R u s s i a

Scorpius · Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:36 pm

salttee wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Already more than once mentioned - Putin, Minister Lavrov, our representatives in the UN and so on, nothing and no one can dictate and impose on Russia any conditions that do not meet the interests of our national security. You need to understand one simple fact: Russia has its own interests, and she doesn't have anyone to be accountable for them.
While accurate and technically true, such rhetoric is reminiscent of any totalitarian dictatorship in any era. It is also symbolic of ever present Russian hostility towards the rest of the world. The Vikings probably brought it over a millennium and a half ago.
Scorpius wrote:
Why not required? Because none of the treaties, which were concluded with Western countries, these Western countries are not respected. We gave permission for the unification of the FRG and the GDR under the guarantee of the non-proliferation of NATO further to the East - that promise was broken.
Where were these guarantees written?
Scorpius wrote:
We signed a contract for missile defense systems - United States unilaterally terminated it.
And did so within the stated terms of the treaty. This issue is a non sequitur anyway, the piddling ABM systems the US has are no deterrent to Russia's hundreds of ICBMs. They aren't even much of a deterrent to rogue states. You're making a mountain out of a molehill with this issue.
Scorpius wrote:
Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. You violated the agreement, now Russia does not believe the West, and acts only in its own interests. Blame your politicians for the fact that their incompetence, greed and deceit led to the fact that Russia now considers the West the enemy, and acts accordingly.
At the time I personally wasn't in favor of the NATO expansion; however, as things have worked out I now see the advocates of expansion as being prescient. They were right and I was wrong.

The aggression in the world preaching the US and its satellites over the years since the collapse of the USSR how many military conflicts around the world was waged by the NATO countries? Take the example of Syria - that NATO troops doing there? Russian invited the government, and who invited the Americans?
All further discussion see meaningless, until then, until you learn to see who actually brings the greatest evil on Earth - you will be around to blame Putin.
At that time, as all actions of Russia - only a forced reaction to the policies pursued by the countries of the West.

salttee · Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:09 pm

I know that you were against the NATO interference in your Serbian friend's genocide, but I am surprised that you now seem to be opposed to US operations against ISIS, after all you Russians also have problems with Islamic extremism. Is this really the case?

But to get down to the real issue, Russia has always been on the verge of war with someone in the west even back to the days of the Czars and its never worked to Russian advantage. Why do you think renewed conflict will work out better for you now that you've been stripped of your CIS states?

CitizenJustin · Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:10 pm

Scorpius wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Good to see you subscribe to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, do you feel that in Russia no rights are violated for none of the people?

It’s certainly difficult going up against these pro-Russian members, but you’re doing great. As a gay man, it’s hard for me to take any of these people seriously knowing the horrors LGBT people are subjected to in Russia. Daily life may be fine for your average white, heterosexual male, but life for others is vastly different and members like TU204 are obviously highly selective at what they choose to see. He seems to think that his experience equals everyone’s experience.

In Russia, life for LGBT people is no different from the lives of other citizens. No one cares whether you're LGBT or not, there are not satisfied with the checks on heterosexuality, and for voting at elections are not required to specify your sexual orientation.
The problem for LGBT people is that they need to imagine what kind of special relationship, and that in itself is a source of irritation to citizens. Accept the fact that LGBT do not get any special rights and freedoms in Russia - here it's not popular and condemned by public morality. But I repeat - none of the others will not go into what happens to you in the bedroom. In turn you respect the right of people around you do not know about how and with whom you have sex. By following these simple rules you will have no special problems in Russia.

Hundreds of videos exist showing LGBT being brutalized in Russia and Russia has been condemned internationally for its treatment of the community. We don’t want special rights, we want equal rights, the same rights everyone else has. Heterosexual couples display their affections and love for one another publicly, so stating that only same sex couples must remain silent about whom they sleep with or love is discriminatory. You’re essentially advocating a life of shame and silencing of anyone who isn’t heterosexual.

Dutchy · Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:12 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Hundreds of videos exist showing LGBT being brutalized in Russia and Russia has been condemned internationally for its treatment of the community. We don’t want special rights, we want equal rights, the same rights everyone else has. Heterosexual couples display their affections and love for one another publicly, so stating that only same sex couples must remain silent about whom they sleep with or love is discriminatory. You’re essentially advocating a life of shame and silencing of anyone who isn’t heterosexual.

Equal rights indeed, why not? And accept each other as they are.

Tugger · Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:23 pm

Some people can't resist being turned gay. Or so they feel, that is why they forbid "public displays" or people acknowledging what they are and that they are actually happy. I guess there are a lot of people that will just suddenly turn gay in Russia if people knew (same as was the case in the USA for a long time but then proved the theory wrong).

Tugg

Dutchy · Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
Some people can't resist being turned gay. Or so they feel, that is why they forbid "public displays" or people acknowledging what they are and that they are actually happy. I guess there are a lot of people that will just suddenly turn gay in Russia if people knew (same as was the case in the USA for a long time but then proved the theory wrong).

Tugg

haha, nice sarcasm ( I hope

)

Tugger · Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Some people can't resist being turned gay. Or so they feel, that is why they forbid "public displays" or people acknowledging what they are and that they are actually happy. I guess there are a lot of people that will just suddenly turn gay in Russia if people knew (same as was the case in the USA for a long time but then proved the theory wrong).

Tugg

haha, nice sarcasm ( I hope )

Lord I HOPE people don't think they'll magically turn gay by seeing someone who is (I haven't so far and I am surrounded by 'em! ;-)

)

Tugg

Dutchy · Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Some people can't resist being turned gay. Or so they feel, that is why they forbid "public displays" or people acknowledging what they are and that they are actually happy. I guess there are a lot of people that will just suddenly turn gay in Russia if people knew (same as was the case in the USA for a long time but then proved the theory wrong).

Tugg

haha, nice sarcasm ( I hope )

Lord I HOPE people don't think they'll magically turn gay by seeing someone who is (I haven't so far and I am surrounded by 'em! )

Tugg

Well in Russia they seem to think so, their anti-recruiting law.

Scorpius · Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:25 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:

It’s certainly difficult going up against these pro-Russian members, but you’re doing great. As a gay man, it’s hard for me to take any of these people seriously knowing the horrors LGBT people are subjected to in Russia. Daily life may be fine for your average white, heterosexual male, but life for others is vastly different and members like TU204 are obviously highly selective at what they choose to see. He seems to think that his experience equals everyone’s experience.

