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Tugger
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US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:53 pm

So the tax overhaul is out there for people to see:
Image

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/us/p ... icans.html
Doesn't look horrible, it will of course be fought over and incur changes in the coming days and weeks. But if they hope to get it passed this year then they can't dilly dally too long.

I think the change to the medical expense deduction (removing it) needs to go as it very much just kills families that need it AND the tax break the most. The committee states the loss of the deduction is made up for with gains from the additional cuts in other places in taxes but that just creates a situation where those who are healthy benefit more from the reform. I think that is kind of a non-starter.

Of course this will further the issue of "the rich pay the majority of taxes" but that is to be expected with the large shift in the income distribution across the nation. There is no way to have the wealthiest people have the largest increases in income versus all other groups and not have them in turn pay more in taxes. It is just simple economics. To change that, the "middle class" has to grow and the wealthiest 1% shrink in numbers. But then people will complain about that.

Thoughts?

Tugg
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:07 pm

Looks like Crap. They are taking out the Personal exemptions and masking it with a higher standard deduction.

My deductions last year exceeded the standard deductions, and I had a higher Personal exemption. My initial run at the taxes say that I will pay much higher taxes under this plan with the loss of exceptions from state income tax.

The GOP members in most suburbs will be forced to vote this one down.

It is what we thought it was,. a Tax Break for the rich, on the backs of the middle class.
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wingman
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:19 pm

I like the concept of simplification but I'm always leery of the wealthy getting any new breaks. In the past 50 years they have concentrated ever greater and greater wealth into their hands at everyone else's expense. They are doing positively great long term in their present circumstances, so I'm not exactly clear on why they need more help. Anyway, looks like a great deal for the Trumpkin kids..daddy pays no taxes in 20 years and they get all his money for free after he fires off his Last Tweet.. I can't wait to see how Hannity spins this one to the coal miners, but I have a feeling they'll lap it right up.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
Looks like Crap. They are taking out the Personal exemptions and masking it with a higher standard deduction.

My deductions last year exceeded the standard deductions, and I had a higher Personal exemption.


For the vast majority of people, this is a good thing. It reduces the complexity of filing and stops tax carve-outs for special interests.

casinterest wrote:
My initial run at the taxes say that I will pay much higher taxes under this plan with the loss of exceptions from state income tax.


In other words: your federal tax rate won't depend on which state you live. Good.

People in Texas shouldn't be subsidizing lower federal tax rates for people in New York just because they're tax crazy at the local level. Tell your state to get its act together.

casinterest wrote:
It is what we thought it was,. a Tax Break for the rich, on the backs of the middle class.


It is nothing of the sort. It's a big tax cut for middle income earners and shifts more tax burden to upper-middle class and high income earners.
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:15 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
casinterest wrote:
My initial run at the taxes say that I will pay much higher taxes under this plan with the loss of exceptions from state income tax.


In other words: your federal tax rate won't depend on which state you live. Good.

People in Texas shouldn't be subsidizing lower federal tax rates for people in New York just because they're tax crazy at the local level. Tell your state to get its act together.


So you believe in taxes on taxes?

People in Texas don't subsidize those in States with Income taxes. It is the other way around. Our states don't need all the federal revenue that you are using due to the lack of state revenue.
Your state also has many federal bases bringing in federal money. Perhaps those should be moved to other states.

DfwRevolution wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It is what we thought it was,. a Tax Break for the rich, on the backs of the middle class.


It is nothing of the sort. It's a big tax cut for middle income earners and shifts more tax burden to upper-middle class and high income earners.
]

No, it is not, by raising the standard deduction to 24000, and eliminating the personal exemptions, it hurts many of the middle class folks that have deductions between 12000 and 32000 , that also claimed the personal exemption. It will hit middle class families hard. In a cut where 1.5 trillion is being added to the deficit, NO ONE should get an increase.


casinterest wrote:
Looks like Crap. They are taking out the Personal exemptions and masking it with a higher standard deduction.

My deductions last year exceeded the standard deductions, and I had a higher Personal exemption.


For the vast majority of people, this is a good thing. It reduces the complexity of filing and stops tax carve-outs for special interests.

casinterest wrote:


As stated above, it causes tax increases for the middle class, while the wealthy get wealthier.

Nothing decent about a tax cut plan that hurts those in the middle.
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Kiwirob
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:40 pm

It shouldn’t be too difficult to add sales tax to the price of everything, every other country manages this it’s about time the US did as well. That would be something I’d look at.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:43 pm

Where are all the tea party folks screaming about the deficit?
 
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:43 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Where are all the tea party folks screaming about the deficit?

