Scipio
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New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:48 pm

In implementation of the “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA) that was adopted this summer, the State Department yesterday published a list of Russian firms and government agencies to which the Act will apply. Several key aerospace firms are on the list, including Sukhoi, Tupolev, Mig, United Aircraft Corporation, and United Engine Corporation.

CAATSA requires sanctions to be imposed on anyone, in the US or elsewhere, who engages in "significant transactions" with the listed companies and agencies. This requirement becomes effective on January 29, 2018.

If strictly applied, CAATSA could severely limit the ability of these Russian firms to find new international business and business partners. It could, among other things, severely limit the international market prospects for the Sukhoi Superjet and the MC-21, as well as accelerate the phasing-out of legacy Soviet/Russian military equipment by former Warsaw Pact member states.

How strictly it will be applied remains unclear, as illustrated by a briefing held by the State Department yesterday:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2017/10/275164.htm

Here is the full list of targeted companies and agencies:

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/caatsa/275116.htm

CAATSA Section 231(d) List Regarding the Defense Sector of the Government of the Russian Federation

Admiralty Shipyard JSC
Almaz-Antey Air and Space Defense Corporation JSC
Dolgoprudny Research Production JSC
Federal Research and Production Center Titan Barrikady JSC (Titan Design Bureau)
Izhevsk Mechanical Plant (Baikal)
Izhmash Concern JSC
Kalashnikov Concern JSC
Kalinin Machine Building Plant JSC (KMZ)
KBP Instrument Design Bureau
MIC NPO Mashinostroyenia
Molot Oruzhie
Mytishchinski Mashinostroitelny Zavod
Novator Experimental Design Bureau
NPO High Precision Systems JSC
NPO Splav JSC
Oboronprom OJSC
Radio-Electronic Technologies (KRET)
Radiotechnical and Information Systems (RTI) Concern
Research and Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod JSC
Rosoboronexport OJSC (ROE)
Rostec (Russian Technologies State Corporation)
Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG
Russian Helicopters JSC
Sozvezdie Concern JSC
State Research and Production Enterprise Bazalt JSC
Sukhoi Aviation JSC
Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC
Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute JSC
Tupolev JSC
United Aircraft Corporation
United Engine Corporation
United Instrument Manufacturing Corporation
United Shipbuilding Corporation

CAATSA Section 231(d) List Regarding the Intelligence Sector of the Government of the Russian Federation

Autonomous Noncommercial Professional Organization/Professional Association of Designers of Data Processing (ANO PO KSI)
Federal Security Service (FSB)
Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR)
Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces (GRU)
Special Technology Center
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SAS A340
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:18 am

Will be interesting to see Russia's reaction on this... probably a lot of :hissyfit: :hissyfit:
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salttee
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:34 am

How did they miss Kaspersky Systems?
They would have been first on my list.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:48 am

All of these companies are all involved in Russian military hardware design and production. It's a pretty wide list, containing everything from shipbuilding, radio-electronics, missile design and production, and of course, aviation.

Of the current ex-Eastern bloc allies, most have worked to bring the technical capabilities to maintain their hardware either in country, or have found alternative suppliers from other fellow ex-Eastern bloc allies, or have already started switching over the Western hardware.
 
tu204
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:49 am

Looks like the US military industrial complex is afraid of competing with products that are at their level or exceed theirs.

All the above mentioned firms should take this as a compliment.

Btw, KMZ also makes elevators. As in elevators in apartment buildings.
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Andre3K
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:16 pm

tu204 wrote:

All the above mentioned firms should take this as a compliment.

.


Yeah because i'm sure they are worried about prestige with a move like this. :sarcastic:
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:50 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
Will be interesting to see Russia's reaction on this... probably a lot of :hissyfit: :hissyfit:


They'll forbid US Treasury people to open bank accounts in bank branches in Perm, prohibit them from vacationing in Dudinka, and from sightseeing tours during their visits to Batagay fashion week.
In the meantime, also invade another peaceful neighbor, to "really show them this time".
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tu204
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:42 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
Will be interesting to see Russia's reaction on this... probably a lot of :hissyfit: :hissyfit:


They'll forbid US Treasury people to open bank accounts in bank branches in Perm, prohibit them from vacationing in Dudinka, and from sightseeing tours during their visits to Batagay fashion week.
In the meantime, also invade another peaceful neighbor, to "really show them this time".


