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Dutchy
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:56 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The LV mass terror shooter had been buying a number of non-hunting guns over the last year or so. As he bought them 1 at a time, the USA's ATF didn't know he was amassing an arsenal as current rules only mean attention to the ATF if a person buys 3 guns at once from a licensed dealer. To me there should be change in law/regulations if some individual buys 3 or more guns in a set period of time like 3 months, that could cause a hold on any further sales from that person for a period of months. Not only could this possibly curb the creation of arsenals by individuals or small groups but also 'straw buying' where guns are legally purchased for private and unregulated resale - usually to criminals. Of course the NRA and other 2nd Amendment absolutists won't even allow such a small but possibly effective change.



Why? What does buying 3 guns in 3 months signify? I've bought 3 in 3 weeks, probably time to add on to safe space, since my 70 gun safe is mostly full. Should I be a criminal, simply for owning guns?


70 gun safe? For a civilian? Madness.......
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The LV mass terror shooter had been buying a number of non-hunting guns over the last year or so. As he bought them 1 at a time, the USA's ATF didn't know he was amassing an arsenal as current rules only mean attention to the ATF if a person buys 3 guns at once from a licensed dealer. To me there should be change in law/regulations if some individual buys 3 or more guns in a set period of time like 3 months, that could cause a hold on any further sales from that person for a period of months. Not only could this possibly curb the creation of arsenals by individuals or small groups but also 'straw buying' where guns are legally purchased for private and unregulated resale - usually to criminals. Of course the NRA and other 2nd Amendment absolutists won't even allow such a small but possibly effective change.



Why? What does buying 3 guns in 3 months signify? I've bought 3 in 3 weeks, probably time to add on to safe space, since my 70 gun safe is mostly full. Should I be a criminal, simply for owning guns?


70 gun safe? For a civilian? Madness.......


I have friends who have an FFL. They have a walk in safe of similar size. In addition to inventory for customers, the have lots of antique firearms including muzzle loaders plus modern weapons that belong to them individually.
 
Misterbrown
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:04 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have friends who have an FFL. They have a walk in safe of similar size. In addition to inventory for customers, the have lots of antique firearms including muzzle loaders plus modern weapons that belong to them individually.

That's mixing apples and oranges. Your friends are in the business, so the inventory makes sense. DiamondFlyer makes no such claim.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:18 am

Dutchy wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The LV mass terror shooter had been buying a number of non-hunting guns over the last year or so. As he bought them 1 at a time, the USA's ATF didn't know he was amassing an arsenal as current rules only mean attention to the ATF if a person buys 3 guns at once from a licensed dealer. To me there should be change in law/regulations if some individual buys 3 or more guns in a set period of time like 3 months, that could cause a hold on any further sales from that person for a period of months. Not only could this possibly curb the creation of arsenals by individuals or small groups but also 'straw buying' where guns are legally purchased for private and unregulated resale - usually to criminals. Of course the NRA and other 2nd Amendment absolutists won't even allow such a small but possibly effective change.



Why? What does buying 3 guns in 3 months signify? I've bought 3 in 3 weeks, probably time to add on to safe space, since my 70 gun safe is mostly full. Should I be a criminal, simply for owning guns?


70 gun safe? For a civilian? Madness.......

Surely you don't mean to imply that DiamondFlyer is mad?

Whether one collects or trades jewels, wine bottles, postage stamps, autographed baseballs, or armaments, why is madness implied?
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:19 am

Misterbrown wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have friends who have an FFL. They have a walk in safe of similar size. In addition to inventory for customers, the have lots of antique firearms including muzzle loaders plus modern weapons that belong to them individually.

That's mixing apples and oranges. Your friends are in the business, so the inventory makes sense. DiamondFlyer makes no such claim.


They order guns for customers and only have customers' guns from the time they're delivered to their office till customers pick them up. The great majority of guns in their safe are their personal firearms.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:26 am

Misterbrown wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have friends who have an FFL. They have a walk in safe of similar size. In addition to inventory for customers, the have lots of antique firearms including muzzle loaders plus modern weapons that belong to them individually.

That's mixing apples and oranges. Your friends are in the business, so the inventory makes sense. DiamondFlyer makes no such claim.


