salttee
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The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:49 pm

ISIS has lost the last of its territory with the fall of Al Kamal in Syria. ISIS had already been expelled from Iraq, with their collapse at Hawija last month and the taking of the last ISIS held town on the Iraqi stretch of the Euphrates (Qaim) last week.

Hezbollah apparently took the lead in the battle against ISIS at Al Kamal. ISIS now will join the other Salafist Jihadists such as al-Qaeda, al-Nusrah, al Shabaab, and the Taliban as stateless revolutionaries.

“The last stronghold of Daesh (Islamic State), Albu Kamal, is free of the Daesh organization,” the (Syrian) commander said.
The commander added that Iraqi Popular Mobilisation Forces also took part in the capture of Albu Kamal, located in Syria near the Iraqi border on the Euphrates river.
Hezbollah were “the foundation in the battle of Albu Kamal”, said the commander, adding that hundreds of the elite forces of the Iran-backed Shi‘ite group took part in the battle.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-midea ... SKBN1D81NM


Soon we will find out if the US is willing to fight for the territory its agents have taken in Syria or if the Syrian Army will reclaim its territory without significant opposition.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:38 pm

Indeed, now they are underground again. Are they successfully out of northern Africa again?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:05 pm

I'm really not sure anyone can claim they are "no more".

As long as Al Baghdadi is still alive, the concept of IS will live on and its 'fighters' will continue to inflict acts of terror on the World.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:16 pm

Its not over until Trump tweets it’s over, it’s gonna be huge!!!
 
petertenthije
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:26 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Its not over until Trump tweets it’s over, it’s gonna be huge!!!

Bush had an aircraft carrier with a mission accomplished sign. Not sure how Trump is going to outdo that, but he will no doubt give it a good try. Maybe project a mission accomplished sign onto the moon?
Attamottamotta!
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
I'm really not sure anyone can claim they are "no more".

As long as Al Baghdadi is still alive, the concept of IS will live on and its 'fighters' will continue to inflict acts of terror on the World.

Indeed. IS may cease to exist, but its ideology will live on in two, three, or more new groups. The same thing happened with the weakening of Al Qaeda, from which IS can draw its roots. That's what makes the so-called War on Terror unwinnable. You can fight bad guys, but it's hard to fight an insurgency, and even harder to fight ideas.

War against fundamentalist terror groups like IS is going to be our reality for decades to come. I won't even call it fundamentalist Islamic terror groups, because as with IS, their motivations and ideology had very little to do with religion. Unfortunately many people don't make that distinction, and instead choose to demonize the religion as a whole, which in my opinion perpetuates the cycle of hatred. Regardless, their belief system will continue to be bastardized in the name of Islam by different groups in different regions using different methods based on lessons learned. These groups adapt much easier and quicker than any government can keep pace, which is why this war is effectively unwinnable.

We'll eventually beat the next group, and the one after, and any further groups to come, but not without suffering more casualties, inciting more conflict, and likely engaged in more warfare.

So, we may have beaten IS, but unfortunately for everyone, it's just going to be on to the next one.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:29 pm

I remember hearing experts claiming that ISIS may morph against its will. When it declared itself as a caliphate, it did so with the promise to its fighters that they weren't simply fighting a political force, but rather to create a caliphate in the region (which later changed to be worldwide). To have lost ground means having to resort to tactics not employed by them (suicide bombings in cities)...that sets it apart from Al Qaeda and others.

Have we seen the end of ISIS in terms of territorial extent? Absolutely. That was made clear when Mosul fell. Have we seen the end of ISIS overall? Not in the slightest. Now it'll be harder to keep track of ISIS and we'll know when and where a cell was operating only after a terrorist claims they acted in their name.

Buckle up. Just like HIV treated with PrEP: it's no longer detectable but it's still lurking somewhere waiting for an opportunity to return.
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MaverickM11
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:40 pm

None of the fundamental problems have been fixed; we've just played whack-a-mole long enough that we think we've been successful. Nothing has changed.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:19 am

atcsundevil wrote:
War against fundamentalist terror groups like IS is going to be our reality for decades to come.