Nah, prolly throw out some diplomats and confiscate some US properties in Russia. Could sanction NASA or whoever it is that buys our rocket engines, however I personally am against sanctions that ban the sale of Russian products as it damages Russian jobs and economy. Much better to ban the sale of American products here like we did with produce in response to your sanctions a couple of years back.

What I would like to see is wait till the MS-21 enters production and then throw some sanctions at Boeing, prohibiting sales of 737 series aircraft here. :lol:
Wishfull thinking on the last one of course, but who knows...

Unfortunately what probably will happen is nothing. This is for "internal consumption" for Americans and nothing will happen. Just like with many of the previous sanctions where trade still goes on, just through third parties.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:20 pm

tu204 wrote:
Just like with many of the previous sanctions where trade still goes on, just through third parties.


Yes indeed, many Russian sanctions are easily defeated like this and Belarus is thanking Putin I guess. The western sanctions are much more precise. What is Russia going to do, try to get the helicopter carriers via a third party. :lol:

"as it damages Russian jobs and economy." Putin's behavior against Russia's neighbours damages the Russian economy and jobs, so I guess you are against him. Good to know.
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tu204
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Just like with many of the previous sanctions where trade still goes on, just through third parties.


Yes indeed, many Russian sanctions are easily defeated like this and Belarus is thanking Putin I guess. The western sanctions are much more precise. What is Russia going to do, try to get the helicopter carriers via a third party. :lol:

"as it damages Russian jobs and economy." Putin's behavior against Russia's neighbours damages the Russian economy and jobs, so I guess you are against him. Good to know.


Waaaaa? :roll: You seem to be out of the loop. Nobody other than you thinks that the Mistral (helicopter carrier) deal was a win for Russia.

Lets see:

France is pressured into not delivering them to Russia.

France refunds 1,2 billion Euro to Russia.
France pays up to Russian shipyards that manufactured the stern section and a bunch of equipment.
France pays to redesign the Ka-52 helicopters that are afterwards sold to Egypt.
France sells the carriers for 950 million at a nice loss to Egypt.
France in this whole process shares blueprints and technology with Russia so that we can pretty much clone them or incorporate into a Russian design.
Russia, for free modifies the Ka-52 into a Naval variant and sells them to Egypt.
Russia gets technology for free.
Russian shipyards make some stuff and get paid for it.

Buddy, looks to me like you guys screwed yourself royally while giving us the cake. And Egypt got some nicely priced equipment in the process. :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:45 pm

So you believe then that Putin's Russia wanted to screw over its own industry by ordering it in the first place, thanks don't add up in your defence of your great leader :rotfl:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
So you believe then that Putin's Russia wanted to screw over its own industry by ordering it in the first place, thanks don't add up in your defence of your great leader :rotfl:


Hell I don't know why they ordered it in the first place.

However the outcome of the situation shows once again that Russians are able to think on their feet and take advantage of a quickly changing scenario.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:34 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you believe then that Putin's Russia wanted to screw over its own industry by ordering it in the first place, thanks don't add up in your defence of your great leader :rotfl:


Hell I don't know why they ordered it in the first place.

However the outcome of the situation shows once again that Russians are able to think on their feet and take advantage of a quickly changing scenario.


Haha, thanks for a laugh this morning. Just continue to believe in your beloved leader, it is quite amusing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you believe then that Putin's Russia wanted to screw over its own industry by ordering it in the first place, thanks don't add up in your defence of your great leader :rotfl:


Hell I don't know why they ordered it in the first place.

However the outcome of the situation shows once again that Russians are able to think on their feet and take advantage of a quickly changing scenario.


Haha, thanks for a laugh this morning. Just continue to believe in your beloved leader, it is quite amusing.


Likewise thanks))

Amusing to see such nieve and ignorant people shoot themselves in the foot with arguments like yours about those helicopter carriers, especially since you picked probably the best example on how you guys in the West screwed yourselves so royally from all directions all in one deal. :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:34 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Hell I don't know why they ordered it in the first place.

However the outcome of the situation shows once again that Russians are able to think on their feet and take advantage of a quickly changing scenario.


Haha, thanks for a laugh this morning. Just continue to believe in your beloved leader, it is quite amusing.


