petertenthije
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Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:22 am

From www.telegraph.co.uk, but also breaking on other channels:
Several loud explosions echoed across central Harare in the early hours of Wednesday after troops deployed on the streets of the capital and seized the state broadcaster.

The developments in the Zimbabwe capital fuelled speculation that a coup was under way against president Robert Mugabe, after the head of the armed forces threatened to "step in" over the sacking of an influential vice president.

Zimbabwe's ruling party accused General Constantine Chiwenga of treason over his comments, after the rare appearance of the military vehicles in Harare.

Reports from military sources in Harare said: “We are in control," without giving more detail.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... al-harare/
http://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/1249863/ ... babwe-over
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Tugger
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:33 am

I am mostly ambivalent. I feel for the Zimbabweans and think they are in a no-win situation.

The old bastard (Robert Mugabe) is a corrupt leader and is leading Zimbabwe to be a corrupt nation. So a coup might be a good thing. But to my knowledge the military is no less corrupt so that doesn't work either really. Finally those currently crying foul about the possible coup are with Zanu PF Youth (or something like that) who are aligned with Grace Mugabe who it appears is Robert Mugabe's choice for successor. He apparently removed the VP (whom the miiltary supports/supported) to give her a clear path to future leadership.

Basically Zimbabwe is screwed for a while.

Tugg
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Okie
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:26 am

Tugger wrote:
Basically Zimbabwe is screwed for a while.

No Zimbabwe has been screwed for quite a long while!!!

Another despot socialist dictator that has destroyed a fertile agricultural driven economy.
The reports I have seen indicate there is just nothing left to steal.

**********
In other news Venezuela is basically in financial default from the result of Chavez and Maduro socialist controls.
The question is will Putin buy the country of Venezuela and its oil for $60Billion to pay debt to creditors or will creditors start collecting the CDS insurance.
I would bet on Putin but who knows he might pay higher for Trillions in oil.
If he move ships in to Venezuelan harbors I would be skeptical of Putin's motives.


Okie
 
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Aesma
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:49 am

The state of these countries has not much to do with socialism, much more to do with authoritarian leaders who aren't able to run their countries, too occupied to enrich themselves or putting their friends and families in good positions (usually both).

What's really interesting is how that came to be, and usually it's caused by a previous situation where a minority of rich white dudes were controlling the country, to the detriment of everybody else. Do you take that into consideration and brand such countries "capitalist" with disdain in your voice, or does that only work one way ?
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PanHAM
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:59 am

Socialism produces authoritarian leaders simply bcause socialism cannot work in a liberal Society of choice. Socialism is based on corruption. Besides Zimbabwe, Venezuela is a currrent bad example of what happens when socialism takes over a Country. The first item that becomes scarce is toilet paper. Bitter irony for the People, exactly that happened in Venezuela. Regardless what the Name of the Country is, Liberation from an authoritarian Regime can only improve matters.
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Dutchy
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:06 am

Looks like a coup d'etat. But this probably will not change much for the Zimbabwean population. The Vice-president seems to get the presidency and he will probably be as corrupt as Mugabe. Such a shame, Mugabe started out as a freedom fighter, liberated his country from a repressive regime and ended up being more corrupt and repressive than the regime he replaced. Unfortunately, that seems to be a pattern in Africa. South Africa, for instance, seem to be heading the same way.
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PanHAM
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:15 am

Looks like Gucci Grace got kicked out of the Palace.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:21 am

If the game is up I can see Grace getting on the next plane to China to be close to her millions, with or without Robert.
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VSMUT
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:45 am

Okie wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Basically Zimbabwe is screwed for a while.

No Zimbabwe has been screwed for quite a long while!!!

Another despot socialist dictator that has destroyed a fertile agricultural driven economy.
The reports I have seen indicate there is just nothing left to steal.


Mugabe might have started out as a Socialist/Communist (and lets face it, he only claimed to be it because only Socialist Nordic countries and the Eastern Block supported him), but he took a very definite populist/nationalist right turn in the 90s. Last time I checked, Socialism wasn't about killing a minority of your population and seizing the land for your closest friends and family, leaving thousands of farmworkers out of work due to the incompetency of the before-mentioned friends and family.

The problem here is that none of them were really that democratic to start with. They just sided with whichever proxy that was willing to support them.

Dutchy wrote:
Unfortunately, that seems to be a pattern in Africa. South Africa, for instance, seem to be heading the same way.


Democratic traditions took almost a thousand years to develop here in Europe. Even the US has been struggling lately, and they have over 200 years of experience with it. It was naive to think that we could leave Africa in the space of a few decades and leave them with functional and lasting democratic systems.