They are out celebrating taxes on taxes contained in this bill.
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Tugger
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:46 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
People in Texas shouldn't be subsidizing lower federal tax rates for people in New York just because they're tax crazy at the local level. Tell your state to get its act together.

Except Texas very much is not subsidizing anyone in New York. The state provides more for its citizens, more benefits and more services. And those services reduce the burden on the federal government. Or do you think the federal government should do everything? You are suggesting centralized government. New York should not be beholden to what Texas wants to do in order to provide benefits to its citizens.

An effective state government is better than more centralized power. Additionally New York provides more income to the federal government and gets back less that Texas. The state is in general more prosperous than most other states. They are fully net contributors and are not drags on the budget or economy of Texas. Maybe you should go discuss this Alabama, New Mexico, or Mississippi who are subsidized by Texas.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/eco ... axes-texas

Tugg
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Aesma
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:29 pm

The one with the postcard is funny. You kind of see that it's trying to screw you, but not sure how.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:16 pm

casinterest wrote:
So you believe in taxes on taxes?

People in Texas don't subsidize those in States with Income taxes. It is the other way around. Our states don't need all the federal revenue that you are using due to the lack of state revenue.
Your state also has many federal bases bringing in federal money. Perhaps those should be moved to other states.


I believe in taxes being equal.

For the same income and circumstances, a Texan will pay higher federal taxes than a New Yorker with the same income. That isn't equal. That isn't fair.

casinterest wrote:
by raising the standard deduction to 24000, and eliminating the personal exemptions, it hurts many of the middle class folks that have deductions between 12000 and 32000 , that also claimed the personal exemption. It will hit middle class families hard.


1. You are just throwing around unsubstantiated claims. Specify what you consider a middle class income. Specify who is going to pay more and why. The middle three quintiles of U.S. households earn between $44,000 to $95,000. If you are the $95K household and married, your taxes drop $3,500 .

2. Most people with the common definitions of middle class income do not itemize deductions. Roughly 70% of Americans take the standard deduction. The taxpayers who itemize are largely high income earners who can afford tax accountants to crawl through mountains of regulations. The scenario of having middle class income and deductions falling in a narrow range is exceedingly rare.

Tugger wrote:
Except Texas very much is not subsidizing anyone in New York. The state provides more for its citizens, more benefits and more services.


B.S. :rotfl:

I've lived in New York and got zero additional services than when I lived in Texas. In fact, I got LESS! I had to pay extra for services like trash collection that were included in my taxes back in Texas.

Tugger wrote:
And those services reduce the burden on the federal government.


Totally unsubstantiated.

Tugger wrote:
Or do you think the federal government should do everything? You are suggesting centralized government.


I think the federal government should stick to its scope as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution. How do you make the logical leap that applying tax rates equally means I want "centralized government?"

Tugger wrote:
New York should not be beholden to what Texas wants to do in order to provide benefits to its citizens.


Nor should Texas be beholden to what New York wants to provide its citizens. New York can go tax crazy for all I care. Just don't ask Texas to pay for it.

Tugger wrote:
Additionally New York provides more income to the federal government and gets back less that Texas. The state is in general more prosperous than most other states. They are fully net contributors and are not drags on the budget or economy of Texas. Maybe you should go discuss this Alabama, New Mexico, or Mississippi who are subsidized by Texas.


Meaningless. State flows have no bearing on your individual tax liability. Over 60% of the federal government is just pushing money to retirees. And guess what lots of NY residents do when they retire? They leave and go south to warmer and cheaper pastures. That totally skews which states are "payers" and "takers."
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Ken777
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:02 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It shouldn’t be too difficult to add sales tax to the price of everything, every other country manages this it’s about time the US did as well. That would be something I’d look at.


A national sales tax is relativity easy to implement in countries that did not have point of sale taxes. The Aussie GST was simple to operate - even I had no problems with the accounting of that new system.

In the US, however, most states have sales taxes at the point of sale, split between the cities, counties and states. To a large part the taxes are approved by the voters. I've voted against only one tax increase for education, but that was only a total scam by the dumb broad ink the Governor's Mansion. I voted for every other tax increase for education, even when I had no children in the system.

Same with property taxes for education and infrastructure. we have voted in a tax increase and we continue to do so. That is 'local government" and a national GST would either have to cover the bond issues that we have already voted for or we would have significant inflation with a new national sales tax.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:04 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
I believe in taxes being equal.

For the same income and circumstances, a Texan will pay higher federal taxes than a New Yorker with the same income. That isn't equal. That isn't fair.


No, This bill was written with Texans in mind. Why do you get to keep your property tax exceptions, when I have to pay my state income taxes. I guarantee you are paying much more than I am in percentage on property tax to make up for the fact that your state does not charge income taxes.