Likewise thanks))

Amusing to see such nieve and ignorant people shoot themselves in the foot with arguments like yours about those helicopter carriers, especially since you picked probably the best example on how you guys in the West screwed yourselves so royally from all directions all in one deal. :lol:


As someone else in another thread pointed out, we can't ask you to be critical of the Putin regime, so I quite understand your reaction here. I will not ask you to endanger yourself to push you to be critical of your beloved leader.

So I will not push you to think about that the EU is ok with the small sacrifices on our economy to send a strong signal that annexing a piece of land is not ok anno 2017, destabilizing neighboring countries, is not ok anno 2017, fighting a covert war in a neighboring country, is not ok anno 2017, having a troll army to influence democratic elections and public opinion in America, France, Spain (Catalunia) and Germany (probably, haven't heard anything about it, in the other countries it is proven), is not ok anno 2017.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:55 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
Will be interesting to see Russia's reaction on this... probably a lot of :hissyfit: :hissyfit:


It will be even more interesting to see the EU’s reaction because this isn’t the complete list it also targets the gas pipelines under construction like Nord Stream and pipeline maintenance, this affects Europe more than Russia. I hope the EU grows a pair and tell the US to stick it.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Just like with many of the previous sanctions where trade still goes on, just through third parties.


Yes indeed, many Russian sanctions are easily defeated like this and Belarus is thanking Putin I guess. The western sanctions are much more precise. What is Russia going to do, try to get the helicopter carriers via a third party. :lol:


There are three other countries making out like bandits over this not just Belarus, the Baltic countries are big transit point for loads of sanctioned equipment heading to Russia. There banks are also willing to work with Russian banks.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So I will not push you to think about that the EU is ok with the small sacrifices on our economy to send a strong signal that annexing a piece of land is not ok anno 2017, destabilizing neighboring countries, is not ok anno 2017, fighting a covert war in a neighboring country, is not ok anno 2017, having a troll army to influence democratic elections and public opinion in America, France, Spain (Catalunia) and Germany (probably, haven't heard anything about it, in the other countries it is proven), is not ok anno 2017.


Speak for yourself, I believe the vast majority of Europeans aren’t interested in what happens in Ukraine, what they will be interested in is the other parts to this new round of US sanctions where the US will target industries like the gas pipelines from Russia to the EU, it doesn’t effect the US at all but it will creat huge problem for Europe and vastly more expensive gas. The US wants a market for its expensive shale gas, it’s not hard to join the dots. As I said the EU nests to grow a pair, the US should be acting extraterritoriality and causing problem for US.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So you believe then that Putin's Russia wanted to screw over its own industry by ordering it in the first place, thanks don't add up in your defence of your great leader :rotfl:


Not the case at all, Russian designers and yards had never designed or built a helicopter carrier before. This was a technology transfer exercise for Russia, through buying the 4 Mistrals they got a jumpstart. The second 2 vessels were going to be built in Russia. So now Russian designers have the experience in working with the vessels, USC has the experience in building the hulls, it was a win win situation.
 
VSMUT
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:22 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It will be even more interesting to see the EU’s reaction because this isn’t the complete list it also targets the gas pipelines under construction like Nord Stream and pipeline maintenance, this affects Europe more than Russia. I hope the EU grows a pair and tell the US to stick it.


Kiwirob wrote:
Speak for yourself, I believe the vast majority of Europeans aren’t interested in what happens in Ukraine, what they will be interested in is the other parts to this new round of US sanctions where the US will target industries like the gas pipelines from Russia to the EU, it doesn’t effect the US at all but it will creat huge problem for Europe and vastly more expensive gas. The US wants a market for its expensive shale gas, it’s not hard to join the dots. As I said the EU nests to grow a pair, the US should be acting extraterritoriality and causing problem for US.


Exactly, it's just another protectionist move from the US. They aren't altruistic (and haven't been for the last 70 years), they only act in their own interests. The EU needs to start defending european interests against both Russia and the US. Changing our energy dependence from cheap Russian gas to expensive American gas isn't in our interest.

