• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5498
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:14 am

Yes, kneeling as a sign of protest. They took a gesture that was meant to increase awareness of a perceived society wide problem and used it to express their dislike of a person. Typical behaviour of the alt left, who always feel the need to be part of every protest and use it for their political gains.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:36 am

seahawk wrote:
Yes, kneeling as a sign of protest. They took a gesture that was meant to increase awareness of a perceived society wide problem and used it to express their dislike of a person. .


considering that Trump is a driving force being those problems and is not just a person, but a government function, mixing those two is well justified, unless Trump changes his tone or steps down.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
yoni
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:40 am

NoTime wrote:
jetero wrote:
NoTime wrote:
You might find a year in which the numbers change slightly, but the fact remains that the black community (which is roughly 13 percent of the US population) are responsible for nearly 50% of the murders in our country each year.


That is NOT a fact, and if you don't see why it is not, then I don't know what to tell you. Murderers are responsible for murders, not communities. If you want to cite demographics, well at least remove your judgment and your indictment of an entire race.


OK, then. How about this - "African Americans, which make up roughly 13 percent of the US population, are responsible for nearly 50% of the murders in our country each year." Is that better? Does it make you feel better if you split hairs? Regardless, since my point was that culture is to blame, I think using the phrase "black community" is just as accurate... but whatever floats your boat.


There is an interesting piece on NPR on the heightened police in communities of color and the consequences on Black youth: http://www.npr.org/2017/09/27/551864016/fewer-youths-incarcerated-but-gap-between-blacks-and-whites-worsens

If you really want to interpret stats, you need to take into consideration how the context influences these stats. Maybe that's not you intention, especially if you dislike Black folks that much.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5498
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:03 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Yes, kneeling as a sign of protest. They took a gesture that was meant to increase awareness of a perceived society wide problem and used it to express their dislike of a person. .


considering that Trump is a driving force being those problems and is not just a person, but a government function, mixing those two is well justified, unless Trump changes his tone or steps down.

best regards
Thomas


I think it does the original meaning no justice, when you use the gesture in a pure anti-Trump meaning.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:30 am

seb146 wrote:
So, you still defend killing unarmed minorities? Unarmed children? Just because they "seemed" like a threat? How many white kids have been gunned down for no reason because an officer "seemed" to be threatened? How many cops are able to go back to their jobs after gunning down unarmed minorities and kids?

Excellent questions! According to the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... ings-2016/). These are the actual statistics of the numbers of people killed by police in 2016:
Total police fatalities in the US in 2016: 963
Total White/Hispanic: 626 (65%)
Total Black: 233 (24%)

Total unarmed people killed by police in 2016: 48
Total White/Hispanic unarmed killed: 30
Total Black unarmed killed: 17

Total unarmed children killed by police in 2016: 3
Total White/Hispanic unarmed children: 2
Total Black unarmed children 1

When I read your post and decided to educate myself, I expected to be totally shocked by the massive numbers of unarmed black people that the police are hunting down and killing. It turns out that there were 17, of which one was a child. Many of these deaths do seem unjustifiable and tragic, and should be absolutely be investigated, but this number does not represent the racist threat that has been claimed. I have to be honest, I expected a lot more based on the media and postings here.

So, based on the facts as I know them from the source, here are my answers to your questions:
So, you still defend killing unarmed minorities? NO!
Unarmed children? NO!
Just because they "seemed" like a threat? NO!
How many white kids have been gunned down for no reason because an officer "seemed" to be threatened? (Assuming that no reason means they are unarmed) 2 in 2016 along with one black child.
Their names are:
    Jose Raul Cruz, an unarmed 16-year-old Hispanic male, was shot on March 13, 2016, in Addison, Tex. An off-duty Farmers Branch officer witnessed the attempted burglary of a vehicle and chased the suspects as they fled in a car. Cruz was shot and killed by the officer. The officer, Ken Johnson, who is black, has been arrested and will be tried for murder (http://www.fox4news.com/news/former-far ... eens-death.
    David Joseph, an unarmed 17-year-old black male, was shot on Feb. 8, 2016, in Austin, Tex. Austin police were responding to reports of an erratic, aggressive person. Joseph, who was naked, rushed toward the officer. Officer Geoffrey Freeman was fired after this shooting. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2572693
    Ciara Meyer, an unarmed 12-year-old white female, was shot on Jan. 11, 2016, in an apartment in Penn Township, Pa. A Pennsylvania constable was serving Meyer's father with an eviction notice. Meyer's father pointed a rifle at the constable, who opened fire. The bullet traveled through the father's arm, striking Ciara. It doesn't seem that the officer was charged.

