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BobPatterson
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A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:43 am

Article in Washington Post:

"In shadow of Germany’s climate conference, a village disappears to make way for coal"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 2e28989a22

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... fa77342baa

https://ejatlas.org/conflict/lignite-mi ... th-germany

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... d_the.html

Discusses implications for Germany meeting climate change objectives

Is this seen by Eco-Green folks as a big deal in Germany/Europe?
Last edited by BobPatterson on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:45 am

The link would not open unless I paid one dollar.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:53 am

WarRI1 wrote:
The link would not open unless I paid one dollar.


Try the new, 2nd link above. Maybe that one will work for you.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:09 am

That is much better and really startling if you care about the environment. Is Trump a consultant on this? :eek: One has to wonder what will replace the billions of tons of coal removed. Surely there will be an immense shortfall of fill when completed. It looks like the people are rather Blase about the project there according to what I read. Here, they have removed whole mountains mining coal, but that area looks rather flat to start.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
tommy1808
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:50 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Is this seen by Eco-Green folks as a big deal in Germany/Europe?


It is a big deal. It also shows the downside of having investment protection treaties in place. Lignite open pit mining and burning for power is a very long term investment, and shutting them down may come with a rather large payment towards the owners of those lignite burning plants.......

Despite leaving behind rather nice landscapes ones they are done, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_Lake_District , support for lignite burning in the long run has just 6% support even in Merkels party, with about 80% of the population being in favor of completely shutting that down by 2030

No one is saying it out loud, but i wouldn´t be surprised if compensating them for expropriating their power plants until their licenses are up is less efficient in reducing the carbon footprint per buck that putting that money in Solar/Wind/Biogas and geothermal and shut them down later.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:06 am

WarRI1 wrote:
That is much better and really startling if you care about the environment. Is Trump a consultant on this? :eek: One has to wonder what will replace the billions of tons of coal removed. Surely there will be an immense shortfall of fill when completed. It looks like the people are rather Blase about the project there according to what I read. Here, they have removed whole mountains mining coal, but that area looks rather flat to start.


Usually some kind of lake is formed:

The link below gives you some pictures: https://www.blausteinsee.com/vom-tageba ... ngsgebiet/
 
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Aesma
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:21 am

In France this has been shown for some years. In my opinion it's one of the reasons there isn't much appetite for shutting down nuclear power plants, here.

Then there is also the horrid mountaintop removal mining that happens in the US and was shown in the movie "Home" in 2009. That's when I discovered that coal was not just something you got by risking your life underground.

"Ironically" if there was a similar reason to remove a village in France it could probably happen with less drama, as villages are even more empty in France than they are in Germany.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
Usually some kind of lake is formed:

The link below gives you some pictures: https://www.blausteinsee.com/vom-tageba ... ngsgebiet/


Lots of places have been "vanished" or moved:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_abg ... rtschaften

First use of Bucket-wheel excavators for lignite open pit mining started around 1895
( machinery used for excavating the Kaiser's "Kiel Canal" )

Beginning in the 70ties land restoration became an increasingly important followup.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:02 pm

Like with all these kind of activities, no reason to demolish the landscape like this.

"You don’t have to dig far to find it, and given the low price of carbon under Europe’s emissions trading system, there is little financial cost to burning it."

So bring the price of the ETS to a real level so that these practices are uneconomical.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:06 pm

And then run out of electricity or import Gas or Coal from countries which way worse levels of environmental protection. This practice will end, but closing those plants and the atomic reactors at the same time, simply is not possible - nor economically or environmentally sensible.
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 pm

seahawk wrote:
And then run out of electricity or import Gas or Coal from countries which way worse levels of environmental protection. This practice will end, but closing those plants and the atomic reactors at the same time, simply is not possible - nor economically or environmentally sensible.


They should have demoted coal over nuclear.
Nuclear is much cleaner and running those power stations for another couple of years doesn't add much to risk and problems.
IMHO: if things progress as in the last years we'll have the next run of "the dark ages" before they've found a final solution for
nuclear waste disposal ( my preferred solution: one big dump and place the anti nuclear crowds to dance around it).
Murphy is an optimist
 
JJJ
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:13 pm

WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
And then run out of electricity or import Gas or Coal from countries which way worse levels of environmental protection. This practice will end, but closing those plants and the atomic reactors at the same time, simply is not possible - nor economically or environmentally sensible.