That doesn't necessarily have to be so. Militant Islamic Fundamentalism is a reaction to western encroachment and western colonialism. We just need to back off and the problem will go away. But right now we are the muscle behind Israel's expansion program. If we would like the terrorism to end, we need to convince Israel to change its behavior; either that or walk away from Israel.

Unfortunately, a large segment of the American public seems to be OK with continuous warfare. The Zionist faction of the Jewish community are certainly OK with that.
 
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RoySFlying
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:57 am

salttee wrote:
But right now we are the muscle behind Israel's expansion program.


I think that the issue of Israel is exaggerated when it comes to what drives terrorism by organisations like Al Qaeda and Daesh/ISIS. The origins of those organisations lie less in any hostility to Israel than the conditions in the Arab states. It is of interest that Daesh expressed greater hostility towards Hamas and Hezbollah than to the state of Israel.

Looking back at the history of terrorism in the Arab states during the 1970s, we see that some groups moved to acts of violence because democratic means of change were blocked. Initially such acts were against the local rulers - al-Adou al-Qareeb (the near enemy). Aside from the PLO, any desire to "liberate" Jerusalem was placed on the back burner as it was believed that the corrupt and "impious" leaders in the Arab world could not be relied upon to free Palestine while at the same time enslaving their own subjects. Later the target shifted to the US because the latter was seen as being the principal support of the local rulers. Without attacking al-Adou al-Baeed (the far enemy) it would not be possible to break the power of the local rulers.

Having gone global, it is not surprising that subsequent events saw the spread of violence to the homelands of both the US and its allies. Daesh may have been defeated militarily in Syria and iraq, yet there remain several similar groups in Africa. The struggle to defeat terrorism will continue.

That struggle can not simply be a military and or police response. Governments need to address what causes people to take up an ideology that includes terrorism in the first place.
When I was a boy the world was flat and now, some people still strive to keep it that way.
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:49 am

RoySFlying wrote:
I think that the issue of Israel is exaggerated when it comes to what drives terrorism by organisations like Al Qaeda and Daesh/ISIS. The origins of those organisations lie less in any hostility to Israel than the conditions in the Arab states.
Israel is behind the conditions in the Arab states. Israel is the fuel for the strife in the Middle East; although, Britain and France should be remembered as the root cause of current hatred and animosity in the Middle East.
RoySFlying wrote:
It is of interest that Daesh expressed greater hostility towards Hamas and Hezbollah than to the state of Israel.

Can you provide something to back that statement up? Daesh saw itself as the Salafist Calaphate; to say the least, they were thinking large. You should remember that Hamas is a Palestinian Sunni political party and Hezbollah is a Lebanese Shiia political party. They are quite different.
RoySFlying wrote:
Looking back at the history of terrorism in the Arab states during the 1970s, we see that some groups moved to acts of violence because democratic means of change were blocked. Initially such acts were against the local rulers - al-Adou al-Qareeb (the near enemy). Aside from the PLO, any desire to "liberate" Jerusalem was placed on the back burner as it was believed that the corrupt and "impious" leaders in the Arab world could not be relied upon to free Palestine while at the same time enslaving their own subjects. Later the target shifted to the US because the latter was seen as being the principal support of the local rulers. Without attacking al-Adou al-Baeed (the far enemy) it would not be possible to break the power of the local rulers.
If you're going to go back to the 70s you might as well go back to the late forties when Sayyid Qutb first began resurrecting Islamic fundamentalism. Abdel Nasser died in 1970 and by that time he and Sayyid Qutb had between them placed Islamic Fundamentalism in the forefront of Arab intellectualism, this was the genesis of the Islamic brotherhood which influenced the Saudi madrases. Nasser, Qutb and the Brotherhood all had Israel as a prime motivator.

RoySFlying wrote:
That struggle can not simply be a military and or police response. Governments need to address what causes people to take up an ideology that includes terrorism in the first place.
This I agree with. In fact, this is central to actually dealing with the problem, if one wishes to end the problem as opposed to exploiting the problem.
 