In Russia, life for LGBT people is no different from the lives of other citizens. No one cares whether you're LGBT or not, there are not satisfied with the checks on heterosexuality, and for voting at elections are not required to specify your sexual orientation.
The problem for LGBT people is that they need to imagine what kind of special relationship, and that in itself is a source of irritation to citizens. Accept the fact that LGBT do not get any special rights and freedoms in Russia - here it's not popular and condemned by public morality. But I repeat - none of the others will not go into what happens to you in the bedroom. In turn you respect the right of people around you do not know about how and with whom you have sex. By following these simple rules you will have no special problems in Russia.

Hundreds of videos exist showing LGBT being brutalized in Russia and Russia has been condemned internationally for its treatment of the community. We don’t want special rights, we want equal rights, the same rights everyone else has. Heterosexual couples display their affections and love for one another publicly, so stating that only same sex couples must remain silent about whom they sleep with or love is discriminatory. You’re essentially advocating a life of shame and silencing of anyone who isn’t heterosexual.

Let's start with the fact that at least half of these videos are staged, or LGBT people in them behave provocatively. You don't understand public morality in Russia strictly condemns such sexual perversion. This is the way of society, and all members of society are obliged to respect such order. We have, incidentally, not approved by the intimate public displays of affection, and at any moment of kissing in a public place a couple can shame people passing by, even if the couple was heterosexual.
As to the situation of LGBT in Russia don't have any special persecution. Just in Russia, you can get in trouble just for a sideways glance or a wrong address to strangers. Compared with some work areas, some of Chelyabinsk, Harlem is just a resort for white people.

Scorpius · Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

haha, nice sarcasm ( I hope )

Lord I HOPE people don't think they'll magically turn gay by seeing someone who is (I haven't so far and I am surrounded by 'em! )

Tugg

Well in Russia they seem to think so, their anti-recruiting law.

This law is directed against propaganda of homosexual relations among minors. In my opinion, and I would have the propaganda of religion by minors is banned, then it would be quite good.

Tugger · Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
This law is directed against propaganda of homosexual relations among minors. In my opinion, and I would have the propaganda of religion by minors is banned, then it would be quite good.

Why would you term it propaganda? And also how do you communicate to youths that are homosexual and let them understand who they are and that it is OK? The idea as you communicate it seems to make any open homosexuality be banned as potential "propaganda" toward a minor. Which is silly and a poor method if managing something that is normal.

Tugg

Dutchy · Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
This law is directed against propaganda of homosexual relations among minors. In my opinion, and I would have the propaganda of religion by minors is banned, then it would be quite good.

Why would you term it propaganda? And also how do you communicate to youths that are homosexual and let them understand who they are and that it is OK? The idea as you communicate it seems to make any open homosexuality be banned as potential "propaganda" toward a minor. Which is silly and a poor method if managing something that is normal.

Tugg

I really don't get it, this law. homosexuals in their teens are insecure about their sexuality. This law makes it illegal to offer any help in a difficult time in their lives. And these homosexuals are their sons and their granddaughters and their sisters and their classmates and their friends. Why not offer them help. Propaganda is ridiculous, homosexuality is something you are born with, not thought. Religion is something which has been thought, that is quite a different thing.

Scorpius · Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
This law is directed against propaganda of homosexual relations among minors. In my opinion, and I would have the propaganda of religion by minors is banned, then it would be quite good.

Why would you term it propaganda? And also how do you communicate to youths that are homosexual and let them understand who they are and that it is OK? The idea as you communicate it seems to make any open homosexuality be banned as potential "propaganda" toward a minor. Which is silly and a poor method if managing something that is normal.

Tugg

I really don't get it, this law. homosexuals in their teens are insecure about their sexuality. This law makes it illegal to offer any help in a difficult time in their lives. And these homosexuals are their sons and their granddaughters and their sisters and their classmates and their friends. Why not offer them help. Propaganda is ridiculous, homosexuality is something you are born with, not thought. Religion is something which has been thought, that is quite a different thing.

Federal law of June 29, 2013 N 135-FZ Moscow "About modification of article 5 of the Federal law "On protection of children from information harmful to their health and development" and certain legislative acts of the Russian Federation to protect children from information promoting denial of traditional family values"

Adopted by the State Duma on 11 June 2013

Approved by the Federation Council on 26 June 2013

Article 1

Paragraph 4 of part 2 of article 5 of the Federal law of 29 December 2010 N 436-FZ "On the protection of children from information harmful to their health and development" (collected legislation of the Russian Federation, 2011, N 1, article 48; 2013, No. 14, article 1658) after the word "values" to add with words "promoting non-traditional sexual relations".

Article 2

Paragraph 1 of article 14 of the Federal law of 24 July 1998 No. 124-FZ "On basic guarantees of child rights in the Russian Federation" (meeting of the legislation of the Russian Federation, 1998, N2 31, article 3802; 2008, N2 30, one hundred 3616; 2009, N2, 23, article 2773; 2011, N2 30, 4600 one hundred), after the words "pornographic nature", add the words "from information promoting non-traditional sexual relations,"

