Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:53 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
Lets try again.
https://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichte ... chen-lira/

Without trying to discredit the source, can you show me whats wrong with the article/its content???


Aside of the fact that your train of thought is much akin to a strawman argument since I never claimed the content was wrong, most importantly, it doesn't say what you apparently think it does.
It gives the exact same reason as the manager magazine article you used to like: Turkish people fled out of the Lira, but at some point they will have to stop doing so and buy Lira, because they got invoices to pay in Lira. Please do notice that they don't talk about stability or confidence returning to Turkey, but simply that Turkish people need the currency to go about their daily lives.
They also go as far as calling the rise of the Lira a bet, i.e. they don't even claim that there may be a substancial reason for the Lira to gain in value, aside of its position in terms of PPP. Which btw. is a pretty strong indiction that lack of trust and stability keeps the current down.
DWN style they add in some banker voices, that sound pretty nice if quoted out of context, while with the context it sounds more like those banks bet on a rising Lira, they pretty much said so, and such stetments are a fairly old trick to create a trend. And the trend is your friend. In case you haven't noticed, banks are not in the business of giving out their best investment advice for free.
Aside of the whole text apparently being designed to create a false impression, lure many people on the website to generate revenue for them, it is a click bait site after all, and turkish people with well developed national pride can be relied on to share that article, the barebone content is not wrong. They are in deed quite clever at that.

Best regards
Thomas



WOW. I am impressed!!!
You can do a critical analysis if you want!! And I have to say I agree to most of your points.

I quoted m-m just for that one reason: people need to excuse themselves when they want to say something positive about Turkey
"we dont want to be seen as fans of Erdogan, BUT....."

Otherwise I didnt agree to the article and was a bit sceptic.

On the other side dwn gave the exact same story with figures which made the story more accurate.
But still I was sceptic because at that time TLY was already overvalued and ~10billionUSD capital influx has no impact when your monthly trade imbalance varies between -5-10billion USD (Jan-Aug - 45billion US $).
Investments in stocks and goverment bonds is fluid as water, today its here tomorrow it can be in Venezuela.

And as you said, coming from speculators, makes it not really truthworthy :lol:
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
No, I understood perfectly, in order to cast your vote, you need to make up your mind, in order to do that you need to be informed. So one needs to get involved, to avoid political discussions and rallies? No! You need to go to them and participate.

Furthermore Erdogan already "instructed" German-Turks not to vote for certain parties.

I think I got the interpretation quite precise, also based on all other thinks this president has said.


Not necessarily. There are a lot of other ways to have/get information or a political opinion.

On the other side you agree that discussions and rallies are important or usefull to get informed or to build an opinion??
Than why was it an issue that Turkish politicians held meetings with its diaspora during the referendum??
We are talking of at least 3 million people who could have a great impact on the outcome (thankfully it was not the case).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:35 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No, I understood perfectly, in order to cast your vote, you need to make up your mind, in order to do that you need to be informed. So one needs to get involved, to avoid political discussions and rallies? No! You need to go to them and participate.

Furthermore Erdogan already "instructed" German-Turks not to vote for certain parties.

I think I got the interpretation quite precise, also based on all other thinks this president has said.


Not necessarily. There are a lot of other ways to have/get information or a political opinion.

On the other side you agree that discussions and rallies are important or usefull to get informed or to build an opinion??
Than why was it an issue that Turkish politicians held meetings with its diaspora during the referendum??
We are talking of at least 3 million people who could have a great impact on the outcome (thankfully it was not the case).


Fair point.
1. I would love to see German-Turks / Dutch-Turks just act like Germans and Dutch, so if they want to go to a rally, go to a rally, if they want to enter into a political discussion, just do that. So actually quite a positive, inclusive message, and I think Erdogan does the opposite and tries to do an exclusive thing and set the Turks apart.
2. The second part, why I am against Turkish politicians talking to the diaspora? Three faults:
- on content: Erdogan wanted the blessing of the Turks to become an autocratic leader and I think that is never a good thing for a country, so why let the Turkish minister argue for this in The Netherlands when it is against Dutch values?
- on democracy: Erdogan's government tried everything to get their point across and actively suppressed the opposition (just look at the rapport on this by the
Council of Europe (not an EU institution for the record)). So the Turks didn't get properly informed, so why should the Dutch government let one side have a rally for it? Dutch-Turks on both sides of the referendum did have rallies and that was fine, no problem there.
- on public order: this was a very heated debate, also among Dutch-Turks, so letting a Turkish minister speak would have (and did, just look at what happened at the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam) put oil on the fire, so why should the Dutch government lend a hand to it?

