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Tugger
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:55 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
The good guy can't be everywhere at once, but having more good guys out there wouldn't hurt.

Woudln't having fewer guns out there also not hurt?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
WIederling
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
The good guy can't be everywhere at once, but having more good guys out there wouldn't hurt.

Woudln't having fewer guns out there also not hurt?


As long as that society sees guns as the ultimate kind of dick to wave around probably not.

With an exposed nipple causing more uproar than a bunch of kids mowed down like california lawn
IMU they have to work towards a more relaxed attitude towards sex before you can deball them
from their guns.
Murphy is an optimist
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It was not a "gun free zone"


I stand corrected; their website and bylaws do not specify the church as being a designated "gun free zone"

http://www.ssfb.net/

It is interesting to note, however, that churchgoers cannot simply carry their own weapons, and a new law in TX only recently permitted churches to allow them to select teams of trained congregants to firearms instead of hiring private security:

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/New-L ... 08003.html

Fair-use excerpt:

Security at churches has been top of mind after horrific scenes like the 1999 tragedy at Wedgewood Baptist in Fort Worth and more recently in Charleston, South Carolina.

"You can't just tell everybody bring your guns to church and here we go, it needs to be people who are legally allowed to carry," said retired Hurst Police Officer and church security expert of Sheepdog Seminars, Jimmy Meeks. He believes the new law will soon give churches more choices for security.

Under current legislation, in order for churches to have armed security they must hire a private licensed company or officer. The new bill will allow congregations to make up their own security teams with members who are legally allowed to carry a gun on a volunteer basis only, but that person cannot wear a uniform or badge portraying themselves as "security."


MaverickM11 wrote:
He was stopped by a self inflicted gunshot.


Not entirely accurate.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/texas- ... index.html

...he was confronted and shot by an armed resident, Stephen Willeford. After Kelley was shot, he called his father, telling him he didn't think he was going to make it, Martin said. That's when Kelley shot himself.

So he was actually stopped by the "good guy with a gun," Stephen Willeford. His life subsequently ended by his own hand, but he was stopped, for all intents and purposes, by Mr. Willeford.


The good guy with the gun was far to late to save 26 people, the god guy failed, the bad guy with the gun had already finished up his slaughtering and was heading off.

As always the bar is low with the NRA. Don't worry! The good guy with the gun will eventually stop the bad guy after he mows down dozens. How 'bout not giving the bad guy a gun in the first place? But then the NRA and republicans wouldn't get their blood money and that would make the baby Jesus cry :rotfl:

Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
The good guy can't be everywhere at once, but having more good guys out there wouldn't hurt.

Woudln't having fewer guns out there also not hurt?

Tugg

Stop being rational. Now is not the time.

WIederling wrote:
Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
The good guy can't be everywhere at once, but having more good guys out there wouldn't hurt.

Woudln't having fewer guns out there also not hurt?


As long as that society sees guns as the ultimate kind of dick to wave around probably not.

With an exposed nipple causing more uproar than a bunch of kids mowed down like california lawn
IMU they have to work towards a more relaxed attitude towards sex before you can deball them
from their guns.

For the record, dildos are still illegal in Texas.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Tugger
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:53 pm

casinterest wrote:
New update.
The Air Force did not notify the FBI about the domestic abuse court marital. This would have been a disqualifying offense that could have kept the shooter from purchasing the gun.

The current discussion seems to have missed this point.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
WIederling
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
New update.
The Air Force did not notify the FBI about the domestic abuse court marital. This would have been a disqualifying offense that could have kept the shooter from purchasing the gun.

The current discussion seems to have missed this point.


"disqualified from purchasing the gun"

Can this actually be made to stick?
( my current impression is that these background checks
have fig-leaf character and can be cirumvented easily. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Tugger
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:25 pm

WIederling wrote:
Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
New update.
The Air Force did not notify the FBI about the domestic abuse court marital. This would have been a disqualifying offense that could have kept the shooter from purchasing the gun.

The current discussion seems to have missed this point.


"disqualified from purchasing the gun"

Can this actually be made to stick?
( my current impression is that these background checks
have fig-leaf character and can be cirumvented easily. )

Yes, it sticks. Laws work. Gun control rules work. But as you note there are elements that need to be addressed, loopholes that need to be closed.

Sound comprehensive laws and regulations need to be passed and if there are flaws the law and regulations need to be amended. The problem arises when those that suffer "gun control hysteria" (the people that call anyone who supports laws regarding the purchase and ownership and use of guns "Gun Grabbers" or claim that all guns will be taken if laws are implemented) cannot think for themselves and live only in fear of "what if". People in the USA can and do own many firearms safely and legally and use them regularly and safely. This will not end so it is just people being irrational and falling for the gun lobby's version of "Main Stream Media" hype about the dangers of sounds laws and regulations for firearms.

