yes, with Weinstein we see him applying the same move for decades and getting away with it, and that is finally being dealt with.

But where will the line be drawn?

No fraternization between co-workers unless there is no power gradient?

Who knows?

einsteinboricua wrote:
I've even stopped interacting with my two female coworkers out of fear that anything I say could be perceived differently and get me a call from HR.

Not surprised by this at all. There's a new female employee at my workplace who is younger than most of her male co-workers and I see them fawning over her and I can see it not ending well. Personally, I'd just keep my distance. The risk is not worth the reward.

mbmbos · Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:29 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I still wouldn't be surprised if a lot of women who did use what they've got to get ahead are now jumping on the he made me do it bandwagon, how else does one explain the stellar careers of some very pedestrian and no talent actresses.

Wow. Just wow. Did you actually say this? You have no evidence that women use their sex to get ahead but you will go ahead and speculate anyway.

This is precisely what women face after being sexually assaulted; the veracity of their story is immediately questioned and they are routinely demonized. Their entire careers are examined for anything that can remotely be construed as sexual manipulation. Their manner and dress is critiqued. All because some men have a narrative in their head of the femme fatale, the woman who manipulates them with their bodies.

There are plenty of no talent actors. Male actors. Did they use their sex to get to the top too? Has it dawned on you the media often hires brain dead actors and spokespeople because of their looks? That doesn't mean they sleep their way to the top.

This type of narrative feeds into the misogyny.

Aesma · Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:53 pm

I used to go out with a teen, when I was an older teen. Nothing illegal where I am, but her parents weren't happy about it. I know there is a police report with my name on it somewhere. Since the police told them it wasn't going anywhere, I only know indirectly, nobody ever contacted me, no investigation was done, so my side of the story is not in a police report.

If I was running for an important office there is no doubt I would pay a lawyer to make that disappear. In fact there is no need for a lawyer or to pay, by law it should have already disappeared, but I'm sure it still exists.

DIRECTFLT · Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:10 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
But I have to be cautious because this could become the new version of "the boy that cried wolf" with no clear win situation, particularly for men. If we're accused, we're assumed guilty right off the bat; and if we manage to turn the tide and show that we're innocent, then we're just benefiting from a society that favors men over women.

I've even stopped interacting with my two female coworkers out of fear that anything I say could be perceived differently and get me a call from HR.

Have you ever received Sexual Harassment Training??

I recall receiving extensive Sexual Harassment Training as part of the companie's Supervisor Training Program.

In that training, it was clearly spelled out what was and what was not considered Sexual Harassment.

The KEY thing was, that for verbal Sexual Harassment, or anything short of a legal sexual assault, the person that feels uncomfortable about it, has the obligation to tell the other person that what they're saying or doing makes them feel uncomfortable, and to not do that again. Take notes of what the other person did, when you said that, and who else was present when you said that. The standard who, what, when, where.

Then if it keeps up, you then go to HR to resolve, with your specific facts.

The idea is that for 1st offenses, of the verbal kind, or anything short of a legal sexual assault, that they should be handled that way vs. having every 1st offense being an HR matter.

Revelation · Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:24 pm

It's all a big mess. We don't stop becoming mammals when we go to work. I met my former wife at work. Clearly she was using the workplace along with every other venue available to her to evaluate potential husbands. That's just life. In my 20s when I was single I've had fellow co-workers hit on me and have spent the night with them and it's clear they were using work to find partners but there was no power gradient so it wasn't abuse IMHO. One of my other non-work ex-GFs told me the entire story of how she hooked up with her boss, but it boiled down to the fact that she was horny, not that she was using sex to get ahead, but of course everyone who knew about it thought otherwise. If things had turned out badly, she easily could have filed abuse claims against him since they hooked up at a motel and there was an evidence trail, but it never came to that. As I said, it's all a big mess.

SheikhDjibouti · Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I still wouldn't be surprised if a lot of women who did use what they've got to get ahead are now jumping on the he made me do it bandwagon, how else does one explain the stellar careers of some very pedestrian and no talent actresses.

mbmbos wrote:
Wow. Just wow. Did you actually say this? You have no evidence that women use their sex to get ahead but you will go ahead and speculate anyway.

Wow. Just wow. Did you actually say what you said? There is plenty of evidence that women use their sex to get ahead, as in women themselves 'fessing up to it (when it suits them).