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RoySFlying
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:50 am

salttee wrote:
Can you provide something to back that statement up?


Yes, groups claiming support for Daesh have been critical of Hamas for "failing to implement Shari'ah" and "being soft on Israel". Such groups were responsible for a number of bombing attacks in Gaza.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... gaza-strip
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... s-in-gaza/
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07/20 ... -isis.html

salttee wrote:
You should remember that Hamas is a Palestinian Sunni political party and Hezbollah is a Lebanese Shiia political party. They are quite different.


Absolutely. Daesh's opposition to Hamas is rooted in what it sees as narrow nationalism rather than "Islamism", for want of a better word. The opposition to Hezbollah is part of its wider opposition to those it sees as being apostates - i.e. Shi'a Muslims - and an extension of Iranian power.

I don't wish to imply that Daesh has a love for Israel. Clearly, it doesn't. But it does see organisations like Hamas as being part of the problem, part of the "near enemy."
When I was a boy the world was flat and now, some people still strive to keep it that way.
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:31 am

Roy, your statement:
RoySFlying wrote:
It is of interest that Daesh expressed greater hostility towards Hamas and Hezbollah than to the state of Israel.
Is just plain wrong. Daesh saw itself as the holder of the only true Islam, so any Islamic person who wasn't on board 100% was of course due for criticism. And Hamas doesn't rule by sharia law because as Palestinians they are religious moderates, and of course they don't dwell on enforcement of Sharia laws as daesh advocates. So Hamas would be due for criticism, but to say that daesh holds greater hostility towards Hamas than to the state of Israel is ridiculous.

Hezbollah is a special case, Hezbollah has done as much or more to overthrow daesh than any other single entity including the United States. They have been on the front lines from the beginning.


BTW
I looked at your Guardian link, but let's be real, Fox and Breitbart are thoroughly dishonest ideologues; no serious person would accept either of them as an information source.
 
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:45 am

salttee wrote:
I looked at your Guardian link, but let's be real, Fox and Breitbart are thoroughly dishonest ideologues; no serious person would accept either of them as an information source.


Whether you approve of Breitbart or Fox is immaterial to the fact of events they covered having actually occurred. I deliberately chose to include them because if I had not, someone else might have said exactly the same about whatever other links I provided.

From various sources, it is clear that Daesh's attitude to Hamas went beyond mere criticism. Breitbart and Fox are sympathetic towards Israel and can hardly be said to have a love of Hamas, so why would they feel the need to lie about Daesh? The government in Israel has been at pains to portray Hamas and Daesh as two sides of the same coin. Why would these publishers want to suggest that they might not be?
When I was a boy the world was flat and now, some people still strive to keep it that way.
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:12 am

Breitbart and Fox make things up out of whole cloth. If you want to go on about that, you're talking to yourself, don't waste my time.

Now you say: "From various sources it is clear that Daesh's attitude to Hamas went beyond mere criticism." Your Guardian link doesn't support anything like that. Are you trying to bundle Fox and Breitbart together as "various sources"?

I'll present reality to you again:
Daesh saw itself as the holder of the only true Islam, so any Islamic person who wasn't on board 100% was of course due for criticism. And Hamas doesn't rule by sharia law because as Palestinians they are religious moderates, and of course they don't dwell on enforcement of Sharia laws as daesh advocates. So Hamas would be due for criticism, but to say that daesh holds greater hostility towards Hamas than to the state of Israel is ridiculous.

Understanding it is up to you.
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:39 pm

Maybe it's time for you to recognize that Israel is located in the center of the ME in more ways than one.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:07 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I remember hearing experts claiming that ISIS may morph against its will. When it declared itself as a caliphate, it did so with the promise to its fighters that they weren't simply fighting a political force, but rather to create a caliphate in the region (which later changed to be worldwide). To have lost ground means having to resort to tactics not employed by them (suicide bombings in cities)...that sets it apart from Al Qaeda and others.