How many cops are able to go back to their jobs after gunning down unarmed minorities and kids? 13 of the 19 fatal encounters that you have asked about resulted in the officers being cleared in 2016

This is too many deaths, but it is not the bloodthirsty white supremacist existential threat that all of you and the NFL are making it out to be. In fact, several of the officers involved in these encounters are black.

It seems to me that the issue of fatalities of children in the in the US foster care and child protective services system would be a more effective use of the NFL platform than these protests, and they should do it like they do the breast cancer awareness campaigns. In 2015 alone over 100 children were killed while being tracked or looked after by the various state and local governments (https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/f ... cm2015.pdf). About 12% of those being black children. On top of that, according to this source: http://americanspcc.org/child-abuse-statistics/, around 1700 children are murdered as a result of abuse in this country, and over 7.2 MILLION children suffer some kind of abuse. These are really big and devastating numbers.

The argument can be made that more unarmed black children die while being looked after by child protective services in the US than are killed by police. In fact, the argument could be made that more children died in 2016 while being looked after by CPS in the US than the total number of unarmed people killed by police.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:42 am

socalgeo wrote:
13 of the 19 fatal encounters that you have asked about resulted in the officers being cleared in 2016.


What is the racial breakdown of those officers, and how to killings on unarmed white people fare in comparison?

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:53 am

tommy1808 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
13 of the 19 fatal encounters that you have asked about resulted in the officers being cleared in 2016.


What is the racial breakdown of those officers, and how to killings on unarmed white people fare in comparison?

best regards
Thomas


Here's the link. Do your own research and analysis. I look forward to your presentation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... ings-2016/
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 14689
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:56 am

Those that think taking a knee is insulting to the flag, the anthem or the military probably believe Rosa Parks was protesting about public transportation.

Image

Not sure if this BBC video is available outside the UK, but worth a watch if it is.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/american-football/41412767
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:34 am

socalgeo wrote:
Here's the link. Do your own research and analysis. I look forward to your presentation.


well, good to know that you failed to test alternative hypothesis, wich is a dead give away that you are not even interested in the real facts and only pick those that fit your agenda. That basically makes you an ID proponent, only in terms of politics.

Right from the bat your analysis doesn´t hold water, since the officer doing the shooting is identified in only 7% of all African Americans being shot, but for 14% of White victims. That is already quite interesting.

Since the WP Database isn´t satisfying the criteria for a proper analysis, i looked elsewhere.

The conviction rate for cops being indicted for unlawfully killing a black person is only 12%, while for cops over all for on duty shooting is 16%. Since one quarter of the victims is black, you get a 12% conviction rate for killing a black person, and a 17% conviction rate for shooting a non-back person. If you think that doesn´t show a racial bias in who gets convicted for what, please do calculate the confidence interval and let me know.

Data used from:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... shootings/
http://data.fatalencounters.org/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng- ... s-database
https://www.policemisconduct.net/ and
http://www.newsweek.com/racial-makeup-p ... nts-331130

I think racial bias is already extremely evident by the simple fact that a consistent set of data is not to be had. Seems like some simply don´t care.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 5728
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:51 am

seb146 wrote:
BLM is too violent and taking a knee is disrespectful and hateful, so how are minorities supposed to protest?

They're not.

Image
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:41 pm

"Deshaun Watson gives first game check to Texans cafeteria workers who lost everything to Harvey"

http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/arti ... ctrlreccos

Let's just hope this "son of a b*tch" doesn't get any ideas and kneel this Sunday.
Last edited by jetero on Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:44 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
Here's the link. Do your own research and analysis. I look forward to your presentation.


well, good to know that you failed to test alternative hypothesis, wich is a dead give away that you are not even interested in the real facts and only pick those that fit your agenda. That basically makes you an ID proponent, only in terms of politics.

Right from the bat your analysis doesn´t hold water, since the officer doing the shooting is identified in only 7% of all African Americans being shot, but for 14% of White victims. That is already quite interesting.

Since the WP Database isn´t satisfying the criteria for a proper analysis, i looked elsewhere.

The conviction rate for cops being indicted for unlawfully killing a black person is only 12%, while for cops over all for on duty shooting is 16%. Since one quarter of the victims is black, you get a 12% conviction rate for killing a black person, and a 17% conviction rate for shooting a non-back person. If you think that doesn´t show a racial bias in who gets convicted for what, please do calculate the confidence interval and let me know.

Data used from:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... shootings/
http://data.fatalencounters.org/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng- ... s-database
https://www.policemisconduct.net/ and
http://www.newsweek.com/racial-makeup-p ... nts-331130

I think racial bias is already extremely evident by the simple fact that a consistent set of data is not to be had. Seems like some simply don´t care.

best regards
Thomas


Determining any trend or bias about racial injustice from a sample size of 48 deaths out of the US population of 320 million is impossible. A ridiculous attempt actually. This number is infinitesimally small compared to the population.

