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zkojq
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F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:50 am

It's been a long time since we last had an F1 thread here! The season has been pretty good so far; much better than last year's. I was lucky enough to be at Monaco and absolutely loved it. Things have been pretty tight at the top of the points table, with Hamilton just edging ahead of Vettel after Monza.

Highlights thus far:
- Minimal performance differences between Mercedes and Ferrari
- McLarenHonda's ever decreasing reliability (and the resulting hilarous radio messages from Alonso)
- Perez vs Ocon
- Punctures at Silverstone
- 'Suck my balls'
- Vettel hitting Hamilton at Baku
- Dan Ricciardo's ever entertaining personality
- Wet qualifying at Monza (other than the wait beforehand)

Contract Announcements:
- Vettel to stay at Ferrari for three more years.
- Raikkonnen to stay at Ferrari for one more year.
- Vandoorne to stay at McLaren for one more year.

Who do we thing will win the WDC when all is said and done? Mercedes' pace differential at Monza was almighty, but everyone all knew it would be beforehand. Singapore is supposed to favour Ferrari. As we get closer to year's end, we get closer to the point when the top teams will have to start taking engine penalties.

Will McLaren dump Honda this week? The split seems ever more likely and there are rumours circulating of them switching to Renault with Toro Rosso taking Honda engines instead.
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scbriml
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:41 am

It's certainly close and exciting for the WDC. I think Mercedes would have to implode spectacularly not to take the WCC (I think Bottas is a stronger second driver than Raikkonen).

Given how close Ferrari were to Mercedes at Spa, the difference at Monza was quite shocking, frankly. Even if Ferrari did have some unspecified issue, Mercedes turned their engines down about 1/3 way into the race. It will be interesting to compare their relative performance in the last few races with the new oil burning limit imposed by the FIA. Rumour has it that Mercedes had already reduced to the new limit at Spa.

Looking at the WDC and the remaining races:

Singapore - everyone saying this is a slam-dunk for Ferrari and a nightmare circuit for Mercedes, but Red Bull might be surprisingly strong here.

Malaysia - power circuit that should favour Mercedes, but rain always a possibility.

Japan - technical circuit that may favour Ferrari.

USA - Mercedes and Hamilton particularly has gone very well here in previous races.

Mexico - not clear to me who will be stronger here.

Brazil - rarely a boring race, rain always a possibility. Could go either way.

Abu Dhabi - strong circuit for Mercedes and Hamilton.

Personally, I'm a Hamilton fan and hope he can win his 4th WDC. Either way, it's very likely to come down to the last race with the title up for grabs.


The biggest potential frustration in what has been a great season so far, is the distinct possibility that engine penalties will have a massive say in deciding the WDC. Does anyone know the current state of play between Ferrari & Mercedes in terms of how many power units each has used?

Speaking of engine penalties, Monza highlighted just how ludicrous the current situation is. After qualifying, Hamilton was the only driver who started the race in the same position he qualified. One driver (can't remember who) actually had a 10-place grid penalty and moved up the grid because other ahead of him had more penalties! Crazy. :crazy:

Next season could be even worse with the reduction from four to three power units.
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TheF15Ace
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:31 am

I'm really hoping for Seb to take the WDC this year. He and Hamilton will probably fight it out all the way to Yas Marina which would make it a great end of the season.

Monza was painful to watch as a Ferrari fan but Daniel Ricciardo had a good race and ''I like em vulnerable'' was hilarious.

I really hope Ferrari regroups in Singapore but on that track they'll have to fight both the Mercs and Red Bull. The rest of the season who knows.

Constructors I see going to Mercedes.

zkojq wrote:
.

Highlights thus far:
- Minimal performance differences between Mercedes and Ferrari
- McLarenHonda's ever decreasing reliability (and the resulting hilarous radio messages from Alonso)
- Perez vs Ocon
- Punctures at Silverstone
- 'Suck my balls'
- Vettel hitting Hamilton at Baku
- Dan Ricciardo's ever entertaining personality
- Wet qualifying at Monza (other than the wait beforehand)


:checkmark:

Contract Announcements:
- Vettel to stay at Ferrari for three more years.
- Raikkonnen to stay at Ferrari for one more year.


Keeping Seb is a no-brainer for Ferrari. As for Kimi I hate to say it but I'm not sure if he has it anymore. He does have good races but it doesn't seem enough to take on Hamilton and Bottas. Maybe it was a one year contract while they look for a replacement for 2019.

scbriml wrote:

Speaking of engine penalties, Monza highlighted just how ludicrous the current situation is. After qualifying, Hamilton was the only driver who started the race in the same position he qualified. One driver (can't remember who) actually had a 10-place grid penalty and moved up the grid because other ahead of him had more penalties! Crazy. :crazy:

Next season could be even worse with the reduction from four to three power units.


Max Verstappen received a 20-place grid penalty for exceeding his quota of power unit components.

Daniel Ricciardo received a 25-place grid penalty for exceeding his quota of power unit components and an unscheduled gearbox change.

Stoffel Vandoorne received a 25-place grid penalty for exceeding his quota of power unit components.

Sergio Pérez received a 5-place grid penalty for an unscheduled gearbox change.

Nico Hülkenberg received a 10-place grid penalty for exceeding his quota of power unit components.

Fernando Alonso received a 35-place grid penalty for exceeding his quota of power unit components.

Carlos Sainz Jr. received a 10-place grid penalty for exceeding his quota of power unit components.

Jolyon Palmer received a 15-place grid penalty for exceeding his quota of power unit components.

Romain Grosjean failed to set a time within the 107% requirement, but received permission from the stewards to start the race.[9] He also received a 5-place grid penalty for an unscheduled gearbox change.

(Source- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Italian_Grand_Prix)

Not sure what's the endgame here.

It has become a bad joke. Well this and the halo system.



Looking further ahead what do you guys think about Porsche expressing interest about making a return to F1?
 
cfischaleck
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:42 am

I agree with what scbriml said, and I like to add that in Malaysia with it's high temperatures tyrewear is a issue too, which should benefit Ferrari. With the exception of Singapore, I think it's a very hard call.

To me, it also seems like with a Mercedes in front it's very hard to pass for a Ferrari, given the additional straight line speed, and Mercedes struggling to follow in dirty air. So whoever is in front after the final pitstops will bring it home.

scbriml wrote:
The biggest potential frustration in what has been a great season so far, is the distinct possibility that engine penalties will have a massive say in deciding the WDC. Does anyone know the current state of play between Ferrari & Mercedes in terms of how many power units each has used?