I always say that everyone I know in my family that owns and uses a gun supports gun control, just as the "good guy with a gun" in this case who was an NRA gun safety instructor. People support the safe use and ownership of guns. My family will not allow just anyone to be with them with a firearm, they have to know you and the gun are safe. From what I can tell it is about marketing power and making money of the the fears of people that leads to such an over hyped debate about gun laws. As much as some say the left is "clutching pearls" on certain issues, the same is true for "the right" about firearms: "Oh my! If we allow limitations on guns, if we allow gun control, all our guns will be taken! Oh my, I think I may faint!".

Gun safety, gun control, and the laws and regulations that support both that and go after criminal use of firearms, is a good thing. Something that is needed. Of course we need to be ready for the fact that neither side will be happy with the results, one will claim its too much and the other that more must be done.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:33 pm

Please stay on topic and avoid personal discussion. If you disagree with someone politically, that's fine, but attacking them for it probably won't get anyone anywhere.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

It would appear that the rampage had already ended, the good guy was too late to the party.


Dude, just admit you're wrong about this already. Read on:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas- ... index.html

Fair-use excerpt:

The gunman eventually made his way to the back pew, where Brown's mother was hiding, "and started shooting the lady next to her multiple times," Brown said.
Brown's mother was certain she would be next, "and her life was about to end." "Then somebody with a gun showed up at the front of the church (and) caught the shooter's attention," Brown said. "And he left, and that was the end of the ordeal."


This bastard would have gone on killing at will if not for the "good guy with a gun" showing up and distracting him from going pew by pew looking for more victims.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Tugger
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:42 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It would appear that the rampage had already ended, the good guy was too late to the party.


Dude, just admit you're wrong about this already. Read on:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas- ... index.html

Fair-use excerpt:

The gunman eventually made his way to the back pew, where Brown's mother was hiding, "and started shooting the lady next to her multiple times," Brown said.
Brown's mother was certain she would be next, "and her life was about to end." "Then somebody with a gun showed up at the front of the church (and) caught the shooter's attention," Brown said. "And he left, and that was the end of the ordeal."


This bastard would have gone on killing at will if not for the "good guy with a gun" showing up and distracting him from going pew by pew looking for more victims.

Are also able to admit that effective gun laws in this case in particular, would have saved even more people? Loopholes have been prevented from being looked at, things like what allowed the shooter to buy a gun, could have and should have been addressed.

Gun laws did not prevent the "good guy" from owning a gun and using it against the bad guy. So you should not abject to improving the laws.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:08 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Awful, just awful. What the hell is the matter with people?

Interesting to note that someone who was ineligible to own a firearm somehow had one, a designated “gun free zone” only protected the shooter, and yes, he was ultimately stopped by a good guy with a gun.


Excellent, the shooter was stopped. I mean he killed around 30 people first but hey, it was stopped.

The easy saying is 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted'. Are you any closer to finding any evidence that mass shootings are prevented by people with guns? Because if that's the case we should really be hearing about them by now.

And 'gun free zones' don't work when there are no border checks and no regulations.

A gentle reminder: in the UK we've now gone 7910 days without a mass shooting in the UK. Such a failure...
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:11 pm

bgm wrote:
Time to break out the handy "Mass shooting in US checklist":

1. Send thoughts & prayers but not actually do anything useful :checkmark:

2. Argue over semantics of the term "assault rifle" :checkmark:

3. Argue over semantics of the term "terrorist" - if Muslim use it, if Christian/white use term "lone wolf" "mentally ill" "troubled past" :checkmark:

4. Congress does nothing but NRA increases donations just in case :checkmark:

5. Wait for next one, rinse, repeat :checkmark:


Er... excuse me, I'm offended that you forgot the most important part.

OVER MY COLD DEAD HANDS.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:30 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It would appear that the rampage had already ended, the good guy was too late to the party.


Dude, just admit you're wrong about this already. Read on:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas- ... index.html

Fair-use excerpt:

The gunman eventually made his way to the back pew, where Brown's mother was hiding, "and started shooting the lady next to her multiple times," Brown said.
Brown's mother was certain she would be next, "and her life was about to end." "Then somebody with a gun showed up at the front of the church (and) caught the shooter's attention," Brown said. "And he left, and that was the end of the ordeal."


This bastard would have gone on killing at will if not for the "good guy with a gun" showing up and distracting him from going pew by pew looking for more victims.


The instant 4 people have been shot and a shooting becomes a mass shooting, it is too late. 'Good guys with guns' do not stop enough mass shootings, because they happen all the time. This shooting is number 378 this year according to one source. If 'good guys with guns' are the solution then you should have no problems pulling up hundreds of occasions where a mass shooting was prevented by a citizen with a gun.

Stopping someone once they've already massacred people is virtually useless. Prevention is definitely better than cure and as usual you offer sweet FA for ways to prevent mass shootings.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:44 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Awful, just awful. What the hell is the matter with people?

