MSPNWA wrote:

That's not the criteria. And I'll nudge you in the same direction as before. When do most mass killings stop?

Sometimes mass shootings are stopped by people with guns, but usually the police, not civilians. You've not linked anything that suggests mass shootings are stopped by civilians with guns very often.

And stopping people who have gone on mass shootings is kind of shutting the door after the horse has bolted anyway, which really doesn't suggest it's a good method of stopping or preventing mass shootings.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2 ... ir-attacks

This article claims:

Mass shooters died in 48 percent of the attacks studied, 38 percent by their own hand and the remaining by "suicide by cop"--using weapons to intentionally provoke police, who are trained to shoot and kill in life-threatening situations.

No mention of civilians, which means either they couldn't find any or they just were not large enough in number to influence statistics.

So now it's your turn: can you supply any statistics on how many mass shootings are stopped and/or prevented by the civilian population with guns?

NIKV69 Your dishonesty is unveiled:

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

That is a lie and you know it. The only people who keep this lie up are right wing media outlets who hand feed it to right wing zombies who believe everything they are told period. Who and when as any "far left" politician recently said they want to ban ALL guns? Names and dates, please.

Jan Schakowsky, Feb 2013 "I'm against handguns"
Dianne Feinstein, 1995 "If I could have got 51 votes for an outright ban, picking up every one of them. Mr and Mrs America turn them all in"

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/gun-laws/ ... otherwise/

Watch the videos and listen to what they say. Don't attack the source.

You have to stop blaming the media and hiding behind your propaganda that we are brainwashed. It's crap. The fringe left wants no guns, 60% tax rate on the rich and for us to be like Europe. I just thank God people speak at the voting booth and keep this far left Zealots in the minority.

NIKV69 wrote:

So instead of listening to Feinstein say if she got 51 votes she would ban ALL guns you deflect to Reagan and assault weapons.

Your whole rant is just so much BS.

NRA's Chris Cox falsely says Dianne Feinstein wanted to take 'all of your guns

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ein-wante/

And Jan Schakowsky represents Chicago's north side, if she wasn't advocating the elimination of handguns she would be guilty of dereliction of duty.

MSPNWA wrote:

Misterbrown wrote:

The difference is that Seb acknowledged that the link he provided was obviously slanted. Yet as he indicated, the event was real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmingto ... on_of_1898

OA412 wrote:

Please don't deliberately misquote people like that. The user acknowledged he was posting to a biased site, but that the event discussed on that site (an event which actually occurred) is worthy of discussion.

Clearly you can't see the blatant double standard. seb won't read someone else's "biased" link, but then we're supposed to read seb's "biased" link. Come on. That's a prime reason there isn't honest conversations.

And no, that's not misquoting, OA412. That's the direct words from another poster pointing out hypocrisy. You should know that.

MrHMSH wrote:

Are you any closer to finding a source that shows more mass shootings are prevented by people with guns than mass shootings that are not?

That's not the criteria. And I'll nudge you in the same direction as before. When do most mass killings stop?

Well, shoot... Next time I will post Breitbart's fantasy quotes instead of actual historical facts. You righties demand links and when they are posted, the site is awful so no use reading the story.

How about you righties and snowflakes comment on the events that happened. I guess I could post the Wounded Knee massacre, the worst attack in American history, but that would be ignored because of the site I use.....

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-veg ... story.html

October 9, 2017

Police have dramatically changed their account of how the Las Vegas massacre began on Sunday, Oct. 1, revealing Monday, October 9th that the gunman shot a hotel security guard six minutes before opening fire on a country music concert — raising new questions about why police weren’t able to pinpoint the gunman’s location sooner.

Officials had previously said in a Press Conference that gunman Stephen Paddock, 64, of Mesquite, Nev., shot Mandalay Bay security guard Jesus Campos after Paddock had unleashed his deadly volley at the Route 91 Harvest Festival, an assault that began at 10:05 p.m. and left 58 people dead, with hundreds more injured.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-vegas-shooting-20171009-story.html

October 9, 2017

Police have dramatically changed their account of how the Las Vegas massacre began on Sunday, Oct. 1, revealing Monday, October 9th that the gunman shot a hotel security guard six minutes before opening fire on a country music concert — raising new questions about why police weren’t able to pinpoint the gunman’s location sooner.

Officials had previously said in a Press Conference that gunman Stephen Paddock, 64, of Mesquite, Nev., shot Mandalay Bay security guard Jesus Campos after Paddock had unleashed his deadly volley at the Route 91 Harvest Festival, an assault that began at 10:05 p.m. and left 58 people dead, with hundreds more injured.

