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scbriml
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F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:19 pm

OK, here's a new thread to discuss the last five races of what is turning out to be a very interesting season.

Enjoy...
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:22 pm

Japan FP1 & FP2

Vettel fastest in FP1, just 0.2 ahead of Hamilton. Hamilton fastest in a very wet and curtailed FP2 in which only a handful of drivers even set a time. Not sure we learned very much.

FP3 and qualifying on Saturday look as though they'll be dry. I'll be recording qualifying and watching it when I can be bothered to drag my arse out of bed later on Saturday morning.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:13 pm

Thanks for opening the thread!

An interesting detail: no car retired from the 2016 Japanese Grand Prix, and the same happened in 2015.

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:36 am

Grid penalties so far for Japan:

Carlos Sainz Jr- 20

For his 5th ICE, 5th turbo and 6th MGU-H

Valtteri Bottas- 5

For unauthorised gearbox change

Fernando Alonso- 35

For a complete engine change which includes 8th ICE, 10th turbo, 10th MGU-H, 8th MGU-K, 7th energy store and 6th control electronics unit. Reportedly curfew was broken to make the swap overnight.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 am

Jolyon Palmer- 20

His 5th ICE, 6th turbo and 6th MGU-H
 
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:15 am

And the penalties keep coming.

Kimi Raikkonen- 5

Gearbox change after crashing in FP3.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:16 am

First Pole for HAM at Suzuka.
Vettel will start P2.

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:26 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
First Pole for HAM at Suzuka.


A mighty qualifying session for Hamilton. Nobody looked remotely like challenging him.

So, after penalties we have the two championship contenders starting on the front row. Can't wait... :hyper:
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:35 am

Al those grid penalties isn't very sporty :-(
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:01 am

Well, well, well - another nightmare for Ferrari! When you see an engine cover off on the grid you know something is not right.
Image

A fairly controlled race for Hamilton, although he might just say a quiet "thank you" to Alonso who appeared to hold up Verstappen's charge in the last couple of laps when Hamilton reported an engine vibration.

Hamilton is now 59 points clear in the WDC with just four races left. I'd expect the Mercs to be fairly strong in Austin, so he'll be hoping to finish ahead of Vettel there. Any more troubles for Vettel and he might find himself behind Bottas. That said, I wonder how much Mercedes are having to manage their engines?

In the WCC, Mercedes now lead Ferrari by a massive 145 points.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:04 pm

Not the most exciting race, but a good result for Mercedes.
This race confirmed a few things we already knew:

Hamilton is quite a bit quicker than Bottas.
Ferrari suddenly suffers terrible reliability, RAI`s race trim wasn´t impressive either.
VET once again provoked the stewards, this time for missing the Japanese anthem.
Another dreadful race for Sainz, which proves Red Bull made the correct decision when promoting VER.
Ocon and Perez are still not friends, a lot of bitching over the radio by PER.

I think the championship is as good as decided, if HAM wins in the US of A, VET will have to finish 6th or better to avoid losing the championship right there.

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:59 pm

HAM 306pts
VET 247pts

59 point lead with 4 races to go.

Let me be the first to congratulate Hamilton for winning the 2017 WDC. The only thing that can stop HAM are mechanical DNFs. There is no need for him to go flat out and risk crashing with another driver. Even if VET wins the last 4 races, HAM can finish 4th every time and still win the WDC with 11points.

Will be more interesting to watch the Redbulls, and especially VER. Compared to the beginning of the season, these last two GPs must be something of a dream for him.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:35 pm

notaxonrotax wrote:
Ferrari suddenly suffers terrible reliability, RAI`s race trim wasn´t impressive either.


As much as I quite like him, I'm afraid it will be a case of "Arrivederci Arrivabene" at the end of the season. One wonders if Ferrari have pushed themselves and their cars over the limit to try and catch Mercedes.

notaxonrotax wrote:
Ocon and Perez are still not friends, a lot of bitching over the radio by PER.


I think what we saw there was Force India employing the team orders they said they would after the fiasco of Spa. IMHO, that's come back to bite PER on the ass.

notaxonrotax wrote:
I think the championship is as good as decided


It would take a HAM or Mercedes implosion of monumental proportions to lose either title now. After the Austrian GP, Vettel had a 20 point lead and was consistently scoring more points than Hamilton. In the last seven races we've seen a 79 point swing in HAM's favour. I'm astonished at the turn-around.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:33 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
Grid penalties so far for Japan:

Fernando Alonso- 35

Does he have to start from the parking lot? :shock:
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:54 pm

Alonso being naughty again, not reacting to blue flags.
He will be penalized.

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:13 pm

Moose135 wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
Grid penalties so far for Japan:

Fernando Alonso- 35

Does he have to start from the parking lot? :shock:


:lol: Can't guarantee the Honda engine reaching the track from the parking lot AND finishing the race.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:20 am

Well, I guess the championship was handed to Hamilton on a silver platter? Could he be any luckier. As always, we saw great class from Vettel, thanking all of his engineers/mechanics individually after the retirement.

Great race from K-MAG as always, very nice overtake of Massa.

Outside of F1, we saw the championships of F2 and GP3 being decided. Charles Leclerc won Formula 2 and George Russell GP3. I think Leclerc is going to have one of the Sauber seats next year (he is a Ferrari junior), though I'm not sure if that's confirmed. Russell is a Mercedes junior.


notaxonrotax wrote:
Hamilton is quite a bit quicker than Bottas.