Less than 1/2 of these deaths were black (17). This is a made up non-issue.

But please continue to tie yourself in knots in order to keep your identity politics narrative alive.

Btw - If you do a google search of every unarmed black person who was killed you will find that the officer was identified the vast majority of the time, contradicting the WaPo database claim that the officers were not identified.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:49 pm

socalgeo wrote:
Determining any trend or bias about racial injustice from a sample size of 48 deaths out of the US population of 320 million is impossible. A ridiculous attempt actually. This number is infinitesimally small compared to the population.


What is the confidence interval? Sample size is charged police officers, population size doesn´t even play into it.

This is a made up non-issue.


Please do show your evidence that this difference in conviction rate does not extend into other areas of the Police/Population interaction.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:10 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
Determining any trend or bias about racial injustice from a sample size of 48 deaths out of the US population of 320 million is impossible. A ridiculous attempt actually. This number is infinitesimally small compared to the population.


What is the confidence interval? Sample size is charged police officers, population size doesn´t even play into it.

This is a made up non-issue.


Please do show your evidence that this difference in conviction rate does not extend into other areas of the Police/Population interaction.

best regards
Thomas

Again, do your own research. These NFL players are on the record saying that this is about police killing "an incredible number of unarmed black people".

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/o ... tests.html

17 unarmed black people being killed by police is tragic and sad, but far from "an incredible number"

There are other more worthy causes for these people to champion as I've mentioned in a previous post.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:25 pm

socalgeo wrote:

There are other more worthy causes for these people to champion as I've mentioned in a previous post.


Paternalistic much?

Would you mind sending me a complete list of what I can and cannot protest, Master SCG?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6391
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:39 pm

socalgeo wrote:
Again, do your own research.


I did and I am waiting for your refutation.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:53 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
Again, do your own research.


I did and I am waiting for your refutation.

Best regards
Thomas


Shuffle the folders on your desk, SCG, it's probably next to the folder with the statistics on men in women's restrooms. Now THAT is a big problem.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15867
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:03 pm

seahawk wrote:
Yes, kneeling as a sign of protest. They took a gesture that was meant to increase awareness of a perceived society wide problem and used it to express their dislike of a person. Typical behaviour of the alt left, who always feel the need to be part of every protest and use it for their political gains.

Any idiot with a single working synapse would have guessed the President going after kneeling protesters would only make the protest exponentially bigger, but Trump doesn't have a working synapse. Maybe if the players wore swastikas and carried tiki torches he'd speak more favorably of them.

einsteinboricua wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BLM is too violent and taking a knee is disrespectful and hateful, so how are minorities supposed to protest?

They're not.

Image

:checkmark: If you're not a straight, white, christian male, this administration does not believe you belong here.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:03 pm

jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:

There are other more worthy causes for these people to champion as I've mentioned in a previous post.


Paternalistic much?

Would you mind sending me a complete list of what I can and cannot protest, Master SCG?


Nice deflection. Ignore the overwhelming evidence against your position and attack the messenger by calling me a historically and racially charged name (master). In essence calling me a racist. I find this extremely offensive and insulting. It's almost as if you want race relations in this country to get worse.

If you have a problem with the statistics then just do some research and identify the flaws.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15867
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:06 pm

socalgeo wrote:
In essence calling me a racist. I find this extremely offensive and insulting. It's almost as if you want race relations in this country to get worse.

If you have a problem with the statistics then just do some research and identify the flaws.

2017 is the year of cawling wut it iz! You *are* a racist booboo. As are all the Trumpanzees. It's proven *daily*.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:21 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:

There are other more worthy causes for these people to champion as I've mentioned in a previous post.


Paternalistic much?

Would you mind sending me a complete list of what I can and cannot protest, Master SCG?


Nice deflection. Ignore the overwhelming evidence against your position and attack the messenger by calling me a historically and racially charged name (master). In essence calling me a racist. I find this extremely offensive and insulting. It's almost as if you want race relations in this country to get worse.

If you have a problem with the statistics then just do some research and identify the flaws.


Hey buddy, I didn't question your statistics.

I questioned your paternalistic arrogance in taking a position that these "sons of b*tches" should find something "more meaningful" to complain about (as judged by you--tax reform maybe?). That's your problem, SCG. Just like NoTime above, who explicitly states an entire race and community is responsible for 50% of murders, and, sure, yeah, unarmed blacks get killed, but really, in the grand scheme, it's nothing and they should just shrug it off, shut the hell up, stand the f*ck up, and PLAY BALL for your entertainment. After the game is done, if they want to kneel, well, I'm sure you're fine if they kneel and give their gratitude to you the whiteys for buying a ticket and to Trump for being so magnanimous so as to forgive them for their transgression.