This is precisely what women face after being sexually assaulted; the veracity of their story is immediately questioned

Exactly as it should be ! And exactly as it is for any other type of offence.
BTW you forgot to insert "allegedly" in there; as in "what women face after allegedly being sexually assaulted. Some cases will be proven true, and some cases will be found to be false. And some will come under the heading of "we will never know for sure".

....and they are routinely demonized. Their entire careers are examined for anything that can remotely be construed as sexual manipulation. Their manner and dress is critiqued.

I would agree that all of those things are WRONG, obviously.

There are plenty of no talent actors. Male actors. Did they use their sex to get to the top too?

Er, yes. And the fact that you cannot imagine that worries me.

mbmbos wrote:
This type of narrative feeds into the misogyny.

Congratulations; you get today's award; Godwin's Law; "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches"
Except in this case it was inevitable that somebody would bring up the "M" word.
e.g. "I don't agree with what you are saying, therefore you must be a misogynist"
You get the prize.

SheikhDjibouti · Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's all a big mess. We don't stop becoming mammals when we go to work. I met my former wife at work. Clearly she was using the workplace along with every other venue available to her to evaluate potential husbands. That's just life. In my 20s when I was single I've had fellow co-workers hit on me and have spent the night with them and it's clear they were using work to find partners but there was no power gradient so it wasn't abuse IMHO. One of my other non-work ex-GFs told me the entire story of how she hooked up with her boss, but it boiled down to the fact that she was horny, not that she was using sex to get ahead, but of course everyone who knew about it thought otherwise. If things had turned out badly, she easily could have filed abuse claims against him since they hooked up at a motel and there was an evidence trail, but it never came to that. As I said, it's all a big mess.

If anyone can imagine an age before the internet, I recall a survey that found that 80% of all relationships started from initial meetings at a workplace.
Sometimes it was fellow employees, in the same or different departments, on similar or different pay scales. Sometimes it was a receptionist flirting with a courier, where there was absolutely no conflict of interest.
And yes, I met my other half at work too. And before that I flirted with several others where I worked. And they flirted right back at me. And at others. In fact it was like Fleetwood Mac; over time pretty much everybody had slept with everyone else at some point.

mbmbos · Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:34 pm

[quote="SheikhDjibouti"]Wow. Just wow. Did you actually say what you said? There is plenty of evidence that women use their sex to get ahead, as in women themselves 'fessing up to it (when it suits them).
[quote]

Then provide the evidence. Show me how said evidence stacks up against rape and sexual assault data.

After you can prove that, on a large scale, that women use their vaginas to extract money and status from men, after that I will stop using the misogyny claim.

Until then, misogyny is real as evidenced on this very thread. No Goodwin's Law required.

tommy1808 · Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:42 pm

mbmbos wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Wow. Just wow. Did you actually say what you said? There is plenty of evidence that women use their sex to get ahead, as in women themselves 'fessing up to it (when it suits them).

Then provide the evidence. Show me how said evidence stacks up against rape and sexual assault data.

After you can prove that, on a large scale, that women use their vaginas to extract money and status from men, after that I will stop using the misogyny claim.

Until then, misogyny is real as evidenced on this very thread. No Goodwin's Law required.

Even if such evidence would exist. There is also evidence that men rape and abuse women, that doesn´t make all men rapists.

And of course the argument is somewhat illogical right off the bat. If women use their bodies to get pay raises and promotions.... why is there a pay gap?

best regards
Thomas

einsteinboricua · Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:01 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
But I have to be cautious because this could become the new version of "the boy that cried wolf" with no clear win situation, particularly for men. If we're accused, we're assumed guilty right off the bat; and if we manage to turn the tide and show that we're innocent, then we're just benefiting from a society that favors men over women.

I've even stopped interacting with my two female coworkers out of fear that anything I say could be perceived differently and get me a call from HR.

Have you ever received Sexual Harassment Training??

I recall receiving extensive Sexual Harassment Training as part of the companie's Supervisor Training Program.

In that training, it was clearly spelled out what was and what was not considered Sexual Harassment.

The KEY thing was, that for verbal Sexual Harassment, or anything short of a legal sexual assault, the person that feels uncomfortable about it, has the obligation to tell the other person that what they're saying or doing makes them feel uncomfortable, and to not do that again. Take notes of what the other person did, when you said that, and who else was present when you said that. The standard who, what, when, where.

Then if it keeps up, you then go to HR to resolve, with your specific facts.

The idea is that for 1st offenses, of the verbal kind, or anything short of a legal sexual assault, that they should be handled that way vs. having every 1st offense being an HR matter.

