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EA CO AS
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:02 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
[
stratosphere wrote:

Because there is truth in it. Chicago has very strict gun laws but yet look at it..


The shame of it is, those laws are a total waste of time, go 45 minutes out of town and you are in Indiana, where buying a gun is easier than getting a drivers license.



If that were the case, then Indiana must be the gun-selling capital of the U.S. - right?

Oops, it's not. Not even close. Illinois ran 5X more gun-related background checks than Indiana so far in 2017:

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nic ... e.pdf/view

But it's ridiculously easy to get a gun in Indiana, right?

Wrong. Read on:

http://www.jconline.com/story/news/loca ... /78428160/
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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LMP737
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:31 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
So, if they were true automatic weapons, tell me how more laws on the books prevent this, when there are already laws on the books that are a defacto ban on them


I mean why have laws at all. People are just going to break them.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:08 pm

If Sandyhook didn't change anything then fat chance Las Vegas will.

The NRA will come out with it's talking points about how we need to enforce the current laws instead of making new ones. Ignoring the fact that the NRA does it's best to either gut current laws or make enforcing them harder. There are parts in this country where you can openly carry an assault weapon. There was a time if you did that the police would descend upon you enforce.

Speaking of police ever wonder why there are so many police involved shooting in this country when compared to other industrialized nations? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that every cop has to assume the person they are about to interact with is armed.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:25 pm

LMP737 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
So, if they were true automatic weapons, tell me how more laws on the books prevent this, when there are already laws on the books that are a defacto ban on them


I mean why have laws at all. People are just going to break them.


Because it keeps the ones who tend to be honest to stay honest. Outlaws and other scumbags don't care about laws.Just like locking your front door it's a deterrent albeit a small one but of someone wants in your house they are coming in. Provided there isn't an armed homeowner then they may not get far.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:45 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Because it keeps the ones who tend to be honest to stay honest. Outlaws and other scumbags don't care about laws.Just like locking your front door it's a deterrent albeit a small one but of someone wants in your house they are coming in. Provided there isn't an armed homeowner then they may not get far.


Laws work because the public in general supports them and assists in enforcing them (primarily by providing information).

The truth is most people follow the law, even bad people follow laws to avoid too much notice (maybe obey the speed limits or pay taxes or make sure their kids go to school), just making up in their heads why they don't need to follow whatever law is in their way. With laws on books, since most people follow them, law enforcement can concentrate on the smaller subset of people who are breaking the law and also receive input from the law abiding public to find those breaking the law.

It appears there are two responses that are acceptable to people against controls on guns and their use and ownership:
1.) More guns would have prevented the situation. (For Sandyhook the idea is that if the teachers or a guard were present they would have stopped the attack).

And in situations where #1 can't/doesn't apply: 2.) More/changing laws would not help because a. there are enough laws, b. people will just ignore the laws, c. it means only bad people would have guns.

But as I note above laws do work in general.

Tugg
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DDR
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:16 pm

The truth is that there are already so many guns in circulation/possession in the U.S., that if laws were passed tomorrow to stop gun sales, it would not make a difference. And if by chance such a law were ever passed, how would the government go about taking guns away from people that already have them? That is the issue. You can blame the NRA or the government but the truth is, the cat is already out of the bag.

The guns are out there, now how do you stop the bad people from using them?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:25 pm

DDR wrote:
The truth is that there are already so many guns in circulation/possession in the U.S., that if laws were passed tomorrow to stop gun sales, it would not make a difference. And if by chance such a law were ever passed, how would the government go about taking guns away from people that already have them? That is the issue. You can blame the NRA or the government but the truth is, the cat is already out of the bag.

The guns are out there, now how do you stop the bad people from using them?

No taking guns away is needed. Those that have them now, for the most part have them. Pass laws. Don't allow sales or transfers without following the new law and protocol. Let the public help. Slowly remove unlawful guns from circulation.

Again, the point is not to take guns away, the point is to allow people to own them and use them and reduce the criminal and mentally ill elements from obtaining them. It won't be perfect and it won't prevent all incidents (like Vegas etc.) but it will reduce such things. Is it easy? No. But it is, I believe, a worthwhile task. The idea of "stopping the bad people from using them" completely is a red herring.

Remember we live in the USA and the 2nd Amendment is the guiding element and so any laws need to follow allowing citizens to keep and bear arms.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
salttee
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:33 am

Tugger wrote:
the 2nd Amendment is the guiding element and so any laws need to follow allowing citizens to keep and bear arms.

I disagree with that statement. The current interpretation of the second amendment is the (current) guiding element.

The second amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


The current right wing interpretation of the second amendment ignores the phrase "A well regulated Militia". In 17th century colonies, the security of the state did require an armed population; in the 21st century, unregulated arms actually threaten the security of a the state. The casting aside of the "well regulated Militia" phrase and the consideration of the actual security of the state are certain to be reconsidered at some point in the future.