I think it's more a case of Bottas being incredibly slow...his pace since the summer break as been hopeless. I wonder what the cause is?

notaxonrotax wrote:
VET once again provoked the stewards, this time for missing the Japanese anthem.

The mechanics were busy pulling apart his car...he had more pressing issues to deal with.

The whole anthem thing is stupid. Drivers have only expected to be at the front of the grid for the anthem since the 2014 Russian GP at the behest of Putin. Unnecessary policy.

scbriml wrote:
As much as I quite like him, I'm afraid it will be a case of "Arrivederci Arrivabene" at the end of the season.

I won't miss him, tbh.

scbriml wrote:
I think what we saw there was Force India employing the team orders they said they would after the fiasco of Spa. IMHO, that's come back to bite PER on the ass.

Good to see the team holding firm. It's been proven that allowing the two drivers to race invariably results in a disaster for the team. I'm not normally in favour of team orders, but they have their time and place and this is very much the situation they should be used in. As ever, one has to commend Force India for fighting much further up the field than what one would think is possible with their budget.


TheF15Ace wrote:
:lol: Can't guarantee the Honda engine reaching the track from the parking lot AND finishing the race.

We laugh and yet Honda have been far superior to Ferrari on the reliability front in the last few races. :banghead:

notaxonrotax wrote:
Alonso being naughty again, not reacting to blue flags.

Max would have had a great opportunity to overtake if it wasn't for him getting in the way.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:34 am

zkojq wrote:
Could he be any luckier.


The more he practices, the luckier he gets! :wink2:

I'd agree that he "lucked into" the win in Singapore (just like Verstappen in Spain last year), but then most top drivers inherit the odd win here and there due to a mechanical or driver error. Apart from the last couple of laps after the VSC, nobody had got near Hamilton all weekend, so I wouldn't call that win lucky - Vettel's DNF was just the icing on the cake.

zkojq wrote:
I think it's more a case of Bottas being incredibly slow...his pace since the summer break as been hopeless. I wonder what the cause is?


He's clearly not as quick as Hamilton, but then few are. I thought he was just about back to his normal level in Japan. Without the grid penalty for a gearbox change, he would quite possibly have managed to stay ahead of Ricciardo.

zkojq wrote:
The mechanics were busy pulling apart his car...he had more pressing issues to deal with.


He was standing there watching, he didn't have a wrench in his hand. It may be a stupid procedure, but it's now compulsory for the drivers to be there for the start of the anthem. He wasn't, so slapped wrist. The FIA do like their procedures! :sarcastic:

zkojq wrote:
Max would have had a great opportunity to overtake if it wasn't for him getting in the way.


Well, Alonso also held up Hamilton and Verstappen himself said even without the traffic he didn't think he would be able to overtake.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:03 am

zkojq wrote:
Great race from K-MAG as always, very nice overtake of Massa.


Yep. I was happy to see double points finish for Haas

I think it's more a case of Bottas being incredibly slow...his pace since the summer break as been hopeless. I wonder what the cause is?


But he seems to be getting his pace back. And with points difference to Seb dwindling he might be motivated to push harder.

Good to see the team holding firm. It's been proven that allowing the two drivers to race invariably results in a disaster for the team. I'm not normally in favour of team orders, but they have their time and place and this is very much the situation they should be used in. As ever, one has to commend Force India for fighting much further up the field than what one would think is possible with their budget.


:checkmark:

According to Otmar Szafnauer how long the situation lasts is upto Perez and Ocon with a possibility of team orders being used in 2018 as well.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/forc ... nk-963456/


We laugh and yet Honda have been far superior to Ferrari on the reliability front in the last few races. :banghead:


Fair enough :cry2:
 
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:35 am

zkojq wrote:
Well, I guess the championship was handed to Hamilton on a silver platter? Could he be any luckier. As always, we saw great class from Vettel.


A few comments on that, ZKOJQ:

Yes, VET´s mayhem is obviously grist to the mill of HAM.
Let`s be honest, there`s no way we can deny it. Neither does HAM, BTW.
But you´ve got to admit that they are doing a good job, HAM and Mercedes.
Reliability is also part of the game, not just speed.
Ferrari beat Mercedes quite a few times this year but not on sheer power, no! They did it by managing the tires a lot better.
Now it seems that the mechanical side of things comes back to hunt them. Maybe they tried to hard? Squeeze a little too much out of the Ferrari donks?!

That does not take away the fact that Mercedes and HAM prove to be a strong and reliable package, and they deserve credit for that.
Look at BOT´s and RAI´s speed in Japan.
Only HAM beat the Red Bulls, and that is not only luck!

Great class from VET? Yes, towards his mechanics; absolutely.
He has been bitching a LOT over the radio and in interviews though.
Not always showing great class, IMHO.
And he should not antagonize the officials too much. That may well bite him in the German butt, at some stage.

ZKOJQ: I realize you`re rooting against HAM or even in favour of VET....and I think we both agree that what we need for next year is a great battle between these two!
Add the 2 genius drivers with a decent Red Bull in the mix and we should have quite an exciting year to come.
I am afraid this year is over, although you never know: 2 DNF´s for HAM in the America´s and we might be going down to the wire yet.
"Yas" please...


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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:06 pm

When your opponents crash needlessly, is that luck, or is that your opponents being stupid ?