So no, not all states are fair, and you will get to keep a write off based on how your state makes up for lost income tax revenue.

DfwRevolution wrote:
. You are just throwing around unsubstantiated claims. Specify what you consider a middle class income. Specify who is going to pay more and why. The middle three quintiles of U.S. households earn between $44,000 to $95,000. If you are the $95K household and married, your taxes drop $3,500 .

2. Most people with the common definitions of middle class income do not itemize deductions. Roughly 70% of Americans take the standard deduction. The taxpayers who itemize are largely high income earners who can afford tax accountants to crawl through mountains of regulations. The scenario of having middle class income and deductions falling in a narrow range is exceedingly rare.


So the 15-20% of middle class Americans that get thrown under the bus are worth it to raise the deficit by 1.5 trillion?

Think of it this way. A family of 4 that had 24,000 of exemptions last year with 16.400 in personal exemptions for a total of 40,400 in exemptions and a 2000 child credit is now left with 24,0000 in exemptions and a 3800 dollar credit. If they make 120K, that changes their taxable income of 79600 to 96000.
That is a 16,000 dollar difference spread across ranges.

In 2017, they would have been taxed ~11,500 -2000 tax credit for 9500 in federal taxes.
Under GOP plan
They would be taxed 12,500-3800 dollar credit for 8700 in federal taxes.

a difference of 800 dollars.. If my family above had been DINKS, or parents of 1 kid, then they would pay more .


If they have medical expenses or student loans or really expensive State and local taxes, it hurts even more.
The sliding scale is set up to hurt middle class earners.
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Flighty
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:09 pm

I agree with taxes on taxes. Why should I be able to fund everything via state government using pretax dollars? Meanwhile, if I provide that same thing via a private tax-paying business, I have to pay federal income taxes first?! That makes it (let's say) 35% cheaper to use the state government compared to a private business. That's completely ridiculous. It subsidizes the families who work for state and local government (who are often politically powerful) using the money from the private sector working families.

If people dislike high state taxes then they should reduce those costs. I've lived in high tax states and low tax states. The exact same standard of living exists in low-tax and high-tax states. The sanctimonious government workers who need involuntary "revenues" from my pockets, well, I have little patience for them. I have been through layoffs and seen the benefits. Layoffs often preserved and protected my place of business. I invite these stressed state governments to engage in large, deep layoffs and asset sales.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:13 pm

Another example . A family of 4 that had 32,000( of which 8000 was state income) of exemptions last year with 16.400 in personal exemptions for a total of 48,400 in exemptions and a 2000 child credit is now left with 24,0000 in exemptions and a 3800 dollar credit. If they make 160K, that changes their taxable income of 111600 to 136000.
That is a 20,5000 dollar difference spread across the 25% bracket.

In 2017, they would have been taxed 19,500 -2000 tax credit for 17500 in federal taxes.
Under GOP plan
They would be taxed 22000-3800 dollar credit for 8200 in federal taxes.

a difference of 700 dollars in the negative..

If my family above had been DINKS, or parents of 1 kid, then they would pay even more.
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Kiwirob
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Ken777 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
It shouldn’t be too difficult to add sales tax to the price of everything, every other country manages this it’s about time the US did as well. That would be something I’d look at.


A national sales tax is relativity easy to implement in countries that did not have point of sale taxes. The Aussie GST was simple to operate - even I had no problems with the accounting of that new system.

In the US, however, most states have sales taxes at the point of sale, split between the cities, counties and states. To a large part the taxes are approved by the voters. I've voted against only one tax increase for education, but that was only a total scam by the dumb broad ink the Governor's Mansion. I voted for every other tax increase for education, even when I had no children in the system.

Same with property taxes for education and infrastructure. we have voted in a tax increase and we continue to do so. That is 'local government" and a national GST would either have to cover the bond issues that we have already voted for or we would have significant inflation with a new national sales tax.


And most business have computerised point of sale and accounting software which could sort this all out in a jiffy. There’s no excuse not to sort this out today.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:52 pm

More reports are starting to come out that this is a bad tax cut bill as it is doing it on the back of the Middle Class for the Wealthy, and it will expand the deficit far more than 1.5 trillion over 10 years.

Not looking good for those deficit hawks or middle class champions in the GOP.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/20 ... 628c117e08
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DfwRevolution
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:49 am

casinterest wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
I believe in taxes being equal.

For the same income and circumstances, a Texan will pay higher federal taxes than a New Yorker with the same income. That isn't equal. That isn't fair.


