MrHMSH wrote:

bgm wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

Can you put a number on how many people 'large swathes' consists of?

Certainly a significant portion of the millions who voted the current trash into the White House. It was part of his platform to discriminate against Muslims.

“calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”

Not a number, but OK.

While I'm not one to deny the abuse and discrimination Muslims in the USA receive, especially post 9/11, I think you're overestimating it a little.

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

I apologize that I can only cite examples and not numbers.

Also, the the combination of right-wing media hatred for Obama and right-wing media hatred for Muslims and right-wing media hatred for Latinos has given rise to a president elected by a minority of Americans and given power to groups like KKK and neo-Nazis. These snowflake groups are so butt hurt they have protests against them, they got the political leadership to give the opposition a name (antifa) and declare those counter protesters as terrorists.

salttee wrote:

seb146 wrote:

large swaths of the country going from "are Muslims a thing in the United States?" to sheer hatred of every last one of them.

That's overstated. It's true that those people exist, but to assign them to be "large swaths" of the country gives the wrong impression to any reader who doesn't have actual experience here. The few who carry visceral hatred are usually exceptions within the communities where they live. There are a great many who voted for Trump who like the exciting rhetoric but practice a live and let live attitude in their personal life. They have friends who are black and so on. The same with the people from the ME.

Very well written. Agree 100%.

As for 9/11, I agree that the feelings about the event(s) have faded a bit. But, I hope we continue to recognize the impact that it had. And if you simply don't feel anything about the day, I hope you have the decency to respect others as they grieve.

seb146 wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

bgm wrote:

Certainly a significant portion of the millions who voted the current trash into the White House. It was part of his platform to discriminate against Muslims.

“calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”

Not a number, but OK.

While I'm not one to deny the abuse and discrimination Muslims in the USA receive, especially post 9/11, I think you're overestimating it a little.

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

I apologize that I can only cite examples and not numbers.

Also, the the combination of right-wing media hatred for Obama and right-wing media hatred for Muslims and right-wing media hatred for Latinos has given rise to a president elected by a minority of Americans and given power to groups like KKK and neo-Nazis. These snowflake groups are so butt hurt they have protests against them, they got the political leadership to give the opposition a name (antifa) and declare those counter protesters as terrorists.

What power do they have now that they haven't had before? To me it just seems like the same crap is happening, it's only a bit worse now. Trumpy Wumpy has been in office for a few months, that sentiment doesn't come overnight.

And call me controversial, but I think there are more far more reasons Trump was elected besides a combination of media hatred.

MrHMSH wrote:

What power do they have now that they haven't had before?

The confidence that they will probably get away with it, that someone in the White House has their back, that the attorney general will not prosecute them, etc. etc.

Dutchy wrote:

You do know where Mesopotamia is, right?

You do know who destroyed Iraq and also
was instrumental to all other destructive "regime change" efforts in the region?

bsmalls wrote:

Maybe I missed it but was disheartened to not see a 9/11 thread today.

Here is one
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373533


Well, since I was in the path of Irma, I appreciated the news media being on top of THAT story.


I've always wondered...WHAT IF....there had been an approaching cat 4 storm threatening the gulf coast on 09/11/01

MrHMSH wrote:

seb146 wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

Not a number, but OK.

While I'm not one to deny the abuse and discrimination Muslims in the USA receive, especially post 9/11, I think you're overestimating it a little.

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

I apologize that I can only cite examples and not numbers.

Also, the the combination of right-wing media hatred for Obama and right-wing media hatred for Muslims and right-wing media hatred for Latinos has given rise to a president elected by a minority of Americans and given power to groups like KKK and neo-Nazis. These snowflake groups are so butt hurt they have protests against them, they got the political leadership to give the opposition a name (antifa) and declare those counter protesters as terrorists.

What power do they have now that they haven't had before? To me it just seems like the same crap is happening, it's only a bit worse now. Trumpy Wumpy has been in office for a few months, that sentiment doesn't come overnight.

And call me controversial, but I think there are more far more reasons Trump was elected besides a combination of media hatred.

It was people believing fake news and key words and biased stories. Not to mention "we will make Obama a one term president" from a very powerful Republican leader. All because why? Democrat is a four letter word and nothing more.

salttee wrote:

seb146 wrote:

my cynical nature.

You see that as cynicism eh.

There are plenty of Muslim Americans who don't have the same fears as you, or bitterness or cynicism or whatever.. They get along in American society just fine. Look around, it's going on everywhere in the US.

Have you read about the Holly Bobo murder? What a tragedy eh? How much of each day should be spent on these things?

My family still lives in one of the white washed, alt-right parts of the West Coast. That is a huge chunk of land. It does no good to say "that is a small part among a lager, tolerant society" because what I am telling you and what I see and read in the local media is accurate. Go there for yourself. The hatred and fear of Mexicans and Blacks and Muslims and "liberals" is insane. All because "I know a guy, so it must be true" or "I heard it so it must be true" mentality.