In this case, the diaspora was the deciding factor, if I am not mistaking. That is the strange thing, people whom aren't living in Turkey decided for the Turks. Ah well, Erdogan can live in his 1.000 plus room palace and can squat all criticism, including the ones abroad.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No, I understood perfectly, in order to cast your vote, you need to make up your mind, in order to do that you need to be informed. So one needs to get involved, to avoid political discussions and rallies? No! You need to go to them and participate.

Furthermore Erdogan already "instructed" German-Turks not to vote for certain parties.

I think I got the interpretation quite precise, also based on all other thinks this president has said.


Not necessarily. There are a lot of other ways to have/get information or a political opinion.

On the other side you agree that discussions and rallies are important or usefull to get informed or to build an opinion??
Than why was it an issue that Turkish politicians held meetings with its diaspora during the referendum??
We are talking of at least 3 million people who could have a great impact on the outcome (thankfully it was not the case).


Fair point.
1. I would love to see German-Turks / Dutch-Turks just act like Germans and Dutch, so if they want to go to a rally, go to a rally, if they want to enter into a political discussion, just do that. So actually quite a positive, inclusive message, and I think Erdogan does the opposite and tries to do an exclusive thing and set the Turks apart.
2. The second part, why I am against Turkish politicians talking to the diaspora? Three faults:
- on content: Erdogan wanted the blessing of the Turks to become an autocratic leader and I think that is never a good thing for a country, so why let the Turkish minister argue for this in The Netherlands when it is against Dutch values?
- on democracy: Erdogan's government tried everything to get their point across and actively suppressed the opposition (just look at the rapport on this by the
Council of Europe (not an EU institution for the record)). So the Turks didn't get properly informed, so why should the Dutch government let one side have a rally for it? Dutch-Turks on both sides of the referendum did have rallies and that was fine, no problem there.
- on public order: this was a very heated debate, also among Dutch-Turks, so letting a Turkish minister speak would have (and did, just look at what happened at the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam) put oil on the fire, so why should the Dutch government lend a hand to it?

In this case, the diaspora was the deciding factor, if I am not mistaking. That is the strange thing, people whom aren't living in Turkey decided for the Turks. Ah well, Erdogan can live in his 1.000 plus room palace and can squat all criticism, including the ones abroad.


I agree to most of your arguments but have a little objective when you say such meetings should be prohibited if its against Dutch values. I think freedom of speech and freedom of opinion are more valuable.
At the end of the day Wilders can also express what he wants, which is not necessarily coherent with democracy and Dutch values.

In one of my very early posts, I wrote Deniz Baykal was the only Democrat when he refused to participate in a meeting in Germany when AKP politicians couldnt.
That means that I think the attitude of Dutch and German Authorities were not so democratic as well as the whole campaign in Turkey. I am aware that it was not quite fair.

Besides that I didnt see the necessity of rallies to be held Abroad. It was also very controversial by Turks in Germany.



To the outcome of the referendum:
There were approximately ~ 1.4million more votes for Yes than No (25.2m vs. 23.8m)
the votes from abroad contributed only by approximately ~ 260.000 (~780.000 to ~ 520.000)

http://referandum.ntv.com.tr/#yurt-disi
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:38 am

Wilders can't just say what he wants, he has been for a judge twice because of what he said and rightfully so. But Wilders is still embedded in a democratic structure, Erdogan placed the AKP outside it and that is the difference. There are limits to free speech.

Besides that, the Dutch may decide which foreigner they are going to let to have a political speech in the Netherlands, you do agree with that principle, don't you? I think you use way to big a word "undemocratic" for the behavior of Germany and The Netherlands (and potentially others), because with this kind of rhetoric you are placing these inherently democratic countries at the same level as the inherently undemocratic AKP.

And to say it was not quite fair is also an understatement.

I guess the votes abroad weren't the deciding vote after all, but 70% of the Dutch Turks voted for this autocracy, I thought that was quite remarkable and indeed quite sad.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
Besides that, the Dutch may decide which foreigner they are going to let to have a political speech in the Netherlands, you do agree with that principle, don't you?


Since he doesn´t criticize Turkey tossing people in jail without letting them have access to their consulate at all, we can be reasonably sure that the Erdogan regime can´t be anti-democratic no matter what they do, while every other country is automatically guilty of it for the smallest, even if imaginary, infraction.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Wilders can't just say what he wants, he has been for a judge twice because of what he said and rightfully so. But Wilders is still embedded in a democratic structure, Erdogan placed the AKP outside it and that is the difference. There are limits to free speech.

Besides that, the Dutch may decide which foreigner they are going to let to have a political speech in the Netherlands, you do agree with that principle, don't you? I think you use way to big a word "undemocratic" for the behavior of Germany and The Netherlands (and potentially others), because with this kind of rhetoric you are placing these inherently democratic countries at the same level as the inherently undemocratic AKP.

And to say it was not quite fair is also an understatement.

I guess the votes abroad weren't the deciding vote after all, but 70% of the Dutch Turks voted for this autocracy, I thought that was quite remarkable and indeed quite sad.