Interesting to note that someone who was ineligible to own a firearm somehow had one, a designated “gun free zone” only protected the shooter, and yes, he was ultimately stopped by a good guy with a gun.


Excellent, the shooter was stopped. I mean he killed around 30 people first but hey, it was stopped.

The easy saying is 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted'. Are you any closer to finding any evidence that mass shootings are prevented by people with guns? Because if that's the case we should really be hearing about them by now.

And 'gun free zones' don't work when there are no border checks and no regulations.

A gentle reminder: in the UK we've now gone 7910 days without a mass shooting in the UK. Such a failure...

Almost 8000 days without a mass shooting?? What kind of illiberal kind of pinko society is that? Don't you want the freedom of the NRA terrorists spending $200M buying government officials so you can have millions dead from guns? ISIS couldn't even dream of killing that many Americans.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:02 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Almost 8000 days without a mass shooting?? What kind of illiberal kind of pinko society is that?


It's terrible here since the gubmint took away all our gunz. :liar:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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afcjets
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:25 pm

Tugger wrote:
The problem arises when those that suffer "gun control hysteria" (the people that call anyone who supports laws regarding the purchase and ownership and use of guns "Gun Grabbers" or claim that all guns will be taken if laws are implemented) cannot think for themselves and live only in fear of "what if".


According to many on the left a more terrifying what if has already happened, so naturally it makes sense that these leftists would want access to the most powerful assault weapons possible.

tommy1808 wrote:
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
salttee
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:39 pm

Not! The progressives are smart enough to realize that taking on the government with guns is not possible or desirable.

Now if we could only get the dimwit gun nuts to come to the same realization.............
 
afcjets
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:44 pm

salttee wrote:
Not! The progressives are smart enough to realize that taking on the government with guns is not possible or desirable.

Now if we could only get the dimwit gun nuts to come to the same realization.............


Undesirable to take on Nazi soilders with assault weapons? I am sure there are many who would disagree with you.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:24 am

WIederling wrote:
Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
New update.
The Air Force did not notify the FBI about the domestic abuse court marital. This would have been a disqualifying offense that could have kept the shooter from purchasing the gun.

The current discussion seems to have missed this point.


"disqualified from purchasing the gun"

Can this actually be made to stick?
( my current impression is that these background checks
have fig-leaf character and can be cirumvented easily. )

Even if the FBI was properly notified, he could have gotten a gun through a private sale or a gun show. It's obviously not that hard to get a gun in the USA.

EA CO AS wrote:
This bastard would have gone on killing at will if not for the "good guy with a gun" showing up and distracting him from going pew by pew looking for more victims.

Arguable, but he'd already murdered half the church. Bit late--plus more mass shooters have been stopped by unarmed citizens than armed citizens. If the good guy with a gun nonsense was true, we wouldn't have police shot in the line of duty.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
afcjets
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:04 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
If the good guy with a gun nonsense was true, we wouldn't have police shot in the line of duty.


Hopefully most people in the US do not consider someone who shoots a police officer to be the good guy with a gun.
 
Vladex
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:48 am

afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
If the good guy with a gun nonsense was true, we wouldn't have police shot in the line of duty.


Hopefully most people in the US do not consider someone who shoots a police officer to be the good guy with a gun.


Considering that politicians have a "right" to make and break any laws and to excuse themselves from those laws and the police are there to follow any and all orders, what recourse is there to stop a tyranny other than shooting politicians and police?
 
seb146
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:24 am

The right is now wetting themselves because of the "good guy with a gun" finally came true.

Problem is: the mass shooter had already mowed down a church full of people before he was shot by this so-called "good guy." How do you ammosexuals and NRA junkies defend this? The killings had already happened and you all are gleeful.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
B777LRF
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:07 am

Sandy Hook.

When the wholesale slaughter of children didn't do a single thing to address the issue, it's a lost cause. They'll keep on murdering each other, and be happy with it, because a few lines of words in a 300-year old document tells the ammosexuals they can have all the guns they like.

The New Yorker has an excellent article on the subject, basically debunking all the theories about mental health, violent entertainment and other excuses. At the end of the day, the only thing that separates the US from the rest of the Western world, is the huge amount of guns in private ownership. To wit, 'we' all suffer from about the same level of mental health issues; watch the same movies and play the same games. But only in the US do you have these mass killings so frequently, and only in the US do you have so many guns in private ownership. Fact is, if they got rid of their guns they'd see a dramatic decline in mass murders. But that is, as proven following Sandy Hook, not what they want.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
WIederling
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:54 am

afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
If the good guy with a gun nonsense was true, we wouldn't have police shot in the line of duty.


Hopefully most people in the US do not consider someone who shoots a police officer to be the good guy with a gun.


ambivalent reading comprehension. :-)

Policeman with gun is by definition "a good guy".
( This definition might have limited reach. probably not valid for white on black.)

US probably is the best chance you can get worldwide to be shot by police. Sad thing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
B777LRF
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Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:57 am

    WIederling wrote:
    US probably is the best chance you can get worldwide to be shot by police. Sad thing.