It took the police a whole week to find out this simple fact? Amazing.

This Trip Advisor Fire Exit plaque photo from one of the rooms in the hotel shows how close to the shooter's room that anyone would be if they accessed the stairwell in that "arm" of the hotel. Was the stairwell door that Campos found jammed in the section of the "arm" that the shooter was in? I don't know.

As best as I can tell the shooter had a room in the North arm on the East side.

We're all waiting for a detailed timeline from Campos, and the engineer, and to put all of that together to try and get a realistic timeline.

BTY, the room outline drawings of each arm are generic, in that each hallway door that faced each other was recessed from the hallway. So that gives you cover from some crazy person at the end of the hallway shooting down the hallway.

(Levels 40-42 (numbered as floors 60–62) are designed as penthouse suites.)

MSPNWA wrote:

Clearly you can't see the blatant double standard. seb won't read someone else's "biased" link, but then we're supposed to read seb's "biased" link. Come on. That's a prime reason there isn't honest conversations.

And no, that's not misquoting, OA412. That's the direct words from another poster pointing out hypocrisy. You should know that.

OK let's try this again and make it a teachable moment for everyone in the thread. DO NOT quote just one half of someone's sentence because it fits the agenda you're trying to push, while not quoting the remainder which contains the qualifier explaining why the admittedly biased link is being offered. That is misquoting. Everyone here is reminded to engage openly and honestly in the discussion.

IMO the mayor should immediately fire the police chief and if the mayor doesn't, the people should demand the mayor's removal.

Not having an accurate timeline ten days later is beyond incompetent. There are police radio transmissions, people's cellphone/videos, the hotel log, the hotel cameras and more to look back on. Somebody's got to go over this.

salttee wrote:

IMO the mayor should immediately fire the police chief and if the mayor doesn't, the people should demand the mayor's removal.

Not having an accurate timeline ten days later is beyond incompetent. There are police radio transmissions, people's cellphone/videos, the hotel log, the hotel cameras and more to look back on. Somebody's got to go over this.

You can check the hotel cameras with enough footage reference points to figure out exactly how many minutes the date stamp is off. Date stamps on security cameras where I used to work were never exact. They were usually 8-12 minutes off from the actual time.

I would hope the cops have DVR copies of all cameras pertinent with say 30 minutes on either side of times wanted.

tommy1808 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

If a "Christian" baker is endorsing a "lifestyle" for baking a wedding cake for gays, then a "Christian" gun store owner endorses murder for selling weapons to a terrorist.

Well, you are talking about the same people that have no problem of making other constitutional rights, like having an abortion, almost inaccessible, so logic won´t help.

I am for abortion (including post-birth abortions as well up to the age of 70) but I am curious, where in the constitution does it say abortion is a right?

DIRECTFLT wrote:

You can check the hotel cameras with enough footage reference points to figure out exactly how many minutes the date stamp is off. Date stamps on security cameras where I used to work were never exact. They were usually 8-12 minutes off from the actual time.

I would hope the cops have DVR copies of all cameras pertinent with say 30 minutes on either side of times wanted.

Also, there is the fact that it took the LVPD an hour and a half to enter the room.
I get the idea that the only thing the LVPD is good for is shaking down hookers.

Super80Fan wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

If a "Christian" baker is endorsing a "lifestyle" for baking a wedding cake for gays, then a "Christian" gun store owner endorses murder for selling weapons to a terrorist.

Well, you are talking about the same people that have no problem of making other constitutional rights, like having an abortion, almost inaccessible, so logic won´t help.

I am for abortion (including post-birth abortions as well up to the age of 70) but I am curious, where in the constitution does it say abortion is a right?

Right next to the law demanding everyone carry an AR-15.

Seriously, I think that comes under the Fourth Amendment which reads, in part:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."

Righties also use religion as the reason we can not have abortions in this country, but, also, there is separation of church and state.

seb146 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Well, you are talking about the same people that have no problem of making other constitutional rights, like having an abortion, almost inaccessible, so logic won´t help.

I am for abortion (including post-birth abortions as well up to the age of 70) but I am curious, where in the constitution does it say abortion is a right?

Right next to the law demanding everyone carry an AR-15.

Seriously, I think that comes under the Fourth Amendment which reads, in part:.

There should be supreme Court rulings that lay out in derail why it is a right.

Best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

I am for abortion (including post-birth abortions as well up to the age of 70) but I am curious, where in the constitution does it say abortion is a right?

Right next to the law demanding everyone carry an AR-15.