Dutchy wrote:
So I will not push you to think about that the EU is ok with the small sacrifices on our economy to send a strong signal that annexing a piece of land is not ok anno 2017, destabilizing neighboring countries, is not ok anno 2017, fighting a covert war in a neighboring country, is not ok anno 2017, having a troll army to influence democratic elections and public opinion in America, France, Spain (Catalunia) and Germany (probably, haven't heard anything about it, in the other countries it is proven), is not ok anno 2017.


Oh please, ignoring the annexations, the US is just as guilty of all these points, if not more so, and we blindly follow them through one war after the other.
 
seb146
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:17 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So I will not push you to think about that the EU is ok with the small sacrifices on our economy to send a strong signal that annexing a piece of land is not ok anno 2017, destabilizing neighboring countries, is not ok anno 2017, fighting a covert war in a neighboring country, is not ok anno 2017, having a troll army to influence democratic elections and public opinion in America, France, Spain (Catalunia) and Germany (probably, haven't heard anything about it, in the other countries it is proven), is not ok anno 2017.


Speak for yourself, I believe the vast majority of Europeans aren’t interested in what happens in Ukraine, what they will be interested in is the other parts to this new round of US sanctions where the US will target industries like the gas pipelines from Russia to the EU, it doesn’t effect the US at all but it will creat huge problem for Europe and vastly more expensive gas. The US wants a market for its expensive shale gas, it’s not hard to join the dots. As I said the EU nests to grow a pair, the US should be acting extraterritoriality and causing problem for US.


I think Europeans are extremely interested in what happens in Ukraine. If Russia can take Ukraine easily, what is to stop them from taking Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, etc? Europe may not be interested in gas pipelines in Ukraine, but they are probably watching a hostile government take over sovereign nations.
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Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:21 am

Russia hasn’t taken Ukraine, they’ve taken a small portion, Crimea, which has never wanted to be part of Ukraine.

None of the Norwegians I know are interested. Most of them in my industry are more annoyed at the loss of business than Ukraine. My friends and family just don’t care, it’s Ukraine after all. Russia has never made any attempt real or imagined to take the Baltic States or Moldova.

The gas pipelines which the US sanctions are targeting bypass Ukraine, Nordstream goes under the Baltic Sea direct to Germany, the Germans are not happy with the interference.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:41 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Russia hasn’t taken Ukraine, they’ve taken a small portion...

Which is more than enough reason to sanction them back into the stone age, don't you think?

Kiwirob wrote:
The gas pipelines which the US sanctions are targeting bypass Ukraine...

Which is exactly the reason why russians should never be allowed to build it. If new pipelines are built, russians have no longer economic risk, if they invade more of Ukraine, and make pipeline areas a war zone.

Anyway, the pro-muscovy crowd has hijacked this thread to the point where it was kicked from MilAv to NonAv.

Moderators, is it possible to clear out pro-aggressor garbage here, so the thread can be restored to MilAv?
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tommy1808
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:03 am

Phosphorus wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Russia hasn’t taken Ukraine, they’ve taken a small portion...

Which is more than enough reason to sanction them back into the stone age, don't you think?


In a just world the reaction would be the same as the reaction towards Iraqs invasion of Kuwait....

Did Trump already sign sanctions against his friend Erdogan over his order of Russian military equipment?

best regards
Thomas
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Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:30 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Russia hasn’t taken Ukraine, they’ve taken a small portion...

Which is more than enough reason to sanction them back into the stone age, don't you think?


No because that small portion of Ukraine has never wanted to be part of Ukraine.

Kiwirob wrote:
The gas pipelines which the US sanctions are targeting bypass Ukraine...


Which is exactly the reason why russians should never be allowed to build it. If new pipelines are built, russians have no longer economic risk, if they invade more of Ukraine, and make pipeline areas a war zone.
[/quote]

The Germans are also paying for the construction, it’s not just a Russian project. Going through Ukraine is a risk why should european consumers gas supply be risked going through an unstable country? Also this has nothing to do with the US, it doesn’t impact on the US to any degree so why should the US be allowed to impose sanctions which will cause major problems to their apparent allies?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:33 pm

So finally US figured out who was supplying guidance systems to DPRK.
 
tommy1808
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:20 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
no because that small portion of Ukraine has never wanted to be part of Ukraine.


right. They wanted independence, which is why the invader didn´t put that option on the ballot.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
WIederling
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:35 pm

seb146 wrote:
I think Europeans are extremely interested in what happens in Ukraine. If Russia can take Ukraine easily, what is to stop them from taking Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, etc? Europe may not be interested in gas pipelines in Ukraine, but they are probably watching a hostile government take over sovereign nations.