When you don't crash very often, and get great reliability from your engine/gearbox as a result, is that luck, or is that being good at your job and reaping the rewards ?

Aside from that, Red Bull has to be regretting the bad blood with Renault. They're consistently on podiums and winning some races for two years in a row, something only the works teams Merc and Ferrari can do, and teams with a Mercedes in the back can't (Force India the best of them is miles from RBR), and in one year no more Renault engine for them ! Imagine what a disaster a Red Bull Honda would be.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:46 pm

Aesma wrote:

Aside from that, Red Bull has to be regretting the bad blood with Renault. .


I see your point!
And believe me, the only F1 car 1:18 in my living room is a Williams Renault!

But to be fair....their performance has not been great before the summer.
I give you one example of how the situation was back then:

http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/19660 ... ance-gains


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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
When your opponents crash needlessly, is that luck, or is that your opponents being stupid ?

When you don't crash very often, and get great reliability from your engine/gearbox as a result, is that luck, or is that being good at your job and reaping the rewards ?


It’s luck.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It’s luck.


Luck? :rotfl:

Every top driver will "luck into" the odd win now and again (e.g. Verstappen in Spain last year, Hamilton in Singapore this), but I strongly disagree that a driver can "luck into" a WDC in modern F1 (maybe back in the '60s & '70s with very unreliable cars). Certainly a driver doesn't "luck into" over 60 wins and three WDCs (and standing on the brink of number four). That cannot be down to luck. :shakehead:
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:42 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

It’s luck.


Hang on, see if I get this straight:

Vettel being stupid in Singers is Hamilton's luck and has nothing to do with Vettel acting stupid?

Let's do a little analogy.......with chess, the game in which luck does not exist.

My opponent making a mistake, does that make me lucky? Or am I actually the rightful winner for NOT making the mistake?

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:05 am

scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It’s luck.


Luck? :rotfl:

Every top driver will "luck into" the odd win now and again (e.g. Verstappen in Spain last year, Hamilton in Singapore this), but I strongly disagree that a driver can "luck into" a WDC in modern F1 (maybe back in the '60s & '70s with very unreliable cars). Certainly a driver doesn't "luck into" over 60 wins and three WDCs (and standing on the brink of number four). That cannot be down to luck. :shakehead:


Hamilton lucked into his first championship thanks to Timo Glock.

notaxonrotax wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

It’s luck.


Hang on, see if I get this straight:

Vettel being stupid in Singers is Hamilton's luck and has nothing to do with Vettel acting stupid?

Let's do a little analogy.......with chess, the game in which luck does not exist.

My opponent making a mistake, does that make me lucky? Or am I actually the rightful winner for NOT making the mistake?

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Vettel acting stupidly is lucky for Hamilton. Because the thing is Vettel don't usually act stupid.

Why must luck & ability be mutually exclusive?
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:02 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It’s luck.



Why must luck & ability be mutually exclusive?


Who says they are mutually exclusive?
Vettel's mistake is Hamilton's luck, according to you.
You seem to suggest that a mistake of somebody is just something that can not be controlled by a person, I.E luck.
While in real life, the candidate making most mistakes is the rightful loser.

May I inquire, why the HAM hatred?

Interesting conversation during the driver's briefing.

Nhttp://iforsports.com/grosjean-sparks- ... -seatbelt/

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:06 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Hamilton lucked into his first championship thanks to Timo Glock.


I don't see how being on the correct tyres for the conditions is lucky. :shakehead:
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:47 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Hamilton lucked into his first championship thanks to Timo Glock.


And what do you think of Raikkonen WDC title then ?
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:51 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Vettel acting stupidly is lucky for Hamilton. Because the thing is Vettel don't usually act stupid.


Can we really say that's true anymore? He's got a history of petulant behavior and avoidable crashes. Unlike Hamilton he doesn't seem to have grown out of it, as Baku showed this year.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Hamilton lucked into his first championship thanks to Timo Glock.


It's a team sport, and the team calculated correctly that he should be on the inters. Glock's team didn't. That's not luck, that's having better judgment than your opponent.

An example of luck would be if you lost because you had to slow down to avoid an animal crossing the track or something like that. That's a situation out of anybody's control.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:20 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
May I inquire, why the HAM hatred?

The guy is overrated, nothing more, nothing less. The moment he gets an equal teammate he starts throwing temper tantrums everywhere. In fact I feel the same way about Vettel too. And now Verstappen have shown that he's shaped out of the same mold as well.

These three are ruining the sport thanks to their petulant behaviour.


scbriml wrote:
I don't see how being on the correct tyres for the conditions is lucky. :shakehead:


Glock could have stayed in front, or crashed into Hamilton while defending his position.

And I'm not the only ones thinking that Hamilton was lucky back then - even Eddie Jordan thinks so.


Aesma wrote:
And what do you think of Raikkonen WDC title then ?


He was also lucky, although to be fair to Raikkonen he did double Hamilton's retirements that year.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:12 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
May I inquire, why the HAM hatred?

The guy is overrated, nothing more, nothing less. The moment he gets an equal teammate he starts throwing temper tantrums everywhere. In fact I feel the same way about Vettel too. And now Verstappen have shown that he's shaped out of the same mold as well.

These three are ruining the sport thanks to their petulant behaviour.

.


That is the case with HAM, there are not many drivers out there that can be considered equal to him.