The amendment is in contradiction with itself, how can a militia be "well regulated" if the rights of each individual cannot be infringed? The court has an obligation to understand 17th century circumstance vs current circumstance in order to sort that out.

This cannot be ignored forever because this false interpretation of the second amendment feeds the delusion of many social outcasts in our society that they are a militia which has the right and responsibility to challenge the government if it strays away from what in their minds is the actual purpose of government. This is a dangerous delusion for us to be feeding.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:12 am

If you look at the first draft by Madison and Mason, this should be quite clear:

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.”

or the version which was entered into the Senate for debate:

“A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.” United States v. Miller (1939) was quite clear.
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:31 am

Another interesting point:

If a "Christian" baker is endorsing a "lifestyle" for baking a wedding cake for gays, then a "Christian" gun store owner endorses murder for selling weapons to a terrorist.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
tommy1808
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:50 am

stratosphere wrote:
Because it keeps the ones who tend to be honest to stay honest. Outlaws and other scumbags don't care about laws.


even if you repeat that a million times, it doesn´t make the statement any less wrong. In Germany, despite 15 millions illegal firearms in circulation, almost no criminal is armed with one, or even any other weapon that may be considered lethal. Reason is simple, robbery without a dangerous weapon can mean a one year sentence, which for first time offenders usually means no prison time at all and parole from day one, if you used a weapon you are looking at 3 years minimum for just bringing it and 5 years minimum if you used it to 15 years if you really hurt someone with it.

Criminals are also economical beings and do make a risk/reward assessment and in an environment where guns will not be beneficial, they don´t have them. That is not theory, that is proven over and over by nations that have strickt gun laws.

seb146 wrote:
If a "Christian" baker is endorsing a "lifestyle" for baking a wedding cake for gays, then a "Christian" gun store owner endorses murder for selling weapons to a terrorist.


Well, you are talking about the same people that have no problem of making other constitutional rights, like having an abortion, almost inaccessible, so logic won´t help.

LMP737 wrote:
If Sandyhook didn't change anything then fat chance Las Vegas will.


Yup, "Dead children are the price of freedom" should be an NRA bumper sticker.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:16 am

America is a strange country. I just read that they pulled all promoting material for "The Punisher" TV series from the next Comic-Con due to the shooting in Vegas, but touching the gun laws is off limits.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:57 am

seahawk wrote:
America is a strange country. I just read that they pulled all promoting material for "The Punisher" TV series from the next Comic-Con due to the shooting in Vegas, but touching the gun laws is off limits.


And heaven forbid a nipple be seen on network TV. :crazy:
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na
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:52 am

Its rather irritating that 3 1/2 days after the massacre not the slightest hint of a motive has been found.
One thing seems obvious: he had no close friends, and the connections to his family appear to have been very loose. No matter that he had a girlfriend, he apparently was a loner. Maybe he developed a paranoia of people? If he wanted to make a statement of some sort something in that direction should be found. What about the suspected recent conversion to Islam? Was that misinformation?

No words about what was found on his computer or mobile phone. Quite odd also the statement of the killer´s girlfriend that he was a nice man. She lived with him in a rather small two-bedroom house and didnt know about the arsenal he kept? She didnt say anything about friends? Quite telling. She didnt find it strange that the built high fences around the house blocking the nice views offered from the place? She didnt find it strange that the neighbours had to call the authorities to tear down these fences? And the press didnt ask the Sheriff why she didnt find that strange? Why didnt the press ask? That would have been the first questions I would ask as a reporter.
 
salttee
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:17 am

seahawk wrote:
If you look at the first draft by Madison and Mason, this should be quite clear:

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.”

or the version which was entered into the Senate for debate:

“A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.” United States v. Miller (1939) was quite clear.

You're ignoring the contradiction between "A well regulated" and "shall not be infringed". How can we regulate the militia unless we have the power to take guns away from people who are loose canons? In the time around 1800, a loose canon might have been someone who shot peaceful Indians; in the 21st century it may come to be that sensible regulation requires that automatic or semi automatic long guns should not be sold to the general public.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:31 am

salttee wrote:
seahawk wrote:
If you look at the first draft by Madison and Mason, this should be quite clear:

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.”

or the version which was entered into the Senate for debate:

“A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.” United States v. Miller (1939) was quite clear.

You're ignoring the contradiction between "A well regulated" and "shall not be infringed". How can we regulate the militia unless we have the power to take guns away from people who are loose canons? In the time around 1800, a loose canon might have been someone who shot peaceful Indians; in the 21st century it may come to be that sensible regulation requires that automatic or semi automatic long guns should not be sold to the general public.