Ok I leave it open if its democratic that one groupe is allowed to speak and the other is not.

The reason I said the campaigns were not fair is, I was not at place*, western media says it wasnt turkish media says it was. Seeing that both sides are not quite objective I dont want to advocate one side.
My eldest sister lives in Turkey, she was at the No-Camp. She told me they have no problems but the Yes-camp is more active/dominant. Can I base my opinion on my sisters statement?? Definitely not.

The reason I said it was unfair is only based on the fact that one side is in Goverment, the other side not. At many Municipalities also AKP is in power, so many Yes-Rallies were orginised like festivities with ground-breaking ceremonies or opening ceremonies. To be fair they are really working good, there were a plethora of occasions where they could held these impressive rallies.

In short, were the referendum rallies "democratic"? I would say yes, were they fair?? Not really.

Besides that, Erdogan is popular. In 2014 presidential elections he already won with 51,8% in the first Vote, there was no need for second elections to vote between two.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish ... tion,_2014


its really ironic that a lot of people have an absolute opinion just based on media or some "witnesses
of others"; without beeing there or to check with other sources. Most saddening is the refusal of other opinions
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Besides that, the Dutch may decide which foreigner they are going to let to have a political speech in the Netherlands, you do agree with that principle, don't you?


Since he doesn´t criticize Turkey tossing people in jail without letting them have access to their consulate at all, we can be reasonably sure that the Erdogan regime can´t be anti-democratic no matter what they do, while every other country is automatically guilty of it for the smallest, even if imaginary, infraction.

best regards
Thomas


https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.d ... 5-amp.html

Best regards,
Erkan
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:30 pm

Tkfan wrote:
https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/deniz-yuecel-und-peter-steudtner-deutscher-botschafter-besucht-die-beiden-in-tuerkei-a-1164115-amp.html

Best regards,
Erkan


Six month is about 5 month and 30 days to long. You have just proven that Turkey is a banana Republic where law has no meaning whatsoever.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:08 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/deniz-yuecel-und-peter-steudtner-deutscher-botschafter-besucht-die-beiden-in-tuerkei-a-1164115-amp.html

Best regards,
Erkan


Six month is about 5 month and 30 days to long. You have just proven that Turkey is a banana Republic where law has no meaning whatsoever.

best regards
Thomas


....Es war das erste Mal seit Steudtners Festnahme Anfang Juli, dass ein deutscher Botschaftsvertreter Zugang zu ihm erhielt.....


It says that Steudtner was visited for the first time since July 5th by the Ambassador. Roughly 6 weeks maybe.
The Ambassador being in Ankara and Steudtner in Silivri/Istanbul is one thing,
the other Germany has a Consulate in Istanbul. They take care of them.
https://www.google.de/amp/www.zeit.de/a ... sul-besuch

You said in your post that they do not have any consular contacts or access.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:11 pm

Tkfan wrote:
It says that Steudtner was visited for the first time since July 5th by the Ambassador. Roughly 6 weeks maybe.


conveniently forgetting the other person in YOUR Source

The Ambassador being in Ankara and Steudtner in Silivri/Istanbul is one thing,


Now you make up excuses for wanne be dictators in a banana republic. Unless Turkey is such a backwater dump that there is no telephone system.....
You also conveniently forget that consular rights have been denied, distance is the least of your problem if the Regime of the banana republic doesn´t allow the visit.

You said in your post that they do not have any consular contacts or access.


I said they are any denying consular rights, i didn´t say they do so in every single case nor indefinitely. Banana republic without the rule of law is still factually correct, proven by your own source.
So, there you have your objective fact about Turkey.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:45 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tkfan wrote:
It says that Steudtner was visited for the first time since July 5th by the Ambassador. Roughly 6 weeks maybe.


conveniently forgetting the other person in YOUR Source

The Ambassador being in Ankara and Steudtner in Silivri/Istanbul is one thing,


Now you make up excuses for wanne be dictators in a banana republic. Unless Turkey is such a backwater dump that there is no telephone system.....
You also conveniently forget that consular rights have been denied, distance is the least of your problem if the Regime of the banana republic doesn´t allow the visit.

You said in your post that they do not have any consular contacts or access.


I said they are any denying consular rights, i didn´t say they do so in every single case nor indefinitely. Banana republic without the rule of law is still factually correct, proven by your own source.
So, there you have your objective fact about Turkey.

best regards
Thomas


Repeating your insults and lies doesnt prove you are right.
You are getting funny at best, rather ridiculous.
If you can't change your language, its again not worth answering.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:21 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Wilders can't just say what he wants, he has been for a judge twice because of what he said and rightfully so. But Wilders is still embedded in a democratic structure, Erdogan placed the AKP outside it and that is the difference. There are limits to free speech.