It is worth noting the success stories though. Namibia, Botswana, Ghana and quite a few others are showing promise.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:31 am

Appears that Grace was allowed to leave the country by the army and has gone to Namibia, South Africa did not want her after the assult charge in August. Robert has spoken the SA prime minister, he is safe but confined to house. Harare airport seems to be business as usual.
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Dutchy
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:22 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Unfortunately, that seems to be a pattern in Africa. South Africa, for instance, seem to be heading the same way.


Democratic traditions took almost a thousand years to develop here in Europe. Even the US has been struggling lately, and they have over 200 years of experience with it. It was naive to think that we could leave Africa in the space of a few decades and leave them with functional and lasting democratic systems.

It is worth noting the success stories though. Namibia, Botswana, Ghana and quite a few others are showing promise.


Sure, it takes time and some countries show promise indeed. In the end I am optimistic.
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melpax
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:25 pm

A mate works for well-known upscale travel agent, and was only over there on a familiarisation trip a couple of weeks back. His photos on Facebook looked fantastic, Zimbabwe looked to be getting back on its feet tourism-wise, hoping this won't affect things too much :-(
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Siren
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:08 pm

I've had an affinity for Zimbabwe since I traveled there about 8 years ago - staying mostly in the Harare suburbs of Borrowdale and Mt. Pleasant. The country had a reputation for a total collapse of civilization at that point in time, but I found relatively well paved streets, functioning traffic lights, a reliable electric grid, reliable cell phone service, reliable internet, no problems obtaining the necessities - be it food or petrol. Had no problem finding a half decent sushi place, even...

Mugabe and ZANU-PF are a stain on an otherwise beautiful country of genuinely warm and wonderful people. In the 2008 elections, I thought we'd see a coup happen after Mugabe essentially ignored the results of the presidential election when he lost to Morgan Tsvangirai and his Movement for Democratic Change, the MDC, when he won the election by 6 points over Mugabe. A runoff was declared, which Tsvangirai boycotted and naturally Mugabe claimed victory with a stunning 85% victory. Of course when you're the only one on the ballot, 85% isn't that hard to reach.

Mugabe's policies have essentially, since he came to power, practiced a sort of reverse Apartheid. White land owners, farmers, and such had their property seized by the government, and then given to new owners - subdivided and subdivided again. With the original farmers essentially forced out, all the experience, knowledge, and capability to actually farm and grow crops was lost. The money to invest in equipment was driven out. And dividing parcels of land into smaller and smaller parcels results in farms that are too small to be economically mechanized - ie, all work must essentially be done by hand, which is incredibly inefficient. With mechanized farming, the yields go up 10-20 times.

If you do business in Zim, you are doing business with ZANU-PF and Mugabe's henchmen. You pay them. Just a cost of doing business out there...

Fingers are crossed that this ends with Mugabe announcing his retirement and that his Vice President will be succeeding him, with free democratic elections in the following month or two... We'll see what happens, won't we?
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Kiwirob
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Unfortunately, that seems to be a pattern in Africa. South Africa, for instance, seem to be heading the same way.


Democratic traditions took almost a thousand years to develop here in Europe. Even the US has been struggling lately, and they have over 200 years of experience with it. It was naive to think that we could leave Africa in the space of a few decades and leave them with functional and lasting democratic systems.

It is worth noting the success stories though. Namibia, Botswana, Ghana and quite a few others are showing promise.


Sure, it takes time and some countries show promise indeed. In the end I am optimistic.


Three countries out of how many? Zimbabwe did work well for a time, now Zambia was smart enough to take advantage of Zimbabwe’s dispossessed white farmers and have taken up where Zimbabwe left off. The turnaround in agricultural output has been staggering.

I wouldn’t call Namibia a success story there is a ruling elite who control the country, the vast majority of blacks live a subsistence lifestyle, most of the arable land and almost all the mineral resources are owned by non domiciles, the average black receives nothing.

I don’t believe there is any black ruled country in Africa which isn’t ready to go up in flames at a moments notice.

I can see South Africa heading towards a Zimbabwe like situation, being a white farmer in South Africa is a dangerous occupation, the murder rates are sky high. A Norwegian I work with is married to a coloured lady, she left, the ANC like coloured people about as much as they like white people, it’s not the country that Nelson Mandela dreamed it would become, his legacy has been chucked in the bin, his successors are greedy, corrupt and racist, they’re incompetent and can’t manage the economy.

One bonus with Mugabe gone a lot of the million or so Zimbabwean refugees might head back home, there’s been significant violence between these people and the South African black community, Zimbabweans will work for a lot less than South Africans blacks are prepared to work for.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:17 am

Was starting to lose hope I would ever see the old bastard get his comeuppance. I just hope North Korea's military was paying attention to see how it's done...