Article 3

To amend the Code of the Russian Federation about administrative offences (meeting of the legislation of the Russian Federation, 2002, N 1, article 1; No. 30, article 3029; No. 44, article 4295; 2003, N 27, article 2700, 2708, 2717; No. 46, article 4434; N 50, the item 4847, 4855; 2004, No. 31, article 3229; N 34, article 3529, 3533; No. 44, article 4266; 2005, N 1, article 9, 13,40, 45; No. 10, article 763; N 13, item 1075, 1077; No. 19, article 1752; No. 27, article 2719, 2721; N 30, p. 3104, 3131; No. 50, article 5247; No. 52, article 5574; 2006, N 1, article 4, 1; N 2, article 172; No. 6, article 636; No. 10, article 1067; No. 12, article 1234; N 17, article 1776; No. 18, article 1907; No. 19, article 2066; N 23, article 2380; No. 31, article 3420, 3438, 3452; No. 45, article 4641; No. 50, article 5279, 5281; No. 52, article 5498; 2007, N 1, p. 21,29; No. 16, article 1825; No. 26, article 3089; No. 30, article 3755; No. 31, article 4007, 4008; No. 41, article 4845; N43, article 5084; No. 46, article 5553; 2008, N 18, article 1941; No. 20, article 2251,2259; N29, article 3418; No. 30, article 3604; No. 49, article 5745; No. 52, article 6235, 6236; 2009, N 7, article 777; No. 23, article 2759; No. 26, article 3120, 3122; No. 29, article 3597, 3642; No. 30, article 3739; No. 48, article 5711, 5724; No. 52, article 6412; 2010, No. 1, article 1; No. 19, article 2291; No. 21, article 2525; N 23, article 2790; No. 27, article 3416; No. 30, article 4002, 4006, 4007; N 31, art. 4158, 4164, 4193, 4195, 4206, 4207, 4208; N 41, article 5192; No. 49, article 6409; 2011, N 1, article 10,23,29, 54; No. 7, article 901; No. 15, article 2039; N 17, article 2310; No. 19, article 2714, 2715; No. 23, article 3260; No. 27, article 3873; No. 29, article 4290, 4298; No. 30, article. 4573, 4585, 4590, 4598,4600, 4601, 4605; No. 46, article 6406; No. 47, article 6602; No. 48, article 6728; No. 49, article 7025, 7061; No. 50, art. 7342, 7345, 7346, 7351, 7352, 7355, 7362, 7366; 2012, No. 6, article 621; No. 10, article 1166; No. 19, article 2278, 2281; No. 24, item 3069, 3082; No. 29, article 3996; No. 31, article 4320, 4330; No. 41, article 5523; N 47, p. 6402, 6403, 6404, 6405; No. 49, article 6757; N 53, art. 7577, 7602, 7640; 2013, No. 8, article 720; No. 14, article 1651, 1658, 1666; No. 19, article 2323, 2325) the following changes:

1) in first paragraph of part 1 of article 3.5 of the word "articles 5.38, 20.2", the words "article 5.38, parts 2 and 4 of article 6.21, articles 20.2", the words "under part 21 of article 14.16" substitute "under part 2 of article 6.21, part 21 of article 14.16";

2) in Chapter 6:

a) in part 1 of article 6.17:

in paragraph one the words "article 6.20" to replace with words "articles 6.20,6.21";

in the second paragraph the words "and (or) administrative" shall be substituted
"or administrative";

b) add article 6.21 as follows:

"Article 6.21. Propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations among minors
1. Propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations among minors expressed in the dissemination of information aimed at the formation of nesovershennoletnih of non-traditional sexual attitudes, attractiveness of nontraditional sexual relationships, distorted ideas about social equivalence of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or imposing information about non-traditional sexual relationships, causing interest in such relations if these actions do not contain penal act, -

punishable by an administrative fine on citizens in the amount from four thousand to five thousand roubles; on officials - from forty thousand to fifty thousand rubles; on legal entities - from eight hundred thousand to one million rubles or administrative suspension of activity for up to ninety days.

2. Actions envisaged in part 1 of this article, committed by using mass media and (or) information and telecommunication networks (including network "Internet") if these actions do not contain penal act, -

shall entail the imposition of an administrative fine on citizens in the amount from fifty thousand to one hundred thousand rubles; on officials - from hundred thousand to two hundred thousand rubles; for legal entities - one million rubles or administrative suspension of activity for up to ninety days.

3. Actions envisaged in part 1 of this article committed by a foreign citizen or stateless person, if these actions do not contain penal act, -

shall entail the imposition of an administrative fine in the amount from four thousand to five thousand roubles with administrative exclusion for limits of the Russian Federation or administrative arrest for up to fifteen days with administrative exclusion for limits of the Russian Federation.

4. Actions envisaged in part 1 of this article committed by a foreign citizen or stateless person with the use of mass media and (or) information and telecommunication networks (including network "Internet") if these actions do not contain penal act, -

shall entail the imposition of an administrative fine in the amount from fifty thousand to hundred thousand roubles with administrative exclusion for limits of the Russian Federation or administrative arrest for up to fifteen days with administrative exclusion for limits of the Russian Federation.";

3) in part 1 of article 23.1 of the number "6.18 - 6.20" to replace with figures "6.18 - 6.21";

4) in part 2 of article 28.3:

a) paragraph 1 after the numbers "6.20," add the numbers "6.21,";

b) paragraph 58 after figures "6.13," add the numbers "6.21,".

Article 4

In the second paragraph of article 1, paragraph 1 of the Federal law of 7 may 2013 N 96-FZ "On amendments to the Russian Code of administrative offences" (meeting of the legislation of the Russian Federation, 2013, N 19, p. 2323), the words "articles 5.38, 7.13, 7.14, 7.142, part 2 of article 7.15", the words "article 5.38, parts 2 and 4 of article 6.21, articles 7.13, 7.14, 7.142, part 2 of article 7.15", the words "under part 21 of article 14.16" substitute "under part 2 of article 6.21, part 21 of article 14.16".

Article 5

This Federal law shall enter into force from the day of its official publication.

Russian President Vladimir Putin

...According to pretty sensational (and boring) to draft Federal law No. 44554-6, propaganda of homosexuality among minors now entails not only an overwhelming desire to engage in homosexuality have the most minor and administrative responsibility.

Well involves and implies, would be why break chairs. In my view, the modest scale of the incident does not correspond to the scale rising in the public debate. Duma adopted in first reading stupid, impossible to implement the law. You may think it is the first time you did. In turn, individual members of the LGBT community responded to this event as if tomorrow opened in the country camp.

To encourage domestic Parliament to common sense I wouldn't – it's not the most useful exercise. But to appeal to common sense, civil society is desirable, because common sense he may still need. And a little sequence never hurt anyone.

The key word in the bill is "propaganda". A balanced and legally-strict definition of this term is the key to understanding the essence of the initiative and all its consequences. Instead of idle talk about the lack of a precise definition of propaganda, I propose to refer to documents. I know that reading papers is boring, and to shout no pasarán much more interesting, but still.

The most important document on this issue is the determination of the Supreme court of the Russian Federation No. 87-АПГ12-2 of 7 November 2012 ( http://www.vsrf.ru/stor_pdf.php?id=512110 ) on a similar initiative in Kostroma legislators. Despite the fact that the court found the prohibition of propaganda of homosexuality legal, the definition of "propaganda" I would rate as very adequate and good.