Besides that, the Dutch may decide which foreigner they are going to let to have a political speech in the Netherlands, you do agree with that principle, don't you? I think you use way to big a word "undemocratic" for the behavior of Germany and The Netherlands (and potentially others), because with this kind of rhetoric you are placing these inherently democratic countries at the same level as the inherently undemocratic AKP.

And to say it was not quite fair is also an understatement.

I guess the votes abroad weren't the deciding vote after all, but 70% of the Dutch Turks voted for this autocracy, I thought that was quite remarkable and indeed quite sad.



Ok I leave it open if its democratic that one groupe is allowed to speak and the other is not.

The reason I said the campaigns were not fair is, I was not at place*, western media says it wasnt turkish media says it was. Seeing that both sides are not quite objective I dont want to advocate one side.
My eldest sister lives in Turkey, she was at the No-Camp. She told me they have no problems but the Yes-camp is more active/dominant. Can I base my opinion on my sisters statement?? Definitely not.

The reason I said it was unfair is only based on the fact that one side is in Goverment, the other side not. At many Municipalities also AKP is in power, so many Yes-Rallies were orginised like festivities with ground-breaking ceremonies or opening ceremonies. To be fair they are really working good, there were a plethora of occasions where they could held these impressive rallies.

In short, were the referendum rallies "democratic"? I would say yes, were they fair?? Not really.

Besides that, Erdogan is popular. In 2014 presidential elections he already won with 51,8% in the first Vote, there was no need for second elections to vote between two.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish ... tion,_2014


its really ironic that a lot of people have an absolute opinion just based on media or some "witnesses
of others"; without beeing there or to check with other sources. Most saddening is the refusal of other opinions


Ok, com'on you are not that naive. The referendum was unfair by actions of Erdogan's government. That is not something some random people say, no it is the Council of Europe: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turke ... 7J0Z5?il=0
The Council of Europe does this with every election held, sends observers, not only for the elections themselves but more importantly what is happening before and the aftermath. Their conclusion was that it wasn't up to standards, Erdogan's reaction is pure rhetoric.
The counsil of Europe is indipendent organisation, it is up to you what to believe, I believe this organisation did his job and their conclusions are fair.

The Turkish media isn't free (point), saying otherwise or suggesting otherwise is naive at best. Turkey is ranked 155 out of 180 countries in press freedom. Germany 16th. https://rsf.org/en/ranking

"Ok I leave it open if its democratic that one groupe is allowed to speak and the other is not." Don't know what you mean with this. In The Netherlands, don't know about Germany, it was no problem to organize events where the referendum was discussed, just members of Erdogan's government weren't allowed to have great rallies here. So suggesting that one group wasn't allowed to speak in The Netherlands is simply untrue. In The Netherlands is it not up to the government to crush rallies, everyone is allowed to organize a discussion about anything, there are limits of course, but that leaves a lot of room. In Turkey, it isn't possible what is possible in Western Europe. There is no contest which is the free society and which is highly constricted and dominated by the APK. If you don't recognize that fact, it will be very difficult to have a discussion about this and hope you do recognize you are viewing things in Turkey with pink glasses and that you are not so objective as you seem to claim to be.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:23 am

Tkfan wrote:
Repeating your insults and lies doesnt prove you are right..


I did neither. That is all just in your head.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:14 am

The only thing this thread has established, is that turks, or descendents thereof, are incapable of handling critique of Turkey or Turkish politics. Which as about as newsworthy as 'water is wet, beware!'.

You're fighting a lost cause 'TKfan'; anybody with more than two functioning braincells can see that Turkey is heading towards a dictatorship. That's as objective as it gets, but you're not interested in objectivity - you're looking for 'news' which conforms to your view of the world and, most importantly, Turkey's place therein. Well, I'll tell you where Turkey's place is: It's with the religious fanatics just to the south east of your borders. Enjoy the company.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:08 am

Don't be so pessimistic, B777LRF, I see him struggling, but kudos for him for trying to get another perspective and handling feedback. We (or make it more personal: I) can all learn something from his attitude.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:


Thank you so far for a nice and civilized conversation. I think at the moment and for quite some time to come, a debate about Turkey is not possible as everybody is focused on Erdogan and every Topic is linked to him immediateley.
Better to stop it here.

I wrote several times that I dont live there, therefore I can not and will not comment on it. I am experienced enough to not base my opinion on (mainstream) media or something what is told to me.
Living in Germany I can very well say what an effect it has on daily live here.
Furthermore it makes a hefty right-shift in Germanys political landscape. Former "Volkspartei" SPD is now almost marginalized. They lost nearly 8% in their stronghold North-Rhine Westphalia, extreme-right AfD from 0 to over 7%.

Similar is expected for Federal elections in 10 days.
Currently SPD is at 20% and AfD at 12%.
And it is said that almost 1/3 of people have not decided what to vote.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 67722.html

So to answer one of my questions of opening post
Tkfan wrote:
.. Who are they serving with this misleading news?...