Speaking of engine penalties, Monza highlighted just how ludicrous the current situation is. After qualifying, Hamilton was the only driver who started the race in the same position he qualified. One driver (can't remember who) actually had a 10-place grid penalty and moved up the grid because other ahead of him had more penalties! Crazy. :crazy:

Next season could be even worse with the reduction from four to three power units.


I think both have 4th parts already installed, but the Ferrari ones have more milage so they are more likely to pick a penalty.

I terms of grid penalties, I think whoever goes out First in FP1 gets the penaly first. So, Riccardo left the pitlane very early in Monza, and he was the first to pick his penalty, beeing sent to the back of the grid. Then the next one picks his, and is sent back, therefore Ric can go one up again. It's really strange because someone who picks a 25 spot grid penalty can end up ahead of someone with a 5 grid penalty

Something else regarding Monza. Grosjean is an absolute disgrace, constantly blaming everything and everyone, crashing his car (the replay showed it was a driver mistake) and then going on about how he told them it was to dangerous. You know what ? you drive the car, if it's too dangerous for you, feel free to park it up!
Massa is also someone who doesn't belong on the grid.

Stroll and Ocon however, really impressive and very mature driving from both. They knew exactly who they were really racing and who not.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:41 pm

A good season and much closer than last year.

For Max, well the frustration could not be more with this young Dutchman. Hopefully better luck next year and then he might reach his potential, otherwise he might end up as his father, Jos.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:19 am

scbriml wrote:
The biggest potential frustration in what has been a great season so far, is the distinct possibility that engine penalties will have a massive say in deciding the WDC. Does anyone know the current state of play between Ferrari & Mercedes in terms of how many power units each has used?


Mercedes

Lewis Hamilton:
Internal Combustion Engine - 4
Turbo Charger - 4
Motor Generator Unit - Heat - 4
Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic - 3
Energy Store - 2
Control Electronics - 2

Valtteri Bottas:
Internal Combustion Engine - 4
Turbo Charger - 4
Motor Generator Unit - Heat - 4
Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic - 3
Energy Store - 2
Control Electronics - 2

Ferrari

Sebastian Vettel:
Internal Combustion Engine - 3
Turbo Charger - 4
Motor Generator Unit - Heat - 3
Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic - 3
Energy Store - 3
Control Electronics - 3

Kimi Raikkonen:
Internal Combustion Engine - 3
Turbo Charger - 4
Motor Generator Unit - Heat - 3
Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic - 3
Energy Store - 3
Control Electronics - 3

The main difference is that Mercedes introduced a new engine prior to the "oil burn limit change", meaning they still get to burn 1.2ltr of oil per race per engine, while Ferrari have to bring that down to 0.9ltr with their last ICE component - Ferrari do get the benefit of additional development time however, as they are introducing their fourth ICE later in the season.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:23 am

With all the discussion of how ugly the 2018 cars will be with the new halo protection device installed, and with the FIA saying stuff like "dont worry, when they are painted in the teams livery they will blend in just fine", the FIA are considering doing an extremely stupid thing.

Making the WDC leaders halo bright yellow.

So not only does it mean bringing mucho attention to something people already hate, it means that teams have to have different parts hanging around in case they end up in the WDC lead, or indeed if they lose that lead...

Once again, the FIA are being dumb.
 
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moo
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:31 am

With regard to grid penalties, you have to have some form of penalty for infractions - or no limits...

Its only going to get worse next year, when the engine limit is dropped to 3.

The problem is, its not just a manufacturer issue, so you cant just say "ok then, dock WCC points instead". A lot of what a driver does can adversely affect the engine - short shifting places massive strain on the gearbox and ICE for example, as the torque requirements go through the roof. If a driver bins the car and knackers the engine in the process, thats not a manufacturers issue, its a driver issue.

Making it a manufacturer issue wouldn't solve the issue of larger teams vs smaller teams either - a larger team may care less about the money involved from winning the WCC, and may instead care more about the prestige involved in their driver winning the WDC (Hamilton won the 2008 WDC, while Ferrari won the WCC - but no one talks about Ferraris win...). Larger teams can offset the WCC prize money with their own investment, while smaller teams rely on the WCC prize money to survive - you have the potential for widening the gap between the front of the field and the rest of the field.

Grid penalties are the only thing that penalises both sides of the team equally. And all teams equally.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:34 am

moo wrote:
With regard to grid penalties, you have to have some form of penalty for infractions - or no limits...


Agreed. But, if there's going to be a limit, let's at least make it a sensible one. It's madness to introduce even more races and reduce the allocation of engines. It would seem to me to be sensible to increase the number to five or possibly even six. Why not make the limit one engine per four races? A 20-race season gives you five engines, but adding a 21st increases the allocation to six. I don't buy the 'cost saving' reason that's given for limiting engines, I've never seen evidence to support the claim.

To have a race where only one driver started in the position he qualified and one driver moving up the grid despite being penalised is just stupid. Personally, I consider it a lot more stupid than having a yellow halo for the WDC leader.
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:00 am

scbriml wrote:
[I don't buy the 'cost saving' reason that's given for limiting engines, I've never seen evidence to support the claim.


Do you forget "qualifying engines" and single use engines? ;)

No matter how costly the current hybrid formula engines are, it beats 40 - 60 engines per car per season that used to be the norm for the top teams...
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:08 pm

Well there is some margin between 4 and 40 engine per season.
I agree with scbriml, at some point having to develop/manufacture with so much endurance requirement must be costlier than having to built twice the number of slightly weaker parts...
Endurance requirement that actually nearly nobody meets anyway, and we have so much penalty, that doesn't make any sense.

What about the McLaren/ToroRosso/Honda/Renault/Sainz deal ??
I think RedBull makes the best move here, having ToroRosso develop with Honda allow the Japanese to work in a better environment and if they manage to progress and deliver a competitive power unit RedBull may be happy to switch and become the top team Honda needs. In the same time they get rid of Sainz which IMO will never become a top driver and make room for a rookie like Gasly (they surelmy prefer to get rid of Kyvat but Renault is not dumb enough).
McLaren another year with Honda seems a non starter for them, no one else would provide engine so... seems to be reasonable choice for them.
And in all of this, can't understand Renault strategy, provide engine to a top chassis manuf in exchange of a driver like Sainz ? At least I hope they will bill it higher than what STR currently pay.
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zkojq
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm

Bottas confirmed for Mercedes for the 2018 season. I think it's quite telling that he only got a one year contract extension. The driver market next year will be very interesting.

scbriml wrote:
Speaking of engine penalties, Monza highlighted just how ludicrous the current situation is. After qualifying, Hamilton was the only driver who started the race in the same position he qualified.

That will happen when the guy who qualifies second has a massive penalty.

TheF15Ace wrote:
I'm really hoping for Seb to take the WDC this year.