They should have demoted coal over nuclear.
Nuclear is much cleaner and running those power stations for another couple of years doesn't add much to risk and problems.
IMHO: if things progress as in the last years we'll have the next run of "the dark ages" before they've found a final solution for
nuclear waste disposal


It might be cleaner now, but down the line the costs mount up. You're dumping hundreds of years of toxic waste management costs on future generations.
 
tommy1808
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:48 pm

JJJ wrote:
It might be cleaner now, but down the line the costs mount up. You're dumping hundreds of years of toxic waste management costs on future generations.


Coal ash isn´t exactly free of radioactive material and emits quite a bit more radiation than a working (!) nuclear power plant, and that is uranium and thorium, so stuff for the long run that is either the same toxic waster problem than a nuke plant, or neatly dumped into the landscape. Per KWh a coal fired plant is about two orders of magnitude more radioactive as a nuclear power plant.

This side of the worst case scenario, i.e. no rapid disassembly of the uranium pile, Nuclear power plants are totally fine. It is more about absolute risk and is it worth it.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:52 pm

JJJ wrote:
It might be cleaner now, but down the line the costs mount up. You're dumping hundreds of years of toxic waste management costs on future generations.


You don't change that via longer running nuclear power stations. Runing them creates much less waste than the final removal.

Transmutation ( instead of piling the shit in unsuitable places ) is a much more interesting solution to nuclear waste
but our tree huggers go ballistic if you even mention research in that direction.
( remember using up Plutonium stockpiles via use in MOX fuel mixtures was defamed as "Plutonium Fabrik".
instead of removal by fission we have presence by stockpiling a PITA though the isotope is not weaponizable.)

The existing Greenies are a religion and religions are never able to provide solutions.
Murphy is an optimist
 
JJJ
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:09 pm

WIederling wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It might be cleaner now, but down the line the costs mount up. You're dumping hundreds of years of toxic waste management costs on future generations.


You don't change that via longer running nuclear power stations. Runing them creates much less waste than the final removal.


That's a sunk cost fallacy. At some point you will have to remove them. Doesn't matter if that's now or in 60 years time.

I'm no greenie, but I'm an economist and if getting a benefit from something now comes with incurring costs hundreds or even thousands of years from now it doesn't make economic sense. You're just kicking the ball to the next generation.
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:23 pm

JJJ wrote:
WIederling wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It might be cleaner now, but down the line the costs mount up. You're dumping hundreds of years of toxic waste management costs on future generations.


You don't change that via longer running nuclear power stations. Runing them creates much less waste than the final removal.


That's a sunk cost fallacy. At some point you will have to remove them. Doesn't matter if that's now or in 60 years time.

I'm no greenie, but I'm an economist and if getting a benefit from something now comes with incurring costs hundreds or even thousands of years from now it doesn't make economic sense. You're just kicking the ball to the next generation.


Wrong view imho.

you have a constant relatively small accumulation of waste from running the plants. you have a humungous amount of waste from disasssembly of those same power stations.
Waste disposal is currently more of a principal problem ( up and down the country it is all NIMBYs clamoring "not here" )
A solution is more or less independent of waste volume.

The waste issue won't change a tiny little bit from continuing to run those plants. ( Under the assumption that it is a MultiMillenium job
changing the start date by a decade makes no difference at all. Changing the waste volume by a couple of percent neither.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:53 pm

JJJ wrote:
WIederling wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It might be cleaner now, but down the line the costs mount up. You're dumping hundreds of years of toxic waste management costs on future generations.


You don't change that via longer running nuclear power stations. Runing them creates much less waste than the final removal.


That's a sunk cost fallacy. At some point you will have to remove them. Doesn't matter if that's now or in 60 years time.

I'm no greenie, but I'm an economist and if getting a benefit from something now comes with incurring costs hundreds or even thousands of years from now it doesn't make economic sense. You're just kicking the ball to the next generation.


At some point robots will be able to do many things, including building robots, then there is no cost.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:51 pm

WIederling wrote:
you have a constant relatively small accumulation of waste from running the plants. you have a humungous amount of waste from disasssembly of those same power stations.
Waste disposal is currently more of a principal problem ( up and down the country it is all NIMBYs clamoring "not here" )
A solution is more or less independent of waste volume.

The waste issue won't change a tiny little bit from continuing to run those plants. ( Under the assumption that it is a MultiMillenium job
changing the start date by a decade makes no difference at all. Changing the waste volume by a couple of percent neither.

I wonder to what extent, if any, there has been consideration of using the open pits as waste disposal sites prior to capping the waste and sealing the future lake bottom.