Master is indeed the perfectly appropriate word to respond to such clueless arrogance. So let's get that NFL rulebook updated like Bozo wants, and then when we're done with that, we can have another "Constitutional Convention" headed by you and your ilk to tell us what we can and cannot be upset by, can and cannot say, and can and cannot do.

In any case, I don't expect light bulbs to go off any time soon for any of you guys.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:34 pm

jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:

Paternalistic much?

Would you mind sending me a complete list of what I can and cannot protest, Master SCG?


Nice deflection. Ignore the overwhelming evidence against your position and attack the messenger by calling me a historically and racially charged name (master). In essence calling me a racist. I find this extremely offensive and insulting. It's almost as if you want race relations in this country to get worse.

If you have a problem with the statistics then just do some research and identify the flaws.


Hey buddy, I didn't question your statistics.

I questioned your paternalistic arrogance in taking a position that these "sons of b*tches" should find something "more meaningful" to complain about (as judged by you--tax reform maybe?). That's your problem, SCG. Just like NoTime above, who explicitly states an entire race and community is responsible for 50% of murders, and, sure, yeah, unarmed blacks get killed, but really, in the grand scheme, it's nothing and they should just shrug it off, shut the hell up, stand the f*ck up, and PLAY BALL for your entertainment. After the game is done, if they want to kneel, well, I'm sure you're fine if they kneel and give their gratitude to you the whiteys for buying a ticket and to Trump for being so magnanimous so as to forgive them for their transgression.

Master is indeed the perfectly appropriate word to respond to such clueless arrogance. So let's get that NFL rulebook updated like Bozo wants, and then when we're done with that, we can have another "Constitutional Convention" headed by you and your ilk to tell us what we can and cannot be upset by, can and cannot say, and can and cannot do.

In any case, I don't expect light bulbs to go off any time soon for any of you guys.


I'm sorry that my pointing out that number of children being murdered while in the government run foster care system is more than the total number of unarmed people killed by police in the US has made you feel like I am arrogant and am telling you what to care about.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:14 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:

Nice deflection. Ignore the overwhelming evidence against your position and attack the messenger by calling me a historically and racially charged name (master). In essence calling me a racist. I find this extremely offensive and insulting. It's almost as if you want race relations in this country to get worse.

If you have a problem with the statistics then just do some research and identify the flaws.


Hey buddy, I didn't question your statistics.

I questioned your paternalistic arrogance in taking a position that these "sons of b*tches" should find something "more meaningful" to complain about (as judged by you--tax reform maybe?). That's your problem, SCG. Just like NoTime above, who explicitly states an entire race and community is responsible for 50% of murders, and, sure, yeah, unarmed blacks get killed, but really, in the grand scheme, it's nothing and they should just shrug it off, shut the hell up, stand the f*ck up, and PLAY BALL for your entertainment. After the game is done, if they want to kneel, well, I'm sure you're fine if they kneel and give their gratitude to you the whiteys for buying a ticket and to Trump for being so magnanimous so as to forgive them for their transgression.

Master is indeed the perfectly appropriate word to respond to such clueless arrogance. So let's get that NFL rulebook updated like Bozo wants, and then when we're done with that, we can have another "Constitutional Convention" headed by you and your ilk to tell us what we can and cannot be upset by, can and cannot say, and can and cannot do.

In any case, I don't expect light bulbs to go off any time soon for any of you guys.


I'm sorry that my pointing out that number of children being murdered while in the government run foster care system is more than the total number of unarmed people killed by police in the US has made you feel like I am arrogant and am telling you what to care about.


I know in your mind this is all about the police. It's not. Go to the original source. And then you tell me that there are far more meaningful (I.e., A-OK with SCG) things to be concerned about.

https://www.google.com/amp/ninerswire.u ... nthem/amp/

Now it's become a much bigger thing, no doubt.

But anyway none of this matters, I know.

They should be standing anyway. Because of the troops. The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:47 pm

jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:

Hey buddy, I didn't question your statistics.

I questioned your paternalistic arrogance in taking a position that these "sons of b*tches" should find something "more meaningful" to complain about (as judged by you--tax reform maybe?). That's your problem, SCG. Just like NoTime above, who explicitly states an entire race and community is responsible for 50% of murders, and, sure, yeah, unarmed blacks get killed, but really, in the grand scheme, it's nothing and they should just shrug it off, shut the hell up, stand the f*ck up, and PLAY BALL for your entertainment. After the game is done, if they want to kneel, well, I'm sure you're fine if they kneel and give their gratitude to you the whiteys for buying a ticket and to Trump for being so magnanimous so as to forgive them for their transgression.