As am I. This year's finally the year for Ferrari.....right?

TheF15Ace wrote:
He and Hamilton will probably fight it out all the way to Yas Marina which would make it a great end of the season.

:checkmark:

TheF15Ace wrote:
Monza was painful to watch as a Ferrari fan but Daniel Ricciardo had a good race and ''I like em vulnerable'' was hilarious.

His banter all season, both on and off track, has been brilliant.

TheF15Ace wrote:
Keeping Seb is a no-brainer for Ferrari. As for Kimi I hate to say it but I'm not sure if he has it anymore. He does have good races but it doesn't seem enough to take on Hamilton and Bottas. Maybe it was a one year contract while they look for a replacement for 2019.

I agree that Kimi's performance hasn't been brilliant, but I think it would have been a lot better if it wasn't for the team playing the strategy game to always get Seb ahead of him. Seb says otherwise, but I'm sure that Kimi could have gotten passed him at Hungary if needed, but Kimi stayed in second to better protect Seb (in a damaged car) from Hamilton and Bottas.


TheF15Ace wrote:
Romain Grosjean failed to set a time within the 107% requirement, but received permission from the stewards to start the race.

It's a bit stupid to have the 107% rule apply to people who crash out during quali.

TheF15Ace wrote:
Looking further ahead what do you guys think about Porsche expressing interest about making a return to F1?

After the Honda debacle, I don't think that any engine manufacturer will want to come anywhere near Formula One. Would love to be proven wrong.

cfischaleck wrote:
I terms of grid penalties, I think whoever goes out First in FP1 gets the penaly first. So, Riccardo left the pitlane very early in Monza, and he was the first to pick his penalty, beeing sent to the back of the grid. Then the next one picks his, and is sent back, therefore Ric can go one up again. It's really strange because someone who picks a 25 spot grid penalty can end up ahead of someone with a 5 grid penalty


From what I understand, this system off awarding the penalties based on when the car leaves the pitlane was only introduced at Monza after FP1 itself. Complete madness. What was wrong with the old system of applying penalties in the order that teams notify the FIA that they're about to change the extra parts.

cfischaleck wrote:
Something else regarding Monza. Grosjean is an absolute disgrace, constantly blaming everything and everyone, crashing his car (the replay showed it was a driver mistake) and then going on about how he told them it was to dangerous. You know what ? you drive the car, if it's too dangerous for you, feel free to park it up! .

The funny thing there is that before the crash he allegedly tweeted about how how Charlie should hurry up and begin the session. Promptly deleted after the crash, obviously.

moo wrote:
Grid penalties are the only thing that penalises both sides of the team equally. And all teams equally.


100% agreed, though I think the limit of three engines per season is taking things too far. Also, I think it's a bit rough to apply the penalty when someone's had a failure in quality and it's already cost them. EG when Palmer had the gearbox failure in Q3 at Spa, not only did he come last in the session (had failed to set a time) he also got a grid penalty applied. A bit harsh IMO.

moo wrote:
A lot of what a driver does can adversely affect the engine - short shifting places massive strain on the gearbox and ICE for example, as the torque requirements go through the roof. If a driver bins the car and knackers the engine in the process, thats not a manufacturers issue, its a driver issue.

A thought on this about the 2016 season. Before the Abu Dhabi GP Lewis said at one of the press conferences something how that whenever he won, he wanted to have as bigger gap as possible to the car in second. He said something about how winning the race with a 30 second gap to the car behind was best way to make a statement. Nico said that it didn't concern him and that he preferred to 'turn down the engine' once he was five or six seconds out in front. I wonder if Nico's better reliability throughout the season was a reflection of that.

moo wrote:
No matter how costly the current hybrid formula engines are, it beats 40 - 60 engines per car per season that used to be the norm for the top teams...

:checkmark: It's an important part of keeping costs down.

Grizzly410 wrote:
What about the McLaren/ToroRosso/Honda/Renault/Sainz deal ??

1) As a Force India fan I'm mortified. I quite liked McLaren being back-markers. It gives some of the smaller fish a chance to get points more regularly. How many less points would Haas, Sauber and Williams have scored if McLaren were a competitive team? Yes, I am being a little facetious with this one.

2) With McLaren's interests in mind though it seems very much to be a case of short term gain for long term mediocrity. I know that the past three years are sunk costs, per se, but the fact is that if the rumoured deal goes ahead, they will have absolutely nothing to show for all the pain they've been through over the last three years. Even worse, after all the pain that they've been through it might be Red Bull who gets the competitive engine and works team status. An unacceptable outcome in that sense.

It very much seems to me that they're putting Alonso's interests (not retiring due to mechanical issues every second race) over that of the team. Couldn't they just achieve it by loaning him out to Renault for a couple of years until Honda's engine woes are sorted? Alonso would have a seat in 2018 from where he can comfortably score points and a guaranteed seat back at a top-team. Honda doesn't have to pay his (exorbitant) salary or endure the embarrassment from his team
radio.

Alonso's whole presence at McLaren just hasn't made sense over the past few years. When the Honda deal was announced, McLaren should have stuck with Button and Magnussen, transitioning to Vandoorne and Magnussen for this season. Get Honda to invest the ~30,000,000 euros they pay as Alonso's salary into further engine development.

Since I was a kid, I've basically always supported Alonso, but after the way he couldn't be bothered racing at Spa and retired prematurely I can't say that I'm a fan anymore. Sure, his engine is s#*t, but 100,000+(?) fans paid a lot of money to see him race, not to throw a tantrum and park the car in the garage. I actually think that the FIA should sanction him for that kind of behaviour.

3) The biggest concern about the deal is Honda though. Not the company as such, but the fact is that being dumped by McLaren makes them much closer to leaving F1. As I said above, Honda's mess has surely made entering F1 an awfully unattractive proposition to other engine manufacturers. If Honda can get it right eventually (with Toro Rosso) things won't be so bad, but if 2018 goes badly and they decide to leave, it will be near impossible to get VW, BMW, Ford, JLR or any other prospective manufacturer to join. They'll be far too scared of screwing things up and embarrassing themselves badly. Formula E is a much safer proposition from this point of view.


4) On it's own, I actually like the idea of McLaren having Renault power. I really like how the teams have partnered with different engine manufacturers over time. I love all the resulting names and how each of them instantly defines what era of the team's history you're referring to. McLaren-Honda, Williams-BMW, Sauber-BWM, McLaren-Mercedes, Sauber-Ferrari, Sauber-BMW-Ferrari etc. Although the rivalry between them is strong, part of me wants to see McLaren-Ferrari one day.