Seriously, I think that comes under the Fourth Amendment which reads, in part:.

There should be supreme Court rulings that lay out in derail why it is a right.

Best regards
Thomas

Roe v. Wade

salttee wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

You can check the hotel cameras with enough footage reference points to figure out exactly how many minutes the date stamp is off. Date stamps on security cameras where I used to work were never exact. They were usually 8-12 minutes off from the actual time.

I would hope the cops have DVR copies of all cameras pertinent with say 30 minutes on either side of times wanted.

Also, there is the fact that it took the LVPD an hour and a half to enter the room.
I get the idea that the only thing the LVPD is good for is shaking down hookers.

Hang on a minute, Paddock started shooting at 10:05pm, police arrived at his room at 10:17pm, by which time he had stopped shooting, I can say with 100% certainty, if he had been shooting when metro arrived they would have gone through the door, but with no shots being fired why risk going through until SWAT arrives with the right gear ?

Metro has issues for sure, but I don't think this is one of them.

I have heard people asking why it took them 18 minutes to get to the room....Has anyone been in Mandalay ? getting anywhere in 18 minutes is pretty darn good.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

You can check the hotel cameras with enough footage reference points to figure out exactly how many minutes the date stamp is off. Date stamps on security cameras where I used to work were never exact. They were usually 8-12 minutes off from the actual time.

I would hope the cops have DVR copies of all cameras pertinent with say 30 minutes on either side of times wanted.

I'm not going to get into specifics on here regarding the actual systems used as we all use pretty much the same systems, but the date/time stamp should be accurate to seconds, not minutes.

The big problem is the amount of footage that is actually being stored and has to be reviewed, for somewhere like Mandalay there is around 4000 cameras, you can probably discount half of those straight away, but even in the elevator lobby to the hallway there is probably 5 cameras, the amount of video stored by a modern casino is huge.

DDR wrote:

The guns are out there, now how do you stop the bad people from using them?

Just make a long list of things that are different (better) in countries without any pronounced shooting issues.

you'd probably start with
* less guns available.
but also:
* Health Care even when you are out of a job
* Sane pension plans that are not available for plundering
* Some security from going into living standards freefall
* Less of a trend to turn absolutely everything into no holds barred competition
....
* less silicone implants.
( not just a joke: be what you are and not what you would like to appear as.)

and think about going for some achievements in that range.

At least to the public, sadly there seems to be no real reason for this shooting but in the shooters mind. There are clues in his lifestyle and history, that of his father (a bank robber) that might give us some idea but it isn't enough.
There has been a lot of talk about his ability to get so many guns, from the 'banners' to 2nd Amendment absolutists. Except for some discussion in some states and Federal level as to banning currently legal 'bump stocks' and other modifications to make certain guns more deadly, there is none about restricting access to purchasing or owning civilianized military guns.
Time lines of what happened when are in dispute. Of course for many of us here as to aircraft crashes and incidents we know that early investigations are riddled with inaccuracies.
The comments and visit of President Trump bordered on the insulting to the victims. The VP was far better, participating in religious prayer services and with appropriate comments.
There are some good things in the midst of the terror of it. There are the super efforts of police, people in general and at the hospitals that saved lives. Millions have been raised in funds to help victims. One company Zappos, the online shoe retailer based in LV.has offered to pay and has paid for funeral expenses for those killed and contribute to funds for survivors expenses. Lessons will be learned on how police, people in general, hotel owners and others to try to reduce the risk of such another event like this.
Still 58 people are dead, almost 500 injured and 1000's mentally haunted for the rest of their lives with being almost dead or wounded.

jetwet1 wrote:

salttee wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

You can check the hotel cameras with enough footage reference points to figure out exactly how many minutes the date stamp is off. Date stamps on security cameras where I used to work were never exact. They were usually 8-12 minutes off from the actual time.

I would hope the cops have DVR copies of all cameras pertinent with say 30 minutes on either side of times wanted.

Also, there is the fact that it took the LVPD an hour and a half to enter the room.
I get the idea that the only thing the LVPD is good for is shaking down hookers.

Hang on a minute, Paddock started shooting at 10:05pm, police arrived at his room at 10:17pm, by which time he had stopped shooting, I can say with 100% certainty, if he had been shooting when metro arrived they would have gone through the door, but with no shots being fired why risk going through until SWAT arrives with the right gear ?

Metro has issues for sure, but I don't think this is one of them.