Have we seen the end of ISIS in terms of territorial extent? Absolutely. That was made clear when Mosul fell. Have we seen the end of ISIS overall? Not in the slightest. Now it'll be harder to keep track of ISIS and we'll know when and where a cell was operating only after a terrorist claims they acted in their name.

Buckle up. Just like HIV treated with PrEP: it's no longer detectable but it's still lurking somewhere waiting for an opportunity to return.


ISIS is gone, but I do think those that found solace under it's banner are still out there. They will bide their time, perhaps returning to al-Qaeda or another fanatic base. Still others may be finally disillusioned about what a caliphate really means, and may seek peace.

Either way vigilance is required.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
seb146
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:53 pm

As long as IS has an online presence and people still affiliate with them, they are not dead. For years, people kept saying that racism was dead, but look at all the racists in the streets and online constantly. As long as IS has ways to manipulate people, they will not be dead.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:02 pm

ISIS is just a symptom. The problem is militant Islamic fundamentalism. What difference does it make what they call themselves?
 
WIederling
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:28 pm

salttee wrote:
Soon we will find out if the US is willing to fight for the territory its agents have taken in Syria or if the Syrian Army will reclaim its territory without significant opposition.


More interesting is were the US will invest their rescued isis fighters next?
Rohyngia conflict Myanmar ... or first some other place around the Med?
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:35 pm

There is no need to rebut WIederling when he gets into his crazy talk.
 
seb146
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:10 am

WIederling wrote:
salttee wrote:
Soon we will find out if the US is willing to fight for the territory its agents have taken in Syria or if the Syrian Army will reclaim its territory without significant opposition.


More interesting is were the US will invest their rescued isis fighters next?
Rohyngia conflict Myanmar ... or first some other place around the Med?


Where has oil?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
Pyrex
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:39 am

salttee wrote:
Maybe it's time for you to recognize that Israel is located in the center of the ME in more ways than one.


Sure, it is not like Islam is an expansionist military ideology that, since the time of Mohammad himself, through the Sultans, to Al-Baghdadi, has constantly tried to conquer and convert by force everyone around them.

The entire number of Arabs killed by Israel in its 70 year history, most of them soldiers in a regular army trying to wipe them off the map or terrorists attempting to do the same by different means, would be considered a good month in Syria. All of Israel's wars combined would likely not even break the Top 20 of Muslim-on-Muslim wars since the foundation of the state of Israel. But by all means, keep pretending Israel is the problem in the Middle East just because, unlike what Europe is doing, this time around they are not willing to roll over and let themselves be wiped out.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
seb146
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:23 am

Pyrex wrote:
salttee wrote:
Maybe it's time for you to recognize that Israel is located in the center of the ME in more ways than one.


Sure, it is not like Islam is an expansionist military ideology that, since the time of Mohammad himself, through the Sultans, to Al-Baghdadi, has constantly tried to conquer and convert by force everyone around them.

The entire number of Arabs killed by Israel in its 70 year history, most of them soldiers in a regular army trying to wipe them off the map or terrorists attempting to do the same by different means, would be considered a good month in Syria. All of Israel's wars combined would likely not even break the Top 20 of Muslim-on-Muslim wars since the foundation of the state of Israel. But by all means, keep pretending Israel is the problem in the Middle East just because, unlike what Europe is doing, this time around they are not willing to roll over and let themselves be wiped out.


I don't think it is Israel simply being. I think it is Israel, demanding by force, those who they believe are enemies be weakened to the point of surrender. And, let's not forget the different sects of both Islam and Judaism that have their issues.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:02 am

Pyrex wrote:
Sure, it is not like Islam is an expansionist military ideology that, since the time of Mohammad himself, through the Sultans, to Al-Baghdadi, has constantly tried to conquer and convert by force everyone around them.

If you would like to discuss the history of the ME region I would be happy to oblige; however, if you want to accuse Islam of excess use of force then you'll have to make the case that they were exceptionally bloodthirsty at any point in time, and in order to do that you'll need to look at the context: see what everybody else was doing at the time. Compare behaviors.