I did agree with you, the context makes it quite clear that the right to bear arms is connected to the existence of state regulated militias.Which means that after the National Guard was federalized, this only applies to the volunteers of the state defence forces. They are part of regulated militia.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:26 pm

Image

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Perhaps they want to help us to form a more perfect union.

Maybe, it's because they are failing at that task in Europe?


Cultural relativism from the Yanks. Collectively deluded into thinking their gun worshipping culture must be equal to that of all others in the western world.


Admittedly, BobPatterson's views on the issue of guns seem to be moderate.

tommy1808 wrote:
That is a lot of "if". If guns are supposed to protect from government violence, the burden of proof has to be below to that a cop has. Armed and a perceived threat = legal shooting.

And i am not really sure it would be good enough to have a video in any case.

European cops aren't shooting unarmed, nonthreatening, innocent people on the streets. Last time I checked, they weren't shooting six year old kids either.

jetero wrote:
Had never heard of this guy.

What a winner.

Why do so many americans worship him?

LMP737 wrote:
If Sandyhook didn't change anything then fat chance Las Vegas will.

For sure. The powers at be see both incidents as small prices to pay for america's greatness.

LMP737 wrote:
The NRA will come out with it's talking points about how we need to enforce the current laws instead of making new ones. Ignoring the fact that the NRA does it's best to either gut current laws or make enforcing them harder. There are parts in this country where you can openly carry an assault weapon. There was a time if you did that the police would descend upon you enforce.

The fact is that if the NRA 1) actually believed that guns weren't the problem and 2) actually wanted to solve the problem, they'd expend some of their lobbying resources trying to improve mental healthcare facilities and other such things so that the actions of loonies like Paddock didn't bring the image of 'law abiding gunowners' into disrepute.

Tugger wrote:
Slowly remove unlawful guns from circulation.

Again, the point is not to take guns away, the point is to allow people to own them and use them and reduce the criminal and mentally ill elements from obtaining them. It won't be perfect and it won't prevent all incidents

The fact is that through supply and demand, reducing the number of guns in circulation will inherently have a positive effect. As the price on the street of an illegal gun goes up, some 'players' will be knocked out of the market. The wealthy american subsidiary of a mexican drug cartel will still probably be able to afford most of what they want, but the unemployed druggee teenagers planing on robbing the local liquor store will face a much higher barrier to market entry.

Not perfect, but it's a start.

stratosphere wrote:
Because it keeps the ones who tend to be honest to stay honest. Outlaws and other scumbags don't care about laws.

This is why I support getting rid of airport security. It didn't prevent 9/11 and is generally just an inconvenience which adds to the cost of air travel.
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jetwet1
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:40 pm

seahawk wrote:
America is a strange country. I just read that they pulled all promoting material for "The Punisher" TV series from the next Comic-Con due to the shooting in Vegas, but touching the gun laws is off limits.


In 2001 one guy tries to set off a bomb on a plane hidden in his shoe, now we all have to take our shoes off....

In the same time frame over 300,000 Americans have been killed by guns.....Crickets from Congress.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:29 pm

na wrote:
Its rather irritating that 3 1/2 days after the massacre not the slightest hint of a motive has been found.
One thing seems obvious: he had no close friends, and the connections to his family appear to have been very loose. No matter that he had a girlfriend, he apparently was a loner. Maybe he developed a paranoia of people? If he wanted to make a statement of some sort something in that direction should be found. What about the suspected recent conversion to Islam? Was that misinformation?

No words about what was found on his computer or mobile phone. Quite odd also the statement of the killer´s girlfriend that he was a nice man. She lived with him in a rather small two-bedroom house and didnt know about the arsenal he kept? She didnt say anything about friends? Quite telling. She didnt find it strange that the built high fences around the house blocking the nice views offered from the place? She didnt find it strange that the neighbours had to call the authorities to tear down these fences? And the press didnt ask the Sheriff why she didnt find that strange? Why didnt the press ask? That would have been the first questions I would ask as a reporter.


Do you trust the US government to tell you the truth about this ?

It's a serious question. We were pretty astounded to hear the FBI say, mere hours after the attack, that the mass shooting in Las Vegas had "no connection with an international terrorist group". Looked like deflection of blame, and not the first time this happens either.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
na
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:00 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
America is a strange country. I just read that they pulled all promoting material for "The Punisher" TV series from the next Comic-Con due to the shooting in Vegas, but touching the gun laws is off limits.


In 2001 one guy tries to set off a bomb on a plane hidden in his shoe, now we all have to take our shoes off....

In the same time frame over 300,000 Americans have been killed by guns.....Crickets from Congress.


Anyone needs more proof that Washington is the puppet state of the weapons industry?
 
na
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
na wrote:
....