Master is indeed the perfectly appropriate word to respond to such clueless arrogance. So let's get that NFL rulebook updated like Bozo wants, and then when we're done with that, we can have another "Constitutional Convention" headed by you and your ilk to tell us what we can and cannot be upset by, can and cannot say, and can and cannot do.

In any case, I don't expect light bulbs to go off any time soon for any of you guys.


I'm sorry that my pointing out that number of children being murdered while in the government run foster care system is more than the total number of unarmed people killed by police in the US has made you feel like I am arrogant and am telling you what to care about.


I know in your mind this is all about the police. It's not. Go to the original source. And then you tell me that there are far more meaningful (I.e., A-OK with SCG) things to be concerned about.

https://www.google.com/amp/ninerswire.u ... nthem/amp/

Now it's become a much bigger thing, no doubt.

But anyway none of this matters, I know.

They should be standing anyway. Because of the troops. The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else.

How arrogant of you to tell me what the flag should mean to me and the 60%+ of Americans who agree with Trump on this.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:52 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:

I'm sorry that my pointing out that number of children being murdered while in the government run foster care system is more than the total number of unarmed people killed by police in the US has made you feel like I am arrogant and am telling you what to care about.


I know in your mind this is all about the police. It's not. Go to the original source. And then you tell me that there are far more meaningful (I.e., A-OK with SCG) things to be concerned about.

https://www.google.com/amp/ninerswire.u ... nthem/amp/

Now it's become a much bigger thing, no doubt.

But anyway none of this matters, I know.

They should be standing anyway. Because of the troops. The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else.

How arrogant of you to tell me what the flag should mean to me and the 60%+ of Americans who agree with Trump on this.


Exactly, SCG, exactly. No light bulbs with you, buddy.

I am not telling YOU sh*t with regard to what you have to think. YOU, however, are telling ME. And you're throwing in an opinion poll, too. Even if that's true, what about the 40%? F*ck them, huh, buddy? Because that's what this country is about. At least when the 60% is on your side.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:55 pm

jetero wrote:
I know in your mind this is all about the police. It's not. Go to the original source. And then you tell me that there are far more meaningful (I.e., A-OK with SCG) things to be concerned about.

https://www.google.com/amp/ninerswire.u ... nthem/amp/.

Did you read your link? He mentions the police many times. Here's a good link for you:
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday ... /89715672/

The NFL allowed him to wear socks with police depicted as pigs, yet they stopped teams from wearing anything that remembered the 5 cops murdered at a Black Lives Matter protest in Dallas.

It is totally about protesting against the police. But the stats show that the evidence of what they claim is just not there.

The NFL is on the wrong side of history on this.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:57 pm

jetero wrote:
Exactly, SCG, exactly. No light bulbs with you, buddy.
I am not telling YOU sh*t with regard to what you have to think. YOU, however, are telling ME. And you're throwing in an opinion poll, too. Even if that's true, what about the 40%? F*ck them, huh, buddy? Because that's what this country is about. At least when the 60% is on your side.

You really do lash out in anger when you lose arguments. Not a good look for you my friend.
Last edited by socalgeo on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:58 pm

socalgeo wrote:
The NFL is on the wrong side of history on this.


Isn't it cute when you use our phrases, Li'l Buddy? And this is the second time.

They're only on the wrong side of history if you and your cohorts tear up the Constitution and write a new authoritarian one that regulates free speech and further glorifies your idea of "law and order," i.e., keeping the poor and minorities down.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:59 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:
Exactly, SCG, exactly. No light bulbs with you, buddy.
I am not telling YOU sh*t with regard to what you have to think. YOU, however, are telling ME. And you're throwing in an opinion poll, too. Even if that's true, what about the 40%? F*ck them, huh, buddy? Because that's what this country is about. At least when the 60% is on your side.

You really do lash out in anger when you loose arguments. Not a good look for you my friend.


"Loose"? You so smart!
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:02 pm

jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
The NFL is on the wrong side of history on this.


Isn't it cute when you use our phrases, Li'l Buddy? And this is the second time.

They're only on the wrong side of history if you and your cohorts tear up the Constitution and write a new authoritarian one that regulates free speech and further glorifies your idea of "law and order," i.e., keeping the poor and minorities down.


OMG - that is funny. You've gotten yourself lathered up to the point where you are saying that boycotting the NFL because I don't agree with their shameless, crass, and meaningless protests of the symbols of this country is somehow an existential threat to the constitution and your freedoms.

Drama queen much?
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:04 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
The NFL is on the wrong side of history on this.


Isn't it cute when you use our phrases, Li'l Buddy? And this is the second time.