He beat Alonso on numerous occasions with Mclaren, a year in which Alonso proved not to be overly sympathetic by the way.
Kovalainen was a joke as a teammate.
Things were pretty equal with Button, without the tantrums you speak of.
He dominates in the Mercedes team for years now, both in qualifying and in racing.
Who can beat him according to you?

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:32 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
May I inquire, why the HAM hatred?

The guy is overrated, nothing more, nothing less. The moment he gets an equal teammate he starts throwing temper tantrums everywhere. In fact I feel the same way about Vettel too. And now Verstappen have shown that he's shaped out of the same mold as well.


Huh, overrated? While I am not a fan of Hamilton, I cant deny his talent. You are not overrated when you are about to win your 4th WDC. He has over the years consistently broken records and performed well with 61 wins. He has also outperformed all his teammates. I dont understand in what way he is overrated?
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:41 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
That is the case with HAM, there are not many drivers out there that can be considered equal to him.

He beat Alonso on numerous occasions with Mclaren, a year in which Alonso proved not to be overly sympathetic by the way.
Kovalainen was a joke as a teammate.
Things were pretty equal with Button, without the tantrums you speak of.
He dominates in the Mercedes team for years now, both in qualifying and in racing.
Who can beat him according to you?

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Put Danny Ric in the same car & let's see what happens.

B747forever wrote:
Huh, overrated? While I am not a fan of Hamilton, I cant deny his talent. You are not overrated when you are about to win your 4th WDC. He has over the years consistently broken records and performed well with 61 wins. He has also outperformed all his teammates. I dont understand in what way he is overrated?


He may be able to win races, but he's certainly no Senna. That's what I meant when he is overrated.

It's unfortunate that the F1 feed here in Malaysia comes from Sky. Brundle & co's gushing over Hamilton is certainly nauseating.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:53 pm

RIC and HAM in 1 team.
That would be interesting, I agree.

But you came up with 1 name that can maybe pose as an equal to HAM.
Pretty slim pickings, to beat HAM; as you appear to agree.

This hero worshipping of SEN becomes a bit old.
SEN was good but also made plenty of mistakes in his career. A bit of a dick on the track, too!

Meanwhile, pretty cool point of view in my opinion:

http://en.f1i.com/news/282575-wet-rules ... milton.htm

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:05 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The guy is overrated, nothing more, nothing less.


Overrated? 61 wins (and counting) and on the verge of his 4th WCD. Overrated? :rotfl:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Glock could have stayed in front, or crashed into Hamilton while defending his position.


Glock was too busy fighting to keep his car on the black stuff because he was on the wrong tyres. I still don't see how that makes Hamilton "lucky" in your eyes.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
And I'm not the only ones thinking that Hamilton was lucky back then - even Eddie Jordan thinks so.


Oh well, if Eddie Jordan says so, it must be true. :lol:

B747forever wrote:
You are not overrated when you are about to win your 4th WDC. He has over the years consistently broken records and performed well with 61 wins. He has also outperformed all his teammates.


I believe he's also the ONLY driver in F1 history to win races in every season that he's competed.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Put Danny Ric in the same car & let's see what happens.


Really? Can't see Ricciardo besting Hamilton. Not if Alonso at his peak couldn't beat him in his first season.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
He may be able to win races, but he's certainly no Senna. That's what I meant when he is overrated.


His record up to Senna's count of 161 races was almost identical (I think it took Hamilton one more race to match Senna's 41 wins). I still don't see that as being overrated. :shakehead:
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The guy is overrated, nothing more, nothing less.


Overrated? 61 wins (and counting) and on the verge of his 4th WCD. Overrated? :rotfl:



Really? Can't see Ricciardo besting Hamilton. Not if 41 wins). I still don't see that as being overrated. :shakehead:


HAM overrated? Of course. So many races he didn't win! And I remember a few races he did not start from pole. Average dude this HAM bloke, really; SCBRIML.

RIC and HAM in one team would be interesting though. RIC is not easy to beat!

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
He's clearly not as quick as Hamilton, but then few are.

He was closer at the start of the season.

TheF15Ace wrote:
According to Otmar Szafnauer how long the situation lasts is upto Perez and Ocon with a possibility of team orders being used in 2018 as well.

I think team orders should be kept. Force India is the second smallest fish in the pond (budget wise) and they can't afford to risk points in a way that other teams might.

notaxonrotax wrote:
ZKOJQ: I realize you`re rooting against HAM or even in favour of VET....and I think we both agree that what we need for next year is a great battle between these two!


I'm not rooting against HAM, I'm rooting against domination of a team who has dominated the sport for the last four years. If it was Verstappen or Ricciardo challenging a Merc driver for the WDC, I'd be feeling exactly the same way. Actually, I'd probably be even more enthusiastic for Brother Ricciardo to take the championship.

Aesma wrote:
When your opponents crash needlessly, is that luck, or is that your opponents being stupid ?

Luck. Ferrari couldn't have been any less luckier in the past few races.


scbriml wrote:
Every top driver will "luck into" the odd win now and again (e.g. Verstappen in Spain last year, Hamilton in Singapore this), but I strongly disagree that a driver can "luck into" a WDC in modern F1 (maybe back in the '60s & '70s with very unreliable cars). Certainly a driver doesn't "luck into" over 60 wins and three WDCs (and standing on the brink of number four). That cannot be down to luck. :shakehead:

You're making this about Hamilton when it has nothing to do with him and rather everything to do with Ferrari's misfortune. Noone is saying that Hamilton lucked into 60 wins.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Hamilton lucked into his first championship thanks to Timo Glock.

