jbflyguy84
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Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:58 am

So, after a long, arduous and completely unnecessary vote disguised as a Survey, the Australian Bureau of Statistics will announce the results at 10am Canberra time on 15NOV17 (2300 GMT).

All the polls are showing a victory for the Yes campaign, but it is not as strong as was hoped, so there is still chances for the No campaign and their MPs to use this a mandate to block legislation passing.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/gay-marriage/yes-campaign-increases-majority-new-poll-finds/news-story/78a4f476f417eeb3874cc028cbdbd4b7

I hope a strong Yes vote is the result forcing parliament to allow a free vote which was the agreement the PM made before the whole ridiculous process started.

Thoughts? If this fails, Australia is well and truly out in the cold as one of the last, if not the last, western, English speaking countries to allow marriage equality.
 
Ozair
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:15 am

jbflyguy84 wrote:
I hope a strong Yes vote is the result forcing parliament to allow a free vote which was the agreement the PM made before the whole ridiculous process started.

Thoughts? If this fails, Australia is well and truly out in the cold as one of the last, if not the last, western, English speaking countries to allow marriage equality.

I can't see the vote not going to yes and even if the poll was ahead for yes by just one vote it would go through the parliment.
 
jbflyguy84
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:13 am

Ozair wrote:
jbflyguy84 wrote:
I hope a strong Yes vote is the result forcing parliament to allow a free vote which was the agreement the PM made before the whole ridiculous process started.

Thoughts? If this fails, Australia is well and truly out in the cold as one of the last, if not the last, western, English speaking countries to allow marriage equality.

I can't see the vote not going to yes and even if the poll was ahead for yes by just one vote it would go through the parliment.


This is what I hope, but I just can't see it being so easy... The Nationals and some of the Liberals will do what they can to prevent this. I feel this could even cause an early election if Malcolm Turnbull fails here.
 
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RoySFlying
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:13 am

I certainly hope that the predicted majority in favour of same-sex couples being allowed to marry becomes established fact. It will prove how widespread the support is, whichever way the vote goes.

While the Prime Minister has stated that the Government will facilitate (note that does not mean support) debate of a bill if there is a Yes vote, the matter will be dropped if there is a No majority. Labor has come around to the position that you don't vote on human rights, so will introduce legislation within 100 days if returned at the next election. It remains to be seen whether it becomes necessary that Labor win for a bill to be introduced at a future date, or, based on the outcome, they change tack once more.

That the opponents continue to seek to either block it or allow "protected" discrimination was predictable. While the Attorney General in his interview mentioned that a plebiscite was blocked by Labor, the plebiscite would have had exactly the same outcome as the voluntary postal survey: Parliament would still have had to debate enabling legislation in a free vote. The plebiscite and the poll were simply attempts to delay.

The attempts to delay continue, with not one but three bills possibly being debated. While the Government might wish to legislate by Christmas, faction fighting within the LNP coalition might see the process extended into the new year. Senator Barnardi has gone further and called for any vote to be deferred until the "citizenship crisis" has been resolved, arguing that it is improper to vote on such an important matter when there might be strangers in the house.

Whatever happens tomorrow, those who are opposed to equality before the law won't go down without a fight. Ministers of Religion and religious organisations already enjoy wide rights to discriminate: the hard-line conservative right want to extend the right to discriminate to others.The demand that every baker, hotelier, car hire driver, dressmaker and flower seller should be allowed to discriminate against some on either "religious" or "conscientious" grounds, is just the opening shot in the next round of their campaign. Remember that to them, the survey was not just about same-sex marriage. It was about, in Tony Abbott's words, "stopping political correctness in its tracks."
When I was a boy the world was flat and now, some people still strive to keep it that way.
 
jbflyguy84
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:16 am

That's a really good analysis - much better than I could articulate - thank you!

As you mentioned, I also feel a done deal before Christmas is very long shot, every possible way to stop this will be thrown at the process by only a few people, but those people hold power in the way they are creating the majority for the Turnbull government, if that support was to change, then we can say goodbye to SSM for a while and hello to another election - at least that would give Shorten a chance rather than waiting to 2018/9 for the next federal election
 
Ozair
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:07 am

RoySFlying wrote:

Whatever happens tomorrow, those who are opposed to equality before the law won't go down without a fight. Ministers of Religion and religious organisations already enjoy wide rights to discriminate: the hard-line conservative right want to extend the right to discriminate to others.The demand that every baker, hotelier, car hire driver, dressmaker and flower seller should be allowed to discriminate against some on either "religious" or "conscientious" grounds, is just the opening shot in the next round of their campaign. Remember that to them, the survey was not just about same-sex marriage. It was about, in Tony Abbott's words, "stopping political correctness in its tracks."