I'm not stupid, there's no money in running a gun dealer. The margins on firearms are too thin and nobody buys accessories and ammo in stores these days. So no, its personal use, not even a walk in safe. Ideally, if I move into a larger house, I'll build an entire walk-in room that's a safe room.
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jetero
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:22 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Misterbrown wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have friends who have an FFL. They have a walk in safe of similar size. In addition to inventory for customers, the have lots of antique firearms including muzzle loaders plus modern weapons that belong to them individually.

That's mixing apples and oranges. Your friends are in the business, so the inventory makes sense. DiamondFlyer makes no such claim.


I'm not stupid, there's no money in running a gun dealer. The margins on firearms are too thin and nobody buys accessories and ammo in stores these days. So no, its personal use, not even a walk in safe. Ideally, if I move into a larger house, I'll build an entire walk-in room that's a safe room.


Of course you would. What’s your address? Probably something like 10 Celebration Pines Lane. I’m sure a real violent crime hotspot.

If there’s any justice you won’t earn enough money to move to a larger house solely due to your abject ignorance, antisocial behavior, and persecution syndrome. If you do, well, then the U.S. economy is screwed. (Unless you work in the MRE and bunker industry.)

Why does the whole country have to be subjected to your neuroses, Mr “From My Cold, Dead Hands”? I mean, you have to be a real winner to put that in your signature line on an aviation forum.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:33 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Misterbrown wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have friends who have an FFL. They have a walk in safe of similar size. In addition to inventory for customers, the have lots of antique firearms including muzzle loaders plus modern weapons that belong to them individually.

That's mixing apples and oranges. Your friends are in the business, so the inventory makes sense. DiamondFlyer makes no such claim.


I'm not stupid, there's no money in running a gun dealer. The margins on firearms are too thin and nobody buys accessories and ammo in stores these days. So no, its personal use, not even a walk in safe. Ideally, if I move into a larger house, I'll build an entire walk-in room that's a safe room.


Absolutely correct. My friends don't have inventories of firearms to sell. Customers request items to order, and they order the merchandise that is then shipped to them. Ever since 1968, it has been illegal to sell guns by mail order. Guns for retail sale must be shipped to an FFL holder who keeps the records and makes the sale to the customer. Their safe contains mostly their personal firearms, a few firearms that have not yet been picked up by the purchaser and items ordered for their other business venture waiting to be delivered. Must of the guns in their safe are their personal firearms.
 
seb146
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:23 am

As long as the NRA owns Congress, we can not prevent mass shootings.

As someone on social media pointed out: if children being gunned down didn't move Congress to do anything, nothing will.

First, we need to get money out of elections. Completely. No lobbyists, no "superPACs" and no "endorsed by..." If people want laws to be passed and have the government they deserve, they need to be elected on their own merits. Not because they gave a reach around to big oil, big pharma, and big guns. No pun intended.
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Dutchy
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:34 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Surely you don't mean to imply that DiamondFlyer is mad?


As always, I try to distinguish the person, DiamondFlyer in this case, from the situation, so I call the situation madness, not the person. Unless states expressively otherwise, I never comment about the person, always about the situation.
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seahawk
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:01 am

seb146 wrote:
As long as the NRA owns Congress, we can not prevent mass shootings.

As someone on social media pointed out: if children being gunned down didn't move Congress to do anything, nothing will.

First, we need to get money out of elections. Completely. No lobbyists, no "superPACs" and no "endorsed by..." If people want laws to be passed and have the government they deserve, they need to be elected on their own merits. Not because they gave a reach around to big oil, big pharma, and big guns. No pun intended.


No country ever achieved this. The problem in the US is that the judiciary is also political controlled. Judges in the supreme court are expected to and do vote too often in accordance with a political position and not purely based on previous historical decisions and interpretations of the constitution. Columbia vs. Heller was a role model for this.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:07 am

Well, there is an obvious solution to this challenge - go after the producers and retailers of guns and ammunition. Now bear with me for a second, it's not what you think it is.

This side of the water, several industries (including travel) are bound by law to have a trustfund to cover for industrial failures. One recent example is Monarch, where the UK ATOL scheme covered much of the repatriation cost and reimbursement for cancelled holidays. That scheme is paid for by the travel industry, as a percentage of their turnover.