Do you trust the US government to tell you the truth about this ?

It's a serious question. We were pretty astounded to hear the FBI say, mere hours after the attack, that the mass shooting in Las Vegas had "no connection with an international terrorist group". Looked like deflection of blame, and not the first time this happens either.


I never do fully trust that what the authorities say directly after such grave criminal events is the full truth as they know it. Not because I do not trust the authorities as such, but because usually they have to play tactics, hide details, need to prevent panic etc., to find out the truth.
 
salttee
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:09 pm

na wrote:
not the slightest hint of a motive has been found.

Maybe that's because the people who are doing the investigating are misanthropes themselves so they have a bit of a blind spot to that.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:40 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
I enjoy the freedom to own, carry, and operate a firearm in most circumstances. That's a very important freedom for me personally, my fellow citizens, and for checking against tyrannical government.

I wonder if anyone has ever compiled a list of the instances (since the 2nd Amendment was adopted) in which a group of citizens rose up as a check against tyrannical government.

I'm aware that on some occasions the Federal or State Governments have called out the militia to suppress illegal activities by groups of citizens.



Did it ever occur to you that one very big reason government hasn’t even dared turn tyrannical in the history of the U.S. is BECAUSE of the existence of the Second Amendment?


Maybe in the early stages of the US but since the start of the 20th century not a chance.

The one thing that prevents tyranny in the US is first amendment and the ability of the citizens to assemble, make fun of and criticize their government. Worry about this right being taken away and the last three administrations have not been good for the first amendment.

The US is not unique on having the right to free speech and that is what it has in common with other democratic nations.

The second amendment will not prevent a tyrannical government from happening because that government if it comes will be put into power by the people and will have control of the largest military that the planet has ever seen. Comedians mock the second amendment for this reason (even the right wing Dennis Miller has) because as said if the US military or law enforcement wants you dead, you are dead. The only hope is that real well regulated militia (police and the armed forces) defy the orders of a president or a congress that would take the rights away from its own people.

Even the enemies of the US know they could never take it over using military force

seahawk wrote:
America is a strange country. I just read that they pulled all promoting material for "The Punisher" TV series from the next Comic-Con due to the shooting in Vegas, but touching the gun laws is off limits.


They also stopped airing a re-run of the Simpson's episode "The city of New York vs Homer Simpson" for 10 years or so after 9/11 because it featured the World Trade Centre.

The South Park movie (and the show in general) which is nearly 20 years old sums up the priorities of America quite well. Loves violence but open sexuality and swear words can't be tolerated.

stratosphere wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
This thread has gone pretty much exactly the way I thought. Americans are OK with gun violence, and there's no point in trying to stop it in America for a couple more generations.

I am very interested to know what people who say, "what about gun violence in Chicago?" can offer as a solution to the problems Chicago faces without naming a political party or figure. Just, do X, Y, and then Z. Pie in the sky ideas welcome.

They don't have a solution. They just need a scapegoat, and Chicago is one of their favorites.


Because there is truth in it. Chicago has very strict gun laws but yet look at it.. When are you liberals gonna get the fact you cannot legislate your way out of this issue. Hard core drugs, prostitution and at one time Alcohol were and still are illegal where has that gotten us? Alcohol is now legal again and the other stuff you can get pretty readily whenever you want it. This shooter had no criminal background and therefore would not have been stopped by current or future gun laws. I don't know what the answer is I don't personally agree that anyone needs AR-15's or an arsenal of weapons I am not a big gun person anyway but again I agree with background checks etc..But this reactionary view the liberals take is just a feel good measure it will not do a damn thing as long as some evil people live among us you can take away all the guns they will use another method for their carnage think Timothy McVeigh. I think more people need to speak out when they see something out of the ordinary. Maybe this guys girlfriend knew something but said nothing.I know the neighbors of the San Bernardino shooters knew something but said nothing for fear of being called racists. I think people speaking up when they see something wrong will stop this more than any gun laws will. The only people who obey laws are law abiding citizens.


Why has regulating guns worked in other countries?

Making access harder reduces the amount of gun related crime that can happen as well as mass shootings. It hasn't eliminated crime but reduced it.

Furthermore I would argue back that a lot of the reason for inner city violence is how lucrative illegal drug dealing is because the the useless war on drugs that has been going on in the US in decades as well as criminal justice and prison system that basically makes one unemployable and not a functional member of society if they happen to make a mistake in life.

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Back to the topic, do US citizens find normal that the FBI has dismissed the Islamist terrorism angle right away ? I thought with Trump the PC was supposed to end ?

It's really strange that Trump tweets instantly condemning such terrorism when it happens elsewhere, but when it's in his own backyard, suddenly it's the devil's fault or whatever nonsense ?