When Muhammid's army first encountered the West in February of 634 about 50 miles south west of Jerusalem, the Roman army was a shambles They had been in at war Persia for the last thirty years; and Empire had been strained to the breaking point. The Army disbanded after the Persian Army had collapsed. In the meantime, the empire had come under attack from hordes of Avars from the east who were one of the toughest tribal groups the Romans had ever encountered. In normal times, the Roman Army would have run roughshod over the Muslims at Dathin, Bosra and Yarmouk; but the Roman army in 634 was exhausted. So Muhammad's army won and the Romans never recovered.

Whatever else you say about Muhammad, you have to give him credit for having great luck. He marched out of the desert just at the time when the Roman and Persian armies had destroyed each other. He also had the good luck to find that the Romans had betrayed all their would be allies in the region notably, the Arabic tribe of Ghassnids and the Jewish communities. The Roman emperor Heraclius had recently conducted "a general massacre of the Jewish population" so they welcomed the Muslims. The Ghassnids had suffered severe religious persecution from Constantinople.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_re ... _Heraclius

I don't want to make too much hay about Heraclius' massacre of the Jewish population, because that was really a small blip in the behavior of the Roman Empire over the prior several hundred years, I can go into detail if you want to hear some of it.

But the point is that the Muslims of the seventh century were no more bloodthirsty than anyone else anywhere in that historical era.

We can examine any period in history and compare the behavior of the Islamic world with the non-Islamic world and I'm sure it will turn out about the same. Remember, we're going to have to account for things like the Napoleon, The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades and such, there are some pretty nasty historical periods in western history, I can't imagine you'll actually find a period where the Muslims were more militant or whatever than the west.

Pyrex wrote:
The entire number of Arabs killed by Israel in its 70 year history, most of them soldiers in a regular army trying to wipe them off the map or terrorists attempting to do the same by different means, would be considered a good month in Syria.
If your going to tabulate the casualties created by the Zionists vs the Palestinians, your going to have to go back farther than the 1948 war; you'll need to take into account activities that have been taking place continuously since about 1880. You're going to have to balance Palestinian behavior against actions taken by many Zionist militant groups including the earliest, the Bar-Giora, who had a historically inaccurate and quite jingoistic slogan: "In fire and blood did Judea fall; in blood and fire Judea shall rise" (this was circa 1907, before the Palestinians even understood that the "refugees" weren't really refugees, they were settlers on a mission of infiltration and conquest.) Later came Vladimir Jabotinsky et al.

Pyrex wrote:
All of Israel's wars combined .............................

We'll soon see if you are capable of discussing the actual history of the events you seem to be interested in.
 
PayaLebar
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
I'm really not sure anyone can claim they are "no more".

As long as Al Baghdadi is still alive, the concept of IS will live on and its 'fighters' will continue to inflict acts of terror on the World.


As long as they have deep pockets, they will be around for a long time. The only way to overcome this evil is through good and proper education. To believe that a God can have enemies that needs human intervention to overcome His adversaries is beyond absurd.
 
PayaLebar
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:15 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
I won't even call it fundamentalist Islamic terror groups, because as with IS, their motivations and ideology had very little to do with religion.


As an ex-Muslim of Arab origin, I totally disagree with you. Apparently, you've not studied the Quran in its original Arabic Language.

The Arabic Trilateral Root Verb for KILL or SLAY ((ق ت ل)) occurs 170 times in the Quran. Here's the proof: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:20 pm

PayaLebar wrote:
As long as they have deep pockets, they will be around for a long time.
The Islamic State hierarchy doesn't have "deep pockets", just their Saudi benefactors.

PayaLebar wrote:
The only way to overcome this evil is through good and proper education.
Who gets to decide what is "good and proper education"? Therein lies a major problem.
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:22 pm

PayaLebar wrote:
As an ex-Muslim of Arab origin, I totally disagree with you. Apparently, you've not studied the Quran in its original Arabic Language.