With today's snowflake at-will society, anything can cross the line. And I say "snowflake at-will" because the same people who would report or confront you for it would otherwise laugh at a joke if it came from another person they liked. Kinda like how the finance folks on our floor hate loud conversations but are pretty loud themselves...

Our company has training in place, but it's not mandatory. A code of conduct signed every year implicitly covers that behavior.

mbmbos · Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:02 pm

"Even if such evidence would exist. There is also evidence that men rape and abuse women, that doesn´t make all men rapists."

Tommy1808, for some reason I'm unable to use Anet's quotation feature with this browser.

But to your comment, of course it doesn't make all men rapists. Where have I implied that? Where has anyone implied that? Sounds like a straw man to me - i.e., create an argument that is so silly it's easy to knock down.

Too often the default position is the woman must be lying, must be ginning for a big lawsuit payout, fame or fortune. This is ridiculous on its face and again, you will not find data showing waves of women making said accusations for advancement.

Any time an accusation is made for anything all claims must be examined. But here we have people already reaching a conclusion - i.e., women use their breasts and vaginas to trick men out of their wealth, their livelihood, their reputation. It's the go-to for far too many men who refuse to examine their own actions, who feel entitled to unfettered access to women.

seahawk · Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:28 pm

Men and Women use sex to gain an advantage, men and women use power to get sex.

That is one of the first things you learn in Sexual Harassment Training. The only difference is that male victims of female assault have a much harder time finding some one who cares.

Kiwirob · Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
That said where's there's smoke there's fire and some women and now men probably do have legitimate cases to be addressed and the perps prosecuted if they haven't timed out.

That is quite dangerous, sometimes there is no fire and then debating it in public is quite something, because you will destroy someone, even if it turns out not the be true. We have the justice system for this, they can figure out what happened and if it is a criminal act or not.

I’ve been down that road myself, many years ago I was acussed if stalking and harassing my ex girlfriend, arrested at work, spent a night in jail, all fun and games, she had a detailed diary of when I had committed these offences, but the stupid bitch didn’t account for my work at the time had a security entrance where we had a card and code, every time I was apparently stalking and harassing her I could prove I was at work. What really pissed me off is she wasn’t prosecuted for lying about it. Women make accusations and barely ever pay for it when they are proven false.

SheikhDjibouti · Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
There is also evidence that men rape and abuse women, that doesn´t make all men rapists.

Agreed. Clearly you understand the argument that "some" does not equal "all".

tommy1808 wrote:
If women use their bodies to get pay raises and promotions.... why is there a pay gap?

Can I introduce you to the concept that "some" does not equal "all"?

Hence some women use their bodies, and as a result there is a reduced pay gap, not no pay gap at all.

I do very bored with these "it-has-to-be-all-or-nothing" arguments.

tommy1808 · Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:08 pm

mbmbos wrote:
"Even if such evidence would exist. There is also evidence that men rape and abuse women, that doesn´t make all men rapists."

Tommy1808, for some reason I'm unable to use Anet's quotation feature with this browser.

But to your comment, of course it doesn't make all men rapists. Where have I implied that? Where has anyone implied that? Sounds like a straw man to me - i.e., create an argument that is so silly it's easy to knock down.

Misunderstanding, I was basically just agreeing with you. It doesn't matter that some women do that, and some certainly will, because I am pretty sure by far most women don't. Therfore that titbit doesn't even pertain to the reality of sexual harassment.

Re:quoting problems, you can always add the

[quote="mbmbos"].... [/quote]

manually.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I do very bored with these "it-has-to-be-all-or-nothing" arguments.

It is more the kind of if-it-is-some,-it-doesn't-matter-to-the-problem-at-hand sort of argument.

Best regards
Thomas

af773atmsp · Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:13 pm

A few years ago I would go to parties with friends almost every weekend. Numerous times I would witness groping. At that time I thought it was just playful. Thankfully I realized how bad it was and to never commit such acts. But what I find most shocking with these allegations and this thread is that people older than me and outside of college parties are doing this. I'll admit I'm still a virgin and horny as hell, but don't these people know about porn? Its free and legal (well, in the U.S. anyways). Sure you don't have a partner, but it beats having your career destroyed. Hearing these stories makes me want to just not talk to anyone at work; just go in, do work, and get out.