This isn't terrorism, this is a mass shooting, terrorism requirers some form of political or religious aim, until that's discovered this is a guy who got out of bed put his pants on and started shooting people without reason.


I agree that this massacre is likely not terrorism but had this been a non-white individual in the exact same circumstances the assumption would have been terrorism first then ask questions later.
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seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
America is a strange country. I just read that they pulled all promoting material for "The Punisher" TV series from the next Comic-Con due to the shooting in Vegas, but touching the gun laws is off limits.


Yes, complete outrage over bare female breasts, parental controls and ratings on video games like Grand Theft Auto and Call Of Duty but mass shootings? meh...
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:13 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Back to the topic, do US citizens find normal that the FBI has dismissed the Islamist terrorism angle right away ? I thought with Trump the PC was supposed to end ?

It's really strange that Trump tweets instantly condemning such terrorism when it happens elsewhere, but when it's in his own backyard, suddenly it's the devil's fault or whatever nonsense ?


This isn't terrorism, this is a mass shooting, terrorism requirers some form of political or religious aim, until that's discovered this is a guy who got out of bed put his pants on and started shooting people without reason.


Why can no one call it terrorism when a white man is the shooter? Aurora and Charleston and Sandy Hook and now Las Vegas. They were "lone wolf" but the very first thing the right and media said about Orlando and San Burnardino was "terrorism" because they shooter was not white.

By Nevada's definition, Las Vegas was terrorism. After every mass shooting, we are intimidated. That, to me, is a show of terrorism, no matter the race.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
tommy1808
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:41 pm

zkojq wrote:

European cops aren't shooting unarmed, nonthreatening, innocent people on the streets. Last time I checked, they weren't shooting six year old kids either.


Check, this is about the extend of what police gets away with with a "ok... this was justified, but why the hell did that cop get himself cornered like that??? We need to improve police training in that regard!"

This guy had an 8 inch knife, had refused to drop it over the couple of minutes before the video starts, the cop still gets two more "drop the knife"s out and retreats as far as he safely could before losing a single round. None of the other cops present felt the neat to fire as well.

https://youtu.be/pxzuTd5Y1Lc

We pretty much go apeshit each time the shooting is any less justified than this.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:41 pm

I wonder if the LV terror shooter was a long running con man as well as in debt to the IRS for his Federal income taxes. He investments seemed to be doing very well but we know little about them and I suspect there may have been some very shady or criminal deals he was involved in. There is a close connection with those involved in shady/criminal financial or other 'businesses' as well as big gamblers who get into issues for unpaid taxes. His frequent moves, his limited connections with others in recent years may be signs too. I wouldn't be surprised of either comes out in the investigation.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:43 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Back to the topic, do US citizens find normal that the FBI has dismissed the Islamist terrorism angle right away ? I thought with Trump the PC was supposed to end ?

It's really strange that Trump tweets instantly condemning such terrorism when it happens elsewhere, but when it's in his own backyard, suddenly it's the devil's fault or whatever nonsense ?


This isn't terrorism, this is a mass shooting, terrorism requirers some form of political or religious aim, until that's discovered this is a guy who got out of bed put his pants on and started shooting people without reason.


Why can no one call it terrorism when a white man is the shooter? Aurora and Charleston and Sandy Hook and now Las Vegas. They were "lone wolf" but the very first thing the right and media said about Orlando and San Burnardino was "terrorism" because they shooter was not white.

By Nevada's definition, Las Vegas was terrorism. After every mass shooting, we are intimidated. That, to me, is a show of terrorism, no matter the race.

There's nothing you can do to prevent mass shootings. Unless the shooter is Muslim in which case ban them all from entering the country and god knows what else. That said, I'm not really sure designating every shooting as "terrorism" does anything but detract from the obvious--any yahoo can buy an armory and wipe out dozens and we'll never do a damn thing about it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
NIKV69
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:32 am

seb146 wrote:
That is a lie and you know it. The only people who keep this lie up are right wing media outlets who hand feed it to right wing zombies who believe everything they are told period. Who and when as any "far left" politician recently said they want to ban ALL guns? Names and dates, please.


Jan Schakowsky, Feb 2013 "I'm against handguns"

Dianne Feinstein, 1995 "If I could have got 51 votes for an outright ban, picking up every one of them. Mr and Mrs America turn them all in"

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/gun-laws/ ... otherwise/

Watch the videos and listen to what they say. Don't attack the source.

You have to stop blaming the media and hiding behind your propaganda that we are brainwashed. It's crap. The fringe left wants no guns, 60% tax rate on the rich and for us to be like Europe. I just thank God people speak at the voting booth and keep this far left Zealots in the minority.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:53 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
That is a lie and you know it. The only people who keep this lie up are right wing media outlets who hand feed it to right wing zombies who believe everything they are told period. Who and when as any "far left" politician recently said they want to ban ALL guns? Names and dates, please.