The question of propaganda, the court is guided by article 3 "of a Model law on the protection of children from information harmful to their health and development", adopted at the 33rd plenary meeting of the Interparliamentary Assembly of the CIS. In this propaganda is defined as "the activities of physical and (or) legal entities for the dissemination of information aimed at developing in the minds of the installations and (or) behaviour, or aimed to encourage or encouraged persons to whom it is addressed, to commit any action or to refrain from acting".

He model law is a legislative act of Advisory nature and legal force on the territory of Russia has not. But the link to it recognizes it as a source of law in the interpretation of other legal acts. The court also refers to the fact that the term "propaganda" is contained in article 6.13 of the administrative code, envisaging responsibility for the promotion of drugs, as well as in article 20.3 of the administrative code containing the rules on liability for propaganda of Nazi paraphernalia and symbols. So with the promotion of the deputies did not invent the Bicycle.

So, what is propaganda of homosexuality among minors? Supreme court ruling leaves the question of doubt. I will come to school and begin to develop children's homosexual system and stereotypes, to encourage them to commit homosexual or what to refrain from doing what heterosexual – that is, propaganda. To put it bluntly: "Children who have same-sex sex!" Difficult to say how such a call is better (or worse) the call to engage in heterosexual sex.

Again, no American in this. Federal law (now Russian, that is legally binding) of 29 December 2010, the number 436-FZ "On the protection of children from information harmful to their health and development" explicitly prohibits information products, "inducing children to commit acts that endanger their life and health; can cause in children the desire to use drugs, tobacco products, alcohol products, to participate in gambling games, prostitution, vagrancy or begging; substantiating or justifying the admissibility of violence or cruelty; denying family values and forming disrespect to parents or other family members; justifying illegal behavior; containing foul language; containing information of pornographic nature". I beg the reader's pardon for the long quote, but here is an important point. Russia has long been the law banning "propaganda" of such a legitimate adult citizen of activities such as Smoking, alcohol consumption, vagrancy and begging, disrespect towards parents, using foul language and even jumping off a bridge upside down. However, the public actions of smokers, alcoholics and foul-mouthed in the state Duma in this connection is not seen.

Next very LGBT-fiendly. In relation to the Kostroma court of law, in particular, notes that it "does not appear to the General prohibition, disapproval of homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality, transgenderism and its negative assessment in the General system of legal regulation and contains a ban of public actions aimed at propaganda among minors". Keep reading and find out that "the prohibition of propaganda of sodomy, lesbianism, bisexuality, transgenderism does not preclude the realization of the right to receive and impart information of a General, neutral content about sexual relationships, conduct public events in the manner prescribed by law, including open public debates about social status of sexual minorities"...

Dutchy · Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:11 pm

Yes indeed, a very harmful law for the LGTB community especially for young LGTB's and their acceptance in society, thanks for posting it in its entirety.

B0pp0 · Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:57 pm

A WaPo Opinion piece going on about how Russia is going to attack the next election and the GOP won't even try to stop it.

For years, we demonized Communism. Witch hunted people who were even suspected of being one. Made those who were it pariahs. We made Russia out to be a big bad and now they have us by the cojones AND they're going to get first dibs on a post-Castro Cuba which we pissed away in the name of the feelings of a few old people and nothing more.

Your average paid Russian troll gets free healthcare, generous vacation, and generous maternity leave. If Russia really wanted to influence us, please do it to bring us up to that level and not ruin us further. We hated Russia why again?

salttee · Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:52 pm

B0pp0 wrote:
We hated Russia why again?

Mostly because of the same old "We Will Bury You" bullshit.

These days Putin packages it a bit differently, but it's the same old same old.

If you experienced western life you might not crow so approvingly of the Russian lifestyle. (Unless of course you are tied in with the oligarchs in some fashion.)

B0pp0 · Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:59 pm

salttee wrote:
B0pp0 wrote:
We hated Russia why again?

Mostly because of the same old "We Will Bury You" bullshit.

These days Putin packages it a bit differently, but it's the same old same old.

If you experienced western life you might not crow so approvingly of the Russian lifestyle. (Unless of course you are tied in with the oligarchs in some fashion.)

Your average Russian is better off than anyone in the former Confederacy. At least poor Russians get that they aren't Temporarily Embarassed Oligarchs and do what they can to help their fellow comrades.

"We will bury you". Khrushchev was right, only 60 years early.

anrec80 · Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:32 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
Hundreds of videos exist showing LGBT being brutalized in Russia and Russia has been condemned internationally for its treatment of the community. We don’t want special rights, we want equal rights, the same rights everyone else has. Heterosexual couples display their affections and love for one another publicly, so stating that only same sex couples must remain silent about whom they sleep with or love is discriminatory. You’re essentially advocating a life of shame and silencing of anyone who isn’t heterosexual.

Oh please. In Russia, just as in any society “LGBT activists” call “homophobic”, 99% of people don’t care who is doing what in their bedroom. If you are talking about their legislature - there is reasoning behind it. It’s demographics - and it does work and give results. In Russia, they have a positive population growth, and birth rate is higher than mortality rate.

This is BTW something you should think about and prioritize in Europe - what’s your demographic situation like? And these gay rights and “third sex” things certainly are a major contributor here. In the USA it’s also in military - who will treat a military seriously that prioritizes gender changes above anything else? Or - is rather yet another institution for gay rights promoition, like in many European nations? How will such military fight Russians - on a battlefield they’d pull down pants and hope enemy would die from laughing?

Dutchy · Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:34 am

anrec80 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Hundreds of videos exist showing LGBT being brutalized in Russia and Russia has been condemned internationally for its treatment of the community. We don’t want special rights, we want equal rights, the same rights everyone else has. Heterosexual couples display their affections and love for one another publicly, so stating that only same sex couples must remain silent about whom they sleep with or love is discriminatory. You’re essentially advocating a life of shame and silencing of anyone who isn’t heterosexual.

Oh please. In Russia, just as in any society “LGBT activists” call “homophobic”, 99% of people don’t care who is doing what in their bedroom. If you are talking about their legislature - there is reasoning behind it. It’s demographics - and it does work and give results. In Russia, they have a positive population growth, and birth rate is higher than mortality rate.