Oregon was originally founded as a White utopia. Sundown Laws for many minorities existed not so long ago. That way of thinking still exists in many rural areas of the country. Not just rural Oregon. As a middle-aged White man, I am not harassed, but I do hear things. I guess they think I am "one of them" or something.

I work in an educationl environment, and no, we will never forget.

seb146 wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

bgm wrote:

Certainly a significant portion of the millions who voted the current trash into the White House. It was part of his platform to discriminate against Muslims.

“calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”

Not a number, but OK.

While I'm not one to deny the abuse and discrimination Muslims in the USA receive, especially post 9/11, I think you're overestimating it a little.

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

I apologize that I can only cite examples and not numbers.

Also, the the combination of right-wing media hatred for Obama and right-wing media hatred for Muslims and right-wing media hatred for Latinos has given rise to a president elected by a minority of Americans and given power to groups like KKK and neo-Nazis. These snowflake groups are so butt hurt they have protests against them, they got the political leadership to give the opposition a name (antifa) and declare those counter protesters as terrorists.

What in the world are you talking about buddy? Turn off MSNBC for a minute and go outside for a walk.

Perhaps this thread is as good of an example as any about what 9/11 means to folks 16 years on, and like so many other major events a heterogeneity of experiences begets a heterogeneity of memories and feelings as time goes on. And even those can change from person to person. For some that day, their experience was their last, others live on with the loss of someone they knew or loved. Still others view it as something that happened far away in a place and culture that they have never seen or understand. The sudden and permanent change in lives that occurred that day ranges from something as acute as losing an immediate family member to something as mundane as dealing with the TSA. For some, heavy despair and boiling anger are just under the surface, and some woke up yesterday and didn't realize it was 9/11 until seeing a reminder over the course of the day. In many parts of the world I'm sure nobody thought about it at all. And even still there's now folks in the US reaching adulthood that have no working memory of life before, the moment of, and the differences and similarities of life after.

Perhaps the takeaway is that 9/11 is a date that means many different things to many different people; and as people do, every person will mark the occasion in their own way.

Until all of us who were alive that day - and that's still most of us- have faded into history, 9/11 will remain a very real, very living thing. Maybe the best thing to do is to remember that, and give each other a little space to be very human.

Super80Fan wrote:

seb146 wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

Not a number, but OK.

While I'm not one to deny the abuse and discrimination Muslims in the USA receive, especially post 9/11, I think you're overestimating it a little.

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

I apologize that I can only cite examples and not numbers.

Also, the the combination of right-wing media hatred for Obama and right-wing media hatred for Muslims and right-wing media hatred for Latinos has given rise to a president elected by a minority of Americans and given power to groups like KKK and neo-Nazis. These snowflake groups are so butt hurt they have protests against them, they got the political leadership to give the opposition a name (antifa) and declare those counter protesters as terrorists.

What in the world are you talking about buddy? Turn off MSNBC for a minute and go outside for a walk.

I am sorry that my reality of where I grew up does not fit with what you see on the TV. Maybe it is you who should turn off the media....

seb146 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

seb146 wrote:

I apologize that I can only cite examples and not numbers.

Also, the the combination of right-wing media hatred for Obama and right-wing media hatred for Muslims and right-wing media hatred for Latinos has given rise to a president elected by a minority of Americans and given power to groups like KKK and neo-Nazis. These snowflake groups are so butt hurt they have protests against them, they got the political leadership to give the opposition a name (antifa) and declare those counter protesters as terrorists.

What in the world are you talking about buddy? Turn off MSNBC for a minute and go outside for a walk.

I am sorry that my reality of where I grew up does not fit with what you see on the TV. Maybe it is you who should turn off the media....

I really wish I lived in your Fantasyworld.

Super80Fan wrote:

I really wish I lived in your Fantasyworld.

I think his take on inland Washington and Oregon is dead on accurate. It fits with what I know.

Seb, I think your problem with understanding the Confederate flag etc is that you are looking for a tangible intellectual answer when the meanings of these kinds of symbols are emotional rather than intellectual. When one thinks of the meaning of the American flag, what is called to mind is beautiful geography, freedom of movement, freedom of speech, common justice and so on.

When an alt-right character visualizes the Confederate flag, I think the visualization is more along the lines of his mother's teat.

Here's a recent article that deals with another part of this subject: https://kotaku.com/bungie-removes-desti ... 1803818134
The KEK logo doesn't really mean anything, it's just seen by the knuckle draggers as offensive artistry. That's about as deep as they go.

Dutchy wrote:

WIederling wrote:

mad99 wrote:

what happened after is the real tragedy.

Looks like its time to leave Syria. It was fun while it lasted..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 33966.html

For once the chance for an end of horrors and not the continuation of endless horror.