No, This bill was written with Texans in mind. Why do you get to keep your property tax exceptions, when I have to pay my state income taxes. I guarantee you are paying much more than I am in percentage on property tax to make up for the fact that your state does not charge income taxes. So no, not all states are fair, and you will get to keep a write off based on how your state makes up for lost income tax revenue.


1. The state property tax deduction is capped at $10,000. It is not open-ended like the present deduction on state/local taxes.

2. It is entirely fair because every state has a property tax and property tax rates a relatively flat across the country. That means everyone - regardless of state - can deduct about the same amount of local taxes.

You can deduct $10,000 of property tax in NY. You can deduct $10,000 of property tax in TX. That's more fair than allowing a New Yorker to deduct $20,000 of income+property tax while a Texan only has $10,000 of property tax to deduct. Your federal tax rate should not depend on your state of residence! If you've got a problem with your local taxes, take it up with your local representatives.

casinterest wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
1. You are just throwing around unsubstantiated claims. Specify what you consider a middle class income. Specify who is going to pay more and why. The middle three quintiles of U.S. households earn between $44,000 to $95,000. If you are the $95K household and married, your taxes drop $3,500 .

2. Most people with the common definitions of middle class income do not itemize deductions. Roughly 70% of Americans take the standard deduction. The taxpayers who itemize are largely high income earners who can afford tax accountants to crawl through mountains of regulations. The scenario of having middle class income and deductions falling in a narrow range is exceedingly rare.


Think of it this way. A family of 4 that had 24,000 of exemptions last year with 16.400 in personal exemptions for a total of 40,400 in exemptions and a 2000 child credit is now left with 24,0000 in exemptions and a 3800 dollar credit. If they make 120K, that changes their taxable income of 79600 to 96000..


This is exactly why I asked for your definition of "middle-class income." There is nothing "middle" about earning $120,000. That household would be in the top 10% of income earners nationwide. I know it probably doesn't feel rich, especially with kids, but that is elite company.

If you look at households near the true middle of income brackets, this plan is a big relief. So contrary to preconceived notions of big bad Republicans, this tax policy does in fact favor the middle class over upper middle class and high income earners.
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:49 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
1. The state property tax deduction is capped at $10,000. It is not open-ended like the present deduction on state/local taxes.

2. It is entirely fair because every state has a property tax and property tax rates a relatively flat across the country. That means everyone - regardless of state - can deduct about the same amount of local taxes.

You can deduct $10,000 of property tax in NY. You can deduct $10,000 of property tax in TX. That's more fair than allowing a New Yorker to deduct $20,000 of income+property tax while a Texan only has $10,000 of property tax to deduct. Your federal tax rate should not depend on your state of residence! If you've got a problem with your local taxes, take it up with your local representatives.


It is not flat.
I pay at a .8% property tax rate. I know people that pay at 4% or more across the country. On a 300,000 dollar house, that is the difference between a 2400 dollar and 12,000 dollar bill, so maybe for math challenged folks that is flat, but it is not for those that went to school.


DfwRevolution wrote:
This is exactly why I asked for your definition of "middle-class income." There is nothing "middle" about earning $120,000. That household would be in the top 10% of income earners nationwide. I know it probably doesn't feel rich, especially with kids, but that is elite company.

If you look at households near the true middle of income brackets, this plan is a big relief. So contrary to preconceived notions of big bad Republicans, this tax policy does in fact favor the middle class over upper middle class and high income earners.


Are you counting families with 2 or more kids, or old retirees or widowers? The average income for the working middle class is much higher than others, but if you want to go after working families as the Republicans seem to want to then fine.
Let's throw out a 45000 dollar salary for a new grad.
Under old plan has an deduction of 6K and an exemption of 4k with student bills of 4,000 a year
so 31K of income with a 3900 dollar tax bill

Under new plan
with an exemption of 12K, has 33K in taxable income
Has a tax bill of 3900. If they are a teacher or have big medical bills, then they are in the hole.


The GOP tax plan skirts too close to the line with the upper and lower middle class, to where individual circumstances can be the difference between a cut and an increase.


And at the end of the day is a 1200 dollar AVERAGE family saving ( when the wealthy see most of it) worth it, when we are going to add about 1200 dollar per tax return to the deficit a year?


We are only pushing the payments off on the children and grandchildren.
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Ken777
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

And most business have computerised point of sale and accounting software which could sort this all out in a jiffy. There’s no excuse not to sort this out today.


That's a given - US POS terminals will sub-total a sale and then apply the sales tax to the purchase.

In a GST system the product on the shelf already has the GST included in the retail price.

Combining those two systems gets a bit messy, and rally screws the consumer because of the dual system. The current system can be lowered as long term debt issued with sales taxes as collateral for bonds voted in.