This is BTW something you should think about and prioritize in Europe - what’s your demographic situation like? And these gay rights and “third sex” things certainly are a major contributor here. In the USA it’s also in military - who will treat a military seriously that prioritizes gender changes above anything else? Or - is rather yet another institution for gay rights promoition, like in many European nations? How will such military fight Russians - on a battlefield they’d pull down pants and hope enemy would die from laughing?

oh please, you can't turn gay by recruiting, you are born with your sexual orientation. Such a homofobic statement just scary how you think, if you realy think like that.

WIederling · Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:27 am

Tugger wrote:
Here is one of the biggest problems that Russia faces:

“There is as much financial wealth held by rich Russians abroad -- in the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Cyprus, and similar offshore centers -- than held by the entire Russian population in Russia itself,” From a study published in August by the Cambridge, Massachusetts-based National Bureau of Economic Research. The study put the figure at 75 percent of national income, or about 60 trillion rubles ($1.04 trillion).
http://www.nber.org/papers/w23712

With the issue being that the US is a corporatist entity ( state as tool of corporations/the wealthy )
while the RF is not.
Naturally the oligarchs that have made off with the former Soviet unions wealth align with the US.
This is as a problem is not limited to the RF. ( i.e. Keeping your wealthy loyal while not succumbing to corporatism.)

Le Guin: The Disposessed.

Dutchy · Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:04 am

WIederling wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Here is one of the biggest problems that Russia faces:

“There is as much financial wealth held by rich Russians abroad -- in the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Cyprus, and similar offshore centers -- than held by the entire Russian population in Russia itself,” From a study published in August by the Cambridge, Massachusetts-based National Bureau of Economic Research. The study put the figure at 75 percent of national income, or about 60 trillion rubles ($1.04 trillion).
http://www.nber.org/papers/w23712

With the issue being that the US is a corporatist entity ( state as tool of corporations/the wealthy )
while the RF is not.
Naturally the oligarchs that have made off with the former Soviet unions wealth align with the US.
This is as a problem is not limited to the RF. ( i.e. Keeping your wealthy loyal while not succumbing to corporatism.)

Le Guin: The Disposessed.

What is the Russian Federation according to you?

WIederling · Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
What is the Russian Federation according to you?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0 ... 0%B8%D1%8F

dumb question, afaics.

Dutchy · Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:31 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What is the Russian Federation according to you?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0 ... 0%B8%D1%8F

dumb question, afaics.

As far as you can see?

Why is it a dumb question? I am asking according to you, so how would I know and why do you give me a Wikipedia page? Did you write that?

According to you, the US is a corporatist entity ( state as tool of corporations/the wealthy ), according to the Wikipedia page it is an "Constitutionele republiek met een presidentieel stelsel" https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verenigde_Staten ( and yes I followed your footsteps to use the Wikipedia of my native language ). So your assessment of the US differs to what is written in Wiki, so what is dumb about that question? Perhaps the dumb part is taking you seriously in any way?

cvgComair · Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Hundreds of videos exist showing LGBT being brutalized in Russia and Russia has been condemned internationally for its treatment of the community. We don’t want special rights, we want equal rights, the same rights everyone else has. Heterosexual couples display their affections and love for one another publicly, so stating that only same sex couples must remain silent about whom they sleep with or love is discriminatory. You’re essentially advocating a life of shame and silencing of anyone who isn’t heterosexual.

Oh please. In Russia, just as in any society “LGBT activists” call “homophobic”, 99% of people don’t care who is doing what in their bedroom. If you are talking about their legislature - there is reasoning behind it. It’s demographics - and it does work and give results. In Russia, they have a positive population growth, and birth rate is higher than mortality rate.

This is BTW something you should think about and prioritize in Europe - what’s your demographic situation like? And these gay rights and “third sex” things certainly are a major contributor here. In the USA it’s also in military - who will treat a military seriously that prioritizes gender changes above anything else? Or - is rather yet another institution for gay rights promoition, like in many European nations? How will such military fight Russians - on a battlefield they’d pull down pants and hope enemy would die from laughing?

To your point, why wouldn't you want to prioritize eliminating discrimination in your country/military? I would love to see the "evidence" that the US military is hurting because the leadership of the military actually cares about the individuals that are serving. Just because someone has a different sexual orientation or identifies with another/third gender, what effect does that have on their fighting ability? Absolutely none. As an American, I am happy to know that tax dollars are being spent on a military made up of people who love their country and want to protect it. Sexual orientation and gender identity do not effect one's ability to serve. To echo Dutchy, it is scary that people actually think this way.

salttee · Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:42 pm

There are almost certainly the same number of gays in the current US Army as were in the US Army in WW2, the difference being that now most of them can acknowledge that fact to themselves and the rest of the world. Furthermore, there were almost certainly the same number of gays (statistically speaking) in the Soviet force defending Stalingrad in November of 1942 as are in the current US Army. That fact is never going to go away.

anrec80 · Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:30 am

cvgComair wrote:
To your point, why wouldn't you want to prioritize eliminating discrimination in your country/military? I would love to see the "evidence" that the US military is hurting because the leadership of the military actually cares about the individuals that are serving. Just because someone has a different sexual orientation or identifies with another/third gender, what effect does that have on their fighting ability? Absolutely none. As an American, I am happy to know that tax dollars are being spent on a military made up of people who love their country and want to protect it. Sexual orientation and gender identity do not effect one's ability to serve. To echo Dutchy, it is scary that people actually think this way.

OK, I should probably clarify my post. Do I mean that it’s OK to discriminate LGBT people (whether by birth or by choice)? Absolutely not, neither in civilian life (access to career opportunities, education, healthcare, retirement, etc.). Same is true about military - if an LGBT patriot decides to join military - sure, they should be guaranteed equal, respectful and fair treatment, equal recognition, equal criteria for entry and equal access to growth, promotions and benefits. Equal treatment of LGBT individuals should be part of military life, training and upbringing.

Together with that - let’s look at the impact when LGBT matters in military take central place in publicity of the military. Military is an important state institution - and one of its major functions (if not the most important) is to stand behind diplomatic negotiations. Hence publicity around the military should be around successes of its members, new technologies, improved training, etc. And when these LGBT matters take central place? Opponents will simply not react to military’s argument in important political and economic negotiations - and these negotiations will either fail or US won’t get favorable for them outcome. What I described - is approximately how the military argument will be viewed. And publicity about gender changes in military at presidential level certainly doesn't help anything at all.