If you're going to make that argument, it's probably better to point out that Massa had an engine failure on the final laps of the Hungarian GP (which he was leading).

notaxonrotax wrote:
Vettel being stupid in Singers

:banghead: Oh please...

zckls04 wrote:
Can we really say that's true anymore? He's got a history of petulant behavior and avoidable crashes. Unlike Hamilton he doesn't seem to have grown out of it, as Baku showed this year.


Please stop trying to take away from Vettel's talent. Unlike Hamilton, who has had a top three car for his entire F1 career, Sebastian has proved himself in the midfield.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The moment he gets an equal teammate he starts throwing temper tantrums everywhere.

Yup, remember all the antics about swapping engineers with Rosberg last year. :rotfl:


TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Aesma wrote:
And what do you think of Raikkonen WDC title then ?


He was also lucky, although to be fair to Raikkonen he did double Hamilton's retirements that year.


Sorry, but anyone who watched F1 during Kimi's time at McLaren in the early 2000s knows that he was anything but lucky, especially when it came to reliability. Hamilton's reliability pain last year was nothing compared to Kimi's season driving the shitty, shitty* MP4-19.

*admittedly, at least it was quick for a car with awful reliability...unlike McLaren's current entry for this season...

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Put Danny Ric in the same car & let's see what happens.

:checkmark: I suspect that it would be a similar outcome to when he spent a season with Vettel as a teammate.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's unfortunate that the F1 feed here in Malaysia comes from Sky. Brundle & co's gushing over Hamilton is certainly nauseating.

Nico Rosberg was a nice change! But yes, SKY's bias for Hamilton is ridiculous.

notaxonrotax wrote:
This hero worshipping of SEN becomes a bit old.

:checkmark: Like with The Michael, people seem to have forgotten how dirty he was. That both of them have legendary status is sickening. I have much more respect for clean drivers.

scbriml wrote:
I believe he's also the ONLY driver in F1 history to win races in every season that he's competed.

:banghead: A completely pointless statistic. Like I said above, most F1 drivers don't start their career in the most competitive car on the grid and then spend the rest of their F1 career in top three cars; that's not the spirit of F1. What other drivers have managed that; spent their entire F1 career in competitive cars? The spirit of F1 is drivers like Pascal who score points on multiple occasions despite being in by far the slowest car on the grid.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:56 pm

zkojq wrote:
You're making this about Hamilton when it has nothing to do with him and rather everything to do with Ferrari's misfortune.


I was responding to TheFlyingDisk who was talking about Hamilton being lucky. :confused: Ferrari's woes don't have that much to do with misfortune IMHO. A broken spark plug is unfortunate, less so their other issues.

zkojq wrote:
What other drivers have managed that; spent their entire F1 career in competitive cars?


The 2009 McLaren was a dog and the 2012 one not much better. The 2013 Mercedes hardly set the World on fire either. Just like the best jockeys end up riding the best horses, the best drivers normally end up driving the better cars. Unless your name is Alonso and you keep jumping ship at the wrong time.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:31 pm

zkojq wrote:
Please stop trying to take away from Vettel's talent. Unlike Hamilton, who has had a top three car for his entire F1 career, Sebastian has proved himself in the midfield.


I'm not "trying to take away from Vettel's talent"- I'm just pointing out that Vettel's behavior has cost him at least 13 points this season, and an avoidable crash has taken away another 25. As a result, ascribing the fact Vettel isn't winning this year entirely to misfortune is disingenuous. Luck is a very overrated concept in F1.

zkojq wrote:
Luck. Ferrari couldn't have been any less luckier in the past few races.


Reliability is part of the game, just as it always was. Luck doesn't make reliable cars; good design and engineering does.

zkojq wrote:
Like I said above, most F1 drivers don't start their career in the most competitive car on the grid and then spend the rest of their F1 career in top three cars;


Firstly, it wasn't the most competitive car on the grid, the Ferrari was. Secondly, the cars he has raced were not competitive every year- in 2009-13 they were not race winners. Thirdly, it's not like Hamilton was plucked from nowhere and dumped in an F1 car- he was selected for that seat because he was clearly one of the outstanding talents of his generation, having dominated virtually every series he had raced in since the age of 12. You act as if his career only started in Australia 2007.

The days of the most promising young drivers being content to pootle around in a Minardi equivalent are probably gone now, and if anything that makes things harder on the drivers, not easier. You get one chance to prove yourself, without having the luxury of learning in a car which is slow anyway. And at a top team you can't even be guaranteed a seat just because you have a rich family; you have to rely on your talent.

It's a much fairer system and leads to better driving talent on the grid.

zkojq wrote:
What other drivers have managed that; spent their entire F1 career in competitive cars?


Only the ones who make the right career choices. There's a reason Alonso only has two WDCs, with little prospect for another, and it isn't bad luck.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:49 am

zkojq wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Put Danny Ric in the same car & let's see what happens.

:checkmark: I suspect that it would be a similar outcome to when he spent a season with Vettel as a teammate.



If that is the case, RIC must be the absolute number 1 driver in F1.
Well hang on, he has been out-qualified big style by VER this year.
How does that work?
And before you start about the deficit of points of VER, he has received personal apologies from the highest levels of Renault earlier this year.
He`s had like 4 DNF´s to no fault of his own. (He hit RIC though, that was a huge mistake).