They're only on the wrong side of history if you and your cohorts tear up the Constitution and write a new authoritarian one that regulates free speech and further glorifies your idea of "law and order," i.e., keeping the poor and minorities down.


OMG - that is funny. You've gotten yourself lathered up to the point where you are saying that boycotting the NFL because I don't agree with their shameless, crass, and meaningless protests of the symbols of this country is somehow an existential threat to the constitution and your freedoms.

Drama queen much?


Great reading comprehension skills too.

Guess you were on the wrong side of education.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:07 pm

[quote="jetero"] "Loose"? You so smart![/quote]
Meh... I fixed it... big deal.....
still not a good look for you though....LOL
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:10 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:

"Loose"? You so smart!

Meh... I fixed it... big deal.....
still not a good look for you though....LOL


You're looking great though buddy . . . LOL

Image
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:01 pm

jetero - the statistics and evidence are clear. The issue that is being protested has been debunked. I'm sad to see that you are a science denier, despite all of the evidence being clear. I think the term for someone who continually advocates for racial tensions by citing false information about perceived racial injustices is called a "Race Carder". Or "Carder" for short.

You are a Carder...
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:10 pm

seahawk wrote:
Yes, kneeling as a sign of protest. They took a gesture that was meant to increase awareness of a perceived society wide problem and used it to express their dislike of a person. Typical behaviour of the alt left, who always feel the need to be part of every protest and use it for their political gains.

So, you in effect indict the professors for their form of protest.

seahawk wrote:
Typical behaviour of the alt left, who always feel the need to be part of every protest and use it for their political gains.

The typical behavior, in this case, is your own, in turning a blind eye from what is actually happening and placing the behavior of others into one of your preconceived pigeonholes.

It may be that the students and faculty at Georgetown Law really do not like the "person" we know as Jeff Sessions. I admit that I do not like him.

But it is really much more than Mr. Session's person that I (and I presume they) do not like. We do not like the statements he has made and the positions he has taken over many years. We do not like the fact that this man, in positions of power, speaks and acts without respect for our Constitution and rule of law.

I (and I presume they) protest the fact that this man is Attorney General, that he lies, and that he spouts hateful nonsense. Indirectly we also protest against the man who appointed him and those who confirmed him.

At Georgetown, this began as a student protest, and a peaceful one. There was no attempt to block Mr. Sessions from speaking. The involvement of the professors was quite secondary and supportive of the students.

By the way, higher level students and professors are already protesting the actions and attitudes of Mr. Trump and Mr. Sessions in the nations law journals. So this is not something new, just a rather different form of protest.

So, mass kneeling (I dislike the formulation "taking a kneel" in current usage) is spreading from the football sidelines to college campuses and other venues. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that it has frequently been seen at prayer vigils and memorials.

Trust me on this: this form of protest will be seen more and more in the coming weeks, months and years so long as we have hypocrites on the public stage, and hypocritical ceremonies at public functions.

Get used to it.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
330west
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:43 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:12 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero wrote:
socalgeo wrote:

I'm sorry that my pointing out that number of children being murdered while in the government run foster care system is more than the total number of unarmed people killed by police in the US has made you feel like I am arrogant and am telling you what to care about.


I know in your mind this is all about the police. It's not. Go to the original source. And then you tell me that there are far more meaningful (I.e., A-OK with SCG) things to be concerned about.

https://www.google.com/amp/ninerswire.u ... nthem/amp/

Now it's become a much bigger thing, no doubt.

But anyway none of this matters, I know.

They should be standing anyway. Because of the troops. The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else.

How arrogant of you to tell me what the flag should mean to me and the 60%+ of Americans who agree with Trump on this.


So because the majority believes in something it's right? It wasn't that long ago that the majority of Americans opposed civil rights for black people and more recently equal rights for gay people.
Always fly first class, otherwise your heirs will.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:14 pm

socalgeo wrote:
jetero - the statistics and evidence are clear. The issue that is being protested has been debunked. I'm sad to see that you are a science denier, despite all of the evidence being clear.


Damn you're a riot! The gift that keeps on giving!

-Zero reading comprehension skills

-Absolute tunnel vision

-Use of "our side's" figures of speech

-Continuing to argue against increasingly strawy men

Image

You could be the mascot of the Trumpists, if he wasn't such a great one himself!
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:24 pm

scbriml wrote:
Those that think taking a knee is insulting to the flag, the anthem or the military probably believe Rosa Parks was protesting about public transportation.

Image

Not sure if this BBC video is available outside the UK, but worth a watch if it is.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/american-football/41412767

Thanks for posting that link. Two fine spokesmen.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:27 pm

330west wrote:
So because the majority believes in something it's right? It wasn't that long ago that the majority of Americans opposed civil rights for black people and more recently equal rights for gay people.