Here in Germany most of the "brighter" people I meet see through the smoke screen that media have created over Ukraine.
to wit: US and EU influencing and funneling moneys into Ukraine to sponsor a bunch of fascists and oligarchs
into power and provoke the RF. Burning doormat thing.

Poland is in the same sinking boat. Poland disloyally doing the US bidding to entangle EU inner workings ...
The Northstream Pipeline was a direct circumnavigational necessity. ( reason why it is so heavily lambasted in
the US centric advert dependent press here.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
Here in Germany most of the "brighter" people I meet see through the smoke screen that media have created over Ukraine.
to wit: US and EU influencing and funneling moneys into Ukraine to sponsor a bunch of fascists and oligarchs
into power and provoke the RF. Burning doormat thing.

Poland is in the same sinking boat. Poland disloyally doing the US bidding to entangle EU inner workings ...
The Northstream Pipeline was a direct circumnavigational necessity. ( reason why it is so heavily lambasted in
the US centric advert dependent press here.)


Clear. These "brighter" people are apparently illuminated to the point of becoming a "putinversteher" and/or looking for "illuminati" behind issues.

Provoking RF is unnecessary. This abomination is competent enough in going on murder sprees under its inner urges, like wishes to expand territories, "seeking strategic depth", protecting "russian world" and whatnot. It likes money though, and that's where it needs to be struck -- at the purse. Preferably putting it out of the business for good.
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WIederling
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:59 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Clear. These "brighter" people are apparently illuminated to the point of becoming a "putinversteher" and/or looking for "illuminati" behind issues.


Sucessfull business people, academics. Definitely not "Unterschichten TV" Viewers. :-)

How is the lighting in your cul de sac?
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Phosphorus
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:23 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The Germans are also paying for the construction, it’s not just a Russian project.


And this proves what? That some financial and business interests are ready to appease for an extra profit? Or even cooperate with aggressors, to generate more income. Thats' not news. Lenin was clear: "the capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them on"

These days, some of the less wise (though clearly clever enough to profit from it) will issue putin and his gang enough loans -- so russians can buy more rope.
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bhill
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:56 pm

tu204 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
Will be interesting to see Russia's reaction on this... probably a lot of :hissyfit: :hissyfit:


They'll forbid US Treasury people to open bank accounts in bank branches in Perm, prohibit them from vacationing in Dudinka, and from sightseeing tours during their visits to Batagay fashion week.
In the meantime, also invade another peaceful neighbor, to "really show them this time".


Nah, prolly throw out some diplomats and confiscate some US properties in Russia. Could sanction NASA or whoever it is that buys our rocket engines, however I personally am against sanctions that ban the sale of Russian products as it damages Russian jobs and economy. Much better to ban the sale of American products here like we did with produce in response to your sanctions a couple of years back.

What I would like to see is wait till the MS-21 enters production and then throw some sanctions at Boeing, prohibiting sales of 737 series aircraft here. :lol:
Wishfull thinking on the last one of course, but who knows...

Unfortunately what probably will happen is nothing. This is for "internal consumption" for Americans and nothing will happen. Just like with many of the previous sanctions where trade still goes on, just through third parties.



No worries...The Russians have a firm rocket engine customer with North Korea.
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Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:57 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
no because that small portion of Ukraine has never wanted to be part of Ukraine.


right. They wanted independence, which is why the invader didn´t put that option on the ballot.

best regards
Thomas


They wanted to be free from Ukraine, I seriously doubt the 60plus percent of them who are ethnic Russians wanted anything other than being part of Russia again. They got what they have wanted since 1991, maybe we should just leave them alone.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:59 am

Phosphorus wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The Germans are also paying for the construction, it’s not just a Russian project.


And this proves what? That some financial and business interests are ready to appease for an extra profit? Or even cooperate with aggressors, to generate more income. Thats' not news. Lenin was clear: "the capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them on"

These days, some of the less wise (though clearly clever enough to profit from it) will issue putin and his gang enough loans -- so russians can buy more rope.