I have no expectations whatsoever that whoever will follow him will be any better. That doesn't mean, however, I cannot enjoy Karma, like laughing at videos of Khadaffi being dragged from a sewer-pipe and get a bayonet shoved up his ass while knowing things would only get worse from there (as turned out to be the case).
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VSMUT
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:56 am

Pyrex wrote:
Was starting to lose hope I would ever see the old bastard get his comeuppance. I just hope North Korea's military was paying attention to see how it's done...


Comparing Zimbabwe with North Korea is pointless. They have nothing in common. Kim Jong Un holds an iron grip on his country, bugs each and every building and runs a secret police. Mugabe isn't even close to any of those things, he is just a crook trying to ween as much money into his pockets as possible. Chances are, even he has to resort to bribing off officials in his own country from time to time.

Julius Nyerere was far more of a tyrant than Mugabe ever was (and probably did more harm to his country than Mugabe did to Zimbabwe), and he is considered a hero today in the west.


Kiwirob wrote:
Three countries out of how many? Zimbabwe did work well for a time, now Zambia was smart enough to take advantage of Zimbabwe’s dispossessed white farmers and have taken up where Zimbabwe left off. The turnaround in agricultural output has been staggering.

I wouldn’t call Namibia a success story there is a ruling elite who control the country, the vast majority of blacks live a subsistence lifestyle, most of the arable land and almost all the mineral resources are owned by non domiciles, the average black receives nothing.


Everything is relative. 20 years ago Rwanda was a bloodbath. Now they are a revolutionary technology hub.
 
bennett123
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:19 pm

No one is saying Nyerere was a saint.

However, he did stand down as President without the Army stepping in, leaving the country to enter its free market era — as imposed by structural adjustment under the IMF and World Bank – under the leadership of his hand-picked successor. Nyerere was also instrumental in putting Benjamin Mkapa (who was not in his party) in power, and is still recognized as the Father of the Nation

Yes, he did select his replacement, but he still remained vocal about the extent of corruption and corrupt officials during subsequent administration. Furthermore, he raised no objections when the sole party abandoned its monopoly of power.

Yes, he did leave Tanzania as one of the poorest, least developed, and most foreign aid-dependent countries in the world. However, he did much to foster social development in Tanzania during his time in office. At an international conference of the Arusha Declaration, his successor noted the social gains of his predecessor's time in office: an increase in life expectancy to 52 years, a reduction in infant mortality to 137 per thousand, 2600 dispensaries, 150 hospitals, a literacy rate of 85%, two universities with over 4500 students, and 3.7 million children enrolled in primary school.

I wonder how much of this Robert Mugabe will be able to match.

.
 
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metalinyoni
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:20 pm

Mugabe married Gucci Grace in 1996 and the cause of Zimbabwe's decline can be traced back to about the same time in 1998 when it got involved in the war in the Congo. Up to this point, things were OK, not great but OK. It was an intervention the Zimbabwean economy couldn't afford and by 2002 foreign aid to the country had dried up because the money was being spent on military hardware and associated spares and not on the development of Zim. Zimbabwe got involved in the war, despite the cost, because Mugabe and his generals (including Chiwenga and Mnangagwa - the architects of this coup) were offered access to huge swathes of riches. They have all profited significantly from this and still do.

I can only think that Mugabe was persuaded to do so by Gucci Grace. I don't think Bob would ever have been a great president but left to his own devices (or the influence of his first wife) he wouldn't have gotten involved in that war.

As a result, he couldn't make payments to the war veterans so he promised them the white-owned farms (the war of liberation was fought over the ownership of land - a very emotive issue in Zim). The white farmers then supported the MDC to reject the proposed constitutional changes that would have allowed Bob to take the farms without compensation. So he took them anyway. So, along with the destruction of the largest sector in the economy and the drying up for foreign aid in 2002 onwards, the economic issues really started to bite and it has been downhill since then.

Therefore you can trace the Zimbabwean economy falling out of bed to the time Grace crawled into Mugabe's bed. This doesn't take any of the responsibility away from Mugabe. He was president and he allowed his wife to exercise his executive authority.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole issue........
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:30 pm

Zimbabwe's issues are similar to Venezuela's issues:

Their main industry was shaken up by removing capable and knowledgeable people and replacing them with inexperienced folks. In Venezuela, the oil operations were nationalized but staffed with folks whose only job was to be party loyalists. In Zimbabwe, the same thing happened: white-owned farms were taken and given to blacks who knew nothing of farming.

As a result, their economies went into freefall. Venezuela was able to stay afloat longer due to high oil prices, but after the crash, it was no different than Zimbabwe.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:24 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42071488

Appears he has gone. No firm new on Grace yet, she won't be far from the money.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:13 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-42079584

Do not expect change anytime soon, so much groundwork to do to recover from the past. But hope is there and that is the building block of many a country.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
B777LRF
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Re: Coup d'etat in Zimbabwe?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:47 am

Meet the new boss, same as the old just more vicious and greedy.
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