Together with that - the Russian law is exactly about publicity aspect around LGBT matters, applied to demographics. Russian society believes a bit differently - if you are a member of society. The society (the nation) has some goals to accomplish, tasks, interests. And there are certain hopes on you, and expectations from you. One of them - is to have a healthy family with ideally more then 2 kids of your own. And if a country wants to improve birth rates - it wants today’s 7, 10, 15 year olds to see happy families with multiple younger kids. Then they are likelier to start their families with kids. The law simply asks LGBT members to not bring their relationship and sexuality matters to public. Just that - it does not discriminate them anyhow, prevents their employment, access to opportunities, etc.

salttee · Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:00 am

anrec80 wrote:
The law simply asks LGBT members to not bring their relationship and sexuality matters to public. Just that - it does not discriminate them anyhow, prevents their employment, access to opportunities, etc.

As someone who has lived through the civil rights era in the US (1954 - present) and witnessed the arguments forgiving racial, religious, gender, body type and whatever other types of discrimination that exist and have existed, I would like to convey to you how absolutely typical your little essay above has been among the obstructionist community.

If you could only see yourself as other and wiser people see you.
But that has been the problem all along.

Dutchy · Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:05 am

So you say the LGBT community isn't discriminate, but then you go on to defend a law which does exactly that. The law tells them, not ask like you framed it, not to go public with a relationship.

Could you please provide us with a causal link of open LGTB in society and birthrates? Demographic is a pathetic answer to discrimination on sexual orientation grounds.

anrec80 · Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:43 am

Dutchy wrote:
So you say the LGBT community isn't discriminate, but then you go on to defend a law which does exactly that. The law tells them, not ask like you framed it, not to go public with a relationship.

Could you please provide us with a causal link of open LGTB in society and birthrates? Demographic is a pathetic answer to discrimination on sexual orientation grounds.

Where do you see discrimination here? The only thing law prohibits is public promotion of such relationship and way of life. It does not have any other restrictions. Nobody will make a problem if 2 boys want to hold hands in a park, and that's all. Other than this, LGBT rights in Russia on individual level have the same protection as in the West pretty much.

The law in fact began with attempts of local gay communities to organize gay parades in some cities, and local citizens asking politicians they elected to ban such things. And the elected politicians did exactly that - passed measures on municipal level. Later these measures were picked up in Moscow and turned into a federal law. They could have simply be imposed on a municipal or regional level in most cities, instead of federal one. Perhaps there would have been less noise then.

As you probably know, Russians in their majority don't share liberal ideology, and are much more traditional. It's not something "Putin regime" did, rather opposite - they did what democratically elected government should do - listen to their voters. Nothing else. The best and right thing to do for Westerners - leave Russians alone with these topics and let them live the way they want.

Dutchy · Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:38 am

Democracy isn't listening to the majority, or dictatorship of the majority, it is all about protecting the minority as well. Would be an interesting experiment for two boys holding hands in down Gorkipark and seeing the reaction of onlookers or two girls kissing each other or showing other kinds of affection, well they did the social experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-6njDZM974 . This video alone proofs you are just plain wrong or telling a lie.

And Putin himself about the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8xSZ9Fr4c0 Main point seems to be, Russia hasn't made it illegal so they are better than the 70 countries around the world that have made it illegal and the 7 countries which have made it punishable by death. Seems like quite a low bar to pass, so even Putin says Russia is somewhere in the middle of the world ranking.

Warning against it are in place: https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... erous-fare

Like you point out, LGTB's are institutionalized discriminated against because of this law, they can't do the same thing as heterosexuals. Gay parades are just that, to show they are part of their community as well, not the extravaganza party which in turned out to be in Amsterdam or other places.
I do not blame Putin for this, never have, this is indeed something inherent to current Russian traditional society and I feel for the injustice there.

This isn't a Russian problem, lot's of countries have anti-gay laws, up till punishable with death.

On a human level, I don't get it, why not let teens LGBT's get the information they need to discover who they are? They are Russians too, they are your sons and daughters, your brothers, your sisters, your friends, they deserve to be happy to and sexuality is a major part of that. Your society will create an underground for LGTB's and just vent for themselves and that is quite a cold attitude towards your fellow Russians. I seem to care more for this group than you.

64947 · Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:57 pm

For the time being, and I fully support this, the Russian culture in general does not accept public displays of homosexuals. Personally I and most other Russians, including President Vladimir Putin share the opinon that you may do whatever you want to do (within the framework of the law) in your bedroom, in private. If homosexuals are hunted after and hurt in any way when they were practicing their views in private, I am for the full force of the law to punish those that would hurt them. But personally I, nor most Russians do not want to see these pride parades and whatnot.

A large part of what is holding such a diverse country as Russia together with it's many cultures and religions is traditional values. I am 100% for this.

P.S. Forcing these values down the throats of the mass populace is incredibly counterproductive. Nobody wants to see it and the people would probably have been less opposed to the LGBT community if they didn't pull this shit. The only thing they are accomplishing now in Russia is getting the mass population to not look "neutrally" towards them, but look towards them with hatred and agression.
Makes you think that their goal is not fighting for LGBT rights but to be shit disturbers in general.

Tugger · Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:51 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Where do you see discrimination here? The only thing law prohibits is public promotion of such relationship and way of life. It does not have any other restrictions. Nobody will make a problem if 2 boys want to hold hands in a park, and that's all. Other than this, LGBT rights in Russia on individual level have the same protection as in the West pretty much.

I disagree. Being in a relationship is a public thing, a very public thing. And everyday I promote my relationship with my partner in life, my loved one, by doing the normal things we all do in life together. Isn't your relationship with your love public or do you hide it?

We all publicly "promote" our relationships with our loved ones. From holding hands, to inviting our partners to parties, to discussing what we did this weekend, to planning big weddings or celebrations, to sharing our love publicly with a kiss, to telling others - including children - how much we love each other, to living together and being together and in love in public. This all takes place in front of the world we live in and one should not be required to hide it or be accused of "promoting" their love.