    Think you'll find that 'honour' goes to the Phillippines, following the rule of hardliner Duterte. No judge, no jury; if you're 'suspected' of being a drug dealer you'll be shot on sight. Not just by the police, but by so-called 'vigilante' groups acting under the implicit approval of the Duterte government. And shot they have been, in their thousands. Whether or not all those killed were actually drug dealers is anyone's guess; logic would dictate a very large number of them were simply the 'wrong' kind of criminials, i.e. those not paying their bribes, or retailing their wares using the 'wrong' wholeseller. Or just someone a person in a position doesn't fancy - accuse him of being a drug dealer, shoot him in the face and all's good.
    From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
     
    WIederling
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    Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

    Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:09 am

    B777LRF wrote:
      WIederling wrote:
      US probably is the best chance you can get worldwide to be shot by police. Sad thing.


      Think you'll find that 'honour' goes to the Phillippines, following the rule of hardliner Duterte.


      Yes, I overlooked that.

      Alleged numbers are 7000. ( what time span? looked: less than a year, outch. )
      US police shootings reach ~1000/a. Apparently every year.
      ref: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... f37f646383
      Murphy is an optimist
       
      B777LRF
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      Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

      Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:24 am

      B777LRF wrote:
        WIederling wrote:
        US probably is the best chance you can get worldwide to be shot by police. Sad thing.


        Think you'll find that 'honour' goes to the Phillippines, following the rule of hardliner Duterte. No judge, no jury; if you're 'suspected' of being a drug dealer you'll be shot on sight. Not just by the police, but by so-called 'vigilante' groups acting under the implicit approval of the Duterte government. And shot they have been, in their thousands. Whether or not all those killed were actually drug dealers is anyone's guess; logic would dictate a very large number of them were simply the 'wrong' kind of criminials, i.e. those not paying their bribes, or retailing their wares using the 'wrong' wholeseller. Or just someone a person in a position doesn't fancy - accuse him of being a drug dealer, shoot him in the face and all's good.
        From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
         
        Kiwirob
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        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:26 am

        MrHMSH wrote:
        EA CO AS wrote:
        Kiwirob wrote:

        It would appear that the rampage had already ended, the good guy was too late to the party.


        Dude, just admit you're wrong about this already. Read on:

        http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/us/texas- ... index.html

        Fair-use excerpt:

        The gunman eventually made his way to the back pew, where Brown's mother was hiding, "and started shooting the lady next to her multiple times," Brown said.
        Brown's mother was certain she would be next, "and her life was about to end." "Then somebody with a gun showed up at the front of the church (and) caught the shooter's attention," Brown said. "And he left, and that was the end of the ordeal."


        This bastard would have gone on killing at will if not for the "good guy with a gun" showing up and distracting him from going pew by pew looking for more victims.


        The instant 4 people have been shot and a shooting becomes a mass shooting, it is too late. 'Good guys with guns' do not stop enough mass shootings, because they happen all the time. This shooting is number 378 this year according to one source. If 'good guys with guns' are the solution then you should have no problems pulling up hundreds of occasions where a mass shooting was prevented by a citizen with a gun.

        Stopping someone once they've already massacred people is virtually useless. Prevention is definitely better than cure and as usual you offer sweet FA for ways to prevent mass shootings.


        You forgot that he's probably dancing a jog that his good guy with a gun stopped a shooting, I doubt he even cares that 26 people had already died and many more were injured, they mean nothing because a good gun with a gun was there to save the day.
         
        tommy1808
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        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:46 pm

        afcjets wrote:
        salttee wrote:
        Not! The progressives are smart enough to realize that taking on the government with guns is not possible or desirable.

        Now if we could only get the dimwit gun nuts to come to the same realization.............


        Undesirable to take on Nazi soilders with assault weapons? I am sure there are many who would disagree with you.


        ...you mean the sort of people that would then get mowed down by MG42 or, if that is too close for comfort, with some Ju-87s, while pointing a 9mm or at best an assault rifle back at them? Unless you want nukes in citizens basements, armed citizens will always hold the short end of the stick, and who believes otherwise watches too many bad movies. Even if you have full on military equipment in competitive numbers, you get crushed if materiell and training is just a little worse that that of the red forces.

        So, if you even cared the tiniest bit about fighting tyrannical governments, you should insist that everybody wanting to own a gun would need basic military training, lets say four or six weeks, before being part of that well regulated Militia that can fight of tyranny. As long as that is just the local Sheriff department .....

        Also surprising that i am from the extrem left socialist republic of Germany where assault guns are just as illegal as all guns without an objective need to have one (protection is a subjective need, and anxiety management training probably much better for the quality of life anyways), yet police isn´t heavily armed and armored police vehicles are available in homeopathic dose.

        best regards
        Thomas
        Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
         
        720B
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        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:08 pm

        BobPatterson wrote:
        usflyer msp wrote:
        This further confirms my desire to raise my children outside of the US. I refuse to let them grow up feeling that nowhere is safe. My condo in Colombia is looking better every day - I might get shot there but at least it would be for a reason like robbery not just because some dude is mad at the world and has unfetterd access to military grade weapons...