Why not do the same with manufacturers and sellers of guns and ammunition? You want to make guns and ammo, or you want a gunshop? Fair enough, you'll have to pay X percent of your turnover into a fund, which will be used to compensate victims and families everytime someone gets unlawfully shot. Given the high number of casualties, and the habit of US courts to award exorbiant compensations, the percentage would easily run into the double digits. Which would, naturally, result in some rich people finding better ways of making money, abandoning the gun industry. And then, all by itself, guns will be much more expensive and much harder to come by.

And you can do all this without violating the 2nd amendment - it's just that the barrier to entry has been set much, much higher.

Now it wouldn't have prevented the Las Vegas killings, as the perpetrator was rich. But that's exceedingly rare; the mother of Adam Lanza would probably not have been able to afford a gun, and thus 20 kids in Sandy Hook might still have been alive today.

Whilst you're at it, you could add an astronomical sales tax on anything but hunting rifles and handguns below a certain size, say anything above a .22. Make the tax in the order of a couple thousand %, and gun sales would automatically dwindle. Again, this can be done without infringing on the 2nd amendment.

All the talk about background checks and the psychologial well being is all good and well, but at the end of the day it's empty rhetoric which will accomplish the square root of f. all.
Last edited by B777LRF on Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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B777LRF
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:08 am

Double post
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ltbewr
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:03 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:


Why? What does buying 3 guns in 3 months signify? I've bought 3 in 3 weeks, probably time to add on to safe space, since my 70 gun safe is mostly full. Should I be a criminal, simply for owning guns?


70 gun safe? For a civilian? Madness.......

Surely you don't mean to imply that DiamondFlyer is mad?

Whether one collects or trades jewels, wine bottles, postage stamps, autographed baseballs, or armaments, why is madness implied?


I do think that someone who buys 33 guns and extensive amounts of ammo in a year, especially guns are not primarily designed for animal hunting, has some potential issues that need to be of concern. Yes, some are 'collectors' and I understand that, but you also have radical 'militia', anti-government types who acquire many guns and become a threat, like those involved in the Nevada confrontation at a US park site last year. I also noted the 'straw buyer' issue mainly for handguns that leads to many of such purchases ending up in the hands of criminals who commit most of the mass shootings and deaths by street gangs in the 100's terrorizing places like Chicago. My desire is to maybe reduce the chance of having so many guns by someone with mental health issues or with criminals that do too many murders and put too many in harms way.
I also agree we need to ban the further production of 'bump' devices that make semi-automatic guns into near automatic ones. There is no reason or need for them and can, as we seen in LV, add to the carnage from their use.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:19 pm

You should have no problems to separate the collector in this case. He should be able to define a field of interest and the collection would or should mirror this. This could be by time period of type of weapon.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:28 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Well, there is an obvious solution to this challenge - go after the producers and retailers of guns and ammunition. Now bear with me for a second, it's not what you think it is.

Whilst you're at it, you could add an astronomical sales tax on anything but hunting rifles and handguns below a certain size, say anything above a .22. Make the tax in the order of a couple thousand %, and gun sales would automatically dwindle. Again, this can be done without infringing on the 2nd amendment.

All the talk about background checks and the psychologial well being is all good and well, but at the end of the day it's empty rhetoric which will accomplish the square root of f. all.


I've just edited your quote to focus on the points I wish to address. I'm not trying to twist your words - hope you don't mind.

Implementing the strategies you have outlined would instantly validate those voices who have been arguing that the government will do absolutely everything and anything, no matter how sneaky, to take away their guns. And to be honest, I'd be inclined to sympathize with their position because adding astronomically high taxes to a product in the hope of preventing people from buying that product is a pretty sly thing to do.

Also, it could be unconstitutional, because any such tax would be designed with the implicit, or perhaps even explicit, intention of preventing individuals from purchasing a firearm, which in turn could be construed as an attempt to infringe upon the Second Amendment. It's kind of like imposing a literary test on potential voters - sure, you're not actually saying people can't vote, but everyone knows that that's your intention. The situation here would be similar; sure, you're not actually taking away people's guns or saying they can't buy them, but it is clear to see that that is the intention. So I don't think it would get off the ground.
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tommy1808
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:57 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Also, it could be unconstitutional, because any such tax would be designed with the implicit, or perhaps even explicit, intention of preventing individuals from purchasing a firearm, which in turn could be construed as an attempt to infringe upon the Second Amendment.