RIC & HAM in one team would be interesting.
But RIC would not walk over HAM like he did with VET, I just can`t see that happening.
Let`s hope that driver line-up will happen......for all of our sake!


zkojq wrote:
Luck. Ferrari couldn't have been any less luckier in the past few races.




notaxonrotax wrote:
Vettel being stupid in Singers

:banghead: Oh please...



Yeah, you still seem to deny that VET had any blame in Singers. A LOT of experts in the industry has dealt some or most of the blame to VET, though.
People without red clothes on, that is.
I am not claiming that it was 100% VET his fault, but here´s the thing: he WAS the only WC contender in the crash and he had the car to win that race, regardless of his position after turn 1. He had SO much space on the right of the track, the risk he took upon himself is simply ridiculous. It may well turn out to be the WC losing move of 2017. Why take the risk?

Ferrari has quality issues. Bad luck, yes. But heads are rolling in Italy and that is not only due to bad luck.
Reliability is part of the game.
Shame for the drivers though, they have very little to do with the reliability at the start of a race.


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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:08 pm

zckls04 wrote:
I'm not "trying to take away from Vettel's talent"- I'm just pointing out that Vettel's behavior has cost him at least 13 points this season, and an avoidable crash has taken away another 25. As a result, ascribing the fact Vettel isn't winning this year entirely to misfortune is disingenuous. Luck is a very overrated concept in F1.

Vettel couldn't see what a great start Kimi got.


zckls04 wrote:
The days of the most promising young drivers being content to pootle around in a Minardi equivalent are probably gone now

They are? Last time I checked....
- Danny Ric & Max spent time at Toro Rosso. So did Sainz.
- Ocon spent time in a Manor, as did Wehrlein.
- Charles Leclerc will be spending time at Sauber next year.

Spending time near the back, earning yourself a faster seat will always be part of F1. I'm not sure what trend to the contrary you are seeing?

zckls04 wrote:
You get one chance to prove yourself

Ah yes, unlike the days of unlimited testing.

zckls04 wrote:
And at a top team you can't even be guaranteed a seat just because you have a rich family; you have to rely on your talent.

Lance :dollarsign:troll says hi.

zckls04 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
What other drivers have managed that; spent their entire F1 career in competitive cars?
Only the ones who make the right career choices. There's a reason Alonso only has two WDCs, with little prospect for another, and it isn't bad luck.


Sorry, but McLaren is the only top team (and they're not exactly a top one at the moment) who ever debuts rookie drivers. Mercedes don't (as seen by their juniors PW and EO both spending time at Manor), Ferrari certainly don't (using Sauber next year) and Red Bull gives their juniors experience at TR. I honestly have no idea why you're trying to pretend that it's normal for rookie drivers to debut in one of the fastest cars on the grid and thus have the opportunity to spent their whole career at the front.

Alonso started out at Minardi.

notaxonrotax wrote:
Well hang on, he has been out-qualified big style by VER this year.
How does that work?


Simple; Max is the better qualifier, Danny is the better racer.

notaxonrotax wrote:
(He hit RIC though, that was a huge mistake).

How many times has Danny taken out Max? Oh right, he doesn't.

notaxonrotax wrote:
Yeah, you still seem to deny that VET had any blame in Singers. A LOT of experts in the industry has dealt some or most of the blame to VET, though.
People without red clothes on, that is.


The stewards deemed it to be a racing incident.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:54 pm

zkojq wrote:


notaxonrotax wrote:
Well hang on, he has been out-qualified big style by VER this year.
How does that work?


Simple; Max is the better qualifier, Danny is the better racer.

notaxonrotax wrote:
(He hit RIC though, that was a huge mistake).

How many times has Danny taken out Max? Oh right, he doesn't.

notaxonrotax wrote:
Yeah, you still seem to deny that VET had any blame in Singers. A LOT of experts in the industry has dealt some or most of the blame to VET, though.
People without red clothes on, that is.


The stewards deemed it to be a racing incident.


Exactly: a racing accident.
By definition an accident where the blame is shared over different parties.
Pretty silly, if you have the fastest car and you're fighting for the championship. A risk VET should not have taken and I bet he kicks himself for that.

RIC the better racer than VER? Perhaps. Or RIC having a for more reliable car this year.
Many experts are still super excited about VER's performance....yet you seem to see that differently.

VER hit RIC once, they came close a few times due to the fact that both of them are being aggressive.
You talk like VER hits RIC on a continuous basis.
What you use is called "anecdotal evidence" and does not reflect the truth.
If VER hits RIC again this season, I'd agree with you.
Would you also admit it if it happens the other way around?

Also, you omitted the fact that VER owed up to RIC and apologized like a man.

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:50 pm

zkojq wrote:
Vettel couldn't see what a great start Kimi got.


If he was as clueless as you think he was, why did he move so far off the racing line to the inside of turn 1? Obviously he was blocking somebody, ergo he must have know a collision was a possibility. He's been in enough races to know that some drivers start better than others. The reality is that it was an unnecessary risk. He didn't need to move so far across the track, and as a result he has to bear some responsibility.

Spending time near the back, earning yourself a faster seat will always be part of F1. I'm not sure what trend to the contrary you are seeing?