        If I'm not mistaken, gun violence is 2.5 times as frequent in Colombia than in the United States (per 100,000 population). Of course, there are areas in each country that are much safer than others.

        To suggest that nowhere is safe in the USA ignores reality.


        As a Colombian, I found your comment offensive. I am noit denying problems colombia has, but why mix it here? pathetic really, just pathetic
         
        MaverickM11
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        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:21 pm

        Good news! The NRA terrorists are winning. Praise concealed carry Jesus!

        No Matter How You Measure Them, Mass Shooting Deaths Are Up
        https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no ... hs-are-up/
        E pur si muove -Galileo
         
        tommy1808
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        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:23 pm

        afcjets wrote:
        MaverickM11 wrote:
        If the good guy with a gun nonsense was true, we wouldn't have police shot in the line of duty.


        Hopefully most people in the US do not consider someone who shoots a police officer to be the good guy with a gun.


        A police officer doing his lawful duty, nope, a police officer abusing a citizen is no different from any other citizen doing so.

        There is a state trooper in MI, well former state trooper, that raped multiple young women, one of which happened to be a friend of mine.
        He couldn't get convicted on those, and my friend rape was too long ago to do so, but at least when she came forward it ultimately cost him his job and pension. Back when it happened she didn't go to the cops, because she was pretty sure that pressing charges against a cop is fairly useless anyways. Go figure given he is not in Prison.

        He has been in Uniform when he raped her. If a guy with a gun had shot him right then and there, as long as he was convinced that was his only chance, he certainly would be a good guy.

        Best regards
        Thomas
        Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
         
        User avatar
        BobPatterson
        Posts: 3199
        Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:22 pm

        720B wrote:
        BobPatterson wrote:
        usflyer msp wrote:
        This further confirms my desire to raise my children outside of the US. I refuse to let them grow up feeling that nowhere is safe. My condo in Colombia is looking better every day - I might get shot there but at least it would be for a reason like robbery not just because some dude is mad at the world and has unfetterd access to military grade weapons...

        If I'm not mistaken, gun violence is 2.5 times as frequent in Colombia than in the United States (per 100,000 population). Of course, there are areas in each country that are much safer than others.

        To suggest that nowhere is safe in the USA ignores reality.


        As a Colombian, I found your comment offensive. I am noit denying problems colombia has, but why mix it here? pathetic really, just pathetic

        Perhaps you meant to address the person who made first mention of Colombia?

        If you are offended by facts I don't know what to say to help you feel better.
        Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
         
        tommy1808
        Posts: 6634
        Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:39 pm

        BobPatterson wrote:
        't know what to say to help you feel better.


        Well, offense is taken, not given....

        But seems rather unlikely that you wanted to offend anyone in any case.

        Best regards
        Thomas
        Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
         
        seb146
        Posts: 15556
        Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:13 am

        Since "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "corporations are people, my friend" that means that corporations can be held accountable for murder, just like any other person. There have been 90+ murders in two separate incidents. How many years did the Oklahoma City bombers get? Also, laws were changed after Oklahoma City to limit that sort of thing happening again. What has been done about gun deaths?
        You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
         
        Chaostheory
        Posts: 995
        Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:20 am

        MrHMSH wrote:

        A gentle reminder: in the UK we've now gone 7910 days without a mass shooting in the UK. Such a failure...


        Whilst I agree with the essence of your post, this isn't true.

        The last major shooting incident in the UK occurred in 2010. It was carried out by a taxi driver in Cumbria armed with a .22 and a shotgun. According to wiki, he killed 12 people.
         
        tommy1808
        Posts: 6634
        Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:09 am

        seb146 wrote:
        Since "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "corporations are people, my friend" that means that corporations can be held accountable for murder, just like any other person.


        Or tax them based on income instead of profits like people......

        best regards
        Thomas
        Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
         
        User avatar
        SheikhDjibouti
        Posts: 354
        Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:49 pm

        MrHMSH wrote:
        A gentle reminder: in the UK we've now gone 7910 days without a mass shooting in the UK. Such a failure...

        Chaostheory wrote:
        Whilst I agree with the essence of your post, this isn't true.
        The last major shooting incident in the UK occurred in 2010. It was carried out by a taxi driver in Cumbria armed with a .22 and a shotgun. According to wiki, he killed 12 people.

        Yes you are both correct in different ways. It has been only 2717 days since the last mass shooting here in the UK, and just 5194 days to the one before that. We are failing.

        Indeed, using those two pieces of data, the next mass shooting will be August 21st, 2024.
        The fact that it is my mother-in-law's birthday is pure coincidence...... :yes:
        There are two things that happen when you get old.
        1. You start to lose your memory.
        2. What was I saying again?
         