You may disagree and I am not going to think I will convince you otherwise but I hope you hear what am trying to communicate. Homosexuals, LGBT, etc.and their partners and their love for each other is just as real and wonderful and as normal as everyone elses. It deserves the same respect and openness.

Tugg

bagoldex · Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:23 pm

My two favorite things about Russia:

1. Low birth rate
2. High death rate

64947 · Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:40 am

bagoldex wrote:
My two favorite things about Russia:

1. Low birth rate
2. High death rate

You may want to do some research on this subject if you want to present yourself as someone more educatued than the average trailer trash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

Pretty easy. Since you clearly own a computer or at least a smartphone, you wanna open this thing called "Google" or "Wikipedia" and use your keyboard to enter something to the likes of "Demographics of Russia" and then read the results. Then you want to look at things like "Birth Rate" and "Death Rate", but if that is too difficult, there is this little thing called "Growth Rate", if there is a little green arrow, that means the birth rate is more than the death rate.

You are welcome for this lesson on the use of the computer and the internet

Dutchy · Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:50 am

I have decided not to react to these bogus Russia threads anymore, no point in rebottling all these non-sense coming from the Putin groupies/trolls here. It just drains energy and accomplishes nothing.

Have fun guys and have a good 2018!

bagoldex · Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:14 pm

tu204 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
My two favorite things about Russia:

1. Low birth rate
2. High death rate

You may want to do some research on this subject if you want to present yourself as someone more educatued than the average trailer trash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

Pretty easy. Since you clearly own a computer or at least a smartphone, you wanna open this thing called "Google" or "Wikipedia" and use your keyboard to enter something to the likes of "Demographics of Russia" and then read the results. Then you want to look at things like "Birth Rate" and "Death Rate", but if that is too difficult, there is this little thing called "Growth Rate", if there is a little green arrow, that means the birth rate is more than the death rate.

You are welcome for this lesson on the use of the computer and the internet

Wikipedia is literally the worst source one can use to make an argument as anyone can edit articles.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/19/wes ... opulation/

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-populati ... 60413.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2 ... ility.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/18/scie ... -long.html

64947 · Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:12 pm

bagoldex wrote:
tu204 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
My two favorite things about Russia:

1. Low birth rate
2. High death rate

You may want to do some research on this subject if you want to present yourself as someone more educatued than the average trailer trash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

Pretty easy. Since you clearly own a computer or at least a smartphone, you wanna open this thing called "Google" or "Wikipedia" and use your keyboard to enter something to the likes of "Demographics of Russia" and then read the results. Then you want to look at things like "Birth Rate" and "Death Rate", but if that is too difficult, there is this little thing called "Growth Rate", if there is a little green arrow, that means the birth rate is more than the death rate.

You are welcome for this lesson on the use of the computer and the internet

Wikipedia is literally the worst source one can use to make an argument as anyone can edit articles.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/19/wes ... opulation/

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-populati ... 60413.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2 ... ility.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/18/scie ... -long.html

Yeah, so in reply you shoot me some links to articles with opinions. If you bothered to read them even they don't show any actual facts that show some massive population decline. Like your quoted foreign policy article: "Certainly, with a total population of some 146 million people, missing 157,000 is hardly noticeable, and to suggest that Russia is in some sort of demographic death spiral would be disingenuous."

By the way, here are the official statistics. Numbers with no opinions, straight from Rosstat http://www.gks.ru/wps/wcm/connect/rosst ... opulation/

So I wanna return to your original bogus claim about some imaginary crazy high death rate and crazy low birth rate - check your facts before making stupid posts.

bagoldex · Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:30 pm

tu204 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
tu204 wrote:

You may want to do some research on this subject if you want to present yourself as someone more educatued than the average trailer trash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

Pretty easy. Since you clearly own a computer or at least a smartphone, you wanna open this thing called "Google" or "Wikipedia" and use your keyboard to enter something to the likes of "Demographics of Russia" and then read the results. Then you want to look at things like "Birth Rate" and "Death Rate", but if that is too difficult, there is this little thing called "Growth Rate", if there is a little green arrow, that means the birth rate is more than the death rate.

You are welcome for this lesson on the use of the computer and the internet

Wikipedia is literally the worst source one can use to make an argument as anyone can edit articles.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/19/wes ... opulation/

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-populati ... 60413.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2 ... ility.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/18/scie ... -long.html

Yeah, so in reply you shoot me some links to articles with opinions. If you bothered to read them even they don't show any actual facts that show some massive population decline. Like your quoted foreign policy article: "Certainly, with a total population of some 146 million people, missing 157,000 is hardly noticeable, and to suggest that Russia is in some sort of demographic death spiral would be disingenuous."

By the way, here are the official statistics. Numbers with no opinions, straight from Rosstat http://www.gks.ru/wps/wcm/connect/rosst ... opulation/

So I wanna return to your original bogus claim about some imaginary crazy high death rate and crazy low birth rate - check your facts before making stupid posts.

Here ya go …

Birth rate: 11.00/1000

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 4rank.html

Death Rate: 13.5/1000

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... /2066.html

Oh, by the way, your economy sucks too. Might want to work on that.

GDP per capita of $8748, in fine company with St. Lucia and Equatorial Guinea

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... _desc=true

Now I understand why so many of you die of alcoholism.

64947 · Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:20 am

bagoldex wrote:
tu204 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

Wikipedia is literally the worst source one can use to make an argument as anyone can edit articles.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/19/wes ... opulation/

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-populati ... 60413.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2 ... ility.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/18/scie ... -long.html

Yeah, so in reply you shoot me some links to articles with opinions. If you bothered to read them even they don't show any actual facts that show some massive population decline. Like your quoted foreign policy article: "Certainly, with a total population of some 146 million people, missing 157,000 is hardly noticeable, and to suggest that Russia is in some sort of demographic death spiral would be disingenuous."

By the way, here are the official statistics. Numbers with no opinions, straight from Rosstat http://www.gks.ru/wps/wcm/connect/rosst ... opulation/

So I wanna return to your original bogus claim about some imaginary crazy high death rate and crazy low birth rate - check your facts before making stupid posts.

Here ya go …

Birth rate: 11.00/1000

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 4rank.html

Death Rate: 13.5/1000

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... /2066.html

Again pullin numbers out of the arse? I do realise that the level of primary education in the US is pretty far behind pretty much everyone outside of Africa, so I'll help you out here, for free btw.