I'm talking about the future rather than the present. It seems to me there's a trend for the path from GP2 to a seat in a top team to be getting shorter as the drivers get younger. Drivers enroll in young driver programs in their teens and work their way up; by the time they reach 17 or 18 the teams are going to have a pretty good idea of their talents. In the bad old days there were no driver development programs so you had no choice but to pay for a seat at a minnow in the hope of catching somebody's eye.

Another consideration is that teams never actually know whether or not they are going to be race winners in a given season. McLaren were a (very) distant third in 2006 behind Renault and Ferrari. It was not at all a given that they were going to be race winners in 2007, even with Coughlan and Stepney's help.

But in the end, all this is just a smokescreen. The bottom line is that Hamilton was ready to win races. In fact as it turned out he was a bit too ready.

Ah yes, unlike the days of unlimited testing.


Indeed. And one would think that unlimited testing would have guaranteed better driver lineups. But clearly that's not the case.

Lance :dollarsign:troll says hi.


Hate to break it to you granddad, but Williams aren't a top team :) . They've had 2 race wins in the last 14 years. The privateers are always going to need his ilk to pay the bills. The difference is that's no longer the only route to F1.

The stewards deemed it to be a racing incident.


A racing incident which could have been avoided, and Vettel would have walked away with a hatful of points. Sometimes in F1 racing you need to make decisions which favor the long game. Vettel wasn't "unlucky" in Singapore; he made a poor decision and got punished for it.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:45 am

zckls04 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Vettel couldn't see what a great start Kimi got.


If he was as clueless as you think he was, why did he move so far off the racing line to the inside of turn 1? Obviously he was blocking somebody, ergo he must have know a collision was a possibility. He's been in enough races to know that some drivers start better than others. The reality is that it was an unnecessary risk. He didn't need to move so far across the track, and as a result he has to bear some responsibiliy

The stewards deemed it to be a racing incident.


A racing incident which could have been avoided, and Vettel would have walked away with a hatful of points. Sometimes in F1 racing you need to make decisions which favor the long game. Vettel wasn't "unlucky" in Singapore; he made a poor decision and got punished for it.



Well said ZCKLS04.
This is my version of the "thumb up" you know, of that other famous website.

You are of course, spot on.

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:59 pm

zkojq wrote:

notaxonrotax wrote:
This hero worshipping of SEN becomes a bit old.

:checkmark: Like with The Michael, people seem to have forgotten how dirty he was. That both of them have legendary status is sickening. I have much more respect for clean drivers.



I forgot to give you credit for this one!
Absolutely. Between Senna and Prost, there is no doubt who the gentleman was.

I have seen a recent interview with "le profeseur"....equipped with a goatee....and he was so open about Senna. The good and the bad.

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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:49 pm

zkojq wrote:
that's not the spirit of F1.


These are the most ridiculous words in this thread. In any F1 thread, come to think of it.

Go to church if you think "spirit" has any value, because thats the only place for such thinking.

Hamilton was good enough in lower series that a team promoted him directly to a top tier front-of-the-grid F1 seat - there is no "spirit" requiring him to slum it in a second tier seat for several seasons, thats for drivers who need to grow their talent to an F1 level.

zkojq wrote:
Luck. Ferrari couldn't have been any less luckier in the past few races.


Luck also put Vettel further ahead in the championship at Baku when he should have lost ground to Hamilton, it was only Hamiltons headrest failure which saved Ferrari - can't have it both ways... Hamilton would have taken the championship lead, instead Vettel extended his lead.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:59 am

moo wrote:
zckls04 wrote:
Vettel couldn't see what a great start Kimi got.


If he was as clueless as you think he was, why did he move so far off the racing line to the inside of turn 1? Obviously he was blocking somebody, ergo he must have know a collision was a possibility. He's been in enough races to know that some drivers start better than others. The reality is that it was an unnecessary risk. He didn't need to move so far across the track, and as a result he has to bear some responsibility.


I've seen many drivers squeezing the next car to get a better position for the first corner. Schumacher did it, even Hamilton did it. In fact Vettel didn't even touch Verstappen - his car was already clear of the Red Bull & if Verstappen had not moved further to the left he would also have missed Raikkonen. Both Ferraris would have made the first corner.

moo wrote:
zkojq wrote:
that's not the spirit of F1.


These are the most ridiculous words in this thread. In any F1 thread, come to think of it.

Go to church if you think "spirit" has any value, because thats the only place for such thinking.

Hamilton was good enough in lower series that a team promoted him directly to a top tier front-of-the-grid F1 seat - there is no "spirit" requiring him to slum it in a second tier seat for several seasons, thats for drivers who need to grow their talent to an F1 level.


Rosberg won the GP2 championship the year before Hamilton but had to slum it with Williams for four years before joining Mercedes and enduring the long development period before it became what it is today. Is he not good enough that he had to grow their talent to F1 level? Same goes for Vettel - sure he made his debut with BMW Sauber & impressed everyone with his speed, but once BMW left he had to slum it with Toro Rosso for two seasons. Is he not as talented that he is required to grow his talent by driving for a midfield team?

There's no doubt that Hamilton's talented, but to say he's far ahead of the others just because he won more races or got more poles doesn't do justice to the other drivers, especially since he had the best machine that allowed him to notch all those wins while the others were only able to scrabble for the scraps. That was what zkojq meant when it's not the spirit of F1.
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Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:02 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
moo wrote:
zckls04 wrote:
Vettel couldn't see what a great start Kimi got.