It seems to me that all of the coal ash and a vast amount of rubble from decommissioned structures could be accommodated.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:31 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
It seems to me that all of the coal ash and a vast amount of rubble from decommissioned structures could be accommodated.


For uncontaminated wastes that is the way things go. non coal from one active mining field "taubes Gestein" is dumped into those recently closed.
Still the remaining holes are rather large.
You don't want to dump environmental hazards into those holes as there is no way to keep them away from ground water.

The ash is not waste but used for building materials.
Same for the gypsum that results from washing out sulfur oxides from the waste gases.
Overall coal power stations are a lot less dirty than they are made out to be.

Major downside for lignite burning is the high energy investment into mining the stuff to begin with. 10..20%.
( Actually the same issue I see with LNG. similar percentage unrecoverable losses. compression losses
in pipelines are only half that and partly recoverable.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:01 am

I can't for the life of me understand why a country like Germany would ditch nuclear power. If anyone could make a success of it it's surely them?
 
salttee
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:05 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
I can't for the life of me understand why a country like Germany would ditch nuclear power. If anyone could make a success of it it's surely them?

Yea, them or the Japanese.

No, wait!
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:17 am

Japan was stupid enough to build sea walls that weren't high enough.

Yet at this power station, they built taller ones and it survived the 2011 quake intact despite being closer to the epicenter.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/ ... lear-plant
 
salttee
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:27 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Japan was stupid enough to build sea walls that weren't high enough.

Yet at this power station, they built taller ones and it survived the 2011 quake intact despite being closer to the epicenter.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/ ... lear-plant
It goes beyond that. I used to be a staunch supporter of Nuclear power until I had the experience of watching the Fukushima disaster unfurl in real time on a Physics forum attended by many in the nuke industry, including fuel designers and ex-plant managers, with many physicists and plant operators participating in the thread. There I saw the coverup that was in place from day one (it took several months for the extremely knowledgeable people posting in the forum to acknowledge what they all knew on the first day: there had been a (multiple) meltdown(s). The forum bounced people who asked too many questions regularly and to this day nobody anywhere in the industry will come forth with the factual claim that TEPCO has engaged in and continues to engage in flushing their problem into the Pacific Ocean.

As the coverup continues, they have lost me as a nuke supporter. F**k those people!

BTW that Guardian article is a puff piece.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:00 am

So the problem isn't nuclear power but incompetent people covering things up.
 
salttee
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:12 am

Right, in hypothetical form, nuke power is a wonderful solution. But in the real world, as it currently exists, humans cannot be trusted to operate nuke plants.

BTW
The problems faced by Fukushima had already been anticipated and addressed. The problem wasn't the low seawall, or even that the generators were located below gradient, the problem was that electricity was needed to cool the reactors at all in the event of a calamity. Designs are already drawn for a plant with a small lake located uphill of the reactor; in a worst case scenario, manual valves can be opened and enough water exists to cool the reactors for several weeks.

But the plant that was going to be built with that design was cancelled after Fukushima.
 
JJJ
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:23 am

WIederling wrote:
JJJ wrote:
WIederling wrote:

You don't change that via longer running nuclear power stations. Runing them creates much less waste than the final removal.


That's a sunk cost fallacy. At some point you will have to remove them. Doesn't matter if that's now or in 60 years time.

I'm no greenie, but I'm an economist and if getting a benefit from something now comes with incurring costs hundreds or even thousands of years from now it doesn't make economic sense. You're just kicking the ball to the next generation.


Wrong view imho.

you have a constant relatively small accumulation of waste from running the plants. you have a humungous amount of waste from disasssembly of those same power stations.
Waste disposal is currently more of a principal problem ( up and down the country it is all NIMBYs clamoring "not here" )
A solution is more or less independent of waste volume.

The waste issue won't change a tiny little bit from continuing to run those plants. ( Under the assumption that it is a MultiMillenium job
changing the start date by a decade makes no difference at all. Changing the waste volume by a couple of percent neither.


If what you're saying is that plants should be run their expected lifecycle I agree with that.

But the economic problem still remains. You're dumping toxic waste management costs down hundreds of generations, and no one really knows what will happen down the line. Nuclear power generation has been in use since less than a hundred years, and the cost sheet is already extending to a few millenia. I'm not saying it has to be automatically disqualified from any energy mix, but all costs should be accounted for.
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:45 am

salttee wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
I can't for the life of me understand why a country like Germany would ditch nuclear power. If anyone could make a success of it it's surely them?

Yea, them or the Japanese.