PhilBy · Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:17 pm

In some cultures marriage is permitted at a young (for us) age but consummation is illegal until the younger partner reaches the age of majority.
The UK has always ( modern history) allowed marriage at 16, When I was a student I was told that France allowed marriage at 15 for females and 18 for males. I've never checked though.
I remember reading a study published in the 80's or 90's that concluded that physiologically the ideal age for childbirth was between 15 and 17. After that ossification of the cartilaginous hip joints and neurological reaction to pain made the process more difficult.

Maybe cultural advancement is ahead of biological imperatives!

SheikhDjibouti · Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:24 pm

mbmbos wrote:
Then provide the evidence. Show me how said evidence stacks up against rape and sexual assault data.

Why should I? I simply countered your wild comment; a comment that you are not going to back up with any evidence. I'm not falling for that old trick.

mbmbos wrote:
After you can prove that, on a large scale, that women use their vaginas to extract money and status from men, after that I will stop using the misogyny claim.

Prove...on a large scale? Do be serious. That isn't what I stated at all.

You are another player who needs to understand the difference between "some" and "on a large scale"

The equivalent would be proving that crime exists only if you can find, on a large scale, criminals who will admit their guilt. Good luck with that !
Meanwhile, we all know that whilst a small fraction of criminals freely confess their guilt, we also know they are the tip of the iceberg.
I know a number of women who admit, privately, behind closed doors, that they use or have used sex to gain advantage. And it isn't rocket science to figure out they are the tip of the iceberg too. My wife is even more open about it than that, and would happily state it as fact on this forum. It's just so obvious.

Just scroll back to what seahawk wrote

Men and Women use sex to gain an advantage, men and women use power to get sex.

That is one of the first things you learn in Sexual Harassment Training.

And of course, you totally miss the point about Godwin's Law.

SheikhDjibouti · Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:31 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I do very bored with these "it-has-to-be-all-or-nothing" arguments.

tommy1808 wrote:
It is more the kind of if-it-is-some,-it-doesn't-matter-to-the-problem-at-hand sort of argument.

Nope, that's just another variation on it. You might need to think for a bit about why that is.

seb146 · Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:37 pm

So, Al Franken owned up to what he did and apologized. Also, there was a vote on tax cuts for the wealthy and gutting health care and taxes for the poor and middle class

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... was-coming

Right wing cheerleader Roger Stone says he knew the Franken story would break.

Revelation · Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:38 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
A few years ago I would go to parties with friends almost every weekend. Numerous times I would witness groping. At that time I thought it was just playful. Thankfully I realized how bad it was and to never commit such acts. But what I find most shocking with these allegations and this thread is that people older than me and outside of college parties are doing this. I'll admit I'm still a virgin and horny as hell, but don't these people know about porn? Its free and legal (well, in the U.S. anyways). Sure you don't have a partner, but it beats having your career destroyed. Hearing these stories makes me want to just not talk to anyone at work; just go in, do work, and get out.

Yes, acquiring the partner is where the complications come in. Some feel the gain is worth the pain, some don't. The younger you are, the easier to see the gain and the harder to see the pain, IMHO. That's the nice thing about being an adult, you can sort it out for yourself. It's also the awful thing about being an adult! It's hard to get that risk/reward balance right, but in the end, it's a big part of whether or not you'll feel your life is a success or not. I say that as someone who is closer to the end than the beginning, who doubts that he got it right.

Airstud · Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:25 pm

seb146 wrote:
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Trump
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Moore
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Wienstien
I did that and it was stupid and I apologize - Frankin

So, let's demonize Frankin and forgive Moore and Trump. That is what I am hearing.

Where??!??? Who the hell is demonizing Al Franken???

Okie · Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:49 pm

Airstud wrote:
Where??!??? Who the hell is demonizing Al Franken???

I guess the Special Victims Unit so thinks.

Come on Al Franken is right now in the middle of being groomed for the Franken/Waters ticket 2020.

Okie

BobPatterson · Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:56 pm

Okie wrote:
Come on Al Franken is right now in the middle of being groomed for the Franken/Waters ticket 2020.

LOL. I like your sense of humor. :-)

seb146 · Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:23 pm

Airstud wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Trump
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Moore
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Wienstien
I did that and it was stupid and I apologize - Frankin

So, let's demonize Frankin and forgive Moore and Trump. That is what I am hearing.

Where??!??? Who the hell is demonizing Al Franken???

The White House for one

http://www.businessinsider.com/al-frank ... rs-2017-11

Leeann Tweeden's BFF for another

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/11/16/s ... morgan-uso

Aesma · Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:41 pm

PhilBy wrote:
In some cultures marriage is permitted at a young (for us) age but consummation is illegal until the younger partner reaches the age of majority.
The UK has always ( modern history) allowed marriage at 16, When I was a student I was told that France allowed marriage at 15 for females and 18 for males. I've never checked though.