I agree with the second part of your statement, the baker cake thing is absurd but I do not agree that there is religious discrimination. Whether you are for same sex marriage or not does not give anyone the right to force their beliefs on others. If a majority vote for same sex marriage then it is right that it passes into law but religious institutions have rightly been given the understanding that they can refuse to marry a same sex couple if that is against their moral principals.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:44 am

Ozair wrote:
If a majority vote for same sex marriage then it is right that it passes into law but religious institutions have rightly been given the understanding that they can refuse to marry a same sex couple if that is against their moral principals.


That is right, however, if you want to have tax exempt status you have to serve everyone on that society. Why would a gay couple pay for the tax exemptions that wouldn't wed them?

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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RoySFlying
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:53 am

Ozair wrote:
religious institutions have rightly been given the understanding that they can refuse to marry a same sex couple if that is against their moral principals.

Existing rights to discriminate extend beyond refusing to marry someone. Under the current Marriage Act, a minister, for example, may refuse to marry a divorcee or participate in multi-faith marriages. Religious organisations also have exemptions from anti-discrimination and equal opportunity laws. These vary by State but include such things as provision of housing, employment and education. So there is no need to extend "protection" to Ministers of Religion or religious organisations, as these protections are retained in Senator Smith's Bill.

The weakness of the religious conviction argument, as I see it, is that while those who object to treating same sex couples the same way and wish to refuse service on so-called moral grounds, they would be appalled at any suggestion that others should discriminate against them on the same grounds.

And where do you draw the line? If one can refuse service or employment to people on the grounds that they wish to marry in a manner that one personally finds distasteful, why can't one refuse service or employment to women because a religion says a woman should be at home and not mixing with men who are unrelated? Could I put up a sign saying that I refuse to sell goods to or employ someone who is a Muslim or Jew because they worship a false god? If not, why not? Isn't that violating the principal of religious freedom?

In Western Australia we already have the absurd situation where a private religious organisation dictates to the State Government what services it will provide in a State-owned, taxpayer-funded hospital. Due to a sloppy contract, St John of God not only dictates what services it will provide, it prevents others from providing the services within the hospital that it doesn't wish to provide. Quite clearly, SJOG believe that they have "the right to force their beliefs on others."

While I accept that people should be free from persecution on the grounds of their religion, I don't believe that people who profess to be religious should be exempt from laws that apply to the rest of the community.
When I was a boy the world was flat and now, some people still strive to keep it that way.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
If a majority vote for same sex marriage then it is right that it passes into law but religious institutions have rightly been given the understanding that they can refuse to marry a same sex couple if that is against their moral principals.


That is right, however, if you want to have tax exempt status you have to serve everyone on that society. Why would a gay couple pay for the tax exemptions that wouldn't wed them?

There are many kinds of tax exemptions.

Why should renters "pay for" tax exemptions for home buyers?

Why should atheists "pay for" tax exemptions for religious institutions?

Why should individuals and businesses "pay for" tax exemptions granted to corporations to entice them into locating within a particular state, county or city?

When governments (the people) decide to exclude from the tax base certain groups or activities they do so because there is an implied "public good" or benefit to be realized by all the people.

In reality, the expected benefits might not be realized, but that is another matter.

Even "White Supremacy" groups can be tax exempt as "educational" institutions:

http://www.9news.com/news/local/verify/ ... /465210606

The world is a complicated place. There are lots of tax exempt groups that I wish didn't exist (or were not tax exempt).
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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RetroRoo
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:32 pm

Fingers crossed, avgays. :kiss2:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:09 pm

Never got this, why would you be against this? If you are against guy marriage, simple solution, don't marry someone of the same sex, problem solved.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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RoySFlying
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:31 pm

Results are in.

Australia has voted Yes. 7.82 million or 61.6% in favour. 4.87 million or 38% voted No. The response rate was 79.5%, which is higher than both the US Presidential Election and the Brexit Referendum participation rates.

All States and Territories voted Yes. The lowest result was New South Wales at 58%. Only 17 electorates voted No.

Now it is up to the politicians to act to effect the popular wish. Perhaps the Prime Minister will rediscover his spine and provide some leadership.
When I was a boy the world was flat and now, some people still strive to keep it that way.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:18 am

Add another country to the list of places I'd move to...even though the wildlife there wants to kill you.

Congrats Australia. Hoping the MPs end up approving the law.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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VapourTrails
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:48 am

RoySFlying wrote:
I certainly hope that the predicted majority in favour of same-sex couples being allowed to marry becomes established fact. It will prove how widespread the support is, whichever way the vote goes.