The Arabic Trilateral Root Verb for KILL or SLAY ((ق ت ل)) occurs 170 times in the Quran. Here's the proof: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl

How many times does "kill" appear in the Tanakh aka Old Testament?
 
PayaLebar
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:26 pm

salttee wrote:
their Saudi benefactors..


Of course. They are the major sponsor to the worldwide terrorism. But they are not alone. The Arab Oil Oligarch are heavy funders.


salttee wrote:
Who gets to decide what is "good and proper education"?


Easy peasy. Avoid sending your children for education in Muslim Countries where the standard is exceptionally low.
 
PayaLebar
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:31 pm

salttee wrote:
How many times does "kill" appear in the Tanakh aka Old Testament?


Ask an ex-Jew.

I am an ex-Muslim of Arab origin. I suggest that you focus on what is within the Quran instead of justifying Islam's aggression based on what is within the Tanakh.
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:38 pm

PayaLebar wrote:
I am an ex-Muslim of Arab origin. I suggest that you focus on what is within the Quran instead of justifying Islam's aggression based on what is within the Tanakh.

I don't care what you claim to be. You obviously don't understand that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not three separate religions, they are three variations of the same religion. Every sin you can cast on Islam can be found in either of the other two Abrahamic religions.
 
PayaLebar
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:38 pm

WIederling wrote:
Rohyngia


The Rohingyas claim that they have been persecuted since the Independence of Myanmar (Burma) on 4th January 1948. Of course, as a Humanist, I am deeply concerned BUT why have these claims been made in the last 15-20 years? Where were the Rohingyas when all of South East Asia were flooded with Vietnamese Boat People way back in the 70s?
 
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:41 pm

salttee wrote:
Every sin you can cast on Islam can be found in either of the other two Abrahamic religions.


And that is why I am now a Humanist.
 
salttee
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:47 pm

And that is why I am now a Humanist.


BTW
Pride is one of the sins exemplified in the Abrahamic religions.
 
PayaLebar
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:55 pm

salttee wrote:
the Abrahamic religions.


I am done with all the Abrahamic Nonsense.

In the meantime, please listen carefully to the lyrics of this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgFZfRVaww
 
WIederling
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:04 pm

salttee wrote:
... that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not three separate religions, they are three variations of the same religion.
Every sin you can cast on Islam can be found in either of the other two Abrahamic religions.


Which is the foundation for really getting at each others throat.
3 times "This is our god" and "we'll never share" :-)

( monotheism as such is bad enough.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:41 pm

PayaLebar wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
I won't even call it fundamentalist Islamic terror groups, because as with IS, their motivations and ideology had very little to do with religion.


As an ex-Muslim of Arab origin, I totally disagree with you. Apparently, you've not studied the Quran in its original Arabic Language.

The Arabic Trilateral Root Verb for KILL or SLAY ((ق ت ل)) occurs 170 times in the Quran. Here's the proof: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl

I don't need to study something in its original language to have an understanding. The word "kill" could be written on the cover of the Quran, but that still provides very little explanation of IS or its motivations, so that's irrelevant.

Many religious scholars and observers have noted for years that IS is driven by a perverted form of Islam, but their primary motivations tend to be for financial or other reasons. Their actions are indeed rooted in strict religious form, but their actions are done merely under a religious pretext without having any particular theological system in place. Many IS fighters have little understanding of Islam itself, and instead enlist to rape, pillage, and plunder in the name of religion. I'm not saying IS has nothing to do with Islam at face value, but it's wrong to assert that their motivations and ideology are solely or even mostly based on religion. It's chaos blamed on religion, not explained by religion.

The Bible also uses the word "kill" hundreds of times, but like Islam, it also says you shouldn't do it. Someone can't claim to be devoutly religious if they cherry pick from the text. That's not following a religion, that's creating your own. Even the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were similarly rooted in religion, but the actual motivations were far less pious.

From the Middle East Policy Council:
...it is misleading to focus on the religion of ISIS; it implies that the group is organized around some well-worked-out theological system that most of ISIS’ members subscribe to, having joined the organization for primarily religious purposes. There is absolutely no evidence to substantiate these premises.