I won't go back in ancient history where a woman could be married very young, everywhere. Nowadays in France the age is 18, if both parents and a court agree it can be a bit younger, the only reason that will happen in practice is if the girl is pregnant, and the future father still in the picture and willing (so, pretty rare...).

DIRECTFLT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:33 am

seb146 wrote:
So, Al Franken owned up to what he did and apologized.

Yeah, that's the "story" that *all* of the MSM and even local news were repeating today.

But what was *not* parsed by any of the MSM today, was that Franken *has not* owned up to or admitted to, the forced tongue kiss that the victim is claiming. Details Details....

DIRECTFLT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:40 am

Airstud wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Trump
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Moore
I didn't do that! They are all lying! - Wienstien
I did that and it was stupid and I apologize - Frankin

So, let's demonize Frankin and forgive Moore and Trump. That is what I am hearing.

Where??!??? Who the hell is demonizing Al Franken???

A Friend, the Minnesota State Auditor Rebecca Otto (D) has called for Franken to resign.

As has Rep. Erin Murphy (D)

DIRECTFLT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:42 am

Florida Democratic Party leader resigns after report of 'creepy' behavior

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pol ... story.html

Florida Democratic Party chairman Stephen Bittel is stepping down after a report detailing a hostile and “creepy” work environment he created for women.

DIRECTFLT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:49 am

The NFL is investigating a claim by a female Uber driver that Tampa Bay QB, Jameis Winston grabbed her crotch for 3-5 seconds, as he rode in the passenger seat, when going through a fast food drive through in Scottsdale, Az.

Jameis has responded saying that I wasn't in the front seat and I didn't grab her crotch, thereby deflecting the blame to one of the other players in the car.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footb ... -1.3640069

DIRECTFLT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:53 am

Well, like the Dem story above, here's another story we've all hear before:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.3637784

A married Ohio representative who believes in a “natural marriage” between a man and woman stepped down after House leaders confronted him about “inappropriate behavior” with another male in his state office.

Rep. Wes Goodman resigned Tuesday after Speaker Cliff Rosenberger learned of the allegations against the Cardington Republican, who later confirmed them to be true, the Columbus Dispatch reported.

The interaction did not involve any Statehouse staff or legislators and no harassment complaints have been filed, Brad Miller, Rosenberger’s spokesman, added.

DIRECTFLT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:04 am

What Hillary Knew

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ew/546170/

Hillary must have looked at the facts about Juanita Broaddrick and decided to put them in the same locked box where she kept the truth of Bill’s consensual affairs. As a wife, she had every right to do that. But as a Democratic candidate for president—one whose historic campaign was largely centered on the glass ceiling and the rise of women—she had a Grand Canyon–size vulnerability, as she learned a year before the general election when she blithely tweeted out this corker: “Every survivor of sexual assault deserves to be heard, believed, and supported.”

Juanita Broaddrick’s account—now accepted not just by a vast right-wing conspiracy, but also by a gathering number of liberal writers—is of an attack as brutal and unambiguous as the worst of the alleged assaults by Harvey Weinstein.

seb146 · Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:50 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
What Hillary Knew

And your argument is out the window.

Oh, wait... she did run a child porn ring from the basement of a pizzeria, so...

seb146 · Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:52 am

I wonder if someone comes out and apologizes, like Al Frankin, but makes the announcement before anyone can accuse them? So, what if male celebrity X holds a press conference stating something like "Yes, I did this stupid thing, I have contacted the victim and apologized personally for this stupid thing I did...." What then? How would our reactions be?

Kiwirob · Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:18 am

mbmbos wrote:
Wow. Just wow. Did you actually say this? You have no evidence that women use their sex to get ahead but you will go ahead and speculate anyway.

Do you actually know any women? Here’s a couple of instances where women I know have used sex to get what they want.

1996 my flat mate had 4 tickets to Blur three were spoken for, one of the girls in the flat said she’d fuck him for the forth ticket. He accepted the offer, she got the ticket.

My assistant at work when she was 19 had a 32 year old male friend who used to take her on holidays, London, Paris, Canary Islands, and buy her stuff, she used him for his money, and slept with him for it, a typical gold digger. She still uses her looks today, she’s a milf and knows it.

One my dads friends was formally head of one of the large govt departments in NZ, she slept her way up the civil service ladder and into the top job.