        GDB
        Posts: 12888
        Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:11 pm

        Chaostheory wrote:
        MrHMSH wrote:

        A gentle reminder: in the UK we've now gone 7910 days without a mass shooting in the UK. Such a failure...


        Whilst I agree with the essence of your post, this isn't true.

        The last major shooting incident in the UK occurred in 2010. It was carried out by a taxi driver in Cumbria armed with a .22 and a shotgun. According to wiki, he killed 12 people.


        You mean the Derrick Bird case?
        I thought, admittedly, that was the last one being referred to.
        However, it is notable that there was no real move to restrict the (legal) firearms Bird used, unlike the two previous attacks.
        Reason being, a bolt action .22 and the shotgun are typically used lawfully in rural areas.

        Our first mass shooting, in 1987, involved a legally held and stored semi auto AK-47, a M1 Carbine and a semi auto pistol.
        The first two were banned outright, as most people 1) had no idea you could even get them, albeit with stringent and regular checks by the police, 2) of course the sheer carnage he created.

        In 1996 a class full of school kids and their teacher were killed by a madman with a legally held Browning 9mm, there was a public outcry and the law was changed to ban these too, since unlike the weapons Bird had, there is no rational, sane reason to have anything more powerful, essentially what are military grade weapons.
        Yes semi auto but with high velocity rounds and large mag capacity for rifles (what, you are going to shoot pests on your farm with those?). As after the 1996 event the same applied to pistols.

        It's the difference between taking rational action and having a gun fetish.
        It means these wannabee Jihadists have to use knifes, criminals, for the most part (gun crime is not unknown but given the UK population, still rare) have to use modified replicas or some old relic someone brought back from WW2.
        In the days of blagging from cash delivery vans, banks, in the 70's and 80's heyday, it was also mostly sawn off shotguns.

        You do get attempts by criminal elements to smuggle hardware in, a case not long ago involved Skorpion Machine Pistols and AK's, long prison sentences for those caught and an additional pressure on them, they might have intended to sell to say criminals involved in drugs, however the idea that terrorists could get them this way makes it more risky for them, not only the police and Coastguard but MI5 involved in preventing this nowadays.

        But there's another reason it's different here, there is no gun lobby to speak of.
        Some can pretend that it's all about the Constitution, BS.
        It's about gun firms, the NRA, brought and paid for 'Lawmakers'.
        It's not cold, dead hands but cold, hard $.
         
        Pyrex
        Posts: 4253
        Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:33 pm

        tommy1808 wrote:
        seb146 wrote:


        Or tax them based on income instead of profits like people......


        People (at least in the U.S.) get taxed on profits as well, not income, as has been pointed out to you several times already. You would know that if you had ever worked as an independent contractor, or even if you were a full employee but, for instance, had to use your personal car in the ordinary course of your business. But somehow I suspect you have never made a single dollar / Euro in your entire life that did not come from some government source of some sort, so naturally there are not a lot of expenses associated with that (do not believe wear and tear on a soul is tax-deductible).

        But the fact that you think that someone like a Wal-Mart (or really, any large retailer, even Whole Foods), that operates with a low single-digits margin (because they sell affordable basic necessities to people) should be taxed at the same rate on revenue as Apple, for instance, who makes insane profit margins from selling over-priced crap, is very informative on how a) you don't understand a single thing about business and b) could not care less if poor people suddenly see the price of food and other basic necessities go up by 20-35%.
        Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
         
        tommy1808
        Posts: 6634
        Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:53 pm

        Pyrex wrote:
        tommy1808 wrote:
        seb146 wrote:


        Or tax them based on income instead of profits like people......


        People (at least in the U.S.) get taxed on profits as well, not income, as has been pointed out to you several times already.


        That would require a fairly weird definition of "Profit": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_inc ... me_tax_law

        But the fact that you think that someone like a Wal-Mart (or really, any large retailer, even Whole Foods), that operates with a low single-digits margin (because they sell affordable basic necessities to people) should be taxed at the same rate on revenue as Apple, for instance, who makes insane profit margins from selling over-priced crap, is very informative on how a) you don't understand a single thing about business and b) could not care less if poor people suddenly see the price of food and other basic necessities go up by 20-35%.


        Where did i say that companies should be treated like people as opposed to, if they want to be treated like people, treat them like people all the way, including taxes, including criminal law and so on and so forth.

        And btw, there are a few members on this forum that know where and in which position i am working, they may get a good chuckle out of your repeated and fairly lame attempts to be offensive, so please, do keep it up.

        best regards
        Thomas
        Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
         
        B777LRF
        Posts: 1832
        Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:53 pm

        Speaking of 'corporations are people too', wasn't a law invoked in the US making it impossible to sue manufacturers of guns and ammunition, when their products have been used to kill somebody?
        From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
         
        seb146
        Posts: 15556
        Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:36 pm

        Pyrex wrote:
        tommy1808 wrote:
        seb146 wrote:


        Or tax them based on income instead of profits like people......