Grizzly410 wrote:
In the same time they get rid of Sainz which IMO will never become a top driver and make room for a rookie like Gasly (they surelmy prefer to get rid of Kyvat but Renault is not dumb enough).

A myth constantly perpetuated by the Dutch fans who are pissed off at Max's inability to decisively beat Sainz during their time together at TR. :roll: The fact is that up until Monza this year, he scored points at every race he completed. Sainz will do well at Renault.
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TheF15Ace
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:46 pm

zkojq wrote:


As am I. This year's finally the year for Ferrari.....right?


Image

Fingers crossed


I agree that Kimi's performance hasn't been brilliant, but I think it would have been a lot better if it wasn't for the team playing the strategy game to always get Seb ahead of him. Seb says otherwise, but I'm sure that Kimi could have gotten passed him at Hungary if needed, but Kimi stayed in second to better protect Seb (in a damaged car) from Hamilton and Bottas.


Spot on about Hungary. If Kimi had passed Seb Ferrari could've kissed that 1-2 finish goodbye. He does still have some speed in him, just not enough I guess.

After the Honda debacle, I don't think that any engine manufacturer will want to come anywhere near Formula One. Would love to be proven wrong.


The only way I see Porsche coming in is if they are 110% sure of their engine and they can basically guarantee to not embarrass themselves like Honda. If anyone can come swinging out of the fences like that it would be Porsche but I suppose they'd also need to look at who would be the potential customers for their engines. Doubt they'd get into the game just to supply engines for less than stellar teams anyway.
 
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CollegeAviator
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:53 am

All or nothing for Ferrari at Singapore. They need a 1-2 in order to keep the championship game strong. Anything otherwise, we'd probably see Hamilton romping away with the WDC.
Sepang (with its hot weather) Suzuka and CoTA might favor Ferrari (perhaps Abu Dhabi too), but the rest seem to be Mercedes territory.
 
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moo
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:57 am

zkojq wrote:

moo wrote:
A lot of what a driver does can adversely affect the engine - short shifting places massive strain on the gearbox and ICE for example, as the torque requirements go through the roof. If a driver bins the car and knackers the engine in the process, thats not a manufacturers issue, its a driver issue.

A thought on this about the 2016 season. Before the Abu Dhabi GP Lewis said at one of the press conferences something how that whenever he won, he wanted to have as bigger gap as possible to the car in second. He said something about how winning the race with a 30 second gap to the car behind was best way to make a statement. Nico said that it didn't concern him and that he preferred to 'turn down the engine' once he was five or six seconds out in front. I wonder if Nico's better reliability throughout the season was a reflection of that.


I can see your point, but I'm not convinced - Hamiltons reliability issues last year seem to be in total isolation, in that 2015 wasn't anything like it and we have yet to see such reliability issues this season from Mercedes.

In Belgium, Mercedes did the "stockpiling" thing with him to give him three new engines and several new gear boxes, putting him at the back of the grid.

He lost one of those engines at the next race weekend when it went in practice, and another two races later in spectacular form at Malaysia - there was even speculation that the batch introduced at Spa were inherently faulty, as they had further issues with the third engine. I don't think thats indicative of the problem being the drivers, Hamilton was just getting appalling luck where reliability was concerned.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:03 am

CollegeAviator wrote:
All or nothing for Ferrari at Singapore. They need a 1-2 in order to keep the championship game strong. Anything otherwise, we'd probably see Hamilton romping away with the WDC.
Sepang (with its hot weather) Suzuka and CoTA might favor Ferrari (perhaps Abu Dhabi too), but the rest seem to be Mercedes territory.


I don't get why the US Grand Prix at CoTA is seen as a Ferrari circuit, given that Hamilton has won it in a Mercedes the past three years, and once before that in a McLaren.

Ferrari have *never* been strong at CoTA, coming in 3rd, 5th, 6th, 3rd and 4th in the years its been held at Austin.
 
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CollegeAviator
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:20 am

moo wrote:
CollegeAviator wrote:
All or nothing for Ferrari at Singapore. They need a 1-2 in order to keep the championship game strong. Anything otherwise, we'd probably see Hamilton romping away with the WDC.
Sepang (with its hot weather) Suzuka and CoTA might favor Ferrari (perhaps Abu Dhabi too), but the rest seem to be Mercedes territory.


I don't get why the US Grand Prix at CoTA is seen as a Ferrari circuit, given that Hamilton has won it in a Mercedes the past three years, and once before that in a McLaren.

Ferrari have *never* been strong at CoTA, coming in 3rd, 5th, 6th, 3rd and 4th in the years its been held at Austin.

Maybe, just maybe they make it work this year. One can be positive, right? :)
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:41 pm

Well things have gotten very interesting in the last day or so. It seems that Renault have dumped Red Bull for 2019; forcing both Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing to use Honda engines. :lol: It seems Renault took offence to Red Bull trying to get Toro Rosso to switch to Honda with Red Bull to take the engines in 2019 if they're any good. What an absolute masterstroke from Renault; a perfect response to all the bad press and other trouble Red Bull were giving them in 2015.

On the other hand, Chris Horner said in one of the Sky interviews during the wait for quali at Monza that Red Bull had the 'theoretical' power to veto Renault supplying engines to other teams. But maybe Red Bull approved the supply of engines to McLaren already, forfeiting that right. Oh to be a fly on the wall at the Red Bull Energy Enter this weekend!! :stirthepot:

Sportsmail has learned that the French manufacturers have concluded that their fractious relationship with the Red Bull team has run its course, and will no longer supply them with engines from 2019.

The news has not been made public yet, but can be revealed here ahead of the Singapore Grand Prix weekend.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... -Bull.html
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/908255759036817408

That makes the drivers market very, very interesting. Verstappen's contract with RBR is supposedly completely watertight until the end of 2019, so he's stuck at RBR whether he likes it or not. Ricciardo seems unhappy at Red Bull currently, but he's tied in with them until at least the end of 2018 (and supposedly longer if he wins a race next year - thus deeming the car 'competitive'). If Carlos Sainz is going to Renault, that will probably be dodging a bullet (over being stuck with a Honda powered TR or RBR car).

TheF15Ace wrote:
The only way I see Porsche coming in is if they are 110% sure of their engine and they can basically guarantee to not embarrass themselves like Honda. If anyone can come swinging out of the fences like that it would be Porsche but I suppose they'd also need to look at who would be the potential customers for their engines. Doubt they'd get into the game just to supply engines for less than stellar teams anyway.

I'd like to think that most manufacturers would be able to do a better job technically speaking and developmentally as compared to Honda, especially someone like Porsche. I'd also hope that they'd partner a smaller team (we keep hearing about Force India being for sale, would they be interested in buying?), rather than partnering someone like Red Bull or McLaren (though I do like the sound of McLaren-Porsche).


moo wrote:
I don't think thats indicative of the problem being the drivers, Hamilton was just getting appalling luck where reliability was concerned.