Jan Schakowsky, Feb 2013 "I'm against handguns"

Dianne Feinstein, 1995 "If I could have got 51 votes for an outright ban, picking up every one of them. Mr and Mrs America turn them all in"

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/gun-laws/ ... otherwise/

Watch the videos and listen to what they say. Don't attack the source.

You have to stop blaming the media and hiding behind your propaganda that we are brainwashed. It's crap. The fringe left wants no guns, 60% tax rate on the rich and for us to be like Europe. I just thank God people speak at the voting booth and keep this far left Zealots in the minority.


Instead of reading your biased source, I went ahead and googled "Jan Schakowsky handgun" and, not surprisingly, all I found were extremist right wing sites claiming her stand behind banning assault weapons is just a front for taking all guns away. Ditto Feinstein who made that comment over 20 years ago. Even Ronald Reagan wanted to ban assault weapons, so your case holds no water.

Swing and a miss...
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:56 am

The Second Amendment was written at a time when the United States had no National Guard or regular Armed Forces or even local police forces like we have today. All they had was able bodied men who used their own weapons and were told how to load, clean, operate, and also had a command structure for these able bodied men to fight the British. This was the militia. The precursor to our Army and National Guard.

Go read what the right wing savior St. Ronnie Reagan said about guns.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:18 am

I scrolled past something interesting on my FB feed. The link and site I am posting is patently biased, but the event they are discussing should be noted.

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/10/4/ ... _killed_60

I had not heard about this until today. This is an example of "whitewashing" history.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:04 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Back to the topic, do US citizens find normal that the FBI has dismissed the Islamist terrorism angle right away ? I thought with Trump the PC was supposed to end ?

It's really strange that Trump tweets instantly condemning such terrorism when it happens elsewhere, but when it's in his own backyard, suddenly it's the devil's fault or whatever nonsense ?


This isn't terrorism, this is a mass shooting, terrorism requirers some form of political or religious aim, until that's discovered this is a guy who got out of bed put his pants on and started shooting people without reason.


Why can no one call it terrorism when a white man is the shooter? Aurora and Charleston and Sandy Hook and now Las Vegas. They were "lone wolf" but the very first thing the right and media said about Orlando and San Burnardino was "terrorism" because they shooter was not white.

By Nevada's definition, Las Vegas was terrorism. After every mass shooting, we are intimidated. That, to me, is a show of terrorism, no matter the race.


Terrorism has to have a political motive. Murder, even mass murder on its own isn't terrorism.

Your view on these shootings is very isolationist, mass murders can and do happen in many countries, but it's not always terrorism.
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:14 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

This isn't terrorism, this is a mass shooting, terrorism requirers some form of political or religious aim, until that's discovered this is a guy who got out of bed put his pants on and started shooting people without reason.


Why can no one call it terrorism when a white man is the shooter? Aurora and Charleston and Sandy Hook and now Las Vegas. They were "lone wolf" but the very first thing the right and media said about Orlando and San Burnardino was "terrorism" because they shooter was not white.

By Nevada's definition, Las Vegas was terrorism. After every mass shooting, we are intimidated. That, to me, is a show of terrorism, no matter the race.


Terrorism has to have a political motive. Murder, even mass murder on its own isn't terrorism.

Your view on these shootings is very isolationist, mass murders can and do happen in many countries, but it's not always terrorism.


No, my view is truthful. If you go back and watch the first 10 minutes of coverage from both San Burnardino and from Orlando, the media (especially right wing) were quick to scream "TERRORISTS!" Sorry, but that is how the lame stream media works. A white guy is a lone wolf but a brown person is a terrorist.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:39 pm

seb146 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Why can no one call it terrorism when a white man is the shooter? Aurora and Charleston and Sandy Hook and now Las Vegas. They were "lone wolf" but the very first thing the right and media said about Orlando and San Burnardino was "terrorism" because they shooter was not white.

By Nevada's definition, Las Vegas was terrorism. After every mass shooting, we are intimidated. That, to me, is a show of terrorism, no matter the race.


Terrorism has to have a political motive. Murder, even mass murder on its own isn't terrorism.

Your view on these shootings is very isolationist, mass murders can and do happen in many countries, but it's not always terrorism.


No, my view is truthful. If you go back and watch the first 10 minutes of coverage from both San Burnardino and from Orlando, the media (especially right wing) were quick to scream "TERRORISTS!" Sorry, but that is how the lame stream media works. A white guy is a lone wolf but a brown person is a terrorist.


In your opinion.