Of course a national sales tax would gradually the right of states issuing bonds voted for by the locals. Sort of screws up state rights. eh what?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:03 am

My only concern is that a single dollar leaps you from one tax bracket to the other. The tax brackets we have now make the hit more manageable. Going from 25% to 28% is more manageable than going from 25% to 35%. And of course, the wealthy folks get off easier if they go from 35% to 39.6%.

So far, it doesn't seem to impact me too much (of course, I'll see how it goes with Maryland property taxes...don't think I'll exceed $10,000 and if they keep the current cap on 401k contributions intact, I probably won't see much of an impact anyway). However, I refuse to adopt an "I got mine so who cares?" mentality. It should be a sensible bill that allows a balance.

If anything I'd oppose it only because of the process: devised behind closed doors and will probably be rammed through the House like ACA Repeal, Repeal Lite, etc.
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Alias1024
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:11 am

I haven’t run the numbers but my guess at first look is that this will cost me a few hundred extra in taxes. Being only a few years into our mortgage the interest is most of the payment and we pay state income tax, so those deductions help. I’ll have to look at last year’s to see if we would still itemize under this plan and how it would turn out.

einsteinboricua wrote:
My only concern is that a single dollar leaps you from one tax bracket to the other.

But that’s how it is now. There is a cutoff somewhere and one dollar extra will put you in the next bracket. Not really a huge deal for the income tax because only that last dollar would be taxed at the higher rate. Where that last dollar can hurt is if it pushes you into a bracket that increases capital gains taxes or makes you inelegible for a deduction or credit.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:53 am

Alias1024 wrote:
But that’s how it is now. There is a cutoff somewhere and one dollar extra will put you in the next bracket. Not really a huge deal for the income tax because only that last dollar would be taxed at the higher rate. Where that last dollar can hurt is if it pushes you into a bracket that increases capital gains taxes or makes you inelegible for a deduction or credit.

Keep reading. I was referring to the fact that the staggered rates makes that dollar difference have less of an impact. Yes a single dollar places you in the next tax bracket, but if you're at 25% would you prefer that dollar place you at 28% or at 35%? My guess is that you'd choose the former instead of the latter.
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WIederling
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:43 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Yes a single dollar places you in the next tax bracket, but if you're at 25% would you prefer that dollar place you at 28% or at 35%? My guess is that you'd choose the former instead of the latter.


How is the jump applied?

going over the jumpline:
all income taxed with the higher rate
or excess income ( over jumpline ) now taxed with higher rate

I'd assume the second?
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Aesma
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:25 pm

About the loophole on mortgage's interests, we had a similar one in France for a few years, but isn't that a disguised bank subsidy ? And unfair for people who can't benefit because they're not paying a mortgage ?

As for tax brackets, if they're brackets then you're taxed the new rate only on the money in that bracket, not on everything.

Apparently analysts are saying that this tax plan will not automatically lead to an economic boost, and that it could even cause the opposite effect : it incentives companies to reduce their debt load with the money they get to keep, and not to invest more or recruit more, as there is today nothing preventing them from doing that already. If they don't do it it's because they have nothing to invest into and no need for more workforce (or they're already doing those investments and recruitments with cheap loans). Meanwhile the Fed will almost automatically raise its rates quicker and higher, ending the availability of cheap loans, impacting growth, and hurting companies that depend on them. It could have a domino effect on the stock market, with people realizing that some companies are valued at crazy levels that are not related at all to their current or future earnings, as if Amazon, Apple etc. would not face any competition, nor any issue of any kind (like the EU clamping down on their tax avoidance) for the next 30 years.
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Tugger
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
About the loophole on mortgage's interests, we had a similar one in France for a few years, but isn't that a disguised bank subsidy ? And unfair for people who can't benefit because they're not paying a mortgage ?

It definitely skews prices and values, not by too much but enough. I am fine with ending the mortgage deduction, the only thing is it would need to be done over an appropriate period of time, something like 10 years or 20 or 30 years. That would allow for home values and rates to adjust. People need time to adjust their plans and expectations.

Tugg
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csturdiv
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:07 pm

I wish they would do something about foreign income being taxed. I am a permanent resident of Australia now and have not lived in the US for over 3 years. I have to report my foreign income to the US and will have to pay taxes on that if it is over a certain amount. Nothing like being double taxed.
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Ken777
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:03 am

csturdiv wrote:
I wish they would do something about foreign income being taxed. I am a permanent resident of Australia now and have not lived in the US for over 3 years. I have to report my foreign income to the US and will have to pay taxes on that if it is over a certain amount. Nothing like being double taxed.