Well, unless gun and ammunition purchases are tax deductible and/or excluded from sales tax, having to pay a tax that makes guns more expensive for you is already accepted.

best regards
Thomas
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KLDC10
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:24 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Also, it could be unconstitutional, because any such tax would be designed with the implicit, or perhaps even explicit, intention of preventing individuals from purchasing a firearm, which in turn could be construed as an attempt to infringe upon the Second Amendment.


Well, unless gun and ammunition purchases are tax deductible and/or excluded from sales tax, having to pay a tax that makes guns more expensive for you is already accepted.

best regards
Thomas


The tax the poster suggested would be, in his words "in the thousands of %". Sales tax as applied to any product is generally well-accepted, but the tax he described would be punitive.
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tommy1808
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:32 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
but the tax he described would be punitive.


Nah, it would just fund the "Office of Militia regulations and militia related adjustment of damages", no punitive character, just clearly implementing the guidelines from the constitution.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:37 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Also, it could be unconstitutional, because any such tax would be designed with the implicit, or perhaps even explicit, intention of preventing individuals from purchasing a firearm, which in turn could be construed as an attempt to infringe upon the Second Amendment.


There are already numerous infringements and barriers applied to the right. The SC has ruled that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit the regulation of firearms.
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KLDC10
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
but the tax he described would be punitive.


Nah, it would just fund the "Office of Militia regulations and militia related adjustment of damages", no punitive character, just clearly implementing the guidelines from the constitution.

best regards
Thomas


A new government agency? That would come up against some stiff opposition.

scbriml wrote:
There are already numerous infringements and barriers applied to the right. The SC has ruled that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit the regulation of firearms.


Regulation is different from using punitive taxation (as was suggested in the post I quoted) to prevent the widespread ownership of firearms. Similarly, you can regulate voting with Voter ID, but when the implied purpose becomes to prevent people from exercising their right to vote, then a line has been crossed. Because District of Columbia v. Heller affirmed a right to own a firearm independent of connections to any militia, then it could be reasonably argued in court that attaching punitive taxes to the sales of firearms is an attempt to prevent citizens from exercising a right. That was what was proposed in the post I quoted.
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tommy1808
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:49 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
A new government agency? That would come up against some stiff opposition.


Well, that is for sure, but it would be hard to argue it would be unconstitutional, as long that tax only covers the cost from having and regulating that militia.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:00 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
A new government agency? That would come up against some stiff opposition.


Well, that is for sure, but it would be hard to argue it would be unconstitutional, as long that tax only covers the cost from having and regulating that militia.

best regards
Thomas


I don't know if it could be ruled unconstitutional based on the precedent set by District of Columbia v. Heller. I'd have to read the entire holding of that case very carefully before making a statement on that.

However, Constitutionality aside; the idea of a government agency to regulate gun ownership is abhorrent to a huge chunk of the US population. It would be so vigorously opposed that I imagine very few politicians would try to push for something like that. As was discussed earlier in the thread, the idea of a gun registry is incompatible with the views of many Americans and didn't work so well in Canada. A government agency is just a non-starter I would think.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
but the tax he described would be punitive.


Nah, it would just fund the "Office of Militia regulations and militia related adjustment of damages", no punitive character, just clearly implementing the guidelines from the constitution.

best regards
Thomas


So then you're ok with a poll tax right? We can charge you thousands to exercise your right to vote.
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seb146
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:15 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Well, there is an obvious solution to this challenge - go after the producers and retailers of guns and ammunition. Now bear with me for a second, it's not what you think it is.

This side of the water, several industries (including travel) are bound by law to have a trustfund to cover for industrial failures. One recent example is Monarch, where the UK ATOL scheme covered much of the repatriation cost and reimbursement for cancelled holidays. That scheme is paid for by the travel industry, as a percentage of their turnover.

Why not do the same with manufacturers and sellers of guns and ammunition?