        People (at least in the U.S.) get taxed on profits as well, not income, as has been pointed out to you several times already. You would know that if you had ever worked as an independent contractor, or even if you were a full employee but, for instance, had to use your personal car in the ordinary course of your business. But somehow I suspect you have never made a single dollar / Euro in your entire life that did not come from some government source of some sort, so naturally there are not a lot of expenses associated with that (do not believe wear and tear on a soul is tax-deductible).

        But the fact that you think that someone like a Wal-Mart (or really, any large retailer, even Whole Foods), that operates with a low single-digits margin (because they sell affordable basic necessities to people) should be taxed at the same rate on revenue as Apple, for instance, who makes insane profit margins from selling over-priced crap, is very informative on how a) you don't understand a single thing about business and b) could not care less if poor people suddenly see the price of food and other basic necessities go up by 20-35%.


        Wait a minute... If companies like Wal-Mart work on such razor thin margins, how are they the wealthiest companies in the country? They cry poverty but prove they are anything but. How many corporations are signing up for food stamps to feed their families? How many corporations are signing up for state assisted medical insurance? What does any of that have to do with mass shootings?
        You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
         
        salttee
        Posts: 1558
        Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:15 am

        I guess we've all gotten it wrong. President Trump has announced that the Texas Church shooting "isn't a gun situation".
        http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-te ... eo-2017-11
        I suppose we should all calm down and get back to work.
         
        Pyrex
        Posts: 4253
        Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:02 am

        [/quote]
        People (at least in the U.S.) get taxed on profits as well, not income, as has been pointed out to you several times already.[/quote]

        That would require a fairly weird definition of "Profit": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_inc ... me_tax_law

        The link you yourself quoted says, on top, that taxable income equals gross income less allowable tax deductions...

        tommy1808 wrote:
        Where did i say that companies should be treated like people as opposed to, if they want to be treated like people, treat them like people all the way, including taxes, including criminal law and so on and so forth. .


        It would be great if corporations could be taxed like people - S-Corps already can, of course, but those are limited in the number of shareholders. For most other companies, once they pay taxes once, at the corporate level, whatever is left over, to be used for consumption, needs to be paid out as a dividend, which incurs in additional taxes. I mean, even the IRS itself calls it double taxation...

        https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... rporations

        tommy1808 wrote:
        And btw, there are a few members on this forum that know where and in which position i am working, they may get a good chuckle out of your repeated and fairly lame attempts to be offensive, so please, do keep it up.


        Given the amount of free time you have to constantly spew anti-American crap on this site, I would guess some sort of Russian troll farm operative.

        seb146 wrote:
        Wait a minute... If companies like Wal-Mart work on such razor thin margins, how are they the wealthiest companies in the country?


        Volume, which is something you would be able to check yourself based on public sources if you understood anything about basic accounting or finance. Wal-Mart made $21.6 billion in pre-tax profit last year, which sounds a lot, but when you consider they made $482.1 billion in revenue during that same year leads to a pre-tax margin of 4.5%. If you charged them a tax based on revenue, not on profit, even at a 20% corporate tax rate, as the one currently being proposed in Congress, they would have to run their business for over 4 years just to pay a single year's worth of taxes. I am sure even you will be able to understand how that would not be sustainable, and would thus necessitate an increase in prices.

        Coincidentally, Apple, on the other hand, made $64.1 billion in pre-tax profit (or 3x that of Wal-Mart) on $229 billion in revenue, for a pre-tax margin 27.9%. Much better (lower than I would have thought, though), but likely still not enough to sustain a 20% tax rate on revenue.

        https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/WMT/financials?p=WMT
        https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL
        Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
         
        seb146
        Posts: 15556
        Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:05 am

        Pyrex wrote:

        People (at least in the U.S.) get taxed on profits as well, not income, as has been pointed out to you several times already.[/quote]

        That would require a fairly weird definition of "Profit": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_inc ... me_tax_law

        The link you yourself quoted says, on top, that taxable income equals gross income less allowable tax deductions...

        tommy1808 wrote:
        Where did i say that companies should be treated like people as opposed to, if they want to be treated like people, treat them like people all the way, including taxes, including criminal law and so on and so forth. .


        It would be great if corporations could be taxed like people - S-Corps already can, of course, but those are limited in the number of shareholders. For most other companies, once they pay taxes once, at the corporate level, whatever is left over, to be used for consumption, needs to be paid out as a dividend, which incurs in additional taxes. I mean, even the IRS itself calls it double taxation...

        https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... rporations

        tommy1808 wrote:
        And btw, there are a few members on this forum that know where and in which position i am working, they may get a good chuckle out of your repeated and fairly lame attempts to be offensive, so please, do keep it up.


        Given the amount of free time you have to constantly spew anti-American crap on this site, I would guess some sort of Russian troll farm operative.

        seb146 wrote:
        Wait a minute... If companies like Wal-Mart work on such razor thin margins, how are they the wealthiest companies in the country?