Kiwirob · Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:24 am

af773atmsp wrote:
I'll admit I'm still a virgin and horny as hell, but don't these people know about porn? Its free and legal (well, in the U.S. anyways). Sure you don't have a partner, but it beats having your career destroyed. Hearing these stories makes me want to just not talk to anyone at work; just go in, do work, and get out.

I think you need a hooker, porn only goes so far, if you’re as horny as you claim to be a hooker will sort you out and grant the relief that you obviously need!

Siren · Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:23 am

I'm going to offer the perspective from someone who has actually been sexually assaulted. Twice in my life. Neither of these incidents were full fledged rape, but at the very least, there should have been some criminal charges that they could have been brought up on.

The first assault happened when I was 13. This was at school, in an empty classroom during lunch. It was cold, I went in to get my jacket. And as I was coming out, when another student... his name was Gary, blocked the exit. He was 6 inches, 17 years old, and about 100 pounds heavier. I had been friendly with him before, but he was a weird guy. UFOs, aliens abductions, Area 51, conspiracy, FEMA is a shadow government with concentration camps (yeah, that was going on in the 90s even), chemtrails, etc. I humored him and listened to his theories, which turned out to be a mistake because he had convinced himself that I was head over heels in love with him. He professed his love, how we were right for each other, and started advancing on me. I walked back until I was backed into the wall. And this his hands went straight for my boobs and vajayjay. At this point, my fight or flight response really kicked in, and fight was the only option. I punched and kicked back enough to make a hasty escape. And I immediately ran to report it to the staff. Wherein I was punished for being inside the building during lunch period... and Gary never faced any disciplinary action that I know of.

The second one is much more satisfying in its conclusion. There was a deli that I regularly visited for lunch - they made the best sandwiches to order. Artisan stuff. Not like a Subway - think of it as the Ritz Carlton of Subways. Anyway, I'm 18 at the time, in 2002. Waiting for my number to be called. I'm bored, and playing Snake on my Nokia. It was a very warm spring day - almost 90F/32C, and was wearing a knee length skirt and pretty conservative top, revealing little. And then I felt a hand suddenly, between my legs, trying to push inside. Fight or flight instantly triggered, I snapped around, and saw the assailant - a white dude in his 50s, wearing a suit, with a sh*t eating grin. And my fight or flight response still in control, my right fist clenched tightly, took aim at his nose, and smashed it. Hard and without warning. My fingers snapped and popped... his nose snapped. Blood started gushing out, and he fell backwards into the salad bar. He starts screaming bloody murder. "F**K! F**K! SHE BROKE MY NOSE! F**K! TISSUES! SOMEBODY GET ME TISSUES!" Naturally the police were called. I ended up in handcuffs in the back seat of the police cruiser because the video cameras didn't get a good view of him groping me, but they got an excellent video of me smashing his face in. Just as they're getting ready to take me away, a Supervisor showed up, and recognized the punched guy. Turns out he was a registered sex offender on parole. I was off the hook, and I got free drinks with my lunch every time from then o

Were these big events? No. But they had a big impact on me, as I learned about victim blaming, and the perceived lack of credibility that accusers face from the authorities. These issues are pervasive, and I'm very glad that it seems some sort of inflection point may have been reached - and we are seriously discussing it, and its effects. Not just on women. Men also face it. Women harass, too. I'm just glad we're at this point with society - having a serious discussion about this.

Siren · Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:47 am

af773atmsp wrote:
I'll admit I'm still a virgin and horny as hell, but don't these people know about porn? Its free and legal (well, in the U.S. anyways). Sure you don't have a partner, but it beats having your career destroyed. Hearing these stories makes me want to just not talk to anyone at work; just go in, do work, and get out.

Your career can easily be destroyed by porn if you're not careful. A number of years ago, I was working as the IT administrator for a small company. One day, the nightly backup failed. That happened from time to time so I didn't do anything - I figured it'll run again the next night. It had failed the second night in a row. So I knew something was broken. I dug into the logs, and found that the failure occurred in the company owner's drive. I logged into the server and decided to take a look... and found his 40 gigabyte pornography collection. This was in 2007, and our tape drive could hold 40 gigabytes at maximum. So, no wonder it was failing.

Imagine having to break the news to him that... ah, the reason your backups are failing is because of your... ahem.. collection, sir. And I did just that. And he looked white as a ghost, promptly removed the material, and asked me never to tell his wife.... If he wasn't the owner of the company, I suspect worse things for the employee.

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