Because, as any gun nut will tell you:

guns don't kill people, people kill people.
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Tugger
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:18 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
So then you're ok with a poll tax right? We can charge you thousands to exercise your right to vote.

How would you pay out damages for bad voting? I can see an insurance for injury and death being very straightforward with firearms but voting is a little more difficult. But if you think it is a good idea and can support it you can see if it will succeed.

Of course you are already paying for guns and taxes already pay for voting.
Tugg
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seb146
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:20 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Misterbrown wrote:
That's mixing apples and oranges. Your friends are in the business, so the inventory makes sense. DiamondFlyer makes no such claim.


I'm not stupid, there's no money in running a gun dealer. The margins on firearms are too thin and nobody buys accessories and ammo in stores these days. So no, its personal use, not even a walk in safe. Ideally, if I move into a larger house, I'll build an entire walk-in room that's a safe room.


Absolutely correct. My friends don't have inventories of firearms to sell. Customers request items to order, and they order the merchandise that is then shipped to them. Ever since 1968, it has been illegal to sell guns by mail order. Guns for retail sale must be shipped to an FFL holder who keeps the records and makes the sale to the customer. Their safe contains mostly their personal firearms, a few firearms that have not yet been picked up by the purchaser and items ordered for their other business venture waiting to be delivered. Must of the guns in their safe are their personal firearms.


What about gun shows and Craigslist and Ebay and Soldier Of Fortune magazine?
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:37 pm

seb146 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

I'm not stupid, there's no money in running a gun dealer. The margins on firearms are too thin and nobody buys accessories and ammo in stores these days. So no, its personal use, not even a walk in safe. Ideally, if I move into a larger house, I'll build an entire walk-in room that's a safe room.


Absolutely correct. My friends don't have inventories of firearms to sell. Customers request items to order, and they order the merchandise that is then shipped to them. Ever since 1968, it has been illegal to sell guns by mail order. Guns for retail sale must be shipped to an FFL holder who keeps the records and makes the sale to the customer. Their safe contains mostly their personal firearms, a few firearms that have not yet been picked up by the purchaser and items ordered for their other business venture waiting to be delivered. Must of the guns in their safe are their personal firearms.


What about gun shows and Craigslist and Ebay and Soldier Of Fortune magazine?


Retailers at gunshows are required to sell just like they do in their storefront. Craigslist and Ebay don't sell guns... No idea if Soldier of Fortune sells guns or not, but if they do, it, like every other commercial purchase, must go through an FFL.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Retailers at gunshows are required to sell just like they do in their storefront. Craigslist and Ebay don't sell guns... No idea if Soldier of Fortune sells guns or not, but if they do, it, like every other commercial purchase, must go through an FFL.

What about firearm modifications? Kits etc.?

Tugg


You mean parts? Why would parts be regulated in any way?
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Tugger
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:42 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Retailers at gunshows are required to sell just like they do in their storefront. Craigslist and Ebay don't sell guns... No idea if Soldier of Fortune sells guns or not, but if they do, it, like every other commercial purchase, must go through an FFL.

What about firearm modifications? Kits etc.?

Tugg
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:48 pm

Tugger wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Retailers at gunshows are required to sell just like they do in their storefront. Craigslist and Ebay don't sell guns... No idea if Soldier of Fortune sells guns or not, but if they do, it, like every other commercial purchase, must go through an FFL.

What about firearm modifications? Kits etc.?

Tugg

Like parts? No, there's no regulation on parts, why would there be?
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scbriml
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:11 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Like parts? No, there's no regulation on parts, why would there be?


No, I think he means things like the Slide Fire or other 'bump stocks', that even the NRA are now saying should be regulated*.


*Personally, I think this is actually a smart ruse by the NRA. It seems to be working, as Slide Fire have reported they have totally sold out following the Las Vegas massacre.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:17 pm

scbriml wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Like parts? No, there's no regulation on parts, why would there be?


No, I think he means things like the Slide Fire or other 'bump stocks', that even the NRA are now saying should be regulated*.


*Personally, I think this is actually a smart ruse by the NRA. It seems to be working, as Slide Fire have reported they have totally sold out following the Las Vegas massacre.