I have heard people asking why it took them 18 minutes to get to the room....Has anyone been in Mandalay ? getting anywhere in 18 minutes is pretty darn good.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

You can check the hotel cameras with enough footage reference points to figure out exactly how many minutes the date stamp is off. Date stamps on security cameras where I used to work were never exact. They were usually 8-12 minutes off from the actual time.

I would hope the cops have DVR copies of all cameras pertinent with say 30 minutes on either side of times wanted.

I'm not going to get into specifics on here regarding the actual systems used as we all use pretty much the same systems, but the date/time stamp should be accurate to seconds, not minutes.

The big problem is the amount of footage that is actually being stored and has to be reviewed, for somewhere like Mandalay there is around 4000 cameras, you can probably discount half of those straight away, but even in the elevator lobby to the hallway there is probably 5 cameras, the amount of video stored by a modern casino is huge.

The seconds vs. minutes difference may apply to modern all digital camera recorders.

But the 12-15 year DVR camera systems that are in use in many office buildings are a fact.

It just depends on Building ownership/management as to whether they want to have up-to-date camera security systems in their operating budget.

The Al-Qaeda affiliated Al-Shabab in Somalia has reminded all of us what "Big League" Islamic Terrorism look like.

Death toll rises to 276 in Somalia truck bomb attack

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 765819001/

The death toll from the single deadliest attack in Somalia's history rose to 276 Sunday as emergency workers feverishly dug through the rubble of a Mogadishu bomb blast that collapsed buildings and set nearby cars ablaze.

About 300 people were injured when the truck explosion rocked a crowded shopping district Saturday.

As if you care about Somalis.

salttee wrote:

As if you care about Somalis.

Well, Somalies are more free than Americans, their right to bear arms is less restricted than those of the poor, suppressed US citizens.

While this tragedy is sad, access to explosives is a human right to defend one self, ones religious freedom or against general tyranny, this is just the price of freedom.

Also, in Somalia no baker is forced to make cake for a gay wedding. Somalia is so much better than the United States.

best regards
Thomas

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

windy95 wrote:

So laws work in general is your answer on gun control? How are the laws stopping drunk driving working? 10,265 estimated deaths by DUI in 2015. How about illegal drugs? over 40,000 deaths in 2015? Murder you might ask and last time I looked it was illegal 15,696 murders in 2015. So do these laws really work in General?

So unless you can completely eradicate drugs, there's no point in having drug laws. Is that what you're saying?

windy95 wrote:

How are the laws stopping drunk driving working? 10,265 estimated deaths by DUI in 2015.

You must be pretty young. You don't remember the carnage that used to be. I can't find year by year numbers for the period before about 1970 when the cops began to crack down, but I did find a source that shows that in 1982 there were 26,173 DUI related fatalities. And there were almost 100 million fewer people in the US back then.
http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-drivi ... stics.html

Mandalay Bay security officer Jesus Campos and building engineer Stephen Schuck give interview on The Ellen Degeneres Show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7gj1FoRIfE

‘Ellen’ producers mum on how they landed Jesus Campos interview
https://www.reviewjournal.com/entertainment/tv/ellen-producers-mum-on-how-they-landed-jesus-campos-interview/


Vegas security guard was pressured to give interview to Ellen
http://nypost.com/2017/10/19/vegas-security-guard-was-pressured-to-give-interview-to-ellen/


Mandalay Bay owner insisted security guard Jesus Campos appear ONLY on Ellen and not be grilled by TV hardhitters fearing his answers to timeline questions could result in massive lawsuits from victims of the massacre
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4996918/Hotel-insisted-Jesus-Campos-appear-Ellen-fearing-lawsuites.html

MGM is worried that families of the 58 people murdered as well as many of the 546 injured in the Mandalay Bay massacre will launch lawsuits potentially worth billions of dollars against the company, sources tell DailyMail.com.

‘MGM was behind the decision to call off all the interviews and did a deal with Ellen, knowing she would not play hardball on the timeline as long as she had the exclusive,’ a TV insider told DailyMail.com.

Fish smells.

Interesting that Stephen Paddock was a licensed pilot, and owned at least two private planes, one of which was a 2004 Cirrus SR20 (the first year they made the first small craft with flat panel avionics. These things run like $300K, and are used as trainers for the US Air Force. Paddock obtained his in 2006, but apparently eventually sold it. Finally it wound up at "Valant LLC" in Roanoke, Virginia. The last time it apparently flew was April 25, 2014 on a flight from DAY to ROA.

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N5343M

Here is where it gets weird: there is a "Valant Associates LLC" that is a spookish contractor for the US intelligence community and the Department of Defense. http://www.volant-associates.com/experience/ Note that they started in 2006. Coincidence?