IIRC from the 70's (when I lived there) you got a $50,000 pass on overseas income. After you then did your income taxes after the $50,000 deduction your tax will be far less than the Aussie tax. That allowed you to roll over that negative tax in case you had Aussie income that was not taxable there - like winning the lottery.

Aesma wrote:
About the loophole on mortgage's interests, we had a similar


Tugger wrote:
It definitely skews prices and values, not by too much but enough. I am fine with ending the mortgage deduction, the only thing is it would need to be done over an appropriate period of time, something like 10 years or 20 or 30 years. That would allow for home values and rates to adjust. People need time to adjust their plans and expectations.

Tugg


Tax advantages of home ownership are most important for those buying smaller homes and for the ming a significant move up. Of course Trump will make sure that he doesn't get hurt on the loss of that deduction - that might throw him into bankruptcy. Again.

These days the primary driving factor on home prices will be the desirability off the property and the location. Just look at SHF or NYC
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:08 am

Another screwing for the average American from our favorite party of the wealthy. Another gift for the wealthy. What a boon to the wealthy inheritors of their parents and families estates.
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:41 pm

Here we go. From the tax Policy Center.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/de ... bs-act.pdf
"In 2018, 70 percent of taxpayers would experience a tax cut from the included provisions averaging $2,000, and 12
percent would face an average tax increase of nearly $1,600 (table 3). The ratio of winners to losers varies
considerably by income group, with the largest share of taxpayers with a tax increase in the second income quintile
and in the top 1 percent of the income distribution."

"In 2027, 57 percent of taxpayers would see an average tax cut of $2,400, while nearly 28 percent of taxpayers would
face an average tax increase of nearly $2,000 (table 4). The percentage of tax units with a tax increase is similar
across most income groups, although well below average for the bottom quintile (16 percent) and significantly
above average for taxpayers between the 90th and 95th income percentiles (46 percent)."


So much for the middle class and working poor.
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WarRI1
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:23 am

casinterest wrote:
Here we go. From the tax Policy Center.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/de ... bs-act.pdf
"In 2018, 70 percent of taxpayers would experience a tax cut from the included provisions averaging $2,000, and 12
percent would face an average tax increase of nearly $1,600 (table 3). The ratio of winners to losers varies
considerably by income group, with the largest share of taxpayers with a tax increase in the second income quintile
and in the top 1 percent of the income distribution."

"In 2027, 57 percent of taxpayers would see an average tax cut of $2,400, while nearly 28 percent of taxpayers would
face an average tax increase of nearly $2,000 (table 4). The percentage of tax units with a tax increase is similar
across most income groups, although well below average for the bottom quintile (16 percent) and significantly
above average for taxpayers between the 90th and 95th income percentiles (46 percent)."


So much for the middle class and working poor.



All this will be done on one sheet. ???? :rotfl: :rotfl:
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:48 am

WarRI1 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Here we go. From the tax Policy Center.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/de ... bs-act.pdf
"In 2018, 70 percent of taxpayers would experience a tax cut from the included provisions averaging $2,000, and 12
percent would face an average tax increase of nearly $1,600 (table 3). The ratio of winners to losers varies
considerably by income group, with the largest share of taxpayers with a tax increase in the second income quintile
and in the top 1 percent of the income distribution."

"In 2027, 57 percent of taxpayers would see an average tax cut of $2,400, while nearly 28 percent of taxpayers would
face an average tax increase of nearly $2,000 (table 4). The percentage of tax units with a tax increase is similar
across most income groups, although well below average for the bottom quintile (16 percent) and significantly
above average for taxpayers between the 90th and 95th income percentiles (46 percent)."


So much for the middle class and working poor.


We will need to hold out until tomorrow for the full details. The Tax policy center has an issue with the handling of one of the credits.


All this will be done on one sheet. ???? :rotfl: :rotfl:
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:42 am

Now the GOP is starting to walk back their statements on tax breaks for all.

This Tax Plan is just another laundering front to give tax cuts to the rich

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/10/mitch-m ... -plan.html
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N757ST
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:01 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
But that’s how it is now. There is a cutoff somewhere and one dollar extra will put you in the next bracket. Not really a huge deal for the income tax because only that last dollar would be taxed at the higher rate. Where that last dollar can hurt is if it pushes you into a bracket that increases capital gains taxes or makes you inelegible for a deduction or credit.

Keep reading. I was referring to the fact that the staggered rates makes that dollar difference have less of an impact. Yes a single dollar places you in the next tax bracket, but if you're at 25% would you prefer that dollar place you at 28% or at 35%? My guess is that you'd choose the former instead of the latter.