Rather than joining out of religious conviction, many recruits are driven to the organization for financial reasons.


From Newsweek:
To conclude, first, it is politics and conviction with a succinct message that creates an essence of belonging, brotherhood and adventure, and it is not always primarily religion that underpins both jihadists and other extremist groups.



http://www.mepc.org/commentary/dont-thi ... ious-terms
https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek ... 97%3famp=1
 
PayaLebar
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:28 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:04 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
PayaLebar wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
I won't even call it fundamentalist Islamic terror groups, because as with IS, their motivations and ideology had very little to do with religion.


As an ex-Muslim of Arab origin, I totally disagree with you. Apparently, you've not studied the Quran in its original Arabic Language.

The Arabic Trilateral Root Verb for KILL or SLAY ((ق ت ل)) occurs 170 times in the Quran. Here's the proof: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl

I don't need to study something in its original language to have an understanding. The word "kill" could be written on the cover of the Quran, but that still provides very little explanation of IS or its motivations, so that's irrelevant.

Many religious scholars and observers have noted for years that IS is driven by a perverted form of Islam, but their primary motivations tend to be for financial or other reasons. Their actions are indeed rooted in strict religious form, but their actions are done merely under a religious pretext without having any particular theological system in place. Many IS fighters have little understanding of Islam itself, and instead enlist to rape, pillage, and plunder in the name of religion. I'm not saying IS has nothing to do with Islam at face value, but it's wrong to assert that their motivations and ideology are solely or even mostly based on religion. It's chaos blamed on religion, not explained by religion.

The Bible also uses the word "kill" hundreds of times, but like Islam, it also says you shouldn't do it. Someone can't claim to be devoutly religious if they cherry pick from the text. That's not following a religion, that's creating your own. Even the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were similarly rooted in religion, but the actual motivations were far less pious.

From the Middle East Policy Council:
...it is misleading to focus on the religion of ISIS; it implies that the group is organized around some well-worked-out theological system that most of ISIS’ members subscribe to, having joined the organization for primarily religious purposes. There is absolutely no evidence to substantiate these premises.

Rather than joining out of religious conviction, many recruits are driven to the organization for financial reasons.


From Newsweek:
To conclude, first, it is politics and conviction with a succinct message that creates an essence of belonging, brotherhood and adventure, and it is not always primarily religion that underpins both jihadists and other extremist groups.



http://www.mepc.org/commentary/dont-thi ... ious-terms
https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek ... 97%3famp=1


I am not discussing the Bible, the Crusade, the Spanish Inquisition, MEPC or even Newsweek. My sole reference is the Muslim scripture, which is in Arabic - a language that you have admitted to having no competency at all. So, why are you afraid to use the Quran in order to prove me wrong? Isn't the Quran the source of guidance for Muslims? Can't you convince yourself that there is no fault in the Quran?
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:07 pm

PayaLebar wrote:
I am not discussing the Bible, the Crusade, the Spanish Inquisition, MEPC or even Newsweek. My sole reference is the Muslim scripture, which is in Arabic - a language that you have admitted to having no competency at all. So, why are you afraid to use the Quran in order to prove me wrong? Isn't the Quran the source of guidance for Muslims? Can't you convince yourself that there is no fault in the Quran?

Would you please explain precisely what you mean when you say ".....there is no fault in the Quran"?

Please tell me, also, whether you consider the translation of the Quran into English by N. J. Dawood (1956 with later revisions) to be reasonably accurate.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
PayaLebar
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:28 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:58 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Would you please explain precisely what you mean when you say ".....there is no fault in the Quran"?


I was merely encouraging 'atcsundevil' to study the Quran and convince himself that it is truly divine and not written by men.

BobPatterson wrote:
PayaLebar wrote:
Please tell me, also, whether you consider the translation of the Quran into English by N. J. Dawood (1956 with later revisions) to be reasonably accurate.