A great winner is definitely AfD
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:13 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


Thank you so far for a nice and civilized conversation. I think at the moment and for quite some time to come, a debate about Turkey is not possible as everybody is focused on Erdogan and every Topic is linked to him immediateley.
Better to stop it here.

I wrote several times that I dont live there, therefore I can not and will not comment on it. I am experienced enough to not base my opinion on (mainstream) media or something what is told to me.
Living in Germany I can very well say what an effect it has on daily live here.
Furthermore it makes a hefty right-shift in Germanys political landscape. Former "Volkspartei" SPD is now almost marginalized. They lost nearly 8% in their stronghold North-Rhine Westphalia, extreme-right AfD from 0 to over 7%.

Similar is expected for Federal elections in 10 days.
Currently SPD is at 20% and AfD at 12%.
And it is said that almost 1/3 of people have not decided what to vote.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschla ... 67722.html

So to answer one of my questions of opening post
Tkfan wrote:
.. Who are they serving with this misleading news?...

A great winner is definitely AfD


I can see your struggle and I see you trying to understand another perspective and I think that alone deserves respect. And for me you are German or a fellow European, not a Turk in the first place. diversity is something which could enrich us all so we should celebrate it.
As for the AfD, just leave it there, we have the PVV of Geert Wilders, in the end, he shouts a lot but delivers nothing so he has zero influence where it really matters. The same is true for the AfD I guess. And remember the AfD might be able to get 12%, but that means that 88% of your fellow Germans reject the AfD and for which it stands.

As for Turkey and Erdogan, as far as I see it, and indeed I get my info from MSM and sometimes some extra info, Turkish society is changing because of Erdogan, so perfectly logical that in every discussion Erdogan plays a role.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
...
As for the AfD, just leave it there, we have the PVV of Geert Wilders, in the end, he shouts a lot but delivers nothing so he has zero influence where it really matters. The same is true for the AfD I guess. And remember the AfD might be able to get 12%, but that means that 88% of your fellow Germans reject the AfD and for which it stands.
...


Thats true.
Thankfully there are the rest of >88%.
Even the majority of 12% doesn't share the ideology of AfD's leaders. Most will vote them out of protest. But once voted, Germany will take a hit.

For me AfD is the continuation or 'Party'sation of Pegida. They made huge rallies regualarily. Their spoken motives were Xenophobia and Islamophopia. In reality they were average people with average concerns.
Back then, as they were embarrassing, they were not really heard, ridiculed and then ignored. But their concerns and problems not solved. Now it will hit back.... but powerfull

But the media prefer news which is more catchy and better to sell :?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:43 am

Banana Republic strikes again...

http://m.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/a-1167856.html

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... LMgATSGzzQ

Consular visits in violation of international law denied again.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:58 pm

Perfect informative and objective news.

Per International law, if someone has both nationlities, Turkey can very well treat him as his Citizen, Germany should than seek cooperation not provocation.

The Zeit.de article said he was already visitied by the German Consul twice, and that his lawyers and relatives/friends can visit him regularily.
I dont understand this hick-up about Deniz Yücel. Some years ago he was flame baited by Germans because of one article, now he is a hero.
http://m.taz.de/!5114887;m/


On the other side, I hope German Media is as good in restoring Germanys International image, when on September 25th the Nazis enter German Parliament after 70 years.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:33 pm

In the meantime the Erdogan regime continues its ethnic cleansing and religious percecurion:

http://www.meforum.org/6911/turkey-pers ... diyarbakir

And continues to show about as much respect for UNESCO world heritage sites as ISIS/the Taliba.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016 ... on-kurdish

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:37 pm

What is your opinion about the Nazis entering the Reichstag after 70 years Thomas??

Will you change your signature?? It is very telling.

Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:20 am

In other objective news the Erdogan Regime is making an effort to show its own hypocrisy to the max.

While they are screaming "Nazi methods" when they find out that fire code also pertains to their efforts to promote the end of Turkey as a state of law in Germany, they have absolutely no problem protesting if people demonstrate against their regime keeping all the codes and laws of Germany. Freedom of speech is obviously not just for the government and nobody else, even in foreign countries, while they blame other governments for their own incompetence in planning ralleys.

http://www.newsweek.com/thousands-kurds ... any-495588

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
In other objective news the Erdogan Regime is making an effort to show its own hypocrisy to the max.

While they are screaming "Nazi methods" when they find out that fire code also pertains to their efforts to promote the end of Turkey as a state of law in Germany, they have absolutely no problem protesting if people demonstrate against their regime keeping all the codes and laws of Germany. Freedom of speech is obviously not just for the government and nobody else, even in foreign countries, while they blame other governments for their own incompetence in planning ralleys.

http://www.newsweek.com/thousands-kurds ... any-495588

best regards
Thomas


Thank you for this wonderful article which shows Germany's hypocrisy and provocations! :thumbsup:
I wished there where more pictures showing all flags symbols posters etc. from that rally.
There was even a small plane with a large poster of Ocalan.