You do realize that one dollar doesn’t jump you into a new tax bracket right? That’s not how taxes work. That 1 dollar will now be assessed at the higher rate, but all your other dollars were taxed at tue corrisponding rate. That’s why people calculate an effective rare vs actual. This is basic tax stuff guys, i don’t know where people get the idea that 1 dollar can lead to thousands of dollars in additional tax liability.

I live in a high tax state, and while this plan does somewhat effect me the elimination of AMT does prove it to be a tax cut.
 
mmo
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:44 am

Can't remember where I read the following, but here it goes. Over 55% of the tax cut will go to the top 1% earners in the US. Now, if this doesn't get people to realize just where Trump's loyalties lie, I don't know what will.

While I all for tax simplification, this is nothing more than a giveaway to the trump elite. While no tax system is "fair" the proposals put forward by Trump are just too much. The US should seriously look at a system something like the UK has. Their system is a Pay as you earn. While not perfect by any means, it is a much better system than the US has. I feel as if I can comment as I have experienced both!
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seb146
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:15 pm

When are people going to understand that tax breaks for the rich do not benefit the middle and low income workers? The Walton family, who control Wal-Mart, are the richest in the country. Workers at their stores are more likely to be on government assistance of some kind because of how low their wages are. Because the Walton family receive large tax cuts that we are told "trickle down" to us. We are still waiting.....
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akiss20
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:16 am

There is quite a bit of outrage amongst us grad students because, as written, it eliminates the tuition waiver exemption. As a grad student, I currently get paid about $38K/yr on a stipend. That $38K/yr is taxable income and is what I use to live. The yearly tuition at my university is $66k/yr, but that tuition is paid by my research fellowship, and is also tax exempt. That money never goes into any of my accounts, it simply gets transferred from one account in my university (the research fund that funs me) to another. Under the current version of the tax bill, all $66k of that would be considered taxable income, bringing my "yearly income" to $104K/yr. Such an increase would result in approximately $10,000/yr of extra tax liability for me, or about 27% of my pre-tax income, and more like 40% of my post-tax income. This would simply be unsustainable for most graduate students. Rent alone is typically about 50-70% of the take home pay for a grad student in my area.

Apparently the GOP doesn't give a crap about advanced research. And before anyone accuses me of doing something "useless", I am an aerospace engineering graduate student.

https://www.wired.com/story/grad-studen ... should-be/
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WarRI1
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:19 am

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/mcconne ... 33341.html

Does anyone remember Obama saying we could keep our Doctors and how he was pilloried by the Republicans including old Mitch. Hypocrisy thy name is Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan and the Republicans.
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:11 am

And now , as it is shown that the middle class will take the hit in a bill that is drastically increasing the National debt, the President asks for EXTREMELY HUGE DEBT, by asking for 35% bracket for the rich and a repeal of the individual mandate.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1DD245


All he will leave this country with is bankruptcy. Just like his businesses, and those that do business with his businesses.
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seb146
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:48 pm

Republicans don't care about the debt when they are in charge. Shocking.

Also, 400 millionaires asked the Republican controlled Congress not to lower their taxes.

http://fortune.com/2017/11/13/geore-sor ... -congress/
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WarRI1
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:32 am

I heard tonight on the news that John McCain will support the new Senate Version of the Tax Bill which will eliminate the Individual Mandate so that it effectively kills the ACA and that it will cost 13 million people healthcare coverage over a specified time. 13 million!!!! I consider John McCain a Hero and I will be stunned if he votes for this screwing of the people he so Valiantly fought for, rich and poor alike. :bitelip:
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:29 am

You have to give it to the Republicans. They want to repeal the individual mandate because it is not effective in getting people insurance, however they are depending on the CBO's analysis of the effect of repealing it((loss of government subsidies to the 13 million newly uninsured) to give them back the subsidies to pay for the tax cuts.

At the end of the day the GOP is going to be know as the group that destroyed the USA. They are going to cause expanding deficits, and skyrocketing medical costs. All for bribes to the rich.
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WarRI1
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:37 am

That is the Problem with the Republicans, they cannot keep themselves from being greedy. The get power and then abuse it until they get thrown out again. Let us hope this is a short stay in power. I cannot vote Republican any more where I live, you do not dare to for the reasons above. I used to split my vote, not anymore.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
jetwet1
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:27 pm

I am amazed nobody has raised the question of the corporate tax cuts so far, I would suggest that you do some research on S Corps and what the cut in the corp rate means to the highest earners.
 
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:23 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
I am amazed nobody has raised the question of the corporate tax cuts so far, I would suggest that you do some research on S Corps and what the cut in the corp rate means to the highest earners.


Here is an article that should be pointed out to the ones that think wages will rise with the tax cuts. Very few CEO's plan to invest more .