        Volume, which is something you would be able to check yourself based on public sources if you understood anything about basic accounting or finance. Wal-Mart made $21.6 billion in pre-tax profit last year, which sounds a lot, but when you consider they made $482.1 billion in revenue during that same year leads to a pre-tax margin of 4.5%. If you charged them a tax based on revenue, not on profit, even at a 20% corporate tax rate, as the one currently being proposed in Congress, they would have to run their business for over 4 years just to pay a single year's worth of taxes. I am sure even you will be able to understand how that would not be sustainable, and would thus necessitate an increase in prices.

        Coincidentally, Apple, on the other hand, made $64.1 billion in pre-tax profit (or 3x that of Wal-Mart) on $229 billion in revenue, for a pre-tax margin 27.9%. Much better (lower than I would have thought, though), but likely still not enough to sustain a 20% tax rate on revenue.

        https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/WMT/financials?p=WMT
        https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL[/quote]

        And they can both claim that those profits and margins came from other countries so they pay even less in taxes.

        Still has zero to do with the murder of church goers.
        You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
         
        User avatar
        BobPatterson
        Posts: 3199
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        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:31 am

        seb146 wrote:
        Since "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "corporations are people, my friend" that means that corporations can be held accountable for murder, just like any other person.

        Not unless the corporation pulls the trigger and commits the murder.
        Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
         
        seb146
        Posts: 15556
        Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:39 am

        BobPatterson wrote:
        seb146 wrote:
        Since "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "corporations are people, my friend" that means that corporations can be held accountable for murder, just like any other person.

        Not unless the corporation pulls the trigger and commits the murder.


        You don't get it:

        Corporations are people, according to Republicans. Corporations kill and build killing machines like guns. People kill people. Corporations are people. Therefore, corporations kill people and should be tried and executed for murder.
        You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
         
        User avatar
        BobPatterson
        Posts: 3199
        Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:09 am

        seb146 wrote:
        BobPatterson wrote:
        seb146 wrote:
        Since "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "corporations are people, my friend" that means that corporations can be held accountable for murder, just like any other person.

        Not unless the corporation pulls the trigger and commits the murder.


        You don't get it:

        Corporations are people, according to Republicans. Corporations kill and build killing machines like guns. People kill people. Corporations are people. Therefore, corporations kill people and should be tried and executed for murder.

        Utter nonsense and faulty logic.

        "Corporations kill (a figment of your imagination) and ........."

        Building on that statement does not make anything you have to say true or factual.
        Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
         
        seb146
        Posts: 15556
        Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:16 am

        BobPatterson wrote:
        seb146 wrote:
        BobPatterson wrote:
        Not unless the corporation pulls the trigger and commits the murder.


        You don't get it:

        Corporations are people, according to Republicans. Corporations kill and build killing machines like guns. People kill people. Corporations are people. Therefore, corporations kill people and should be tried and executed for murder.

        Utter nonsense and faulty logic.

        "Corporations kill (a figment of your imagination) and ........."

        Building on that statement does not make anything you have to say true or factual.


        In other words: Republican logic is utter nonsense and faulty logic.

        Finally! You get it!
        You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
         
        User avatar
        zkojq
        Posts: 2811
        Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

        Re: Mass Shooting in Southerland Springs TX

        Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:05 am

        NoTime wrote:
        einsteinboricua wrote:
        2. The ever powerful and loving being known as God is neither all powerful nor all loving and caring. A supreme being, which loves and protects his followers, would not have allowed such a thing to happen and such a being, with the capability to control how events unfold (his Divine Plan) would have made it so that the gunman was never able to fire a single shot. But still, the gunman killed people. So that leads me to conclude the following:

        God is not all powerful or merciful; if he is either one, this even would have not happened. If he is neither, he does not deserve the title of "God"...and if he is both (and this is just part of the Divine Plan), then he is a sadistic being who enjoys torturing his worshippers.

        3. Christian conservatives work harder than the liberal atheist. However, they must not be thinking and praying hard enough or correctly; otherwise these events would never even happen...I mean, that's what happens when you ask someone else to do the job for you.


        For someone with such a limited understanding of the Christian faith to attempt to make this type of argument would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians, however devout, will be spared suffering and/or death. If anything, suffering, persecution and death are to be expected.

        :checkmark: So much this. The bible makes it quite clear that those who choose to follow Christ are not in for an easy ride.
        Most recent planes I've been in: A318 F-GUGQ, A319 F-GRHR, A320ceo D-AIZH, A320neo D-AINE, A330-300 VH-QPD, A350-900 B-LRA, A380-800 D-AIMH, B737-600 LN-RPA, B737-700 OY-JTY, B737-800 LN-NGA, B767-300 ZK-NCI, B777-200 ZK-OKD, B787-9 ZK-NZH, CS100 HB-JBG

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