From your article:
...
Many demonstrators carried posters portraying Abdullah Ocalan, the jailed leader of the militant Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union and the United States, and is banned in Germany....


Oficially pkk is banned and forbidden in Germany. Not only the organisation but also its flags, symbols, posters of his leaders ect.
German Minister for Interior Thomas de Maizièr is repeating this lie also at every occasion.

It's not only that Germany is an "ally" and "Partner" of Turkey, this terror organisation and its affiliates are very well known for their criminal activities in Germany (and also Europe).
A very large part of Drug smuggling and dealing is done by pkk in Germany and Europe.
Furthermore they are known for blackmailing, extortions, murders, kidnapping etc.
All known by German Authorities, Police, BND, Verfassungsschutz, Media etc.

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=w ... 775bIDUFEg

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=w ... gA&ampcf=1

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=w ... py66j5J7QQ

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=w ... 0RwajoV_aA


Good work Germany :thumbsup:
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:30 pm

Tkfan wrote:
Thank you for this wonderful article which shows Germany's hypocrisy and provocations! :thumbsup:


Nope, it doesnt, because:

I wished there where more pictures showing all flags symbols posters etc. from that rally.


This would be difficult, since as you rightly pointed out:

Oficially pkk is banned and forbidden in Germany. Not only the organisation but also its flags, symbols, posters of his leaders ect.


....and hence police confiscated those illegal banners and such. Just like they would do with any other illegal stuff (e.g. Nazi Flags). Hence

German Minister for Interior Thomas de Maizièr is repeating this lie also at every occasion.


is wrong, he Isn´t lying when he points our that the PKK is an illegal terror organisation. It is just not Turkey, where those people get dragged away to be abused or tortured in some prison cell.

More objective news about the Erdogan Regime:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yavuz-bay ... 59916.html

They will just get a questionnaire from the prosecution office in a couple of weeks in the mail, make a statement, and after that the AG decides if and what charges they will bring against whom. You know, the way proper countries handle that stuff.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:45 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
.....
as you rightly pointed out:

Oficially pkk is banned and forbidden in Germany. Not only the organisation but also its flags, symbols, posters of his leaders ect.


....and hence police confiscated those illegal banners and such. Just like they would do with any other illegal stuff (e.g. Nazi Flags). Hence

....


http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/koe ... -1.7085975

More pictures

https://www.google.de/search?client=ms- ... DJdTpcMWwU



Not so invisible:
https://isku.blackblogs.org/wp-content/ ... 017_15.jpg

Article:
https://isku.blackblogs.org/4635/initia ... r-oecalan/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:00 pm

PKK was indeed declared illegal in EU, this was done with quite a bit pressure from Turkey. In a number of countries, the PKK isn't considered a terrorist organization, even in countries like Switzerland.
And although it is true that America pointed to the PKK as drugs travelers, German authorities said there was no evidence to back that up. So be careful when making such a statement.

As for the Kurds in Turkey, they are suppressed so sticking up for them with a demonstration is a good thing I think. We will see what is going to happen and if Kurdistan will become a reality, defacto it is in Iraq.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm

Tkfan wrote:
More pictures


Well.. of course, since everybody in the street carries two or more cameras, it doesn´t take long to take lots of them.

I know, in today´s Turkey those people probably would just been run down by Police, but since Germany is a state of law, Police has to apply some proportionality principle.

Same reason why you won´t have much trouble finding pictures with Nazi flags during Ralleys, despite those being illegal.

But you slowly catch up on the differences between nations states and regimes.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
PKK was indeed declared illegal in EU, this was done with quite a bit pressure from Turkey. In a number of countries, the PKK isn't considered a terrorist organization, even in countries like Switzerland.
And although it is true that America pointed to the PKK as drugs travelers, German authorities said there was no evidence to back that up. So be careful when making such a statement.

As for the Kurds in Turkey, they are suppressed so sticking up for them with a demonstration is a good thing I think. We will see what is going to happen and if Kurdistan will become a reality, defacto it is in Iraq.


Everybody has declared pkk to be a terrorist organisation. And all intelligence services know about their drug-business. How can they finance their terror all the years??

Please don't mix Kurds with pkk. Pkk is the biggest enemy of Kurds. Hence the majority of their victims are Kurds.

It is said that their is a minimum of 30% of Turkeys population to be of Kurdish origin. I wonder why pkk-affiliate HDP never gain so many votes in Turkey.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:27 pm

If your statement here is true, you should edit their Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan ... s%27_Party

The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization by several states and organizations, including the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), the United States and the European Union. However, the United Nations and countries such as Switzerland, China, India, Russia and Egypt have not designated the PKK as a terrorist organization.