If you don't want to look like trailer trash or a school kid in arguments that are based on numbers, you have to use undisputed facts in the form of statistics (numbers). In your little CIA factbook that you posted here are estimates for 2017. Previously I stated that I am not interested in seeing estimates if you want to prove some point. The previous links you gave are much better in the sense that they quote official and undisputed facts on the basis of which the author makes conclusions. Problem with those links is that they pretty much disagree with your initial claim.

Thats your second free lesson of the day, btw. Actually read material that give to support your claim. Can't get any worse (more hilarious) to shoot down your own claim with your of references

salttee · Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:49 pm

The British Defense Secretary is going public with his findings on Russian shenanigans; Putin's Russia is showing an unhealthy interest in British infrastructure. Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson has warned that Russia is preparing for actions that would "kill thousands and thousands" of Brits through infrastructure attacks. Russia is in essence, invading western Europe and the US via electronic means, and apparently in Britain they are also using old fashioned reconnaissance and photography to find weak points in British infrastructure. This is is practicing 1930s style Russian aggression with 21st century technology. Putin needs to be put in check.

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-i ... ple-2018-1

WIederling · Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:22 pm

salttee wrote:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-is-ready-to-kill-thousands-and-thousands-of-british-people-2018-1

If true more of an "answer in kind" ?

Dutchy · Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:14 pm

BERLIN — The Dutch domestic intelligence service AIVD had access to the infamous Russian hacking group Cozy Bear for at least a year starting in mid-2014, local media outlets reported Thursday. According to the reports, the Dutch government alerted the United States to Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election after Netherlands-based officials watched the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and other operations by the Russians, including a 2014 State Department hack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... f686015d75

And of course, Russia denied everything......

anrec80 · Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BERLIN — The Dutch domestic intelligence service AIVD had access to the infamous Russian hacking group Cozy Bear for at least a year starting in mid-2014, local media outlets reported Thursday. According to the reports, the Dutch government alerted the United States to Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election after Netherlands-based officials watched the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and other operations by the Russians, including a 2014 State Department hack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... f686015d75

And of course, Russia denied everything......

Not creative. Even statements that Russians elected right-wing populists into a Dutch parliament would have been more interesting and believable.

anrec80 · Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BERLIN — The Dutch domestic intelligence service AIVD had access to the infamous Russian hacking group Cozy Bear for at least a year starting in mid-2014, local media outlets reported Thursday. According to the reports, the Dutch government alerted the United States to Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election after Netherlands-based officials watched the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and other operations by the Russians, including a 2014 State Department hack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... f686015d75

And of course, Russia denied everything......

What to acknowledge here? Dutch intelligence was observing the process of hacking of Americans by Russians in 2016. For some reason nobody cared in 2016 all the way until Democrats screwed not only everything they could have screwed, but much of what they didn't. And it turned out that it's not Democrats who put up a candidate questionable at best and don't have any other generation of leaders, but some mystical "Russian hackers". That alone is silly enough. And now Dutch services "were spying on the process" - people, please, stop putting this comedy show.

salttee · Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:01 am

It is a matter of scale, in 2016 the Dutch didn't know that Russia was trying to undermine all of Western Europe and the US on a massive scale.

And anrec80, while you are cozying up to the Russians, keep in mind that Hillary won the popular vote.
Even if she didn't please the Putin fans like you.

anrec80 · Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:43 am

salttee wrote:
It is a matter of scale, in 2016 the Dutch didn't know that Russia was trying to undermine all of Western Europe and the US on a massive scale.

And anrec80, while you are cozying up to the Russians, keep in mind that Hillary won the popular vote.
Even if she didn't please the Putin fans like you.

Massive scale. Good enough backdating stories. First and foremost - Democrats have been in power for 8 years. Where have they been? Did they do anything to make the "intrusion" they are talking about impossible? And afterwards - did they analyze how it happened, and what needs to get done to protect the state institutions? No, all the whole West does is talks about the "intrusion", and does nothing else. Then - perhaps nothing really happened? And all this - is a loser "blah-blah"?

Yes, Hillary won the popular vote, but that's pretty much it. She nonetheless lost the election legitimately, and some states she could not imagine losing (like Pennsylvania).

Speaking of "undermining" - perhaps it's time to stop complaining? Have Western countries' institutions degraded to the state of those in poorest African countries, so that anybody can elect you your Presidents, parliaments, Prime Ministers? If so - perhaps start fixing things up in your countries? Given "sudden" Trump victory, euro-skeptics in European parliaments - perhaps you got better ways to spend your time than blaming Russia? Because otherwise next election cycle there will be more "meddlers" - both real and imagined? Lots of nations have their interests within Western elites - Israel, Saudi Arabia, China, many others. Perhaps they will elect or appoint the next generation of your leaders?

salttee · Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:50 am

^ ^ ^ ^ Excellent Post ^ ^ ^ ^

But it was even better in the original Russian!

Dutchy · Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:59 am

salttee wrote:
^ ^ ^ ^ Excellent Post ^ ^ ^ ^

But it was even better in the original Russian!

anrec80 · Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:53 pm

salttee wrote:
^ ^ ^ ^ Excellent Post ^ ^ ^ ^

But it was even better in the original Russian!

Hmm - never saw it in the original Russian. I know it’s not uncommon to see the world the way I do in Russia, but even I couldn’t imagine someone thinks precisely as I do; literally to the word. Would love to see the link to the “original post” you are talking about!

Scorpius · Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
BERLIN — The Dutch domestic intelligence service AIVD had access to the infamous Russian hacking group Cozy Bear for at least a year starting in mid-2014, local media outlets reported Thursday. According to the reports, the Dutch government alerted the United States to Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election after Netherlands-based officials watched the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and other operations by the Russians, including a 2014 State Department hack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... f686015d75

And of course, Russia denied everything......

Very sad to see Russia accused of meddling in elections, and these accusations come from countries that destroyed Belgrade, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and Libya. From those who constantly interferes in the internal Affairs of Russia. From those who are constantly trying to influence the elections in Russia to put in the end managed puppets in our government. From those who support military coups in the CIS. I have the impression that the Western world can not give mankind nothing but lies, betrayal and hatred.

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