And the German govt, you can’t forget the German govt and the EU, they’ll all pretty pissed at the US for the lasted round and have threatened embargo’s against some US products, the one I though was funny was American whiskey, who drinks that shit anyway?
 
WIederling
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:07 am

Kiwirob wrote:
And the German govt, you can’t forget the German govt and the EU, they’ll all pretty pissed at the US for the lasted round and have threatened embargo’s against some US products, the one I though was funny was American whiskey, who drinks that shit anyway?


Expats ?

( I am going with your judgment :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:05 am

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
no because that small portion of Ukraine has never wanted to be part of Ukraine.


right. They wanted independence, which is why the invader didn´t put that option on the ballot.

best regards
Thomas


They wanted to be free from Ukraine, I seriously doubt the 60plus percent of them who are ethnic Russians wanted anything other than being part of Russia again. They got what they have wanted since 1991, maybe we should just leave them alone.


So just move people in some region and than it is ok just to annex them. Check.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So just move people in some region and than it is ok just to annex them. Check.


They’ve been at it for over 100 years. It’s now Russian as it was before, I think this ones not worth complains about.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:57 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So just move people in some region and than it is ok just to annex them. Check.


They’ve been at it for over 100 years. It’s now Russian as it was before, I think this ones not worth complains about.


My advice to you is to look into the history of the Crimea and look at that statement again. But following your train of thought, if I were in government I would though out large groups of other ethnic groups, because other countries could just claim it and this will be all fine by Kiwirob, nobody can complain.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So just move people in some region and than it is ok just to annex them. Check.


They’ve been at it for over 100 years. It’s now Russian as it was before, I think this ones not worth complains about.


My advice to you is to look into the history of the Crimea and look at that statement again. But following your train of thought, if I were in government I would though out large groups of other ethnic groups, because other countries could just claim it and this will be all fine by Kiwirob, nobody can complain.


Sanctity of national borders has been trashed by the US while pushing for "disassembly" of Jugoslavia.
Taking what is not theirs aka "annexion" was established by induction of Hawaii into the US much earlier.

As a precedent of instantiating "ancient" rights for some home territory the state of Israel is a distasteful example.
Beyond "God assigned" ( which one is authoritative ;-) how do you determine who has rights to some territory?
The group of humans to first access that region ever? The one that fits ones current political agenda ( seems to be the absolute winner )?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:19 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

They’ve been at it for over 100 years. It’s now Russian as it was before, I think this ones not worth complains about.


My advice to you is to look into the history of the Crimea and look at that statement again. But following your train of thought, if I were in government I would though out large groups of other ethnic groups, because other countries could just claim it and this will be all fine by Kiwirob, nobody can complain.


Sanctity of national borders has been trashed by the US while pushing for "disassembly" of Jugoslavia.
Taking what is not theirs aka "annexion" was established by induction of Hawaii into the US much earlier.

As a precedent of instantiating "ancient" rights for some home territory the state of Israel is a distasteful example.
Beyond "God assigned" ( which one is authoritative ;-) how do you determine who has rights to some territory?
The group of humans to first access that region ever? The one that fits ones current political agenda ( seems to be the absolute winner )?


Yugoslavia is a whole different story. Don't think the US had anything to do with that. That was Milosovich playing the national card in 1989, I think. You might think about the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and you might have a case there, although the circumstances were different. But most importantly, two wrongs don't make it right.

The annexation of Hawaii? Why not go way back to the beginning of time? The question is, do we as a world really want our main occupation be tribal warfare, or could we move beyond that? I would argue we could and should move away from that and move towards a more peaceful world.

To answer the question on how we determine the rights someone has on some piece of land. It is quite established how:
1. recognized international borders, the status quo.
2. if unclear, international courts are there to determine it peacefully.
3. if some part of a country wants to secrete from a nation, well have a real referendum (don't need to tell you that the one they held was fake, now do I?)

So in that sense indeed, the case of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is indeed flawed and should have been handled differently, so you are quite right about that, well done.

What Russia is doing is in a totally different league and that must be stopped and sanctions are a good way to go if they hurt the leadership the most.
1. stop playing the national Russian card in other countries, including in Ukriane
2. return Crimea to Ukraine (and dismantle the base there, they have given up the lease so that should be no problem)
3. stop meddling in other countries elections as having been shown in quite a few elections already.