If he was as clueless as you think he was, why did he move so far off the racing line to the inside of turn 1? Obviously he was blocking somebody, ergo he must have know a collision was a possibility. He's been in enough races to know that some drivers start better than others. The reality is that it was an unnecessary risk. He didn't need to move so far across the track, and as a result he has to bear some responsibility.


I've seen many drivers squeezing the next car to get a better position for the first corner. Schumacher did it, even Hamilton did it. In fact Vettel didn't even touch Verstappen - his car was already clear of the Red Bull & if Verstappen had not moved further to the left he would also have missed Raikkonen. Both Ferraris would have made the first corner.


Oh, this bull again.

Vettel get what he deserved - no points. Of his own making. Nuff said really.

If Vettel hadn't moved over, all three cars would have made the corner.

Moving on...


TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Rosberg won the GP2 championship the year before Hamilton but had to slum it with Williams for four years before joining Mercedes and enduring the long development period before it became what it is today. Is he not good enough that he had to grow their talent to F1 level?

Same goes for Vettel - sure he made his debut with BMW Sauber & impressed everyone with his speed, but once BMW left he had to slum it with Toro Rosso for two seasons. Is he not as talented that he is required to grow his talent by driving for a midfield team?


If both were as talented as Hamilton, why didn't they get snapped up by a front row team straight from a lower championship?

Hamilton delivered 4 wins, 12 podiums and 2nd place in the Drivers Championship in his maiden F1 year - if Rosberg and Vettel were capable of that, any front row team would have jumped on them.

There's no doubt that Hamilton's talented, but to say he's far ahead of the others just because he won more races or got more poles doesn't do justice to the other drivers, especially since he had the best machine that allowed him to notch all those wins while the others were only able to scrabble for the scraps. That was what zkojq meant when it's not the spirit of F1.


Your point is? F1 isn't a spec sport - the cars aren't bought off the rack and intended to be identical.

If a driver cannot attract a team willing to put a race winning car at their finger tips, then that driver isn't deserving of having a race winning car at their fingertips. There is a *reason* the top teams *pay* their drivers rather than employ drivers that bring sponsorship.

If you want to bitch and moan about how unfair it is that some drivers have to slum it in second rate teams, then go watch a spec sport - and take your nonsense about "spirit" with you, because thats where it belongs.

This is F1. You seem to want something else.
 
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zckls04
Posts: 2731
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: F1 2017: Japan, USA, Mexico, Brazil & Abu Dhabi

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:32 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I've seen many drivers squeezing the next car to get a better position for the first corner. Schumacher did it, even Hamilton did it.


Lots of drivers squeeze the next car, and some get lucky and some don't. It's a risky move. Contrast with Hamilton who knew it wasn't worth the risk in Malaysia against Verstappen.

You still are ignoring the crux of this- Vettel did not need to act so aggressively at the start. Ferrari had excellent long run pace in Singapore and were expected to win. Whether or not you think that is a "legitimate" move, or whether the stewards thought it a racing incident is utterly irrelevant. What matters is that if he had driven more conservatively there's a good chance he could have walked away with 25 points, or at the very least 18. Instead he walked away with nothing.

It was in Vettel's hands, he took a risk and perhaps threw away a championship because of it. Whether the risk was worth it is debatable, but what's not debatable is that it was in Vettel's hands. It was not just "bad luck".

zkojq wrote:
Rosberg won the GP2 championship the year before Hamilton but had to slum it with Williams for four years before joining Mercedes and enduring the long development period before it became what it is today. Is he not good enough that he had to grow their talent to F1 level?


That's up to the teams to decide, and evidently none of the top teams believed he was good enough to justify poaching from Williams. Certainly his junior racing record was not as good as Hamilton's.

Same goes for Vettel - sure he made his debut with BMW Sauber & impressed everyone with his speed, but once BMW left he had to slum it with Toro Rosso for two seasons. Is he not as talented that he is required to grow his talent by driving for a midfield team?


Perhaps Red Bull believed that he needed further experience. And perhaps they were wrong and he would have won races in 2008 for Red Bull. But we have the benefit of hindsight, knowing that Vettel is now a four-time WDC. At the time though, was Vettel's record in the junior formulae so stellar that he was a sure bet? I'd argue not. But in any case, short of asking the team bosses themselves you're unlikely to get a definitive answer. My personal opinion is that Red Bull probably would have preferred him in the car in 2008, but felt obligated to give Coulthard one final year after he had helped build the team.

The bottom line is that the only people who ever mention this peculiar idea that drivers are obligated to spend time with a small team before they start winning races are people who just happen to dislike Hamilton. Everybody else just accepts that drivers mature at different rates, and that team owners should take the best drivers they can.

There's no doubt that Hamilton's talented, but to say he's far ahead of the others just because he won more races or got more poles doesn't do justice to the other drivers,


Part of being a great F1 driver is getting yourself into the right car at the right time. Both Vettel and Hamilton have done that better than any other current driver on the grid. They are also at the peak of their driving ability and experience, so yes, I'd argue both are significantly ahead of every other driver on the grid at the moment, and both belong in the pantheon of F1 greats. There are plenty of other drivers with great potential, but realistically nobody on the grid is at the same level at this point in time.

And it's worth noting that practically all WDCs have the best car in the year they become champions. If that annoys you then you should take up watching a spec series.
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