I have never heard of NJ Dawood's translation. There is no single translation that can be termed as 'reasonably accurate'; however, the Reformist Quran is about as close to the truth as you can get. Here is the link: http://www.studyquran.org/resources/Qur ... lation.pdf
Last edited by PayaLebar on Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PayaLebar
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:28 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:59 am

Accidentally duplicated the reply. Moderator, please delete this post.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3146
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Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:43 am

PayaLebar wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Would you please explain precisely what you mean when you say ".....there is no fault in the Quran"?


I was merely encouraging 'atcsundevil' to study the Quran and convince himself that it is truly divine and not written by men.

BobPatterson wrote:
PayaLebar wrote:
Please tell me, also, whether you consider the translation of the Quran into English by N. J. Dawood (1956 with later revisions) to be reasonably accurate.


I have never heard of NJ Dawood's translation. There is no single translation that can be termed as 'reasonably accurate'; however, the Reformist Quran is about as close to the truth as you can get. Here is the link: http://www.studyquran.org/resources/Qur ... lation.pdf

Thank you for the response. The Dawood translation may be, or once was, the most available work in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._J._Dawood

I am unaware of anything that has been written that was not written by man (or woman). Nor do I accept that religious texts are revealed to chosen individuals by unseen deities.

I am puzzled to understand how a humanist can think that a manuscript is "truly divine and not written by men".
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
PayaLebar
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:28 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:14 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
I am puzzled to understand how a humanist can think that a manuscript is "truly divine and not written by men".


And where have I, as an ex-Muslim, indicated that I consider the Quran as 'truly divine and not written by men'? I suggest that you scroll up and read from my first reply.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3146
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:07 pm

PayaLebar wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
I am puzzled to understand how a humanist can think that a manuscript is "truly divine and not written by men".


And where have I, as an ex-Muslim, indicated that I consider the Quran as 'truly divine and not written by men'? I suggest that you scroll up and read from my first reply.

Since I cited your words in Post #43, you can have no doubt what I based my question on. It was in turn based on your post # 41:

"I was merely encouraging 'atcsundevil' to study the Quran and convince himself that it is truly divine and not written by men."

Now, your words may be interpreted (as may be the Quran and Tanakh) in more than one way.

I was asking for you to declare yourself more precisely, to affirm or to deny that YOU believe the Quran to be "truly divine.......".
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
PayaLebar
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:28 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:37 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Since I cited your words in Post #43, you can have no doubt what I based my question on. It was in turn based on your post # 41:

"I was merely encouraging 'atcsundevil' to study the Quran and convince himself that it is truly divine and not written by men."


You do understand that the statement I made is just a hyperbole?
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 1547
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:57 am

PayaLebar wrote:
You do understand that the statement I made is just a hyperbole?

Everything you say comes off as ungrounded. How do you expect people to separate the hyperbole from the horseshit?
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3146
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:02 am

PayaLebar wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Since I cited your words in Post #43, you can have no doubt what I based my question on. It was in turn based on your post # 41:

"I was merely encouraging 'atcsundevil' to study the Quran and convince himself that it is truly divine and not written by men."


You do understand that the statement I made is just a hyperbole?

I do understand that you will not answer a direct question.

I further understand you to think that, as an Ex-Muslim who reads and understands Arabic, you have an appreciation of the Quran superior to someone who reads it only in a scholarly translation.

I don't think that line of logic is necessarily true.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
PayaLebar
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:28 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:57 am

salttee wrote:
Everything you say comes off as ungrounded. How do you expect people to separate the hyperbole from the horseshit?


This is horseshit to me - a 'God' complaining about having enemies:
8:60: "And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of STEEDS OF WAR by which you may terrify the ENEMY OF ALLAH and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged."

Tell me HOW can an Almighty, All-Powerful, All Knowing God who claims to have created the entire Universe, complain about having ENEMIES, which HE Himself created??? Is He not capable of rectifying His MISTAKES???
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 1547
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: The Islamic State is no more

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:02 am

You're the follower of Abrahamic religion, not me.
Have you any idea how out of place it is for you to ask me a question like that?

How old are you?

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