Then we welcome the Russian Federation back in the more civilized world. Then it is up to the Russians to decide if they want to keep this autocratic leader or not.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:20 am

Give up with the returning Crimea to Ukraine, it’s about as likely as the US returning Hawaii to the Hawaiians. The majority of Crimeans have no desire to be Ukrainian so why force them?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So just move people in some region and than it is ok just to annex them. Check.


They’ve been at it for over 100 years. It’s now Russian as it was before, I think this ones not worth complains about.


My advice to you is to look into the history of the Crimea and look at that statement again. But following your train of thought, if I were in government I would though out large groups of other ethnic groups, because other countries could just claim it and this will be all fine by Kiwirob, nobody can complain.


Crimea first became a part of Russia in 1783, the Russian population has been growing since then, it became majority ethnic Russian somewhere between the census of 1897 and the next census of 1926.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:34 am

Since 1783 it was annexed 3 times by Russia. The first time was indeed in 1783. And with deliberated population planning it was made Russian.

Setting aside if the Crimea would be part of Russia if the population were to choose for it in a truly free referendum. You are opening pandora's box if you are ok with this. If another country just can annex part of another country. And you are the one arguing that this medieval type of society is the way forward and not the rule of law.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Since 1783 it was annexed 3 times by Russia. The first time was indeed in 1783. And with deliberated population planning it was made Russian.

Setting aside if the Crimea would be part of Russia if the population were to choose for it in a truly free referendum. You are opening pandora's box if you are ok with this. If another country just can annex part of another country. And you are the one arguing that this medieval type of society is the way forward and not the rule of law.


I wouldn't call it annexing, I'd call it taking back what was rightfully theirs.

For example I don't see why anyone would be upset if the majority Austrian South Tyrol region in Northern Italy was annexed by Austria, historically, linguistically it's Austrian. Nor would I are if the Northern Part of Belgium was annexed by The Netherlands.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:33 pm

Ok, you can call it what you like. The rest of the world is calling it correctly: annexation.

So to which time would you like to go back? Perhaps my hometown Utrecht can be annexed by Italy again, they founded it so I guess it is rightfully theirs.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Perhaps my hometown Utrecht can be annexed by Italy again, they founded it so I guess it is rightfully theirs.


No way, Spanish claim is more recent, and a lot of Spanish blood has been spilled all over the Low Countries, so it's Spanish. Clearly. Even your anthem has a reference to the King of Spain, so you've admitted it yourself. (no, I am not joking, this is the typical garbage Russkies and their apologists generate, when claiming their territorial grabs are legitimate -- some Russian blood has been spilled there, or it's their "glory city", or it's mentioned in a song somewhere; but most importantly -- the Russians they brought over in their colonization drive were not kicked out, but were graciously allowed to remain. So now the territory has to be grabbed by Russia, 'cause some Russians are there.)
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Dutchy
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:03 pm

It also refers to German blood and the NAZI's occupation is much more resent, so I guess it belongs to them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:41 pm

Erdogan is encouraging foreign Turks (meaning Germans) to have at least 5 kids, I guess at some point he plans to annex Germany.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tu204
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:08 pm

Give it a rest.

Crimea is never going back to Ukraine especially after seeing the gang-run dump that place became in the last 3 years. Hell I'll be a little surprised if there even is a Ukraine in 10 years in their current borders.

These sanctions have done absolutely nothing towards the stated goal of changing Russian foreign policy in 3 years, so you gotta be an idiot to believe that any more will do anything towards this goal. If that is the goal ofcourse.

Looks more likely that the US is trying to put some cheap pressure on some competition. Be it gas or arms. And they found people stupid enough to believe the reasons thatbthey are stating.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Kiwirob
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Re: New US sanctions against Russian defense firms

Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, you can call it what you like. The rest of the world is calling it correctly: annexation.

So to which time would you like to go back? Perhaps my hometown Utrecht can be annexed by Italy again, they founded it so I guess it is rightfully theirs.


But your example is ridiculous, Utrecht isn’t remotely close to Italy and you don’t speak Italian, ditto for the other idiots Spainish claim, not close not shared border, language, ethnicity or history, something which cannot be said of South Tyrol and Austria, Flanders and Netherlands or Crimea and Russia.

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