Allegations that the PKK has been involved in drug trafficking have been made since the 1990s.[152] A report by Interpol published in 1992 states that the PKK, along with nearly 178 Kurdish organizations were suspected of illegal drug trade involvement. According to FAS, Interpol's chief narcotics officer Iqbal Hussain Rizvi had stated in 1992 that the PKK was heavily involved in drug trafficking, but didn't show any evidences.[153] Members of the PKK have been designated narcotics traffickers by the U.S. Department of the Treasury.[154] However, The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany's domestic security agency, echoed this finding in its 2011 Annual Report on the Protection of the Constitution, stating that despite the U.S Department of Treasury designation, there was "no evidence that the organisational structures of the PKK are directly involved in drug trafficking".[155]

On 14 October 2009, the U.S. Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) targeted the senior leadership of the PKK, designating Murat Karayılan, the head of the PKK, and high-ranking members Ali Riza Altun and Zübeyir Aydar as foreign narcotics traffickers at the request of Turkey.[154] On 20 April 2011, the U.S. Department of the Treasury announced the designation of PKK founders Cemil Bayik and Duran Kalkan and other high-ranking members as Specially Designated Narcotics Traffickers (SDNT) pursuant to the Foreign Narcotics Kingpin Designation Act (Kingpin Act). Pursuant to the Kingpin Act, the designation freezes any assets the designees may have under U.S. jurisdiction and prohibits U.S. persons from conducting financial or commercial transactions with these individuals.[156]

According to research conducted by journalist Aliza Marcus, the PKK accepted the support of smugglers in the region. Aliza Marcus claimed that some of those Kurdish smuggler who involved in the drugs trade, either because they truly believed in the PKK—or because they thought it a good business practice(avoid conflicts)—frequently donated money to the PKK rebels. She also claimed that there were reports of PKK supporters in Europe who used their positions and contacts to trade in drugs—and then handed some of the profits to the PKK. And when PKK activists needed more money, they had no qualms about approaching Kurds who trafficked in narcotics. However, according to Aliza Marcus, it does not seem that the PKK, as an organization, directly produced or traded in narcotics.[157]

Also, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany's domestic security agency, echoed this finding in its 2011 Annual Report on the Protection of the Constitution, stating that despite the US designation, there was "no evidence that the organisational structures of the PKK are directly involved in drug trafficking".[155]


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -crackdown
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
If your statement here is true, you should edit their Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan ... s%27_Party

The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization by several states and organizations, including the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), the United States and the European Union. However, the United Nations and countries such as Switzerland, China, India, Russia and Egypt have not designated the PKK as a terrorist organization.


Allegations that the PKK has been involved in drug trafficking have been made since the 1990s.[152] A report by Interpol published in 1992 states that the PKK, along with nearly 178 Kurdish organizations were suspected of illegal drug trade involvement. According to FAS, Interpol's chief narcotics officer Iqbal Hussain Rizvi had stated in 1992 that the PKK was heavily involved in drug trafficking, but didn't show any evidences.[153] Members of the PKK have been designated narcotics traffickers by the U.S. Department of the Treasury.[154] However, The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany's domestic security agency, echoed this finding in its 2011 Annual Report on the Protection of the Constitution, stating that despite the U.S Department of Treasury designation, there was "no evidence that the organisational structures of the PKK are directly involved in drug trafficking".[155]

On 14 October 2009, the U.S. Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) targeted the senior leadership of the PKK, designating Murat Karayılan, the head of the PKK, and high-ranking members Ali Riza Altun and Zübeyir Aydar as foreign narcotics traffickers at the request of Turkey.[154] On 20 April 2011, the U.S. Department of the Treasury announced the designation of PKK founders Cemil Bayik and Duran Kalkan and other high-ranking members as Specially Designated Narcotics Traffickers (SDNT) pursuant to the Foreign Narcotics Kingpin Designation Act (Kingpin Act). Pursuant to the Kingpin Act, the designation freezes any assets the designees may have under U.S. jurisdiction and prohibits U.S. persons from conducting financial or commercial transactions with these individuals.[156]

According to research conducted by journalist Aliza Marcus, the PKK accepted the support of smugglers in the region. Aliza Marcus claimed that some of those Kurdish smuggler who involved in the drugs trade, either because they truly believed in the PKK—or because they thought it a good business practice(avoid conflicts)—frequently donated money to the PKK rebels. She also claimed that there were reports of PKK supporters in Europe who used their positions and contacts to trade in drugs—and then handed some of the profits to the PKK. And when PKK activists needed more money, they had no qualms about approaching Kurds who trafficked in narcotics. However, according to Aliza Marcus, it does not seem that the PKK, as an organization, directly produced or traded in narcotics.[157]

Also, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany's domestic security agency, echoed this finding in its 2011 Annual Report on the Protection of the Constitution, stating that despite the US designation, there was "no evidence that the organisational structures of the PKK are directly involved in drug trafficking".[155]


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -crackdown



It would be completely naive to believe that pkk is doing its drug-business in its own name. Pkk has thousands of affiliates in Turkey, Europe ect.