Stocks are parts. The only regulated part of a gun, is the receiver, the portion with a serial number. The rest, can be shipped to your house.
From my cold, dead hands
 
WIederling
Posts: 4022
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
guns don't kill people, people kill people.


But it is a lot more difficult without guns.
Taking guns away is much more humane than putting down gun owners.

( you have to break the chain of causality only at one place ( ok two to be save ))
Murphy is an optimist
 
seb146
Posts: 15353
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:09 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
scbriml wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Like parts? No, there's no regulation on parts, why would there be?


No, I think he means things like the Slide Fire or other 'bump stocks', that even the NRA are now saying should be regulated*.


*Personally, I think this is actually a smart ruse by the NRA. It seems to be working, as Slide Fire have reported they have totally sold out following the Las Vegas massacre.


Stocks are parts. The only regulated part of a gun, is the receiver, the portion with a serial number. The rest, can be shipped to your house.


So there is only one regulated part of a gun. The sheer volume of ammunition is not regulated and the modifications are not regulated. That seems like a lot to not be regulated.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
Posts: 15353
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:18 pm

The right loves to scream about wording of the Second Amendment, but let's take that a step further:

There is nothing at all in the Bill Of Rights about porn being shown on television. So, why is it regulated? Same thing. Words matter. "Well Regulated Militia" is specifically in the Bill Of Rights. Porn is not.

And, again, the Second Amendment was written at a time when able bodied men had to be called to active duty at a moment's notice to fight the British. There was no regular Army or National Guard or even police force. It was trained citizens so we could resist the British. There was no other choice.

The Supreme Court has expanded the definition of "Freedom Of Speech" to include pornography and television because times change. But, the right seems to be stuck in a time warp when it comes to guns. Why?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
Misterbrown
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:04 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
And, again, the Second Amendment was written at a time when able bodied men had to be called to active duty at a moment's notice to fight the British.

You spelled kill Indians wrong,
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3388
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
The right loves to scream about wording of the Second Amendment, but let's take that a step further:

There is nothing at all in the Bill Of Rights about porn being shown on television. So, why is it regulated? Same thing. Words matter. "Well Regulated Militia" is specifically in the Bill Of Rights. Porn is not.

And, again, the Second Amendment was written at a time when able bodied men had to be called to active duty at a moment's notice to fight the British. There was no regular Army or National Guard or even police force. It was trained citizens so we could resist the British. There was no other choice.

The Supreme Court has expanded the definition of "Freedom Of Speech" to include pornography and television because times change. But, the right seems to be stuck in a time warp when it comes to guns. Why?


We could take the 2nd Amendment a step further, why not include a nuclear weapon? Nobody in their right mind would allow that in the hands of a civilian, so everybody accepts some kind of restrictions, then it is a matter what kind of regulations do you accept.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Well, there is an obvious solution to this challenge - go after the producers and retailers of guns and ammunition. Now bear with me for a second, it's not what you think it is.

This side of the water, several industries (including travel) are bound by law to have a trustfund to cover for industrial failures. One recent example is Monarch, where the UK ATOL scheme covered much of the repatriation cost and reimbursement for cancelled holidays. That scheme is paid for by the travel industry, as a percentage of their turnover.

Why not do the same with manufacturers and sellers of guns and ammunition?


Because, as any gun nut will tell you:

guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Well since liberals like yourself seem to think taking guns away will solve all problems lets look at the land down under.

Australian Gun Law Update

Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts....
From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia
Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real
figures from Down Under.
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to
surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own
government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
more than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,
Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria.....
lone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.(Note that
while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not
and criminals still possess their guns!)
While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins andassaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.
Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns....' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.
The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the
hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note Americans, before it's too late!
Will you be one of the sheep to turn yours in?
WHY? You will need it.

But there has been no mass shootings so there is that..
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:20 pm

Misterbrown wrote:
seb146 wrote:
And, again, the Second Amendment was written at a time when able bodied men had to be called to active duty at a moment's notice to fight the British.