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/36044 ... ore-if-tax
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jetwet1
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:09 pm

casinterest wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
I am amazed nobody has raised the question of the corporate tax cuts so far, I would suggest that you do some research on S Corps and what the cut in the corp rate means to the highest earners.


Here is an article that should be pointed out to the ones that think wages will rise with the tax cuts. Very few CEO's plan to invest more .

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/36044 ... ore-if-tax


Nope, you missed it, do some research, see how many of the top wage earners run through an S Corp, and what the tax cuts will do to their take home earnings...
 
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casinterest
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:17 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
I am amazed nobody has raised the question of the corporate tax cuts so far, I would suggest that you do some research on S Corps and what the cut in the corp rate means to the highest earners.


Here is an article that should be pointed out to the ones that think wages will rise with the tax cuts. Very few CEO's plan to invest more .

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/36044 ... ore-if-tax


Nope, you missed it, do some research, see how many of the top wage earners run through an S Corp, and what the tax cuts will do to their take home earnings...


This part is already known. CEO's and top wage earners will move around their money easily.

I was pointing out in my article that the CEO's have no intention of raising wages and investing more as the Republicans have suggested.
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Flighty
Posts: 8832
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:26 pm

akiss20 wrote:
There is quite a bit of outrage amongst us grad students because, as written, it eliminates the tuition waiver exemption. As a grad student, I currently get paid about $38K/yr on a stipend. That $38K/yr is taxable income and is what I use to live. The yearly tuition at my university is $66k/yr, but that tuition is paid by my research fellowship, and is also tax exempt. That money never goes into any of my accounts, it simply gets transferred from one account in my university (the research fund that funs me) to another. Under the current version of the tax bill, all $66k of that would be considered taxable income, bringing my "yearly income" to $104K/yr. Such an increase would result in approximately $10,000/yr of extra tax liability for me, or about 27% of my pre-tax income, and more like 40% of my post-tax income. This would simply be unsustainable for most graduate students. Rent alone is typically about 50-70% of the take home pay for a grad student in my area.

Apparently the GOP doesn't give a crap about advanced research. And before anyone accuses me of doing something "useless", I am an aerospace engineering graduate student.

https://www.wired.com/story/grad-studen ... should-be/


Wow, 38k/yr is this highest stipend I have heard of. This is more than full time job Junior faculty in Europe make. I was in this situation too, paying tuition when times got rough. That's a reality; it is your duty to pay taxes. I had to use $90k/yr earned income to survive as a grad student one year, and so can you. Pay your taxes. You are privileged as are the faculty. The irony of grad students lobbying for tax cuts/exemptions and unionization is a pleasure to watch. It feels like attending a child's tenth birthday.

The irony of $180k/yr or even $300k/yr liberal families howling about Democrat driven state taxation on the "middle class" is also a long hoped-for occasion. If you want lower taxes, reduce the size and cost of government like the rest of us. Those of us in the private sector pay taxes not only on our income, but note that our income consists of post-tax customer dollars. A government or nonprofit worker's income is paid with pretax customer dollars. Welcome to the real world. Eventually we will see that the real solution is to control and manage the size of government via an adult process. Many people live in a world where government spending should be infinite, but their personal taxes zero. Left and right. Can't work that way. Reality will hit eventually whether people want to admit it or not.
 
Flighty
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:32 pm

casinterest wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Here is an article that should be pointed out to the ones that think wages will rise with the tax cuts. Very few CEO's plan to invest more .

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/36044 ... ore-if-tax


Nope, you missed it, do some research, see how many of the top wage earners run through an S Corp, and what the tax cuts will do to their take home earnings...


This part is already known. CEO's and top wage earners will move around their money easily.

I was pointing out in my article that the CEO's have no intention of raising wages and investing more as the Republicans have suggested.


That would only be true if they forecast extreme despair among their customer base overriding the approx 40% or 15 percentage point cut in business income taxes. If the customers are okay then a lower tax rate on each project makes the decision size of each project larger. Not necessarily 15% more hiring although it could be. Certain things may well shrink as their tax burden is increased or initiated, graduate programs and local government tax bases being 2 examples.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15917
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Re: US Tax overhaul - Thoughts?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Here is an article that should be pointed out to the ones that think wages will rise with the tax cuts. Very few CEO's plan to invest more .

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/36044 ... ore-if-tax


Nope, you missed it, do some research, see how many of the top wage earners run through an S Corp, and what the tax cuts will do to their take home earnings...


This part is already known. CEO's and top wage earners will move around their money easily.

I was pointing out in my article that the CEO's have no intention of raising wages and investing more as the Republicans have suggested.

:checkmark: They've had more profits stashed away than they know what to do with, literally, for a while now.
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