Please tell me that you are not equating standing in attention during the national anthem to these horrible injustices in the past.

Has the US flag now become a symbol of hate? Am I a racist for saluting the flag now? Is that the plan of the left?

Please tell me that the Democrats aren't basing their hopes to take back congress and the White House on the idea that patriotism equals racism.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:40 pm

socalgeo wrote:
330west wrote:
So because the majority believes in something it's right? It wasn't that long ago that the majority of Americans opposed civil rights for black people and more recently equal rights for gay people.


Please tell me that you are not equating standing in attention during the national anthem to these horrible injustices in the past.

Has the US flag now become a symbol of hate? Am I a racist for saluting the flag now? Is that the plan of the left?

Please tell me that the Democrats aren't basing their hopes to take back congress and the White House on the idea that patriotism equals racism.


SCG, again, just make your rule book and tell us what it's supposed to mean so we won't disappoint you anymore and we can all fall in line. Symbols sure the hell can't mean different things to different people, of course, and, if they do, we should just take a poll and simple majority wins. And, yes, I do anticipate Nancy Pelosi and the DNC adopting a platform that says, "Patriotism equals racism."

Are you really that dense?
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:46 pm

socalgeo wrote:
These NFL players are on the record saying that this is about police killing "an incredible number of unarmed black people".

You cite one NFL player who used those words. Perhaps there have been others.

But I'd bet that an incredibly small number said them.

There is no need to muddy the water with nonsense.

All unjustified killings are wrong.

You are correct in arguing that the problem is probably statistically small.

Except to the persons killed and their families, and to our society.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:53 pm

jetero wrote:
They should be standing anyway. Because of the troops. The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else.

How large are your blinders? "The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else" is quite a load of nonsense.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
330west
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:43 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:23 pm

socalgeo wrote:
330west wrote:
So because the majority believes in something it's right? It wasn't that long ago that the majority of Americans opposed civil rights for black people and more recently equal rights for gay people.


Please tell me that you are not equating standing in attention during the national anthem to these horrible injustices in the past.

Has the US flag now become a symbol of hate? Am I a racist for saluting the flag now? Is that the plan of the left?

Please tell me that the Democrats aren't basing their hopes to take back congress and the White House on the idea that patriotism equals racism.


Of course I'm not equating this with the civil rights movement however I am asserting that the popular opinion is not always, or even often, a good argument for a particular belief.
Always fly first class, otherwise your heirs will.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:26 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
jetero wrote:
They should be standing anyway. Because of the troops. The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else.

How large are your blinders? "The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else" is quite a load of nonsense.


Not my blinders.

Ask the Vice President:

"Most importantly, it's about respect for all those who fought and died to defend [the flag]."

https://www.mediaite.com/online/pence-i ... al-anthem/

That's his view, SCG's view, and, according to SCG, the view of 60% of Americans so therefore that's the only view. Also therefore, if you don't stand, you obviously hate the military and disrespect veterans. Don't tell me you've never heard that one, Bob!

Another Bob--Bob Costas--had something to thoughtful about to say about this:

"Patriotism comes in many forms"

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25 ... newday.cnn

Anyway, boycott away SCG, NT, no one on here is arguing with you is saying that you shouldn't if it means that much to you. But to be so dismissive of people.

We have a president who called an entire group of people "sons of b*tches" and, mind you, not under his breath. From that bully pulpit, he used it to pit one group of Americans against another. (Not to mention he also used that same bully pulpit to argue for more violence in the NFL, nevermind what has been discovered recently with CTE.) And guess what? There's only one group of Americans who are following Bozo and with that same sort of bullying approach and calling people "ungrateful" and implying that anyone who defends them "hates the police" and "hates the troops" and certainly isn't a "patriot" and that these people need to "fall in line" and "shut up" or "find something else to complain about." Trump is the disgrace to the flag and the country.

SCG, yap away. Boycott away. But don't get upset if a whole group of people (maybe not 60%) thinks you and your fellow 60% are just plain fools and won't fall in line behind you and your "majority" opinion.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to stand for the national anthem this weekend during the sporting events I'll be attending because of what it means to me. And I won't get my self right-eous panties in a wad if the guy next to me chooses to stay seated. But boy these days some of you are really making it tough, SCG.

This right-wing superstitious crap--"If I believe in God, you have to, too. If I don't believe in gay marriage, well we have to outlaw it. If I don't think there is racism in the U.S., well GD you, there isn't. If I think that something isn't "legitimate" for protesting, then anyone who does so is lazy and ungrateful. If I think you have to stand for the national anthem, well you have to, or else you're not a patriot." Believe whatever you want to believe--no need to push it off on everyone else.
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:44 pm

jetero wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
jetero wrote:
They should be standing anyway. Because of the troops. The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else.