Yeah, you're probably right.
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:19 pm

zkojq wrote:
I'd like to think that most manufacturers would be able to do a better job technically speaking and developmentally as compared to Honda, especially someone like Porsche. I'd also hope that they'd partner a smaller team (we keep hearing about Force India being for sale, would they be interested in buying?), rather than partnering someone like Red Bull or McLaren (though I do like the sound of McLaren-Porsche).


Force India? Maybe. That one seems to be up in the air. As for McLaren, right now some McLaren road cars are butting heads with Porsche in certain segments so I don't know how much that will affect their decision making in F1. Williams-Porsche might bring about a good partnership.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:48 pm

zkojq wrote:
Well things have gotten very interesting in the last day or so. It seems that Renault have dumped Red Bull for 2019; forcing both Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing to use Honda engines. :lol: It seems Renault took offence to Red Bull trying to get Toro Rosso to switch to Honda with Red Bull to take the engines in 2019 if they're any good. What an absolute masterstroke from Renault; a perfect response to all the bad press and other trouble Red Bull were giving them in 2015.



Lots of things can happen between now and 2019. Who knows, maybe the Honda engine will be the best of them all :eyepopping:
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:12 am

zkojq wrote:
Well things have gotten very interesting in the last day or so. It seems that Renault have dumped Red Bull for 2019; forcing both Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing to use Honda engines. :lol: It seems Renault took offence to Red Bull trying to get Toro Rosso to switch to Honda with Red Bull to take the engines in 2019 if they're any good. What an absolute masterstroke from Renault; a perfect response to all the bad press and other trouble Red Bull were giving them in 2015.

On the other hand, Chris Horner said in one of the Sky interviews during the wait for quali at Monza that Red Bull had the 'theoretical' power to veto Renault supplying engines to other teams. But maybe Red Bull approved the supply of engines to McLaren already, forfeiting that right. Oh to be a fly on the wall at the Red Bull Energy Enter this weekend!! :stirthepot:


That "theoretical" power became "no power at all" the moment Toro Rosso switched to Honda and McLaren dropped Honda - under FIA rules Renault must accept McLarens approach because they are under their "3-team maximum supply" limit and the recent "no team left without power" rule changes.

That was why everything hinged on TR making the switch.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:15 am

As for Porsche potentially entering (would love to see them come in), if they do then they should do what Honda should have done in the first place...

The engine formulas change in 2021, with Porsche and potentially McLaren themselves targeting an entry with a new power unit under the new rules - the sensible option would be to get an engine on the dyno in 2018, and then in a pig car on the race track in 2019 and 2020. Get some serious track time outside of the F1 testing limit, and only *then* make the entry for 2021 - theres nothing in the rules against this for new entrants, only existing suppliers.

Porsche or McLaren (as they are not an existing power unit supplier) could enter in 2021 with a fully developed, bug fixed engine with some investment.

Now that would make things interesting...
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:40 pm

moo wrote:
As for Porsche potentially entering (would love to see them come in), if they do then they should do what Honda should have done in the first place...

The engine formulas change in 2021, with Porsche and potentially McLaren themselves targeting an entry with a new power unit under the new rules - the sensible option would be to get an engine on the dyno in 2018, and then in a pig car on the race track in 2019 and 2020. Get some serious track time outside of the F1 testing limit, and only *then* make the entry for 2021 - theres nothing in the rules against this for new entrants, only existing suppliers.

Porsche or McLaren (as they are not an existing power unit supplier) could enter in 2021 with a fully developed, bug fixed engine with some investment.

Now that would make things interesting...


Well, at least we know Porsche can do reliable engines, that can do over 5,000km in one single race.

But to me, Porsche belong to Le Mans, not Formula 1. I kinda understood why they left endurance to focus on electricity (which is the new trendy way forward), but I don't understand why they'd be leaving endurance to go to F1, which uses less advanced technology.
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:01 pm

Meanwhile, on the track in Singapore...

Red Bull dominating free practice. Ricciardo fastest in both FP1 & FP2, Verstappen 2nd fastest in FP2 with Hamilton 3rd. Vettel was 2nd fastest in FP1, but neither Ferrari close in FP2.

If this is a race that Hamilton can't win, I'm sure he'd be very happy to see the Red Bulls lock out the front row in quali and run away with the race. :yes:
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:32 pm

FP3 just finished and things looking very tight at the sharp end...

Verstappen - 1:41.829
Vettel - 1:41.901
Hamilton - 1:41.971

Alonso 4th & Vandoorne 5th. :shock:

Ricciardo only 6th after losing an argument with the wall.

Qualifying looks like it could be one of the best of the year so far. :hyper:
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:21 pm

So quali is over and Seb takes pole :D

1) Sebastian Vettel
2) Max Verstappen
3) Daniel Ricciardo
4) Kimi Raikkonen
5) Lewis Hamilton
6) Valtteri Bottas
7) Nico Hulkenberg
8) Fernando Alonso
9) Stoffel Vandoorne
10) Carlos Sainz

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sing ... ri-953866/
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:19 pm

It's a nice change for Ferrari to be the ones who were sandbagging! What a lap from Vettel!! People often talk about Lewis the greatest at Quali, but Seb's performance was a step beyond anything we've seen from anyone-else all year. Pushing right to the limit at that wall. I don't think I've ever heard someone as excited as Vettel on the team radio after that lap.

Both McLarens have been doing very well all weekend. Shame about Force India doing so badly. I have to say, that oil on the track really made Q1 and Q2 great to watch. Very cool to see the cars slide so much more through the turns.

GrahamHill wrote:
Lots of things can happen between now and 2019. Who knows, maybe the Honda engine will be the best of them all :eyepopping:

and Romain Grosjean might win the 2017 Singapore Grand Prix. ;)
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:20 pm

zkojq wrote:
What a lap from Vettel!!


Indeed, it was the best lap in Q3 at this year's Singapore GP. :wink2:

zkojq wrote:
People often talk about Lewis the greatest at Quali, but Seb's performance was a step beyond anything we've seen from anyone-else all year.


I get that you'er excited, but that's a very debatable claim and pole at a circuit that's very favourable to the Ferrari means little over the season. I'd argue that Hamilton's pole at Monza by 1.2 seconds was at least as impressive.

VET vs VPN into the first corner will be worth watching! :box:

So Hamitlon in 5th, which is probably the best he expected before qualifying started. A damage limitation exercise for him, with a podium looking out of the question without an issue or crash ahead of him.
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:46 pm

Wow!