You spelled kill Indians wrong,


Correct - also, to call Vegas the worse gun massacre in US History ignores the "Battle" at Wounded Knee (which was really more of an ambush/slaughter than a battle). 150-300 Native Americans killed there, depending on who's count you trust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre
Last edited by LittleFokker on Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
Misterbrown
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:04 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:22 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Australian Gun Law Update

You got that from freeperville - right?
 
seb146
Posts: 15353
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:53 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Well, there is an obvious solution to this challenge - go after the producers and retailers of guns and ammunition. Now bear with me for a second, it's not what you think it is.

This side of the water, several industries (including travel) are bound by law to have a trustfund to cover for industrial failures. One recent example is Monarch, where the UK ATOL scheme covered much of the repatriation cost and reimbursement for cancelled holidays. That scheme is paid for by the travel industry, as a percentage of their turnover.

Why not do the same with manufacturers and sellers of guns and ammunition?


Because, as any gun nut will tell you:

guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Well since liberals like yourself seem to think taking guns away will solve all problems lets look at the land down under.

Australian Gun Law Update

Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts....
From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia
Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real
figures from Down Under.
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to
surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own
government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
more than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,
Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria.....
lone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.(Note that
while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not
and criminals still possess their guns!)
While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins andassaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.
Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns....' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.
The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the
hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note Americans, before it's too late!
Will you be one of the sheep to turn yours in?
WHY? You will need it.

But there has been no mass shootings so there is that..


And Chicago would not happen, either. These "assaults" written about in your "account" are with knives or cars, I am guessing?

So, we should just go with the right wing "slippery slope" argument because reasons? Why do you righties hate life?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
Posts: 15353
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:54 am

Isn't it also interesting Republicans want to make it damn near impossible to vote but they want to let anyone have as many guns as possible?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:04 am

slider wrote:
The mental health part of this, as the OP first posited, is what strikes me.
In the overwhelming number of school shootings and such, there is the presence of psychotropic drugs. As of last year, in fact, 90% if not more by now, were linked to antidepressants and/or ADHD meds.
When you factor in other mental illnesses, it does make one think. I haven't read enough about the Vegas perpetrator to know if this applies (gambling issues anecdotally reported, who knows what path that takes one down), but the discussion is a good one to have.


It is an excellent discussion to have. The problem with limiting gun ownership based on mental illness is that any law that is passed cannot violate the 5th and 14th amendments to the US Constitution. These amendments establish the right to due process. So you need a way to define mental illness, and then a way to provide a person to have a fair process to defend themselves against the governments position.

Additionally, it is not clear that persons with previously diagnosed mental illness actually cause more gun violence than non-diagnose people. See this article from the national institutes of Health:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

From the article: "A number of studies also suggest that stereotypes of “violent madmen” invert on-the-ground realities. Nestor theorizes that serious mental illnesses such as schizophrenia actually reduce the risk of violence over time, as the illnesses are in many cases marked by social isolation and withdrawal.43 Brekke et al. illustrate that the risk is exponentially greater that individuals diagnosed with serious mental illness will be assaulted by others, rather than the other way around."

another quote:

This is not to suggest that researchers know nothing about predictive factors for gun violence. However, credible studies suggest that a number of risk factors more strongly correlate with gun violence than mental illness alone. For instance, alcohol and drug use increase the risk of violent crime by as much as 7-fold, even among persons with no history of mental illness—a concerning statistic in the face of recent legislation that allows persons in certain US states to bring loaded handguns into bars and nightclubs.49,50 According to Van Dorn et al., a history of childhood abuse, binge drinking, and male gender are all predictive risk factors for serious violence.51

My take on this article is that the "mentally ill" are a large class of vulnerable people that should not necessarily be stereotyped as more likely to cause gun violence.

Id hate to see our government engage in discrimination of a vulnerable class of citizens out of a media hyped mass hysterical fear
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:54 am

seb146 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

I'm not stupid, there's no money in running a gun dealer. The margins on firearms are too thin and nobody buys accessories and ammo in stores these days. So no, its personal use, not even a walk in safe. Ideally, if I move into a larger house, I'll build an entire walk-in room that's a safe room.


Absolutely correct. My friends don't have inventories of firearms to sell. Customers request items to order, and they order the merchandise that is then shipped to them. Ever since 1968, it has been illegal to sell guns by mail order. Guns for retail sale must be shipped to an FFL holder who keeps the records and makes the sale to the customer. Their safe contains mostly their personal firearms, a few firearms that have not yet been picked up by the purchaser and items ordered for their other business venture waiting to be delivered. Must of the guns in their safe are their personal firearms.