RoySFlying wrote:
Results are in. Australia has voted Yes. 7.82 million or 61.6% in favour. 4.87 million or 38% voted No. The response rate was 79.5%, which is higher than both the US Presidential Election and the Brexit Referendum participation rates. All States and Territories voted Yes. The lowest result was New South Wales at 58%. Only 17 electorates voted No.


Really happy for the result today. Although it does not effect me personally, I voted YES as I strongly believe in equal rights - and it is about time we caught up and got with the program on this issue. Was thinking about the social change, just in my lifetime - and growing up in Tasmania, and this is a memorable and historic day moving forward for sure. With regard to the voter turnout, do you think this was partly due to the fact that we are just used to voting by law anyhow..

einsteinboricua wrote:
Add another country to the list of places I'd move to...even though the wildlife there wants to kill you. Congrats Australia. Hoping the MPs end up approving the law.


Yeah, me too. By the end of 2017.
Time now to spread your wings, to take to flight, the life endeavour - Savage Garden
 
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cpd
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:58 am

RoySFlying wrote:
Results are in.

Australia has voted Yes. 7.82 million or 61.6% in favour. 4.87 million or 38% voted No. The response rate was 79.5%, which is higher than both the US Presidential Election and the Brexit Referendum participation rates.

All States and Territories voted Yes. The lowest result was New South Wales at 58%. Only 17 electorates voted No.

Now it is up to the politicians to act to effect the popular wish. Perhaps the Prime Minister will rediscover his spine and provide some leadership.


Good luck with that. The vote was intended to derail the issue and get a "no" result. But this didn't happen. Instead, a resounding "yes" happened. Even with that, you are still getting some MPs who are bitterly against the result. What happened to democracy?
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:59 am

Yeah, me too. By the end of 2017.

I'd vote for that myself. :yes:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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RoySFlying
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:30 am

VapourTrails wrote:
With regard to the voter turnout, do you think this was partly due to the fact that we are just used to voting by law anyhow..


In part yes. But I also think that for many it was an important decision in which they wanted a say. The turnout was high partly for that reason. There is always a minority who don't vote in elections, for various reasons.

In this non-compulsory survey, the non- participation rate was a little more than twice as high as at the last election. In Western Australia, we have had postal voting in local authority elections for a few years. At those, the response rate is usually lower. I guess a lot of people rate the right to marry higher than what colour lids the recycling bins have. :smile:
When I was a boy the world was flat and now, some people still strive to keep it that way.
 
jbflyguy84
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:16 am

This was wonderful news to wake up to in the Middle East... I haven't read broadly the commentary yet but I am surprised that the Yes vote was not higher, I was expecting ca.70%.

i did have to laugh at the point that one of the highest 'yes' electorates was former PM Tony Abbott's who has been one of the loudest faces of the No side.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:19 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Why should renters "pay for" tax exemptions for home buyers?


All tax payers can in principle buy homes.

Why should atheists "pay for" tax exemptions for religious institutions?


I haven´t met a religious institution yet i wasn´t welcome in, in fact i like to go to churches, temples and alike, even it is just for architecture, art and music. The moment they put an "No Athesist/Whateverreligiontheydontlike" sign on the door, they should lose it too.

Why should individuals and businesses "pay for" tax exemptions granted to corporations to entice them into locating within a particular state, county or city?


They shouldn´t, and in most countries that is considered an illegal subsidy anyways

or benefit to be realized by all the people.


emphasis mine. Because those benefit are in principle available to all people

Even "White Supremacy" groups can be tax exempt as "educational" institutions:

http://www.9news.com/news/local/verify/ ... /465210606


As long as they operate within the confines of the law, i don´t see why they could not, in principle, be tax exempt. Of course if they start turning people down because they are black or jews or whoever else they have an inferiority complex towards, they should of course lose that status if it is in any way systematical.

The world is a complicated place. There are lots of tax exempt groups that I wish didn't exist (or were not tax exempt).


I guess it is well established that i think Religion, and therefore churches, are evil regardless of how well they may mean to be, so i certainly wish they didn´t exist. I still don´t want them to lose their tax exempt status on whatever charitable work they do just because i don´t like them.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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RetroRoo
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:35 pm

How absolutely wonderful, it's a glorious day here in Australia. So much love and colour everywhere.
Qantas had been an advocate for many years, and with CEO Alan Joyce personally donating $1m to the Yes campaign. A glimpse of the nation we're becoming.


Image
 
stlgph
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Re: Australian Same Sex Marriage Survey Results Annoucement

Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:52 pm

Well, Sydney Mardi Gras in 2018 is going to be a lot more fun than before.

I will either end up a) bleeding in a few places, b) having major burns when i take a leak, c) married, d) in rehab, e) all of the above.
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