Ferrari blatantly blaming VER for the massive carnage even before turn 1.
Just....Wow.


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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:13 pm

notaxonrotax wrote:
Wow!

Ferrari blatantly blaming VER for the massive carnage even before turn 1.
Just....Wow.


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Crashstappen's cheer squad out to defend him. I'd say ''wow'' but I'm not surprised.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:26 pm

Oh com'on this wasn't Verstappen's fault. He just got sandwiched between the two Ferarri's. Damn shame too.
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:58 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
Wow!

Ferrari blatantly blaming VER for the massive carnage even before turn 1.
Just....Wow.


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Crashstappen's cheer squad out to defend him. I'd say ''wow'' but I'm not surprised.


Tell me, how was this VER's fault?
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:09 pm

B747forever wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
Wow!

Ferrari blatantly blaming VER for the massive carnage even before turn 1.
Just....Wow.


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Crashstappen's cheer squad out to defend him. I'd say ''wow'' but I'm not surprised.


Tell me, how was this VER's fault?


He should've remembered that his car came with a brake pedal a lot sooner.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:05 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
B747forever wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:

Crashstappen's cheer squad out to defend him. I'd say ''wow'' but I'm not surprised.


Tell me, how was this VER's fault?


He should've remembered that his car came with a brake pedal a lot sooner.


Similarly, Vettel should have remembered that he got a steering wheel that also turns right, and not sandwiched in VER. And I say this as a Ferrari/Vettel fan. It is unfair to lay all blame on Verstappen.
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:48 pm

When you cover someone off, you get in front of them, not drive into the side of them - Verstappen was exactly where he was entitled to be, on the same side of the track as he started on and he wasn't weaving or anything. To say he should have braked is simply stupid, Vettle shouldn't have driven into the side of him and Raikkonen (more of an innocent, but still added to it) should have expected issues going up the other side.

This was Vettels fault for an aggressive move off the line.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:05 pm

I would also suggest that Alonso was the author of his own demise - came storming through, could see a mass of sparks coming off of Vertsappens front wing which should, for an experienced driver, mean *something*, like perhaps that cars got front wing damage...

And then he turns in rather sharply, on a car which is going to have the turning circle of an oil tanker.

Yes, he left space - enough space for an undamaged car, but it was fairly obvious Verstappens car was crippled.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:33 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
Wow!

Ferrari blatantly blaming VER for the massive carnage even before turn 1.
Just....Wow.


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Crashstappen's cheer squad out to defend him. I'd say ''wow'' but I'm not surprised.


Huh?
I don't think I have ever defended VER before in this site.

And really?
If you think this Ferrari sandwich was all to blame on VER you are in desperate need of some glasses.
Go and look for some....oh wait, there lies the problem.

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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:55 am

Seems that the mods deleted both posts before I had a chance to reply to moo. So going purely off what I remember

moo: Vettel was the race leader doesn't matter whether it was by an inch or a mile. He was ahead and he defended his position as required. Not his fault that Verstappen refused to react or reacted too late to being squeezed by two better drivers on both sides. Guess it shows that VER maybe good at dishing it out but when driver's reply in kind he's only capable of finding someone to crash into.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:24 am

TheF15Ace wrote:
Seems that the mods deleted both posts before I had a chance to reply to moo. So going purely off what I remember

moo: Vettel was the race leader doesn't matter whether it was by an inch or a mile. He was ahead and he defended his position as required. Not his fault that Verstappen refused to react or reacted too late to being squeezed by two better drivers on both sides. Guess it shows that VER maybe good at dishing it out but when driver's reply in kind he's only capable of finding someone to crash into.


It was the start of the race, being "race leader" is arrogant at that stage. He wasn't defending anything because there was nothing to defend - Verstappen was entitled to be where he was, Vettel was the one who lunged two thirds of the way across the track to meet him.

Being ahead on a straight grants you no extra leeway under FIA rules - it only counts in corners. If you make a lunge like that, you had better be prepared for the consequences.

Just because you want Vettels babies doesn't mean he is incapable of screwing up - he just did exactly that and took out two other cars in the process!
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:26 am

If you are suggesting that Verstappen should have backed off because an idiot was coming his way with the intent of using their red coloured vehicle as a deadly weapon, then that's a whole other ball game...
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:09 am

moo wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
Seems that the mods deleted both posts before I had a chance to reply to moo. So going purely off what I remember

moo: Vettel was the race leader doesn't matter whether it was by an inch or a mile. He was ahead and he defended his position as required. Not his fault that Verstappen refused to react or reacted too late to being squeezed by two better drivers on both sides. Guess it shows that VER maybe good at dishing it out but when driver's reply in kind he's only capable of finding someone to crash into.


It was the start of the race, being "race leader" is arrogant at that stage. He wasn't defending anything because there was nothing to defend - Verstappen was entitled to be where he was, Vettel was the one who lunged two thirds of the way across the track to meet him.

Being ahead on a straight grants you no extra leeway under FIA rules - it only counts in corners. If you make a lunge like that, you had better be prepared for the consequences.

Just because you want Vettels babies doesn't mean he is incapable of screwing up - he just did exactly that and took out two other cars in the process!


Ah so tell me moo, when can other drivers begin to race. Once Verstappen is clear? When he's a decent length ahead? After he changes to slicks and he has exited the pit-lane?

Bottom line is Verstappen was a moron yesterday who tried to fight the big boys but fucked up and in doing so ruined two other driver's race. Daddy's money, Horner's whining and all the deep throating done by VER's loyal fanboys isn't going to change that.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:16 pm

VET closed the door to VER and didn't see RAI was also there, that's about it.
Thing is, VET had everything to lose in such an aggressive move and... end up losing everything.

After 4 corners, being leader and VET out, not even in dream HAM thought about such scenario.
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:51 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
Ah so tell me moo, when can other drivers begin to race. Once Verstappen is clear? When he's a decent length ahead? After he changes to slicks and he has exited the pit-lane?

Bottom line is Verstappen was a moron yesterday who tried to fight the big boys but fucked up and in doing so ruined two other driver's race. Daddy's money, Horner's whining and all the deep throating done by VER's loyal fanboys isn't going to change that.

Please tell us what exactly it was that Verstappen did wrong other than you not liking him.

There was an incident involving 3 cars (initially) Where each of the participants had opportunities to prevent the accident and in doing so would have significantly reduced their chances of doing well in the race, it seems that none of them wanted to reduce their chances and as a result all the chances were scuppered.
Raikonnen could have stayed further left or braked
Verstappen could have braked
Vettel could have braked or stayed right

They all chose not to do those things (as they were entitled to do) and carnage ensued. I get that you don't like Max but you seem to think that he should be held to a different standard than the "big boys"? Maybe the "big boys" should know not to pick fights that they wont come out of at the other end. Unless of course you want to admit that Vettel can only win if he is protected of course which is maybe what you are advocating?