Volant Associates has been providing a wide range of technical and strategic services to the U.S. Defense and Intelligence communities since 2006. But Volant managers and associates have been providing those services to the same communities far longer. Indeed, the experience and expertise of outstanding leaders are what we bring to contractors and government organizations.

Volant’s assignments have included planning, specifying, contracting, acquiring, engineering and operating a range of IT and other defense- and intelligence-related systems for deployment at the Pentagon, elsewhere in the U.S., and abroad. Other assignments have involved broader strategic consultation services, drawing on our deep knowledge of the military and intelligence communities, their missions, their management, and their modes of operation.

We will be happy to meet with representatives of government organizations and/or private contractors to review in more detail our capabilities for assignments to protect the nation’s interests.

You gotta wonder where Paddock really got all his money. I know he sold real estate, but before he was a letter carrier and an IRS agent. Not exactly lucrative careers that would stake his initial purchases. Note that the timing of the SR20 purchase and retirement pretty much coincides with the so-called Fast & Furious gun running program. Makes you wonder if he was some sort of smuggler, or possibly even working for Volant Associates LLC.

I see from the wikipedia that the listed cruising speed of the SR20 is 178 mph, but on the last flight it was averaging over 200 mph for most of the flight. Do you think that is just a tail wind, or is it a possible indication that the SR20 was somehow souped up?

Picture of Paddock's SR20 here: https://i.imgur.com/SohMuS7.png I wonder if that his him flying it....

It looks like you're on to something. I also wondered where he got his stake in real estate to own multimillion dollar apartment buildings. Now that you remind me that he was a letter carrier and an entry level IRS agent that makes the question stand out even more. I also never could quite swallow the "professional gambler" bit. A person can get lucky at the casinos, maybe even have a streak, but over the long term the house always wins. And if you get too good at counting cards they ban you.

I hope an investigative journalist with resources follows this story up.

According to the wikipedia article, "he was a federal auditor for one year, in 1985, focusing on defense contractors. Towards the end of the 1980s, Paddock worked for three years as an internal auditor for a company that later merged to form Lockheed Martin.[16] His work career after this period is not entirely clear. He is known to have run a real-estate business with his brother Eric."

This is interesting: during those years as an auditor and proto-LockMart, he very well could have made connections that led to some form of clandestine work.....

Question: is it usual for the FAA to reuse "N" numbers? I see there was another N5343M (a Cessna 152) that was "deregistered" in 2001--three years before Paddock's plane was built. http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry ... txt=N5343M But if the number was reused, then if there are faa records that go back to 2001, then why not records for the N5343M that go back to 2006-2013?

Indeed, there is apparently no record at faa.gov for either Stephen Paddock or the Cirrus SR20. There are some websites that are saying that the data was deleted after the massacre; if so, that's evidence of a coverup. If not, that's evidence that Paddock was involved in something clandestine that the FAA had to not publish data re "his" airplane....

EDIT: I did an N number availability search at faa.gov, for the range between N5342M & N5344M: it turns out that N5342M is now available, again.



EDIT2: Independent confirmation that there was indeed a Cirrus SR20 with N5342M as its tail number. It looks like the record dates back to December 2010, so probably not recently added. http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N5343M.html



I'm making screenshots of this stuff in case it disappears like the faa data did....

EDIT 3 What's the deal with the "Mode S" code? I see the Cessna and the Cirrus both have the same "Mode S" code (A6C216) as well as the same tail number.

WarrenPlatts wrote:

This is interesting: during those years as an auditor and proto-LockMart, he very well could have made connections that led to some form of clandestine work.....

And after his time at Lockheed or MM he ddn't need a real job anymore.

Reusing tail numbers is normal, there is a limited amount of numbers available.

Hmmm.... The same airplane is actually listed at faa.gov, but the tail number has changed to N145AW. Same serial number 1402, so same plane, a 2004 Cirrus SR20. Still owned by Valant LLC. They still fly it, rather often for short trips about every other week.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry ... rtxt=145AW

Just an interesting finding.

As I have mentioned on here before, a group of us (people who started out together and now are in casino management in one form or another) get together a couple of times a month for breakfast. The conversations normally cover everything from how the kids are doing in school to Presidential elections (those mostly revolve around one of the guys who works at the Venetian and his big boss).

But of course for the last couple of breakfasts the Oct 1st shootings have been the main topic and how it has affected our operations.

It seems that Strip properties are still suffering from the shootings and while people are still coming to Vegas, more and more are staying off strip. How long this will last I don't know, but there should be some good deals out there if you look hard enough.