Some countries never (re)built a civilization.
So they have no idea how difficult and costly that is
... and busily destroy them on a whim and for minor gains if any.

You do know where Mesopotamia is, right?

Not to mention the Phoenicians as well as cities like Aleppo, Damascus which are among the world's oldest continuously inhabited cities.

I remember the events of September 11th. I remember every day. They are reinforced every time I see:

- Americans or Brits killed in Iraq, Afghanistan
- IS running round chopping people's heads off in Iraq and Syria
- The huge and continuing wave of migration into Europe
-London, Germany, Brussels, Nice, London again, Barcelona.....

The terrible events of that day back in 2001 were an excuse for the US government (sadly with the support of my government and that prick we had as PM) to drive a ridiculous agenda that led us directly where we are today with so much that is going wrong in the world. When will we in "the West" ever learn that tearing into that part of the world with bombs and guns does not work?

"Revenge, revenge, revenge!" is the cry. "Someone must pay!". That's right... the US should have invaded Saudi Arabia if they wanted to punish the perpetrators of the attack (with a the actual attackers dead).

We should spare a thought for those poor souls caught up in the horrors of that day. The actions afterwards that are making many others lives hell - home and abroad - since then and well into the foreseeable future are a shameful response to what happened.

I didn't know anyone connected to the attack on the twin towers so I have no different level of sympathy for them than I do to those suffering to this day as a direct consequence of decisions made after that horrible event.

At some point it has to be accepted that going half way round the world and shooting the shit out of people doesn't deliver the goals we seek (to live peacefully) and does not serve as a fitting tribute to those that died on 11th September.

mad99 wrote:

what happened after is the real tragedy.

Looks like its time to leave Syria. It was fun while it lasted..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 33966.html

Every year drives home the message that it's yet another year we are fighting for 9-11 with nothing to show for it but the TSA circus. While 9-11 is itself an epic tragedy, we sent nearly double the number who died on 9-11 to their own deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, and what do we have to show for it? And those deaths are dwarfed by the civilians that have died in our escapades. And now we have a leader who lied his pants off during 9-11 and squawked how the tragedy made his building the tallest in Manhattan. It's really all quite fitting. Never forget? Sure. But how 'bout LEARN...

MaverickM11 wrote:

mad99 wrote:

what happened after is the real tragedy.

Looks like its time to leave Syria. It was fun while it lasted..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 33966.html

Every year drives home the message that it's yet another year we are fighting for 9-11 with nothing to show for it but the TSA circus. While 9-11 is itself an epic tragedy, we sent nearly double the number who died on 9-11 to their own deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, and what do we have to show for it? And those deaths are dwarfed by the civilians that have died in our escapades. And now we have a leader who lied his pants off during 9-11 and squawked how the tragedy made his building the tallest in Manhattan. It's really all quite fitting. Never forget? Sure. But how 'bout LEARN...

So much harsh comments between everyone.

Every time September 11 comes up I think about the day, although time does march on, now 16 years ago for everyone still in school then they are learning about it in history not having to live through it.

I got to visit the September 11 memorial in New York city this past June, it was a good reminder of the event but also off the work that was done after the event.

I do have to laugh along with the comment that you remember September 11 when standing in a TSA line having while you are getting checked.

BNE wrote:

I do have to laugh along with the comment that you remember September 11 when standing in a TSA line having while you are getting checked.

If anything, it was the shoe bomber who made TSA unbearable. Thank goodness for PreCheck.

BNE wrote:

Every time September 11 comes up I think about the day, although time does march on, now 16 years ago for everyone still in school then they are learning about it in history not having to live through it. I got to visit the September 11 memorial in New York city this past June, it was a good reminder of the event but also off the work that was done after the event. I do have to laugh along with the comment that you remember September 11 when standing in a TSA line having while you are getting checked.

For the first time this year it really felt like just another day to me. I was watching a documentary on Netflix a couple of months back however, about the 9/11 Memorial build, along with the One World Trade Center (Freedom Tower) so I had my many 9/11 thoughts in 2017 then. Definitely a goal to visit the memorial too within the next ten years. Maybe the Flight 93 National Memorial too.

I think about 9/11 everytime I visit the airport - any airport. I think in 2021 it will become more of a higher profile anniversary (again), as will 2026 no doubt. I do agree that Hurricane Irma took the main media focus that day. As noted below, there was an acknowledgement posted in one of the other forums, but overall this is a topic worth discussing in its own right, as 2001 becomes further away.

I still vividly remember 9/11. I can still remember what I did that day.

But the significance of 9/11 - the attack - is being overshadowed by what came after. Ten years after 2011 I was sad that the entire world didn't get better. Quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan, the housing bubble... and sadly, we now feel comfortable with liquid bans, reinforced cockpit doors, stringent safety and screenings. How much security, how much security theater?

We've seen far worse disasters than 9/11, even in the past few years. But they didn't change the course of the world so much.


David