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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:53 pm

scbriml wrote:
VET vs VPN into the first corner will be worth watching!


Ha ha, you read it here first!

TheF15Ace wrote:
Crashstappen's cheer squad out to defend him. I'd say ''wow'' but I'm not surprised.


Nobody needs to defend him because he did nothing wrong. The race stewards agreed. :shakehead:

TheF15Ace wrote:
Bottom line is Verstappen was a moron yesterday who tried to fight the big boys but fucked up and in doing so ruined two other driver's race.


No, bottom line is VET made a poor start and felt the need to swerve off the racing line to try and block VER. Unfortunately for him RAI made an even better start and VPN had nowhere to go - he already moved left to try and avoid VET and was hit by RAI.

VET's demeanour is post-race interviews said it all. Didn't blame VPN. He knows he threw it away. :banghead:

Grizzly410 wrote:
After 4 corners, being leader and VET out, not even in dream HAM thought about such scenario.


Yep, all his Christmases came at once! :rotfl:

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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:24 pm

scbriml wrote:

Nobody needs to defend him because he did nothing wrong. The race stewards agreed. :shakehead:


The stewards also didn't agree with VER's little sob story in front of the camera about the crash being VET's fault.

scbriml wrote:
VET's demeanour is post-race interviews said it all. Didn't blame VPN. He knows he threw it away. :banghead:


He could have made a song and dance about it in the post-race and it wouldn't have changed a thing now would it.

flipdewaf wrote:
Please tell us what exactly it was that Verstappen did wrong other than you not liking him.

There was an incident involving 3 cars (initially) Where each of the participants had opportunities to prevent the accident and in doing so would have significantly reduced their chances of doing well in the race, it seems that none of them wanted to reduce their chances and as a result all the chances were scuppered.
Raikonnen could have stayed further left or braked
Verstappen could have braked
Vettel could have braked or stayed right

They all chose not to do those things (as they were entitled to do) and carnage ensued. I get that you don't like Max but you seem to think that he should be held to a different standard than the "big boys"? Maybe the "big boys" should know not to pick fights that they wont come out of at the other end. Unless of course you want to admit that Vettel can only win if he is protected of course which is maybe what you are advocating?

Fred


Except it has nothing to do with me liking Verstappen or not. He seems to forget that it's not a one lap race the moment a faster driver gets ahead. Happened in Hungary and happened in Singapore. What do you suggest drivers do when pressed? Crashing into them is not it.
 
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:47 pm

Next year's the year for Ferrari....as always. :banghead:

Some thoughts on the race:
- Bottas's pace was awful and has been the whole weekend. I swear that with every weekend that passes, he improves Rosberg's legacy. He got overtaken by Jolyon Palmer and was stuck behind him for quite a long time and never managed to get passed Danny Ric.
- Carlos Sainz really proved what I was saying above about how good yet severely underrated he is.
- Where did Red Bull's race pace go? They were great all weekend, I know that Ricciardo had a gearbox issue in the final laps, but the delta the Lewis was massive throughout the race (even despite the safety cars).
- Great race from Jolyon Palmer, inspite of sub-optimal strategy from Renault's pitwall. The decision to double-stack both cars a lap late wasn't a good one.
- Sauber were very disappointing this weekend. This was supposed to be one of their least-hopeless circuits; I expected them to use an alternate strategy on one car and get close to the points, but they weren't even close. Pascal had two too many pit-stops IIRC.
- As a KMAG fan, I'm really pissed off at the points differential between him and RoGro. Romain has more than twice as many points as Kevin, but this isn't at all reflective of their relative performances. Whenever KMAG does a great race and beats Romain, it's at a circuit where Haas is hopeless and none of them get points or KMAG has a dnf whilst Romain picks up a point or two. Likewise, whenever Kevin makes a mistakes it always seems to be at a time that counts, whereas Romain seems to make all his (many) mistakes in Free Practice or Quali sessions. Overall, I do think that RoGro has been doing a very marginally better job this year than KMAG, but the points tell another story. Anyway, KMAG raced really well and we know from the way that he kept the throttle wide open during his battle with Massa and the second pink car that he has massive balls.
- Hell will freeze over before Hulkenberg gets a podium in F1.
- Kvyat is completely hopeless. His performance this weekend was exactly the opposite of what he gave us last year.

scbriml wrote:
VET vs VPN into the first corner will be worth watching! :box:

You weren't wrong! :grumpy:

TheF15Ace wrote:
Crashstappen's cheer squad out to defend him. I'd say ''wow'' but I'm not surprised.

What pisses me off the most is that some of them are blaming Kimi for the pile up. :banghead:

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TheF15Ace wrote:
Not his fault that Verstappen refused to react or reacted too late to being squeezed by two better drivers on both sides. Guess it shows that VER maybe good at dishing it out but when driver's reply in kind he's only capable of finding someone to crash into.

I'm not going to blame Verstappen for the incident, but I really don't feel particularly sorry for him. He has spoilt enough other drivers races in first lap incidents throughout his F1 career, that I can't help but feel there's a little karma here.

TheF15Ace wrote:
Daddy's money, Horner's whining and all the deep throating done by VER's loyal fanboys isn't going to change that.

Another thing that pisses me off is how much the Dutch VER fanboys have been hating on Danny Ric in certain online forums this year. It's nearly as annoying as all their moaning about how he has a watertight contract with RBR to the end of 2019 and can't jump ship until then.

Grizzly410 wrote:
VET closed the door to VER and didn't see RAI was also there, that's about it.
Thing is, VET had everything to lose in such an aggressive move and... end up losing everything.

It's so bloody frustrating. This year was going to be our year; 10 years after Kimi made us oh so proud. I hope Hamilton has a DNF or an otherwise awful race soon so that the championship goes right down to the final laps at Abu Dhabi. The Mercedes dominance can't be allowed to continue, though in saying that, I wouldn't be entirely dissatisfied if Vettel and Hamilton took each other out enough in the remaining races that Bottas gets the WDC.
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flipdewaf
Posts: 1892
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:48 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
Except it has nothing to do with me liking Verstappen or not. He seems to forget that it's not a one lap race the moment a faster driver gets ahead. Happened in Hungary and happened in Singapore. Either way Vettel was the one who ended up paying for it.
But in that case they all forgot it's not a one lap race, Vettel should have also realised this, as should Raikkonen and equally pulled out but for some reason you still think Verstappen is at fault and not the others?