What really broke the stations neck was placing the fuel for aux diesel power right at the quay side.

You should have watched news here. That catastrophe was presented as solely turning around
"the sky’s are falling due to Fukushima nuclear power station."

Few words on the much larger havoc wrought all along the coast and the massive death toll associated.
Fukushima Fukushima Fukushima Fukushima Fukushima Fukushima Fukushima Fukushima Fukushima

Presented completely out of all proportions.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:55 am

JJJ wrote:
You're dumping toxic waste management costs down hundreds of generations, and no one really knows what will happen down the line.


That is a given ( except for going for transmutation ) whichever way you go.
You don't increase that load by continuing to work the existing stations.

With negligible further impact on environmental issues
it would have been the much brighter solution to demote coal and continue nuclear ... except for the treehugging NIMBYs.
( Who in their fervor are about as destructive as the book loving christians in medieval times. )

Compare civil engineering ( fresh water, roads, sewage handling ) during Roman times to the
dimwits 500 ... 1500 years later that thought building religious bling while sipping their own shit was a good idea
and god would smile on them. Greenies today have about the same "auto-flagellation is bliss" mindset.
Murphy is an optimist
 
JJJ
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:13 am

WIederling wrote:
JJJ wrote:
You're dumping toxic waste management costs down hundreds of generations, and no one really knows what will happen down the line.


That is a given ( except for going for transmutation ) whichever way you go.
You don't increase that load by continuing to work the existing stations.

With negligible further impact on environmental issues
it would have been the much brighter solution to demote coal and continue nuclear ... except for the treehugging NIMBYs.
( Who in their fervor are about as destructive as the book loving christians in medieval times. )


So it's still a sunken cost rationale. What would you do once the now-modern centrals run their cycle?

Don't talk about tree-hugging NIMBYs, let's speak life-cycle costs.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:56 am

JJJ wrote:
WIederling wrote:
JJJ wrote:
You're dumping toxic waste management costs down hundreds of generations, and no one really knows what will happen down the line.


That is a given ( except for going for transmutation ) whichever way you go.
You don't increase that load by continuing to work the existing stations.

With negligible further impact on environmental issues
it would have been the much brighter solution to demote coal and continue nuclear ... except for the treehugging NIMBYs.
( Who in their fervor are about as destructive as the book loving christians in medieval times. )


So it's still a sunken cost rationale. What would you do once the now-modern centrals run their cycle?

Don't talk about tree-hugging NIMBYs, let's speak life-cycle costs.


I think it is a valid discussion, continue to operate a nuclear power plant (till economically not viable) with all its drawbacks, but with a little extra nuclear waste, above the waste which comes out of it when you demolish it which you have to do anyway, or continue to burn this very dirty coal. I do not have the answer to that, but it is a valid question. We have to do something to have electricity and therewith continue to expand the renewables as soon as possible.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:21 am

JJJ wrote:
So it's still a sunken cost rationale. What would you do once the now-modern centrals run their cycle?

Don't talk about tree-hugging NIMBYs, let's speak life-cycle costs.


It is also a "marginal increase of risk" rationale.

On going forward:

The renewables nearly all have one major issue: planability(reasonable to low) / controlability(low) of energy available at any time.
Another issue is distributed small to medium energy supply to the grid. All these renewables require a stable grid to be able to inject power.
To create a KISS stable grid you need large lumped controllable power stations. Using EV batteries as storage is no improvement stability wise.
Booting up large regions after a blackout without lumped power is nigh impossible.

Burning coal is undesirable, Nuclear is undesirable.
But I don't see renewables meshing in satisfactorily either.

Unsolved problem at the moment.

Personally I'd look more into nuclear ( fission, fusion ) power generation and much more into destructive nuclear waste disposal.
All the current "disposal by long time storage solutions" are unworkable and thus undesirable.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:03 pm

This sounds like something out of Futurama, but why don't they just take nuclear/toxic/industrial waste and put it on a rocket to send in to outer space or the Sun? Yeah it's more expensive than a landfill, but it would be out of the planet forever and can still provide research into spaceflight.
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
WIederling
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Re: A German village disappears to make way for coal

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
This sounds like something out of Futurama, but why don't they just take nuclear/toxic/industrial waste and put it on a rocket to send in to outer space or the Sun? Yeah it's more expensive than a landfill, but it would be out of the planet forever and can still provide research into spaceflight.


Just the chance for loosing one or the other shot to space in a fireball moves it from Futurama to the Simpsons Universe.
Murphy is an optimist

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