So what were the political motives of the guy?
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Why can no one call it terrorism when a white man is the shooter? Aurora and Charleston and Sandy Hook and now Las Vegas. They were "lone wolf" but the very first thing the right and media said about Orlando and San Burnardino was "terrorism" because they shooter was not white.

By Nevada's definition, Las Vegas was terrorism. After every mass shooting, we are intimidated. That, to me, is a show of terrorism, no matter the race.


Terrorism has to have a political motive. Murder, even mass murder on its own isn't terrorism.

Your view on these shootings is very isolationist, mass murders can and do happen in many countries, but it's not always terrorism.


No, my view is truthful. If you go back and watch the first 10 minutes of coverage from both San Burnardino and from Orlando, the media (especially right wing) were quick to scream "TERRORISTS!" Sorry, but that is how the lame stream media works. A white guy is a lone wolf but a brown person is a terrorist.


No, your view is your opinion. One that is skewed by your safe space liberal views...
From my cold, dead hands
 
tommy1808
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:54 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
No, your view is your opinion. One that is skewed by your safe space liberal views...


Since many TV stations have online archives you could of course proof that what he is saying ain't true. But you won't, because you know you can't.

Or shall we look at your presidents tweets? Or check the Trump fan echo chamber, you know all those websites screening it was a leftist trump hater called Geary Danley and are currently busy making Paddock an Antifa terrorist.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:11 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

Terrorism has to have a political motive. Murder, even mass murder on its own isn't terrorism.

Your view on these shootings is very isolationist, mass murders can and do happen in many countries, but it's not always terrorism.


No, my view is truthful. If you go back and watch the first 10 minutes of coverage from both San Burnardino and from Orlando, the media (especially right wing) were quick to scream "TERRORISTS!" Sorry, but that is how the lame stream media works. A white guy is a lone wolf but a brown person is a terrorist.


No, your view is your opinion. One that is skewed by your safe space liberal views...


"Safe Space" is the only thing you blood thirsty righties will allow so your precious guns are kept intact. These terror attacks are because of you righties. Not because "safe space liberals." Where was the "good guy with a gun" that you all love to screech about?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
NIKV69
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:54 am

seb146 wrote:

Instead of reading your biased source, I went ahead and googled "Jan Schakowsky handgun" and, not surprisingly, all I found were extremist right wing sites claiming her stand behind banning assault weapons is just a front for taking all guns away. Ditto Feinstein who made that comment over 20 years ago. Even Ronald Reagan wanted to ban assault weapons, so your case holds no water.

Swing and a miss...


So instead of watching an actual video of Jan Schakowsky actually saying she is against handguns you decided to ignore it because of who posted it.

So instead of listening to Feinstein say if she got 51 votes she would ban ALL guns you deflect to Reagan and assault weapons.

This is why nobody takes you seriously here. You are a shill for the Far Left and just want to recite the MSNBC stuff.

It is also why the fringe left loses elections. More educated voters actually listen to what they say and not what the MSM tells them to do. You would be better served to do the same.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
seb146
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:56 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Instead of reading your biased source, I went ahead and googled "Jan Schakowsky handgun" and, not surprisingly, all I found were extremist right wing sites claiming her stand behind banning assault weapons is just a front for taking all guns away. Ditto Feinstein who made that comment over 20 years ago. Even Ronald Reagan wanted to ban assault weapons, so your case holds no water.

Swing and a miss...


So instead of watching an actual video of Jan Schakowsky actually saying she is against handguns you decided to ignore it because of who posted it.


Ah, but you see, my friend, I did not ignore it. I used a search engine and clicked on links and read articles.

Did you ever see the episode of The Simpsons where the babysitter accused Homer of sexual assault? I would rather do my own research, thank you very much.

As far as your name calling rant, you are simply a shill for the righties, quoting Fox "news" word for word. That is why no one takes you seriously and why I do my own research instead of blindly clicking links you demand I do. Just because you say it is true does not mean it is.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
11725Flyer
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:32 pm

I go to LAS 2-3 times a year. I'll still travel there, but I look forward to upgraded security at the hotels and casinos. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone who has been so deeply affected by the tragedy.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:47 pm

seb146 wrote:
Instead of reading your biased source, ...


Two posts later:

seb146 wrote:
The link and site I am posting is patently biased, ...


This is just too good. And you wonder you can't have an honest conversation? Look in the mirror.
 
Misterbrown
Posts: 18
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:13 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
This is just too good. And you wonder you can't have an honest conversation? Look in the mirror.

The difference is that Seb acknowledged that the link he provided was obviously slanted. Yet as he indicated, the event was real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmingto ... on_of_1898
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:15 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Instead of reading your biased source, ...


Two posts later:

seb146 wrote:
The link and site I am posting is patently biased, ...


This is just too good. And you wonder you can't have an honest conversation? Look in the mirror.