How large are your blinders? "The flag is all about the troops and can't mean a damned thing else" is quite a load of nonsense.


Not my blinders.

Ask the Vice President:

"Most importantly, it's about respect for all those who fought and died to defend [the flag]."

https://www.mediaite.com/online/pence-i ... al-anthem/

That's his view, SCG's view, and, according to SCG, the view of 60% of Americans so therefore that's the only view. Also therefore, if you don't stand, you obviously hate the military and disrespect veterans. Don't tell me you've never heard that one, Bob!

Another Bob--Bob Costas--had something to thoughtful about to say about this:

"Patriotism comes in many forms"

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/09/25 ... newday.cnn

Bob Costas made some very good points, especially about nuances. He isn't wearing blinders. You appear to be doing so based upon what you have written.

I have what seems like good reason to me not to ask the Vice President about anything. In some ways, hard as it might seem to believe, he is worse than the President.

Both are a pox upon this nation for creating divisions rather than building unity.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:06 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Bob Costas made some very good points, especially about nuances. He isn't wearing blinders. You appear to be doing so based upon what you have written.


Bob, I know you don't like it when people make points that they don't back up.

You said I am "wearing blinders" because I sarcastically said that the flag can only symbolize the military, which is, indeed, what SCG and his 60% cohort seem to believe. He even went so far as to imply that his view was the only valid one because he was on the "50% + 1" side.

So if you'd like to say how I'm "wearing blinders" with regard to it being generally accepted amongst the self right-eous, that not standing during the national anthem is a deliberate act of disrespect towards the military, please be more specific.
 
seb146
Posts: 15358
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:24 am

socalgeo wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
socalgeo wrote:
Determining any trend or bias about racial injustice from a sample size of 48 deaths out of the US population of 320 million is impossible. A ridiculous attempt actually. This number is infinitesimally small compared to the population.


What is the confidence interval? Sample size is charged police officers, population size doesn´t even play into it.

This is a made up non-issue.


Please do show your evidence that this difference in conviction rate does not extend into other areas of the Police/Population interaction.

best regards
Thomas

Again, do your own research. These NFL players are on the record saying that this is about police killing "an incredible number of unarmed black people".

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/o ... tests.html

17 unarmed black people being killed by police is tragic and sad, but far from "an incredible number"

There are other more worthy causes for these people to champion as I've mentioned in a previous post.


I thought "all lives matter"? So, then, why get upset over people protesting and demanding that lives matter?

I recall a county clerk who refused to do her job as a "peaceful protest" for what she believed and she was hailed as a champion. Other than her being white, Christian and Republican, what is the difference? Government employees can refuse to do their job but private employees can not?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:51 am

jetero wrote:
So if you'd like to say how I'm "wearing blinders" with regard to it being generally accepted amongst the self right-eous, that not standing during the national anthem is a deliberate act of disrespect towards the military, please be more specific.

Think about the playing of the national anthem (or any other country's anthem) at the Olympics. It has no military meaning. Never.

A flag and an anthem are symbolic of a country and nothing more.

As Mr. Costas asked, "How come teachers aren't honored?"

How come civil rights leaders aren't honored?

I say again, until the hypocrisy about civil rights in the USA stops, we should not play the national anthem at sporting events.

It loses all meaning, just as daily recitals of the Pledge of Allegiance lose meaning. It becomes trite.

We have the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Veteran's Day and other special occasions to properly pay honor to those who deserve all honor.

Beer-swilling crowds at sporting events are not among them.

Another hypocritical act that ought to be dispensed with is the opening prayers at meetings of Congress. There is no evidence that they do any good.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:54 am

seb146 wrote:

I thought "all lives matter"? So, then, why get upset over people protesting and demanding that lives matter?


Yes all lives do matter. Too bad Democrat politicians have to apologize for saying so.
Remember Maryland Governor O'Mally? He was my preference for President- I would have voted for him. I met him a few times. That all ended when he apologized for saying the truth.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics/ ... index.html
 
jetero
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Global Citizen Festival take a knee everyone

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:57 am

socalgeo wrote:
seb146 wrote:


I thought "all lives matter"? So, then, why get upset over people protesting and demanding that lives matter?


Yes all lives do matter. Too bad Democrat politicians have to apologize for saying so.
Remember Maryland Governor O'Mally? He was my preference for President- I would have voted for him. I met him a few times. That all ended when he apologized for saying the truth.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics/ ... index.html


So funny SCG because I actually worked for him many moons ago!

I'm quite confident he's happy to not count you as a supporter anymore.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1337Delta764, seb146 and 2 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos