PanHAM
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:27 pm

I just imagine Mrs. Merkel and Mr. Schulz Holding an election rallie in the 17th State, /Mallorca) ((sorry dear Spanish friends)). Lucily, they would never do that as both of them have good manners and as it is highly unusual for foreign heads of states to hold politrival rallies in foreign countries.

I said before that the German government was too lenient in allowwing that man to agitate aginst Germany IN Germany, I hopethat this will happen never again. Last time I checked, Germany was a sovereign state and when foreign dignitaries hold speeches in foreign countries they usually address t People of their host Country and not theor 5th column.

The behaviour of Erdogan is outrageous and and that was a polite Statement. Besides that, your post is Sub Zero, not worth answering.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm

Tkfan wrote:
3. Issues/Tensions Germany-Turkey

Part I
Banning Turkish Politicians to rally in Germany (Europe)


And here I thought you are interested in objective fact, but you invent an imaginary ban on Turkish politicians being at rally's in Germany.
Since Turkey frequently denies foreign politicians traveling to ralley's entry into Turkey, recently Erdinc Hayrula comes to mind, it has no business demanding such in any case.

it is very common in democracies that there are rallies held be it an election or a referendum. When you have voters abroad, and who may influence the outcome, than its very natural that you go to them and influence/convince them.


Since voting and holding political ralley's are citizen rights, that always and exclusively happens at the discression of the host government. Voting is a state function, and you always need the host counties permission to execute state functions on foreign soil. If Erdogan decides to put capital punishment on a ballot, the permission to hold the vote on German ground will for example be denied.
In priciple this is also why a Turkish cop can't arrest anyone in Germany too. Unless he got permission somehow.
There are not many russian ralley's in the US either.

Germany and Germans being anti-Erdogan had all of a sudden an issue with this democratic practice.


Democratic or not, there is neither need nor motivation for the German government to support anti-democratic tendencies like the thinly veiled removal of the state of law in Turkey.
For the US members to easily understand what just happened in Turkey, imagine an ammendment to the constitution giving the President and ruling party the right to effectively hire and fire even supreme Court judges at will. How would you like that....

Not only that they wanted to influence the Turkish voting


Let me get this straight, you complain the Turkish politicans can't rally in front of Turkish citizens, of which 25% are German citizens too, in Germany, but complain that German politicans in Germany say something about Turkish politics?

In the 80/90ies we were used to hear "Türken raus" "Ausländer raus" now it is very fashionable and common to hear "Go back to your Sultan" etc.


That should be limited to those that voted in favor of the new constitution, that is unfair towards everybody else.

The only Hero and Democrat in this Theater was Deniz Baykal, a opponent CHP politician, who refused to come to Germany although he was not only allowed but also invited by Germans.


He was invited by the CHP Bund Baden-Württemberg e. V., so he was very likely invited by Turkish citizens living in Germany, not by Germans.

So far the German interference in Turkish votings.
Best of all, the leader of the Green party activly promoting to vote against Erdogan.


So, not just does he have a vested interest since he has Turkish ancestry and held Turkish citizenship until 1983, he also isn't part of the German government. Hence he can say whatever he wants to say.

He said not allowing them to speak to their people are Nazi methods.


You are leaving out the "I though nationalsocialism has passed in Germany", which is basically calling Germany an Nazi state.

But please, do continue with your totally biased facts....

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:53 pm

Tkfan wrote:
3. Issues/Tensions Germany-Turkey

Part I
Banning Turkish Politicians to rally in Germany (Europe)

It is very common in democracies that there are rallies held be it an election or a referendum. When you have voters abroad, and who may influence the outcome, than its very natural that you go to them and influence/convince them.

Germany and Germans being anti-Erdogan had all of a sudden an issue with this democratic practice. Not only that they wanted to influence the Turkish voting they also enflamed tensions between Germans and Turkish Migrants and together with it anti-Turkish sentiments.

In the 80/90ies we were used to hear "Türken raus" "Ausländer raus" now it is very fashionable and common to hear "Go back to your Sultan" etc.
Thats dramatic. Previously it was a slogan of a little political groupe/ideologie now it is also used even by leftist.

The only Hero and Democrat in this Theater was Deniz Baykal, a opponent CHP politician, who refused to come to Germany although he was not only allowed but also invited by Germans. :thumbsup:
So far the German interference in Turkish votings.
Best of all, the leader of the Green party activly promoting to vote against Erdogan.

Erdogans Nazi accusion.
I have watched several times the video. There is no scene where he said Merkel is a Nazi or Germans are Nazi.
He said not allowing them to speak to their people are Nazi methods. Funny that some people or politicians take it personally. If I am not a Nazi I wouldn't feel adressed. Psychology 101 :smile:


I have a big issue with this line of argumentation.
1. Turkey has to observe the rules in a guest nation. If he wants to speak to German-Turks in Germany, Germany has the right to refuse. That has nothing to do with democracy. And the way he did it in The Netherlands was a provocation in Dutch - Turkish relationship.
2. Calling this a democratic process is to counter the conclusions of international observers. Erdogan's government had the Turkish authorities working for his cause, so that has nothing to do with democracy (more autocratic, which Erdogan has become) where there are two sides in this case that have the same exposure to let the people decide for them selves.
Furthermore getting all these votes abroad has also something distasteful. Yes, they have voting power but haven't the people which are living in Turkey, and thus are going to live with the consequences of the choice, have a more moral say in this how their country is run? People abroad tend to be more conservative (not just for Turks, Dutch emigrated to Australia or Canada in the 50's are also much more conservative), so Erdogan was after the conservative votes, it is his right to, but not very tasteful nor democratic.

For the rest of your post, I clearly stated that I am against any discrimination, that said, I totally don't understand how anyone enjoying a free society is going to vote for someone like Erdogan.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Tkfan wrote:
2. EU paymants and refugee deal
Just to remember, EU agreed to pay 4.5billion € between 2014-2020. So far, in 3 years just 170million € are payed.
This money is not just transferred to Goverments Budget but to projects, NGOs, associations to faciliate/promote/strengthen democratic, european etc. Values and structure or humanitarian infrastructure etc.
Its really strange that so far they dont develope or find, neither European institutions nor Turkish partners, to develope any projects or initiatives.
There are lots of European institutions, foundations in Turkey.
Most German parties have foundations, afaik there are at least 4 of them in Turkey.
So if they dont trust govermental or other turkish institutions/NGOs, there are plenty European institutions in Turkey. Well if they really intend to do what they say ;)


Ok, look, I think they should stop these payments to Turkey. The current Turkey has no intentions to join the EU and is moving away from European value's, that is fine their choice, but as with everything, choices have consequences and thus this is one. 4,5bn was factored in the budget, Turkey has no right to it and they have spoiled their 'right' to it.

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
.....

And those giant prisons are partly built with EU money, that is the ultimate irony here.

I am not surprised :lol:
Its not only ultimate irony, its also ultimate hypocrisy.

Like SPD leader Martin Schulz,
Last year as EU Commissioner, he advocated Turkey/Erdogan and wanted the EU leaders to fulfill their duties towards Turkey and also unblock the payments, today as he is in an elections campaign, and knowing that he wont win, says he would stop EU talks and stop payments.
Hypocrisy at its best.

With EUs obligations towards Turkey due refugee-deal.
Leave visa-freedom aside, was not really intended by EU.
So far, my understanding is 3billion € untill end of 2017 and another 3 billion in 2018.

First tranche of 3b€ is split 2b € from EU budget and 1b € from member states.
So far only few members payed in two years!!!
2+X billion still missing and no sign that it will be payed.
Here also like said above, if they do not want to pay directly to Goverment, there are plenty humanitarian organisations. If they also dont trust these turkish organisations, they can do it with their owns or with international Red Cross or UN.
There are plenty possibilities if really intended.


But thats all not my concern.
Its totally unacceptable that they make the public believe Turkey receives billions of aid.
The anger of the people is growing when they think their lovely tax-payments are going to Erdogan that he can built his 1000-room palace.
Its really poisoning the atmosphere here in Germany and maybe all of Europe.


Wait and see if the EU pays to the NGO's, the vote is not in yet, so way do you make these kinds of conclusions?

What I have seen from you till now is defending Erdogan's government and trashing the EU. Numouris factually wrong things and you do victimise Turkey on many occasions without showing any criticism towards Erdogan's government. That is fine, but don't say you are impartial.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:24 pm

I have read now every single post of me, I havent found anything where I have defended or advocated Erdogan.
If you think not bashing Erdogan is a sign I am pro Erdogan than you really miss something or getting in the same dilemma like this Mayor in Niedersachsen.

Someone mentioned it in this Thread. Erdogan is not Turkey. But it seems some people already adopted this thinking.
I tried as neutral and unbiased as possible to give a picture of Turkeys (economic) outlook (as this is the only thing I can comment, and cross-check with western data). Living in Germany, I cant speak much about social or political live.
Actually I gave up my hopes in Turkey when AKP came to power as I am against mixing politics with religion. Thus, in this period I visited Turkey only 4x for approximately 1week to 10 days and only for touristic purposes.
Having had a big Boxer Dog, I have been more to France than Turkey the last 15 years :lol:

My purpose of this thread is to evaluate why Germans/Europeans/Westerners, Media, Politicians are so obsessed with Erdogan and are poisoning the atmosphere here.
If Erdogan is playing a game, you dont need to play too. It needs two to Tango.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:43 pm

I have read all of your post and it seems you are biased against the EU (not pro Erdogan or Turkey), I have posted what I think about it and also about Erdogan's Turkey. And Erdogan's Turkey has no place within the EU. But that is on the conto of Turkey, not the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I have read all of your post and it seems you are biased against the EU (not pro Erdogan or Turkey), I have posted what I think about it and also about Erdogan's Turkey. And Erdogan's Turkey has no place within the EU. But that is on the conto of Turkey, not the EU.


Thats true. I am not a big fan of EU in its current form.

I wrote in the opening post, that all this quarrel between EU-Turkey, Netherlands -Turkey, Germany-Turkey is a ballgame.
After the Dutch elections the tensions calmed, at least I havent seen or read anything anti-Dutch in Turkish Media. I think same will happen after German elections.
But meanwhile, I am afraid the tensions will reach an unbearable point.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:56 am

Tkfan wrote:
I have read now every single post of me, I havent found anything where I have defended or advocated Erdogan.


.... spreading lies like Turkish politicians being banned from attending political rallay´s in Germany, or that Deniz Baykal was invited by Germans is a pretty telling which site of factual statements you seem to err on.

hats true. I am not a big fan of EU in its current form.


me neither, i think any mention of capital punishment, any denied visit to EU troops in country or any denial of consular rights for EU citizens should lead to an very clear: "You are dead to us".

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:04 am

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I have read all of your post and it seems you are biased against the EU (not pro Erdogan or Turkey), I have posted what I think about it and also about Erdogan's Turkey. And Erdogan's Turkey has no place within the EU. But that is on the conto of Turkey, not the EU.


Thats true. I am not a big fan of EU in its current form.

I wrote in the opening post, that all this quarrel between EU-Turkey, Netherlands -Turkey, Germany-Turkey is a ballgame.
After the Dutch elections the tensions calmed, at least I havent seen or read anything anti-Dutch in Turkish Media. I think same will happen after German elections.
But meanwhile, I am afraid the tensions will reach an unbearable point.


I would say, after the Turkish referendum thinks calmed down a bit, but on the diplomatic level it is still way below freezing, like I said, not even the new Dutch ambassador is welcome. But much much more important, the tension between Gülen supporters and Erdogan supporters in Turkey has become a major cleft among my fellow Dutch from Turkish descent. And that is for me unacceptable and that is what the Erdogan government has done with all his accusations towards Gülen and his supporters. Things are calming down a bit, but that is not thanks to Erdogan and his ways. As for Germany, I think Erdogan will try to provoke Germany running up to the general elections. In this case Erdogan is to blame for at least 75% he doesn't accept the EU way, in Europe.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:14 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
I have read now every single post of me, I havent found anything where I have defended or advocated Erdogan.


.... spreading lies like Turkish politicians being banned from attending political rallay´s in Germany, or that Deniz Baykal was invited by Germans is a pretty telling which site of factual statements you seem to err on.

hats true. I am not a big fan of EU in its current form.


me neither, i think any mention of capital punishment, any denied visit to EU troops in country or any denial of consular rights for EU citizens should lead to an very clear: "You are dead to us".

best regards
Thomas


The only link in english about Deniz Baykal I could find so far.
https://www.dailysabah.com/eu-affairs/2 ... -ministers

So German Authorities allow "No" campaigns and cancel "Yes" campaigns, sounds like a hidden ban?

I always thought being pro-Erdogan is a sign Turkish Migrants can not intergrate and should go back to their Sultan, but Anti-Erdoganist are well integrated and are part of Germany?? The inviting CHP Bund Baden-Wurtemberg e.V. is a assosiation in Turkey?
Believe me >90% CHP supporters in Germany are well integrated and holding a German passport. Or do they need to be Arian too??

Such thoughts are dangerous, be careful.
It resembles AfD leaders bold statement like the "German" Minister for Intergration should be eliminated in Anatolia.


As for EU, I dont think Erdogan or Turkey are responsible for EUs clumsiness.
For me it is still not a political Union but a club where you can lobby for your economic interests.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I have read all of your post and it seems you are biased against the EU (not pro Erdogan or Turkey), I have posted what I think about it and also about Erdogan's Turkey. And Erdogan's Turkey has no place within the EU. But that is on the conto of Turkey, not the EU.


Thats true. I am not a big fan of EU in its current form.

I wrote in the opening post, that all this quarrel between EU-Turkey, Netherlands -Turkey, Germany-Turkey is a ballgame.
After the Dutch elections the tensions calmed, at least I havent seen or read anything anti-Dutch in Turkish Media. I think same will happen after German elections.
But meanwhile, I am afraid the tensions will reach an unbearable point.


I would say, after the Turkish referendum thinks calmed down a bit, but on the diplomatic level it is still way below freezing, like I said, not even the new Dutch ambassador is welcome. But much much more important, the tension between Gülen supporters and Erdogan supporters in Turkey has become a major cleft among my fellow Dutch from Turkish descent. And that is for me unacceptable and that is what the Erdogan government has done with all his accusations towards Gülen and his supporters. Things are calming down a bit, but that is not thanks to Erdogan and his ways. As for Germany, I think Erdogan will try to provoke Germany running up to the general elections. In this case Erdogan is to blame for at least 75% he doesn't accept the EU way, in Europe.


I try to differentiate between EU-Turkey relations and EU itself. My opinion is independant of EU-Turkey relations.

EU in its current form has no more so much to say in world politics like it had 15-20 years ago. Having now so many members, and not being "united" in many issues, makes them weaker than they are. Add to this that Brexit talks lamed this whole process even more.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:56 pm

Tkfan wrote:
The only link in english about Deniz Baykal I could find so far.


your alarm bells should start ringing if you can only find a single source, which is a dead on indicator you are reading nonsense.

So, lets see, who and what is dailysabah?

They brought us gems like the US government trying to have Erdogan murdered: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... 75739f6226
Jon Biden personally voting yes to have the FBI arrest scientists that did not believe the official 9/11 story. http://www.sabah.com.tr/dunya/2016/01/2 ... ere-destek

Can you say "Fake news"? Did i mention that Erdogans son in law used to own/run (?) that Paper? It belongs to the Çalık Holding, which was financed by two state owned banks, with a 25% share of Qatar investments, that was lobbied by who? Erdogan himself. And somehow miraculously, Çalık got it for the minimum bid, as he just happened to be the only bidder......

Oh yes, Daily Sabah/Sabah is exactly what i would turn to find unbiased information about the Turkish government......

So German Authorities allow "No" campaigns and cancel "Yes" campaigns, sounds like a hidden ban?


No, sounds like the inviting entity for one side understands that fire codes and such have to match the intended number of people they expect, while Erdogans Propaganda Department doesn´t. Well, if they ever wanted those ralley´s to happen in the first place that is.

Somehow the "Yes" people also never changed the Venue, despite being notified that they could, never took up the very official and public statement that they can do it in the Turkish Konsulate during the G20 summit and never appealed any of those decisions, which is seriously just an matter of one hour and you don´t even need to bring a lawyer if time is an issue.

It smells a lot like AKP stormtroopers deliberately picking unsuitable venues to get those denied over safety and/or security issues, so they could complain how evil, evil, evil Germany is. In Gaggenau and Collogne they even pulled a better stunt, they UETD simply lied about the purpose of the event, at one time calling it a, rather small, UETD formation meeting, the other time making the, non-binding btw, reservation for a theater play. Oh, and of course the UETD is what? A propaganda organisation for Erdogan, funded in part by the Turkish Government..... http://www.dw.com/en/the-lobby-behind-t ... a-17652516

Believe me >90% CHP supporters in Germany are well integrated and holding a German passport. *naziquip deleted*


I would think that an organisation that is "well integrated" would have a German version of their website. You can also be fairly certain that those members would be dual passport holders, considering that a Rally doesn´t make any sense at all if the people that show up can´t vote anyways. Unless you can proof the opposite, i see no indication whatsoever that he wasn´t invited by Turkish voters, may they hold a German passport too or not.

Such thoughts are dangerous, be careful.


Removing the state of Law is dangerous. Thoughts are not that dangerous, if you have a proper constitution, you know.. one where the government doesn´t get to fire judges that make the "wrong" decissions....

For me it is still not a political Union but a club where you can lobby for your economic interests.


Doh! The EU is an economic union, that is the very foundation of it.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
The only link in english about Deniz Baykal I could find so far.


your alarm bells should start ringing if you can only find a single source, which is a dead on indicator you are reading nonsense.

So, lets see, who and what is dailysabah?

They brought us gems like the US government trying to have Erdogan murdered: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... 75739f6226
Jon Biden personally voting yes to have the FBI arrest scientists that did not believe the official 9/11 story. http://www.sabah.com.tr/dunya/2016/01/2 ... ere-destek

Can you say "Fake news"? Did i mention that Erdogans son in law used to own/run (?) that Paper? It belongs to the Çalık Holding, which was financed by two state owned banks, with a 25% share of Qatar investments, that was lobbied by who? Erdogan himself. And somehow miraculously, Çalık got it for the minimum bid, as he just happened to be the only bidder......

Oh yes, Daily Sabah/Sabah is exactly what i would turn to find unbiased information about the Turkish government......

So German Authorities allow "No" campaigns and cancel "Yes" campaigns, sounds like a hidden ban?


No, sounds like the inviting entity for one side understands that fire codes and such have to match the intended number of people they expect, while Erdogans Propaganda Department doesn´t. Well, if they ever wanted those ralley´s to happen in the first place that is.

Somehow the "Yes" people also never changed the Venue, despite being notified that they could, never took up the very official and public statement that they can do it in the Turkish Konsulate during the G20 summit and never appealed any of those decisions, which is seriously just an matter of one hour and you don´t even need to bring a lawyer if time is an issue.

It smells a lot like AKP stormtroopers deliberately picking unsuitable venues to get those denied over safety and/or security issues, so they could complain how evil, evil, evil Germany is. In Gaggenau and Collogne they even pulled a better stunt, they UETD simply lied about the purpose of the event, at one time calling it a, rather small, UETD formation meeting, the other time making the, non-binding btw, reservation for a theater play. Oh, and of course the UETD is what? A propaganda organisation for Erdogan, funded in part by the Turkish Government..... http://www.dw.com/en/the-lobby-behind-t ... a-17652516

Believe me >90% CHP supporters in Germany are well integrated and holding a German passport. *naziquip deleted*


I would think that an organisation that is "well integrated" would have a German version of their website. You can also be fairly certain that those members would be dual passport holders, considering that a Rally doesn´t make any sense at all if the people that show up can´t vote anyways. Unless you can proof the opposite, i see no indication whatsoever that he wasn´t invited by Turkish voters, may they hold a German passport too or not.

Such thoughts are dangerous, be careful.


Removing the state of Law is dangerous. Thoughts are not that dangerous, if you have a proper constitution, you know.. one where the government doesn´t get to fire judges that make the "wrong" decissions....

For me it is still not a political Union but a club where you can lobby for your economic interests.


Doh! The EU is an economic union, that is the very foundation of it.

best regards
Thomas


Instead of telling what Sabah is or who owns it, bring a more "reliable" source. That was the only link I could find in english. Maybe there were no news in German media because it looks not very favourable??

The content of story is nevertheless true.


I know the history of EU. Thank you for hinting.
The EEC turned to EC in 1993 as a matter of transforming not only to be an economic club, but also to be a political Union.
Because of the great success it eventually renamed itself EU in 2009.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:23 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Maybe there were no news in German media because it looks not very favourable??


Ah, more lies from your side. If you did read German media, you would a) know it was well covered and b) your stuff is pure fabrication.

The content of story is nevertheless true.


The story is, but they fail to give the context, which i just provided to you. Cheap propaganda nonsense for the gullible.

But since your reply is so short, i take it you agree with everything else i wrote. Which basically concludes your threat in a way: Where do you get objective news about Turkey? Not from you..... because objective comes with context, which you, deliberately i would bet, fail to mention.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:00 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
Maybe there were no news in German media because it looks not very favourable??


Ah, more lies from your side. If you did read German media, you would a) know it was well covered and b) your stuff is pure fabrication.

The content of story is nevertheless true.


The story is, but they fail to give the context, which i just provided to you. Cheap propaganda nonsense for the gullible.

But since your reply is so short, i take it you agree with everything else i wrote. Which basically concludes your threat in a way: Where do you get objective news about Turkey? Not from you..... because objective comes with context, which you, deliberately i would bet, fail to mention.

best regards
Thomas


I didn't answer two the rest because this thread is turning to a pro/anti Erdogan or pro/anti EU thread. This is and was not my intention.

As for the story about Deniz Baykal, I only found news in Turkish, SabahDaily was the only I found in English.
If you have a German link to Deniz Baykals refusal for a referendum-rally, I will happily appreciate and read it.
FYI I dont like/read Sabah, nor did I liked or read it when it was owned by others.

Thank you for the Washington Post link. Quite interesting story.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:11 pm

Tkfan wrote:
I try to differentiate between EU-Turkey relations and EU itself. My opinion is independant of EU-Turkey relations.

EU in its current form has no more so much to say in world politics like it had 15-20 years ago. Having now so many members, and not being "united" in many issues, makes them weaker than they are. Add to this that Brexit talks lamed this whole process even more.


We agree on that, the EU is the biggest economy in the world, but disunited EU on foreign policy. The EU has an internal crisis at the moment, hopefully, they will emerge as a stronger and more united EU and I believe they will. But we have to talk about that in another thread. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:45 am

Tkfan wrote:
[ didn't answer two the rest because this thread is turning to a pro/anti Erdogan or pro/anti EU thread. This is and was not my intention.


I know, you want it purely pro Erdogan/Turkey and purely anti-EU. Otherwise you wouldn´t be posting fake news that deliberately.

As for the story about Deniz Baykal, I only found news in Turkish, SabahDaily was the only I found in English.


Why don´t you just say you are rubbish at finding information?

If you have a German link to Deniz Baykals refusal for a referendum-rally, I will happily appreciate and read it.


Ah, you and your fake discussions again. There is no disagreement between you and me about Deniz Baykals. The only disagreement we have was if he was invited by people only holding a German passport, and not by people having a Turkish and a German passport, which is about a million time more likely, and you failed to demonstrate.

Just like your made up "Ban" on Turkish Politicians. You just keep droning on about a private turkisch Citizen not having problems getting to a properly organized Rallay, if he had chose to do so (he probably doesn´t want to get murdered or imprisoned coming back to Turkey) , but a government representative can´t in a purely organized event, that was organized under false pretense (= lying) in a way so incompetent that it is likely to be on purpose.

FYI I dont like/read Sabah, nor did I liked or read it when it was owned by others.


Ah, you and your constant stream of lies. You like them enough to use them as a source, which means you like them enough to trust them. Or did you know it is rubbish and posted it anyways, hoping no one would check?

Thank you for the Washington Post link. Quite interesting story.


Yeah, whatever Erdogan´s Göbbels name is, he is almost as good as Putins Henchmen.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
Topic Author
Posts: 408
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:30 pm

Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:06 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
[ didn't answer two the rest because this thread is turning to a pro/anti Erdogan or pro/anti EU thread. This is and was not my intention.


I know, you want it purely pro Erdogan/Turkey and purely anti-EU. Otherwise you wouldn´t be posting fake news that deliberately.

As for the story about Deniz Baykal, I only found news in Turkish, SabahDaily was the only I found in English.


Why don´t you just say you are rubbish at finding information?

If you have a German link to Deniz Baykals refusal for a referendum-rally, I will happily appreciate and read it.


Ah, you and your fake discussions again. There is no disagreement between you and me about Deniz Baykals. The only disagreement we have was if he was invited by people only holding a German passport, and not by people having a Turkish and a German passport, which is about a million time more likely, and you failed to demonstrate.

Just like your made up "Ban" on Turkish Politicians. You just keep droning on about a private turkisch Citizen not having problems getting to a properly organized Rallay, if he had chose to do so (he probably doesn´t want to get murdered or imprisoned coming back to Turkey) , but a government representative can´t in a purely organized event, that was organized under false pretense (= lying) in a way so incompetent that it is likely to be on purpose.

FYI I dont like/read Sabah, nor did I liked or read it when it was owned by others.


Ah, you and your constant stream of lies. You like them enough to use them as a source, which means you like them enough to trust them. Or did you know it is rubbish and posted it anyways, hoping no one would check?

Thank you for the Washington Post link. Quite interesting story.


Yeah, whatever Erdogan´s Göbbels name is, he is almost as good as Putins Henchmen.

best regards
Thomas


Thank you so far for all your contributions, replies, insight and insulting.
I dont take it personal
a) Psychology 101. You accuse someone else with something you are for yourself and if there were a bit truth in it, it would find resonance in me and I would feel insulted.
b)Seeing that also non-Turks are shy to say something positve about Turkey or Erdogan to avoid flame baits, I am proud of myself to try to discuss this topic.

http://m.manager-magazin.de/finanzen/bo ... 64566.html
... Als Fans des türkischen Präsidenten Recep Tayyip Erdogan wollen die westlichen Investmentbanken wie Goldman Sachs oder Société Générale wohl kaum gesehen werden. Aber sie sind sich einig in einem Urteil, das wie eine Wette auf ein Comeback des türkischen Wirtschaftswunders klingen könnte. ...

They dont want to be seen as a fan of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Investmentbankers of Goldman Sachs and Société General. But they agree, what may sound like a bet, for a Comback of Wonders in Turkish Economy
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:22 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
[ didn't answer two the rest because this thread is turning to a pro/anti Erdogan or pro/anti EU thread. This is and was not my intention.


I know, you want it purely pro Erdogan/Turkey and purely anti-EU. Otherwise you wouldn´t be posting fake news that deliberately.

As for the story about Deniz Baykal, I only found news in Turkish, SabahDaily was the only I found in English.


Why don´t you just say you are rubbish at finding information?

If you have a German link to Deniz Baykals refusal for a referendum-rally, I will happily appreciate and read it.


Ah, you and your fake discussions again. There is no disagreement between you and me about Deniz Baykals. The only disagreement we have was if he was invited by people only holding a German passport, and not by people having a Turkish and a German passport, which is about a million time more likely, and you failed to demonstrate.

Just like your made up "Ban" on Turkish Politicians. You just keep droning on about a private turkisch Citizen not having problems getting to a properly organized Rallay, if he had chose to do so (he probably doesn´t want to get murdered or imprisoned coming back to Turkey) , but a government representative can´t in a purely organized event, that was organized under false pretense (= lying) in a way so incompetent that it is likely to be on purpose.

FYI I dont like/read Sabah, nor did I liked or read it when it was owned by others.


Ah, you and your constant stream of lies. You like them enough to use them as a source, which means you like them enough to trust them. Or did you know it is rubbish and posted it anyways, hoping no one would check?

Thank you for the Washington Post link. Quite interesting story.


Yeah, whatever Erdogan´s Göbbels name is, he is almost as good as Putins Henchmen.

best regards
Thomas


This time I took time for a search and indeed I found an article in German only, not in English,
in taz!!!
A very anti-Erdogan paper!! But the story is almost identical like that of SabahDaily.

http://m.taz.de/!5389323;m/


And to show you what a lie is:
German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel gave an Interview that Erdogans acting, encourages his fans in Germany to make threat-calls to his wifes dental office.
Knowing that it is a well-known German Alcoholic who opposes the CDU-SPD coalition and has nothing to do with Erdogan or his supporters in Germany.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bund ... 66389.html

Is this still elections-campaign or to reduce tensions in Germany?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:15 am

Tkfan wrote:
a) Psychology 101. You accuse someone else with something you are for yourself and if there were a bit truth in it, it would find resonance in me and I would feel insulted.


That nonsense. Taking offense is a much more complex process than that, there is a reason you don´t get your Masters degree in Psychology after getting through 101. Simply thinking that your Psychology 101 bs is correct is a quite effective way to stop you from taking offense. Because that would just loop back to "i am offended, so he is right", something you are quite obviously not capable of. Clearly visible by the simple fact that you still try to keep your narrative alive, that there is some sort of ban on Turkish politicians, even when you yourself read and posted a source clearly stating that there is not .....

b)Seeing that also non-Turks are shy to say something positve about Turkey or Erdogan to avoid flame baits, I am proud of myself to try to discuss this topic.


Or maybe there simply isn´t that much positive to say about Erdogan.

http://m.manager-magazin.de/finanzen/boerse/a-1164566.html
They dont want to be seen as a fan of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Investmentbankers of Goldman Sachs and Société General. But they agree, what may sound like a bet, for a Comback of Wonders in Turkish Economy


I simply love how you pick one of the few positive sentences out of a two page report, especially the part you left out, where Turkish people and companies sell Lira to protect their purchasing power from being wiped out by inflation. Or that Russian Tourists come back to Turkey because both currencies tanked, making it affordable for them. Of the little bit about the simple logic behind "the lira has to increase in value", because the combination of deficit spending, expansive central bank policy and trade deficit has to come to an end at some point. It will be fairly fun to watch when the first large investors start betting on the Lira completely crashing.....

Tkfan wrote:
This time I took time for a search and indeed I found an article in German, in taz!!!
A very anti-Erdogan paper!! But the story is almost identical like that of SabahDaily.


Always just more and more lies and distortion from your side, but it is good to see that you finally try to inform yourself before posting. That article pretty clearly states that there is no ban on Turkish politicians coming to Ralleys in Germany, and even gives details on when and where Turkish politicians did speak. So much for your imaginary ban, or more correctly: your made up lies.

And to show you what a lie is:


i know, the part that follows is a lie:

German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel gave an Interview that Erdogans acting, encourages his fans in Germany to make threat-calls to his wifes dental office.
Knowing that it is a well-known German Alcoholic who opposes the CDU-SPD coalition.


Because you are misquoting/misstranslating what Gabriel actually said. Not sure if that is due to deliberation or simple confirmation bias. In the real world he said that the way Erdogan behaves seems to motivate some people to harass his wife. This coming right after Erdogan attacked him, hence the connection. He didn´t talk about threats, the Journalist did. Apparently there has been more than one caller, other media reports seem to indicate, the drunkert just being one that was identified and deemed a non-threat. Maybe you just don´t read very carefully?

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:12 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
a) Psychology 101. You accuse someone else with something you are for yourself and if there were a bit truth in it, it would find resonance in me and I would feel insulted.


That nonsense. Taking offense is a much more complex process than that, there is a reason you don´t get your Masters degree in Psychology after getting through 101. Simply thinking that your Psychology 101 bs is correct is a quite effective way to stop you from taking offense. Because that would just loop back to "i am offended, so he is right", something you are quite obviously not capable of. Clearly visible by the simple fact that you still try to keep your narrative alive, that there is some sort of ban on Turkish politicians, even when you yourself read and posted a source clearly stating that there is not .....

b)Seeing that also non-Turks are shy to say something positve about Turkey or Erdogan to avoid flame baits, I am proud of myself to try to discuss this topic.


Or maybe there simply isn´t that much positive to say about Erdogan.

http://m.manager-magazin.de/finanzen/boerse/a-1164566.html
They dont want to be seen as a fan of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Investmentbankers of Goldman Sachs and Société General. But they agree, what may sound like a bet, for a Comback of Wonders in Turkish Economy


I simply love how you pick one of the few positive sentences out of a two page report, especially the part you left out, where Turkish people and companies sell Lira to protect their purchasing power from being wiped out by inflation. Or that Russian Tourists come back to Turkey because both currencies tanked, making it affordable for them. Of the little bit about the simple logic behind "the lira has to increase in value", because the combination of deficit spending, expansive central bank policy and trade deficit has to come to an end at some point. It will be fairly fun to watch when the first large investors start betting on the Lira completely crashing.....

Tkfan wrote:
This time I took time for a search and indeed I found an article in German, in taz!!!
A very anti-Erdogan paper!! But the story is almost identical like that of SabahDaily.


Always just more and more lies and distortion from your side, but it is good to see that you finally try to inform yourself before posting. That article pretty clearly states that there is no ban on Turkish politicians coming to Ralleys in Germany, and even gives details on when and where Turkish politicians did speak. So much for your imaginary ban, or more correctly: your made up lies.

And to show you what a lie is:


i know, the part that follows is a lie:

German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel gave an Interview that Erdogans acting, encourages his fans in Germany to make threat-calls to his wifes dental office.
Knowing that it is a well-known German Alcoholic who opposes the CDU-SPD coalition.


Because you are misquoting/misstranslating what Gabriel actually said. Not sure if that is due to deliberation or simple confirmation bias. In the real world he said that the way Erdogan behaves seems to motivate some people to harass his wife. This coming right after Erdogan attacked him, hence the connection. He didn´t talk about threats, the Journalist did. Apparently there has been more than one caller, other media reports seem to indicate, the drunkert just being one that was identified and deemed a non-threat. Maybe you just don´t read very carefully?

best regards
Thomas


Very sad.
The more aggressive you become the more unreasonable you are becomming, and v.v.

Last year after the failed coup d'etat all rating Agencies downgraded Turkeys outlook to trash and we saw a massive capital fled and devaluation of TLY.
But the economy recovered very fast, this was not expected.
In 4Q16 Turkish GDP grew by 2.9%, in 1Q17 by 5.0%, 2Q17 is expected to be also >5% and 3Q17 to be >7%.

The analysts of Goldman Sachs and Société General are basically saying that there is a misperception of Turkish Economy and that the TLY is undervalue.

Basic economics, if there are good signs of your Economy your currency will gain in value, if the outlook is bleak your currency will loose value.

So when the analysts say TLY is underrated than obviously they see good signs and that there is a misperception. Not to speak of new wonders.

Read the article again, but unbiased and objectively.


As for Sigmar Gabriel, if he knows that the harassment is by an Alcoholic
a) there is no need to tell privat problems in an interview
b) no need to invent a far fetched story to link the case to Erdogan
c) as a responsible Politician to not pull further fuel in an already unnecessary and damaging/dangerous tensions in Germany.

But than again its Sigmar Gabriel, he is really unfortunate in his campaign by using the quarral with Erdogan. I can provide more examples if desired.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:40 am

Tkfan wrote:
Very sad.


Trump level language with Trump level adherence to fact. How fitting.

The analysts of Goldman Sachs and Société General are basically saying that there is a misperception of Turkish Economy and that the TLY is undervalue.


Strawman argument, i never said it wasn´t nor that they didn´t say that.

Basic economics, if there are good signs of your Economy your currency will gain in value, if the outlook is bleak your currency will loose value.

So when the analysts say TLY is underrated than obviously they see good signs and that there is a misperception. Not to speak of new wonders.

Read the article again, but unbiased and objectively.


That is almost cute. The article, maybe you should read it more careful, pretty clearly says why it has to rise. Because supply is higher than demand, that is btw. the basic economic reason why prices are falling. They also say that supply is so high because Turkish Citizens and companies are getting out of the Lira, which btw. means that people living in Turkey and Turkish companies don´t trust the economic outlook, and that therefore the exchange rate has to recover once those Turkish sources run out of excess liquidity to sell off.
Why you attempt an economy 101 analysis even after having it laid out in your own source shows an amazing amount of confirmation bias on your part. I don´t know if i agree with it wholeheartedly, but since it is your source, you have to.

As for Sigmar Gabriel, if he knows that the harassment is by an Alcoholic


He didn´t know that at the time obviously, as it had just happened. The Alcoholic was just one of those callers, and he stood out because he actually called his wife.

a) there is no need to tell privat problems in an interview


it is his interview, he can say whatever the hell he wants, espechially if he doesn´t give the interview in his official capacity as foreign minister, which he didn´t.

b) no need to invent a far fetched story to link the case to Erdogan


Right, so on Saturday Erdogan dumps on Gabriel, very telling that you deny private citizen Gabriel his freedom of speech, but don´t even mention the abusive way Erdogan is using it in his official capacity, and the next day threatening and harassing phone calls start. That is the opposite of far fetched.

c) as a responsible Politician to not pull further fuel in an already unnecessary and damaging/dangerous tensions in Germany.


They are not doing nearly enough fueling. There have been sanctions against countries with less dirt going on, there should be sanctions against Turkey. The EU should refuse any higher level meetings until there is a meaningful, believable apology by the Turkish government and it has returned to full compliance to international law. Since turkey seized to be a state of law, there should also be a proper travel warning for Turkey, allowing free cancellation for all bookings.
Calling out Erdogans being a bully is like throwing tissue back at someone pointing a gun at you.

. I can provide more examples if desired.


Yes, i am sure you can make up or misrepresent more examples. Not caring about truth at all does give you that leeway.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:30 pm

"Na to kefari, na to mermari" a very nice Greek saying. In fact its so nice and descriptive that it is also used by Turks.
Instead repeating those stupid and biased narratives, I wished people could use their brains and think a bit.

I linked the manager-magazin only for that one sentence I have quoted. Not that I agree to the story.
Looking at the publishing date I disagreed to it and thought both parts to be very contradictive.
In late August (2017) TLY was too much overvalued for my liking for many reasons. TLY gained first time in its history in value towards US$ (+15%) and is almost stable towards EUR. For a country with a annual inflation of 8-10% this is unusual.
Another fact that it cant be undervalue is, that in 2017 Turkish imports growing faster than its Exports.

The contradiction of the second part is self-explanatory. If Turkish citizens and importers are eagerly buying foreign currency, TLY should loose value. Simple supply/demand mechanism.

Well, this should be seen as a marvel of (german) journalism. Add Erdogans name to the story, although unrelated, to get attention; take only bits of information and take them out of context, et voilà you have a very nice and catchy story.

Here is the real story, neutrally written, with details explained and without mentioning Erdogans name:

https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichte ... chen-lira/




As for Gabriels blatant lie.
FAZ is one of the few serious newspapers that wrote the whole story. Thats why I linked this version.
You can imagine how tabloid press/media exaggerated this story and that most did not mention the German alcoholic. Gabriel knows this story as it is ongoing for years.
Figure out how many people are manipulated by this story and how only few know the real story.


I have long thought if it makes sense and if I should reply. Most probably it wont change most minds, but maybe its good to prepare some people for the big U-turns of German politicians after the elections.
First signs are already coming....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:57 pm

https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/impressum/ doesn't seems like the most reliable source. Owned by a blog and Swiss publisher.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/impressum/ doesn't seems like the most reliable source. Owned by a blog and Swiss publisher.


51% belongs to Swedish Bonnier Business Press and 49% to German Blogform Verlags Gesellschaft mbH.
They seem to be independant publishing companies.

Actually very well written, that me myself understood a bit why TLY gained value the past few month.
For example I didnt know that foreign fonds bought so much goverment bonds and how much foreigners bought Turkish stocks/shares (I wrote at the very beginning how ISE index grew this year).

In contrast, the story in manager-magazine makes no sense.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:52 am

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/impressum/ doesn't seems like the most reliable source. Owned by a blog and Swiss publisher.


51% belongs to Swedish Bonnier Business Press and 49% to German Blogform Verlags Gesellschaft mbH.
They seem to be independant publishing companies.

Actually very well written, that me myself understood a bit why TLY gained value the past few month.


The DWN is actually a pure clickbait/fake news Website, often spinning real news into some conspiracy theory. Or is it still a credible source when it says that Erdogan asked for and got CIA Permission to shoot down a Russian fighter?
http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten ... rroristen/

Well, of course first the "reported" that turkmenistan rebels with Turkish MIT support shot down the jet first.
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichte ... ussen-jet/

Or that the Turkish armed forces roam the land to shoot mules and donkeys, so they can´t be use to smuggle without even waiting for evidence or any kind of legal process...
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichte ... kk-helfen/

Of course, most of it without any sources whatsoever, or linking back to another DWN article that again doesn´t have external sources.

But i have the feeling you´d like their Turkisch news version: http://www.deutsch-tuerkische-nachrichten.de/

In contrast, the story in manager-magazine makes no sense.


Just because you don´t like it.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:42 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Just because you don´t like it.


This describes the feeling I have got from your post, Tkfan. Are you truly as objective as you think you are? We are all biased, especially things that are close to our hearts. For me, it is international cooperation, especially the EU and human rights. I recognize that and try my best to be objective as in being critical.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Just because you don´t like it.


This describes the feeling I have got from your post, Tkfan. Are you truly as objective as you think you are? We are all biased, especially things that are close to our hearts. For me, it is international cooperation, especially the EU and human rights. I recognize that and try my best to be objective as in being critical.


Well I try to be objective as much as I can, cross-checking news from both sides. If I dont have a clue, I do not comment on it, i.e. the 10% fall in Automobile sales (well I searched after that about it).

I dont know how well you speak German or how good Google translated both articles about the value of TLY, but the article on manager-magazine is irritating whereas the article on DWN is more elaborating and explaining why TLY is undervalue and is expected to rise.

Most people get lost in details and loose simultaneously the whole picture.



I didnt want to discuss the discrepancy between western media reporting on Turkey and the real situation there. My aim is to show the effect on (German) Western society.
Every single bit of information about Turkey is linked to Erdogan and a general bashing is startet.
Meanwhile the tensions in Germany grow steadily. If this continues it can easily turn into violence.

Before the election campaigns began, CDUs votes stood at 40%, SPD at 24%, remainder (Linke, FDP, Green Party and AfD) varied between 5-10%.
The ultra right AfD was just above 5% and many people hoped they wont enter the Parliament.

On Sunday German ARD published the latest trend.
CDU and SPD flipped both by 3% to 37% and 21% respectively, and the ultra-right AfD gained most and is now on 3rd spot with 11%.
Not so very nice outlook for Germany.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:15 am

In other news: https://www.nu.nl/economie/4916909/turk ... roeid.html

Translation: Turkish economy growth numbers: 5,1% yoy for Q2, the same for Q1. Mainly due to the restoration of order and stability. Tourist and investments are returning to Turkey. So it is being reported in The Netherlands.

My German is not really excisting, If I read it, I understand the big lines, but not the details.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
In other news: https://www.nu.nl/economie/4916909/turk ... roeid.html

Translation: Turkish economy growth numbers: 5,1% yoy for Q2, the same for Q1. Mainly due to the restoration of order and stability. Tourist and investments are returning to Turkey. So it is being reported in The Netherlands.

My German is not really excisting, If I read it, I understand the big lines, but not the details.


:thumbsup:
Good, objective article :)
After the elections in Netherlands the tensions calmed dramatically, as said before I have not witnessed anything negative in Turkish media. I guess same happened in the Netherlands.
As for a new Dutch Ambassador in Ankara, it might be related to the fact that it takes so long to establish the new Dutch Goverment?? I dont know.

Another fact is, you can break relations very easily but it takes a lot of time to restore them again.


I have read the growth rates of 2Q17 and wondered how it will show up in German media.
To my surprise Spiegel.de had a very positive article. Usually Spiegel has very negative approach to Turkey.
The readers-comments are hilarious. They are deliberately looking for explanations. Half of them believe thats not true and faked.
No wonder, being fed for month with not so true facts and news....

http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unterneh ... 67088.html
 
B777LRF
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:54 pm

There are few, if any, people so far up their own posteriors as those who hail from Turkey. They are brainwashed from an early age to believe Turkey is the best at every. single. thing. I know; I used to be married to a Turkish lady.

Above all else, they respond exceedingly poorly to anything but praise for their nation and it's people. Ex. wife once, in all honesty, stated that the best pilots in the world are ex. Turkish Air Force and all fly for TK. When I started listing all the accidents and incidents they've had caused by pilot error, was told it was all lies made up by western media. That's the level they're discussing on and, frankly, it gets tedious very quickly.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:24 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In other news: https://www.nu.nl/economie/4916909/turk ... roeid.html

Translation: Turkish economy growth numbers: 5,1% yoy for Q2, the same for Q1. Mainly due to the restoration of order and stability. Tourist and investments are returning to Turkey. So it is being reported in The Netherlands.

My German is not really excisting, If I read it, I understand the big lines, but not the details.


:thumbsup:
Good, objective article :)
After the elections in Netherlands the tensions calmed dramatically, as said before I have not witnessed anything negative in Turkish media. I guess same happened in the Netherlands.
As for a new Dutch Ambassador in Ankara, it might be related to the fact that it takes so long to establish the new Dutch Goverment?? I dont know.

Another fact is, you can break relations very easily but it takes a lot of time to restore them again.


I have read the growth rates of 2Q17 and wondered how it will show up in German media.
To my surprise Spiegel.de had a very positive article. Usually Spiegel has very negative approach to Turkey.
The readers-comments are hilarious. They are deliberately looking for explanations. Half of them believe thats not true and faked.
No wonder, being fed for month with not so true facts and news....

http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unterneh ... 67088.html


TKFan, I think the media in The Netherlands are quite objectively. This article just show the numbers, fine. If Erdogan has a speech which is ridiculously nationalistic, they report that. If the Dutch government forbid a Turkish minister to speak in The Netherlands, they report that plus report the position of Turkey. I see no real biased against Turkey. Fact is there are a number of negative things happening in Turkey, from our liberal western perspective and more objective measures as in the human right department.
I think Dutch politicians did remember in Parliament the coup d'etar, but at the same time said that human rights should be respected.
In the Netherlands, some "radical" Dutch-Turks started waving Turkish flags and threatened Dutch journalist and accused them to be biased, for me without reason. The way these Turks expressed themselves is darn right frightening, really putting Erdogan on a pedestal. And that is dangerous fo everyone, especially for leaders of a country and Turkey is no exception. And this Putin trick, prime minister (with the power) and now president (with the power), doesn't help in Dutch eyes.

That said.

In The Netherlands, ambassadors aren't a political position but a civil servant one, so this held up has nothing to do with the Dutch government being formed, but everything to do with Turkey. But it seems the ambassador was refused entry into Turkey after being abroad, so it seems to be the same ambassador, but he or she is doing its job from the Apenrots, in The Hague instead of Ankara. And the consulate and embassy are officially closed because of this.

https://fd.nl/economie-politiek/1191995 ... -ambassade
Juli 7th: http://www.nu.nl/politiek/4822740/assch ... rkije.html

A bit more recent (in Dutch unfortunatelly): https://www.turks.nl/nieuws/politiek/er ... mier-rutte

Erdogan still seeks a fight with the Netherlands, The Netherlands just doesn't respond anymore.


So the ball lies with Ankara, not with The Netherlands.

BTW ever been to the mausoleum of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk? It kind of made me sick, such a nationalistic event there. Almost all is attributed to Mustafa Kemal Pasja, fun fact, he was born in modern day Thessaloniki, Greece.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:31 pm

B777LRF wrote:
There are few, if any, people so far up their own posteriors as those who hail from Turkey. They are brainwashed from an early age to believe Turkey is the best at every. single. thing. I know; I used to be married to a Turkish lady.

Above all else, they respond exceedingly poorly to anything but praise for their nation and it's people. Ex. wife once, in all honesty, stated that the best pilots in the world are ex. Turkish Air Force and all fly for TK. When I started listing all the accidents and incidents they've had caused by pilot error, was told it was all lies made up by western media. That's the level they're discussing on and, frankly, it gets tedious very quickly.


I know these kind of argumentation by some Turks and think these are ridiculous or funny at least.
I didnt described the economic development by how many bridges are buil or how many KM of motorway or that they build the biggest Airport etc.
These are no (real) measurments for me.

I tried to show the conflicting news regarding the economic prospects, if available with non turkish links.
Obviously western media is not quite objective.
I dont want make political or social comments, as the news are conflicting too and me living in Germany am not able to check whats the reality.

What I can say and see is the effect what this kind of journalisim is doing to social life in Germany and its damage to political outcomes in Germany.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:38 pm

You are focussing just on economic growth, not the context, that makes it a bit difficult for me at least.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In other news: https://www.nu.nl/economie/4916909/turk ... roeid.html

Translation: Turkish economy growth numbers: 5,1% yoy for Q2, the same for Q1. Mainly due to the restoration of order and stability. Tourist and investments are returning to Turkey. So it is being reported in The Netherlands.

My German is not really excisting, If I read it, I understand the big lines, but not the details.


:thumbsup:
Good, objective article :)
After the elections in Netherlands the tensions calmed dramatically, as said before I have not witnessed anything negative in Turkish media. I guess same happened in the Netherlands.
As for a new Dutch Ambassador in Ankara, it might be related to the fact that it takes so long to establish the new Dutch Goverment?? I dont know.

Another fact is, you can break relations very easily but it takes a lot of time to restore them again.


I have read the growth rates of 2Q17 and wondered how it will show up in German media.
To my surprise Spiegel.de had a very positive article. Usually Spiegel has very negative approach to Turkey.
The readers-comments are hilarious. They are deliberately looking for explanations. Half of them believe thats not true and faked.
No wonder, being fed for month with not so true facts and news....

http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unterneh ... 67088.html


TKFan, I think the media in The Netherlands are quite objectively. This article just show the numbers, fine. If Erdogan has a speech which is ridiculously nationalistic, they report that. If the Dutch government forbid a Turkish minister to speak in The Netherlands, they report that plus report the position of Turkey. I see no real biased against Turkey. Fact is there are a number of negative things happening in Turkey, from our liberal western perspective and more objective measures as in the human right department.
I think Dutch politicians did remember in Parliament the coup d'etar, but at the same time said that human rights should be respected.
In the Netherlands, some "radical" Dutch-Turks started waving Turkish flags and threatened Dutch journalist and accused them to be biased, for me without reason. The way these Turks expressed themselves is darn right frightening, really putting Erdogan on a pedestal. And that is dangerous fo everyone, especially for leaders of a country and Turkey is no exception. And this Putin trick, prime minister (with the power) and now president (with the power), doesn't help in Dutch eyes.

That said.

In The Netherlands, ambassadors aren't a political position but a civil servant one, so this held up has nothing to do with the Dutch government being formed, but everything to do with Turkey. But it seems the ambassador was refused entry into Turkey after being abroad, so it seems to be the same ambassador, but he or she is doing its job from the Apenrots, in The Hague instead of Ankara. And the consulate and embassy are officially closed because of this.

https://fd.nl/economie-politiek/1191995 ... -ambassade
Juli 7th: http://www.nu.nl/politiek/4822740/assch ... rkije.html

A bit more recent (in Dutch unfortunatelly): https://www.turks.nl/nieuws/politiek/er ... mier-rutte

Erdogan still seeks a fight with the Netherlands, The Netherlands just doesn't respond anymore.


So the ball lies with Ankara, not with The Netherlands.

BTW ever been to the mausoleum of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk? It kind of made me sick, such a nationalistic event there. Almost all is attributed to Mustafa Kemal Pasja, fun fact, he was born in modern day Thessaloniki, Greece.


I cant comment much on the situation in the Netherlands, but can surely imagine that there are still tensions between Dutch and Turkish Migrants, comparable to Germany.
As said relations can brake very easily and are very hard to restore.

As for Dutch-Turkish political/economic relations, this process will be way faster.
The Netherlands are the biggest Investors (by € Amount) in Turkey, and v.v. afaik Netherlands is the country with most Turkish investments abroad (not €, but number of enterprises).


As for Mustafa Kemal Atatürk...
I love him. I am really happy that Turkey had this great visionary leader.
But it all comes down to how these doctrines and changes are implemented (after Atatürk).
AKP and Erdogan may be have a weak democratic record, but the pre-AKP and Kemalist era was not better, and in some cases worse (comperable to current Egypt).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:35 pm

At the moment it seems that it is more Dutch Turks against Dutch Turks and against Dutch Turkish Kurds. Not so much white Dutchmen against Turkish Dutch. Although we have our share of racism of course. But the main tension is between the Turkish community it self.

As for The Netherlands is the biggest investor, well we are almost everywhere in the top 5. I think that is because our tax regime is so light for multinationals that many "Dutch" investments are actually investments from a "brievenbussen firma" or a firm which only exist to evade taxes. And of course, we have a pension plan of 1.200billion Euro's, or twice our GNP, which only 17% is invested in The Netherlands.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
As for The Netherlands is the biggest investor, well we are almost everywhere in the top 5. I think that is because our tax regime is so light for multinationals that many "Dutch" investments are actually investments from a "brievenbussen firma" or a firm which only exist to evade taxes. And of course, we have a pension plan of 1.200billion Euro's, or twice our GNP, which only 17% is invested in The Netherlands.


:shock: 1.200billion EUR???
Now you are really fortunate in the Netherlands :thumbsup:
In contrast we have a serious problem with our pension/-system in Germany and it will get worse. Unfortunately it is not sufficiently discussed or completely ignored by media or politicians. It is said that at latest in 2030 we will face pensioners poverty if we do not take serious actions/changes right now.

Instead discussing such vital topics, it seems every single evenig there is a talkshow about Turkey and Erdogan in TV.

Dutchy wrote:
At the moment it seems that it is more Dutch Turks against Dutch Turks and against Dutch Turkish Kurds. Not so much white Dutchmen against Turkish Dutch. Although we have our share of racism of course. But the main tension is between the Turkish community it self.


True. Like everywhere. Also in Turkey and Germany.
The problem is that nobody or most do not know what or who the Gulen sect/group/movement are and what their aim is.
Me neither. The WDR documentary was a kind eye-opener for me. I understand now some circumstances better, but I cant say I know all about them.

As visionary as Atatürk was, to close and forbid those kind of sects and religious orders in 1925; it had also one negative effect that some/most went underground.

Afaik it was in the 70ies that authorities got attention to Fetullah Gulen and its community but closed eyes because back than in the 70ies/80ies it was NATO/USA/Turkish policy to support religious groupes against communism.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:15 am

Well Erdogan's government is at it again: (in Dutch) http://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/poli ... sland.html

It warns Turks (even the ones living in Germany) not to go to political rallies etc. These things just irritate Europeans and I think you can imagine that. And in the end it will have an effect on how EU citizens from Turkish descent are perceived by their fellow countrymen, sad but true.

As for Gulen, I am not a fan of religion in general, so I do not care for this sect, or whatever you want to call it from mr. Gulen. But I must say, mr. Erdogan is hypocritical, first he worked with Mr. Gulen, because it suited him, now he seems to be afraid of him and his followers and thus he finds a reason to kick them out of government employment, 100.000plus Turkish citizens, or even to lock them up. And that is quite worrisome from a human rights perspective.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
You are focussing just on economic growth, not the context, that makes it a bit difficult for me at least.


Which is funny, because if memory serves me correct, he never ever mentioned that the Turkish Statistics department changed how they calculate growth, so that data is not comparable to previous data nor with that of other countries. While it is the norm to adjust the method from time to time, that change went well beyond UN or EU recommendations for informative economic data.
Before the change Turkish economic performance in production, business and turnover statistics in the industry and service sectors have been accounted for by international standards using survey data, the new data is based on administrative data like tax revenue. The IMF for example doesn´t use that data, since unemployment data makes no sense whatsoever in a claimed 5% growth environment ...

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:43 am

Dutchy wrote:
or even to lock them up. And that is quite worrisome from a human rights perspective.


.... or arresting foreigners and denying them their consular rights, which is a clear banana republic dictator sh*thole behavior. Basically that is Iran US Embassy hostage taking level and therefore close to an act of war.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
bgm
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:15 am

B777LRF wrote:
There are few, if any, people so far up their own posteriors as those who hail from Turkey. They are brainwashed from an early age to believe Turkey is the best at every. single. thing. I know; I used to be married to a Turkish lady.

Above all else, they respond exceedingly poorly to anything but praise for their nation and it's people. Ex. wife once, in all honesty, stated that the best pilots in the world are ex. Turkish Air Force and all fly for TK. When I started listing all the accidents and incidents they've had caused by pilot error, was told it was all lies made up by western media. That's the level they're discussing on and, frankly, it gets tedious very quickly.


This x1000.

I have several expat friends living in Turkey and they say the exact same thing, verbatim. I noticed it quite a lot on the TK aviation threads (especially the Turkish posters glossing over/ignoring the many incidents/accidents related to pilot error, for example). I guess any country with such strong nationalism is going to have difficulty admitting fault to their own problems.
"When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat." -George Carlin
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Well Erdogan's government is at it again: (in Dutch) http://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/poli ... sland.html

It warns Turks (even the ones living in Germany) not to go to political rallies etc. These things just irritate Europeans and I think you can imagine that. And in the end it will have an effect on how EU citizens from Turkish descent are perceived by their fellow countrymen, sad but true.

As for Gulen, I am not a fan of religion in general, so I do not care for this sect, or whatever you want to call it from mr. Gulen. But I must say, mr. Erdogan is hypocritical, first he worked with Mr. Gulen, because it suited him, now he seems to be afraid of him and his followers and thus he finds a reason to kick them out of government employment, 100.000plus Turkish citizens, or even to lock them up. And that is quite worrisome from a human rights perspective.


I have read it before in original and now again. It is a very reasonable advice from Foreign Ministery for Turks visiting Germany and Turks living here.

In short/essence in the original advice it says, Germany is in an event/time of elections, during this time Turkey is instrumentalised quite a lot.
To avoid any problems do not engage in political discussions and do not participate in political rallies.

To be honest I liked the advise, its exactly what I am seeing here in Germany and one of the reasons why I opened this Thread.

Its no more possible to speak about Turkey or Turks that do not lead to politics or Erdogan.
Best example is this thread. We cant stay on topic it turns very quickly into a (pro/)anti Erdogan debate.

Another good example is recent news/rumors TK might be interested in B748. Thankfully it was discussed in an almost sensible manner on a.net
I read through German forums and at least 3 of 10 are claiming this is an decisicion of Erdogan to annoy Europe (and this is mildly translated by me).

I think its really about time that people start to distinguish between Erdogan and Turkey/Turks.
Its not only that they cant analyse whats going on in Turkey but also that they ignore own and homemade problems in their respective country.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:00 pm

Tkfan wrote:
To avoid any problems do not engage in political discussions and do not participate in political rallies.


Main reasoning for the Turkish government: People may learn something about Turkey our propaganda won´t tell them, so they better don´t go.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
To avoid any problems do not engage in political discussions and do not participate in political rallies.


Main reasoning for the Turkish government: People may learn something about Turkey our propaganda won´t tell them, so they better don´t go.

best regards
Thomas


You are loosing on performance. Is this all you found to criticise of that post??

Try again.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:17 pm

Tkfan wrote:
You are loosing on performance. Is this all you found to criticise of that post?? .


Since you ignore all criticism flat out, there is no point in doing so. By now everybody else has noticed that you stride for objective news is just a vehicle to spread propaganda, and when a source is debunked, or doesn´t say what you claim it says, you just move on to a different source saying what you like to hear ad Infinitum.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Since you ignore all criticism flat out, there is no point in doing so. By now everybody else has noticed that you stride for objective news is just a vehicle to spread propaganda, and when a source is debunked, or doesn´t say what you claim it says, you just move on to a different source saying what you like to hear ad Infinitum.

best regards
Thomas


Criticis make people grow.
I will happily react to honest and constructive criticism, like I did at the beginning. But your "critics" turned very soon to provocations and insults. Not only ad infinitum but also ad absurdum.

Constantly you try to distract and distort every single post of me, discredit the links I give without referring to the content, and every second sentence calling me a liar doesnt make your "critics" worth answering.

Lets try again.
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichte ... chen-lira/

Without trying to discredit the source, can you show me whats wrong with the article/its content???
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:41 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well Erdogan's government is at it again: (in Dutch) http://www.welingelichtekringen.nl/poli ... sland.html

It warns Turks (even the ones living in Germany) not to go to political rallies etc. These things just irritate Europeans and I think you can imagine that. And in the end it will have an effect on how EU citizens from Turkish descent are perceived by their fellow countrymen, sad but true.

As for Gulen, I am not a fan of religion in general, so I do not care for this sect, or whatever you want to call it from mr. Gulen. But I must say, mr. Erdogan is hypocritical, first he worked with Mr. Gulen, because it suited him, now he seems to be afraid of him and his followers and thus he finds a reason to kick them out of government employment, 100.000plus Turkish citizens, or even to lock them up. And that is quite worrisome from a human rights perspective.


I have read it before in original and now again. It is a very reasonable advice from Foreign Ministery for Turks visiting Germany and Turks living here.

In short/essence in the original advice it says, Germany is in an event/time of elections, during this time Turkey is instrumentalised quite a lot.
To avoid any problems do not engage in political discussions and do not participate in political rallies.

To be honest I liked the advise, its exactly what I am seeing here in Germany and one of the reasons why I opened this Thread.

Its no more possible to speak about Turkey or Turks that do not lead to politics or Erdogan.
Best example is this thread. We cant stay on topic it turns very quickly into a (pro/)anti Erdogan debate.

Another good example is recent news/rumors TK might be interested in B748. Thankfully it was discussed in an almost sensible manner on a.net
I read through German forums and at least 3 of 10 are claiming this is an decisicion of Erdogan to annoy Europe (and this is mildly translated by me).

I think its really about time that people start to distinguish between Erdogan and Turkey/Turks.
Its not only that they cant analyse whats going on in Turkey but also that they ignore own and homemade problems in their respective country.


No, it isn't. On the surface it might seem like sensible advice, but you are talking about Germans, you are a German living in Germany, you are going to vote (hopefully), so why is a president in another country instructing Germans to stay away from a political event which is going to impact their lives quite directly.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
No, it isn't. On the surface it might seem like sensible advice, but you are talking about Germans, you are a German living in Germany, you are going to vote (hopefully), so why is a president in another country instructing Germans to stay away from a political event which is going to impact their lives quite directly.


I guess you misunderstood the point.
Its not saying to not vote but to avoid political discussions and rallies.

Its very reasonable I think, if you think of some hot-tempered Erdogan-fans or of some right-minded anti-Erdoganists a political discussion can very easily turn into a fight/violence.
Further it says in the advise, if anyone gets attacked to remain calm and not to react to any kind of provocations.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:26 pm

No, I understood perfectly, in order to cast your vote, you need to make up your mind, in order to do that you need to be informed. So one needs to get involved, to avoid political discussions and rallies? No! You need to go to them and participate.

Furthermore Erdogan already "instructed" German-Turks not to vote for certain parties.

I think I got the interpretation quite precise, also based on all other thinks this president has said.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:28 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Lets try again.
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichte ... chen-lira/

Without trying to discredit the source, can you show me whats wrong with the article/its content???


Aside of the fact that your train of thought is much akin to a strawman argument since I never claimed the content was wrong, most importantly, it doesn't say what you apparently think it does.
It gives the exact same reason as the manager magazine article you used to like: Turkish people fled out of the Lira, but at some point they will have to stop doing so and buy Lira, because they got invoices to pay in Lira. Please do notice that they don't talk about stability or confidence returning to Turkey, but simply that Turkish people need the currency to go about their daily lives.
They also go as far as calling the rise of the Lira a bet, i.e. they don't even claim that there may be a substancial reason for the Lira to gain in value, aside of its position in terms of PPP. Which btw. is a pretty strong indiction that lack of trust and stability keeps the current down.
DWN style they add in some banker voices, that sound pretty nice if quoted out of context, while with the context it sounds more like those banks bet on a rising Lira, they pretty much said so, and such stetments are a fairly old trick to create a trend. And the trend is your friend. In case you haven't noticed, banks are not in the business of giving out their best investment advice for free.
Aside of the whole text apparently being designed to create a false impression, lure many people on the website to generate revenue for them, it is a click bait site after all, and turkish people with well developed national pride can be relied on to share that article, the barebone content is not wrong. They are in deed quite clever at that.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.

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