Are you any closer to finding a source that shows more mass shootings are prevented by people with guns than mass shootings that are not?
 
windy95
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:33 pm

Tugger wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Because it keeps the ones who tend to be honest to stay honest. Outlaws and other scumbags don't care about laws.Just like locking your front door it's a deterrent albeit a small one but of someone wants in your house they are coming in. Provided there isn't an armed homeowner then they may not get far.


Laws work because the public in general supports them and assists in enforcing them (primarily by providing information).

The truth is most people follow the law, even bad people follow laws to avoid too much notice (maybe obey the speed limits or pay taxes or make sure their kids go to school), just making up in their heads why they don't need to follow whatever law is in their way. With laws on books, since most people follow them, law enforcement can concentrate on the smaller subset of people who are breaking the law and also receive input from the law abiding public to find those breaking the law.

It appears there are two responses that are acceptable to people against controls on guns and their use and ownership:
1.) More guns would have prevented the situation. (For Sandyhook the idea is that if the teachers or a guard were present they would have stopped the attack).

And in situations where #1 can't/doesn't apply: 2.) More/changing laws would not help because a. there are enough laws, b. people will just ignore the laws, c. it means only bad people would have guns.

But as I note above laws do work in general.


Tugg


So laws work in general is your answer on gun control? How are the laws stopping drunk driving working? 10,265 estimated deaths by DUI in 2015. How about illegal drugs? over 40,000 deaths in 2015? Murder you might ask and last time I looked it was illegal 15,696 murders in 2015. So do these laws really work in General?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:51 pm

windy95 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Because it keeps the ones who tend to be honest to stay honest. Outlaws and other scumbags don't care about laws.Just like locking your front door it's a deterrent albeit a small one but of someone wants in your house they are coming in. Provided there isn't an armed homeowner then they may not get far.


Laws work because the public in general supports them and assists in enforcing them (primarily by providing information).

The truth is most people follow the law, even bad people follow laws to avoid too much notice (maybe obey the speed limits or pay taxes or make sure their kids go to school), just making up in their heads why they don't need to follow whatever law is in their way. With laws on books, since most people follow them, law enforcement can concentrate on the smaller subset of people who are breaking the law and also receive input from the law abiding public to find those breaking the law.

It appears there are two responses that are acceptable to people against controls on guns and their use and ownership:
1.) More guns would have prevented the situation. (For Sandyhook the idea is that if the teachers or a guard were present they would have stopped the attack).

And in situations where #1 can't/doesn't apply: 2.) More/changing laws would not help because a. there are enough laws, b. people will just ignore the laws, c. it means only bad people would have guns.

But as I note above laws do work in general.


Tugg


So laws work in general is your answer on gun control? How are the laws stopping drunk driving working? 10,265 estimated deaths by DUI in 2015. How about illegal drugs? over 40,000 deaths in 2015? Murder you might ask and last time I looked it was illegal 15,696 murders in 2015. So do these laws really work in General?


It's virtually impossible to stop every single crime with laws and law enforcement, but the laws are still in place as they reduce the crimes. Are you suggesting that laws should be scrapped if they don't reduce crimes to zero? In that case why bother making murder, theft, rape and such illegal?
 
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OA412
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:02 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Instead of reading your biased source, ...


Two posts later:

seb146 wrote:
The link and site I am posting is patently biased, ...


This is just too good. And you wonder you can't have an honest conversation? Look in the mirror.

Please don't deliberately misquote people like that. The user acknowledged he was posting to a biased site, but that the event discussed on that site (an event which actually occurred) is worthy of discussion.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:00 am

Misterbrown wrote:
The difference is that Seb acknowledged that the link he provided was obviously slanted. Yet as he indicated, the event was real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmingto ... on_of_1898


OA412 wrote:
Please don't deliberately misquote people like that. The user acknowledged he was posting to a biased site, but that the event discussed on that site (an event which actually occurred) is worthy of discussion.

Clearly you can't see the blatant double standard. seb won't read someone else's "biased" link, but then we're supposed to read seb's "biased" link. Come on. That's a prime reason there isn't honest conversations.

And no, that's not misquoting, OA412. That's the direct words from another poster pointing out hypocrisy. You should know that.

MrHMSH wrote:
Are you any closer to finding a source that shows more mass shootings are prevented by people with guns than mass shootings that are not?


That's not the criteria. And I'll nudge you in the same direction as before. When do most mass killings stop?
 
Misterbrown
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:14 am

Some times it's hard to know if someone is stupid or just trying to come off that way.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Shooting at Las Vegas Casino

Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:23 am

MSPNWA wrote:
And no, that's not misquoting, OA412. That's the direct words from another poster pointing out hypocrisy. You should know that.


It is pretty funny that you are unable to spot the difference between the two.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
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