You will note however that the driver who was leading after lap one was also leading at the end of the race, the same applied to second place, so while it might not technically be a one lap race the fact that everyone went round like a train after that shows that even in a wet race at Singapore getting in front in the first corners means more than the rest of the race combined.

Fred
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scbriml
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:45 pm

Firstly, apologies for using the wrong code for Verstappen (VPN instead of VER!)

zkojq wrote:
What pisses me off the most is that some of them are blaming Kimi for the pile up.


I certainly don't think he's to blame, but he wouldn't have tagged VER if VET hadn't moved so far to the left.

zkojq wrote:
I'm not going to blame Verstappen for the incident, but I really don't feel particularly sorry for him.


Agreed. After watching his onboard video of the start, it's clear that the contact with RAI was tyre to tyre which span RAI into VET. From what I can see, VER didn't actually touch VET.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGLYhxJf5DE

zkojq wrote:
This year was going to be our year


Who told you that? :o

zkojq wrote:
The Mercedes dominance can't be allowed to continue


It will unless Ferrari or Red Bull can make a significant step forward. With a lead of over 100 points in the WCC, Mercedes would have to implode to not win it.
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notaxonrotax
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:41 pm

TheF15Ace wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Nobody needs to defend him because he did nothing wrong. The race stewards agreed. :shakehead:


The stewards also didn't agree with VER's little sob story in front of the camera about the crash being VET's fault.

scbriml wrote:
VET's demeanour is post-race interviews said it all. Didn't blame VPN. He knows he threw it away. :banghead:


He could have made a song and dance about it in the post-race and it wouldn't have changed a thing now would it.

flipdewaf wrote:
Please tell us what exactly it was that Verstappen did wrong other than you not liking him.

There was an incident involving 3 cars (initially) Where each of the participants had opportunities to prevent the accident and in doing so would have significantly reduced their chances of doing well in the race, it seems that none of them wanted to reduce their chances and as a result all the chances were scuppered.
Raikonnen could have stayed further left or braked
Verstappen could have braked
Vettel could have braked or stayed right

They all chose not to do those things (as they were entitled to do) and carnage ensued. I get that you don't like Max but you seem to think that he should be held to a different standard than the "big boys"? Maybe the "big boys" should know not to pick fights that they wont come out of at the other end. Unless of course you want to admit that Vettel can only win if he is protected of course which is maybe what you are advocating?

Fred


Except it has nothing to do with me liking Verstappen or not. He seems to forget that it's not a one lap race the moment a faster driver gets ahead. Happened in Hungary and happened in Singapore. What do you suggest drivers do when pressed? Crashing into them is not it.


Blaming it all on Verstappen was simply not correct, and that was my whole point.
The stewards agreed with that too.

I am not sure why you think I am a VER fanboy, I am actually a registered Hamilton fan.
You seem to hate VER and anybody not agreeing with you is a VER fanboy? Is that how it works?

Point of this race is, VET has dealt himself a huge blow by taking such risk and eventually spinning off and I am not sure he will recover from this; in 2017.

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TheF15Ace
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Re: F1 2017: Spain, Monaco, Canada, Azerbaijan, Austria, UK, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Singapore

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:29 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
But in that case they all forgot it's not a one lap race, Vettel should have also realised this, as should Raikkonen and equally pulled out but for some reason you still think Verstappen is at fault and not the others?

You will note however that the driver who was leading after lap one was also leading at the end of the race, the same applied to second place, so while it might not technically be a one lap race the fact that everyone went round like a train after that shows that even in a wet race at Singapore getting in front in the first corners means more than the rest of the race combined.

Fred


Fair enough. Since the stewards ruled it a race incident we are now down to our opinions. My opinion: Verstappen should've backed off a lot sooner when the Ferrari's tried to pincer him because he saw them coming. If he did all three would've gone into the turn and continued racing. And I'm sticking to that. In the end Max and Kimi walked away with a DNF while Seb possibly lost his championship so even if I'm right it doesn't mean much.

As for the rest of the race once Hamilton was in front the two people who had the best chance of taking him (VET and VER) were out so his victory was given. Though Hamilton being in front would've been questionable if the crash in the start didn't happen to begin with. As nice as it would've been to see there was no way Daniel could've gotten past Hamilton on Sunday.

scbriml wrote:

After watching his onboard video of the start, it's clear that the contact with RAI was tyre to tyre which span RAI into VET. From what I can see, VER didn't actually touch VET.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGLYhxJf5DE



He didn't VER and RAI collided which sent Kimi into Seb. Kimi continued to slide until he hit VER at the turn which sent him into Alonso.

zkojq wrote:
He has spoilt enough other drivers races in first lap incidents throughout his F1 career, that I can't help but feel there's a little karma here


Meh I'm not seeing the karma on this one. It was just another DNF to a long list of DNFs.

zkojq wrote:
Another thing that pisses me off is how much the Dutch VER fanboys have been hating on Danny Ric in certain online forums this year. It's nearly as annoying as all their moaning about how he has a watertight contract with RBR to the end of 2019 and can't jump ship until then.


Still not nearly as annoying as being heralded as the second coming of Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton every time he makes an aggressive move but changing the narrative to poor hopeless baby when it happens to him.

zkojq wrote:
It's so bloody frustrating. This year was going to be our year


There's always next year :banghead:

zkojq wrote:
The Mercedes dominance can't be allowed to continue, though in saying that, I wouldn't be entirely dissatisfied if Vettel and Hamilton took each other out enough in the remaining races that Bottas gets the WDC.


I can't believe I'm saying this but if it came down to it I'd rather see Hamilton win because at least the man can drive. Bottas on the other hand seems to have settled for being the number 2 driver for the rest of the season.

notaxonrotax wrote:
Blaming it all on Verstappen was simply not correct, and that was my whole point.


Verstappen had no problem blaming it all on Vettel.

notaxonrotax wrote:
I am not sure why you think I am a VER fanboy, I am actually a registered Hamilton fan.
You seem to hate VER and anybody not agreeing with you is a VER fanboy? Is that how it works?


Well you're going to have to excuse me but what I saw during and after the race was plenty of Verstappen's fans taking boy wonder's words as gospel and throwing Vettel and occasionally Kimi under the bus while saying Max was just an innocent bystander.

Since the stewards ruled it a race incident I gave my opinion in the beginning of this post. You probably won't agree with it but I'm not gonna argue with you on it because it won't change what happened.

notaxonrotax wrote:
I am not sure he will recover from this; in 2017


Looking at the races left I'm pessimistic about his chances as well.

And since you are a Hamilton fan congrats on the win. I thought of a few possibilities of how Singapore might end. None of them included Hamilton finishing first.

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