What about gun shows and Craigslist and Ebay and Soldier Of Fortune magazine?


They have an FFL. They have to run background checks unless the customers have a carry license. I don't think EBay allows guns to be sold through their website, although they allow the sale of accessories. I don't think Craigslist allows the listing of firearms.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 1937
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:49 am

What about violent video games, you know the ones a lot of these crazy nuts practice on before doing it for real? Along with violent Hollywood movies that may inspire a crazy nut? But its not feasible right, we love our violent and very profitable video games and we love big action shoot them up movies. So the question is do we "really" want to take the steps neccessary to not only take away the tools for a mass shooting but the motivation also.
 
seb146
Posts: 15353
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:21 pm

william wrote:
What about violent video games, you know the ones a lot of these crazy nuts practice on before doing it for real? Along with violent Hollywood movies that may inspire a crazy nut? But its not feasible right, we love our violent and very profitable video games and we love big action shoot them up movies. So the question is do we "really" want to take the steps neccessary to not only take away the tools for a mass shooting but the motivation also.


Just like banning and never showing the Road Runner because it tells kids it is okay to jump off a cliff in a giant metal ball or Bugs Bunny because it encourages homosexuality? C'mon, man. If video games were the root cause of mass shootings, there would be evidence. Easy access to guns and accessories is something people (especially Republicans) are not willing to mess with.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
Posts: 15353
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:25 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

Absolutely correct. My friends don't have inventories of firearms to sell. Customers request items to order, and they order the merchandise that is then shipped to them. Ever since 1968, it has been illegal to sell guns by mail order. Guns for retail sale must be shipped to an FFL holder who keeps the records and makes the sale to the customer. Their safe contains mostly their personal firearms, a few firearms that have not yet been picked up by the purchaser and items ordered for their other business venture waiting to be delivered. Must of the guns in their safe are their personal firearms.


What about gun shows and Craigslist and Ebay and Soldier Of Fortune magazine?


They have an FFL. They have to run background checks unless the customers have a carry license. I don't think EBay allows guns to be sold through their website, although they allow the sale of accessories. I don't think Craigslist allows the listing of firearms.


This site shows what background checks are done with private sales in each state:

http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-tr ... state.html

So, basically, none in Republican controlled states.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:30 pm

william wrote:
What about violent video games, you know the ones a lot of these crazy nuts practice on before doing it for real? Along with violent Hollywood movies that may inspire a crazy nut? But its not feasible right, we love our violent and very profitable video games and we love big action shoot them up movies. So the question is do we "really" want to take the steps neccessary to not only take away the tools for a mass shooting but the motivation also.


Other countries have violent video games and films, but no mass shootings. I would suggest it's something particular to the USA since so many more mass shootings happen there...
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Preventing Mass Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

What about gun shows and Craigslist and Ebay and Soldier Of Fortune magazine?


They have an FFL. They have to run background checks unless the customers have a carry license. I don't think EBay allows guns to be sold through their website, although they allow the sale of accessories. I don't think Craigslist allows the listing of firearms.


This site shows what background checks are done with private sales in each state:

http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-tr ... state.html

So, basically, none in Republican controlled states.


The people in question have an FFL (Federal Firearms License). If you read the first line of the section where the individual state regulations are listed, it says:

Background Check When Seller Is Not a Licensed Dealer


The friends of which I was talking are licenced firearm dealers. They are therefore required to run a background check with every sale unless the purchaser has a carry license.

People who have licenses to carry have already undergone a more stringent background check and have to renew every 5 years. Also anyone with a CL must present the CL anytime a police officer requests to see it. It must be presented along with a a driver's license if pulled over for a driving infraction. They must be kept up to date. If the holder moves, the address must be promptly changed. Lost or stolen cards must be reported promptly.

There is no requirement for registration of firearms in my home state of Texas. It is legal to gift firearms to people who are not forbidden to possess them. Gifts of firearms to minors are only allowed with the permission of the parent or guardian. Handguns may not be owned by anyone under 18. It is legal to inherit firearms too.

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