As for pkk being terrorist or not, killing innocent people, and mostly Kurdish people, might be hobby of those "workers" (pkk=kurdish workers party).

If they were really struggeling for the Kurdish case, Barzani or Talabani would cooperate with them. In fact they are fighting against them in Northern Iraq.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:49 pm

Not going to debate this with you. The Kurds are being suppressed by the current Turkish government and all the governments in the past. The same goes for Iraq and other places.

If the PKK is the right organization or not, I don't really care. Turkey has to find a way not to suppress these people. Erdogan did relax it a bit, but since the coup d'etar they started fighting again. You do recognize that fact, don't you?

As for the word terrorist, well one sides terrorist is the other sides freedom fighter.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Not going to debate this with you. The Kurds are being suppressed by the current Turkish government and all the governments in the past. The same goes for Iraq and other places.

If the PKK is the right organization or not, I don't really care. Turkey has to find a way not to suppress these people. Erdogan did relax it a bit, but since the coup d'etar they started fighting again. You do recognize that fact, don't you?

As for the word terrorist, well one sides terrorist is the other sides freedom fighter.


Which side can I believe?? The pkk-propaganda in the west or Turkish propaganda from Turkey?

Best is to know both and make ones own logical brainstorming.
My conclusion is that pkk is a terrorist organisation and that Kurdish people suffer most from this battle.

Looking at the results from 2015 elections I see that in a lot "kurdish" provinces AKP won, and the only provinces were pkk-linked HDP won where those where pkk could built pressure because they can reach them from Northern Iraq.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish ... ember_2015
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:41 pm

Looking at the human right records of Turkey from NGO's and not believing in nor Turkish, nor PKK propaganda: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/eu ... rt-turkey/
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Looking at the human right records of Turkey from NGO's and not believing in nor Turkish, nor PKK propaganda: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/eu ... rt-turkey/


This general report of ai doesn't prove me that Turkish Goverment is solely responsible of the situation of Kurds in Turkey.
As said before I have my own view on it, and comparing pre-AKP era and now, there is a lot of positive change.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Solely? No of course not, but they are the strong party in this. Same with the Israeli - Palestinian situation or instance.

But you have your own views on it, that is fine, although they might not be backed up by facts.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Solely? No of course not, but they are the strong party in this. Same with the Israeli - Palestinian situation or instance.

But you have your own views on it, that is fine, although they might not be backed up by facts.


Pitifully no. It is very difficult to find reliable sources for credible facts. There are to many things that do not add up.
I have read a lot of stories of organisations/NGOs to find out later there are a lot who are funded by "Soros&Co".
Sometimes it helps to figure out the puzzle to see a bigger picture.

Comming back to Turkey, I am still struggeling to understand the relationship between Erdogan and Gulen. For a time they were allies, than they break (I think around 2009/2010) than there was a fight which eventually ended last year in the coup d'Etat.
I wonder what kind of 'Alliance' it was and why Gulen never returned to Turkey since he went to exile in 1997.

Coincidentally at around ~2010 Erdogans image in the west turned to negative. Now he is kind of demonised.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:48 pm

Well, I am not so a conspiracy-minded person, but I must say it was brilliantly timed and the response was quick and swift. So if there was ever one case to doubt if there actually was a coup d'Etat or that the government was actually in the know and decided to let it happen in order to have a stick to hit the Gulen movement hard, very hard. They rounded up thousands and thousands of supporters within days and fired many tens-of-thousands within a month. That is impossible to do if there weren't some preparations made.

Erdogan began to become more and more extreme so that might be a reason for both those things, I don't know.

As for NGO's, I find them much more reliable than others, especially the two parties involved. As for Soros & co, well what is wrong with him, of course I know he isn't much loved by some groups, but does that mean that all his donations are tained in some kind?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Well, I am not so a conspiracy-minded person, but I must say it was brilliantly timed and the response was quick and swift. So if there was ever one case to doubt if there actually was a coup d'Etat or that the government was actually in the know and decided to let it happen in order to have a stick to hit the Gulen movement hard, very hard. They rounded up thousands and thousands of supporters within days and fired many tens-of-thousands within a month. That is impossible to do if there weren't some preparations made.

Erdogan began to become more and more extreme so that might be a reason for both those things, I don't know.

As for NGO's, I find them much more reliable than others, especially the two parties involved. As for Soros & co, well what is wrong with him, of course I know he isn't much loved by some groups, but does that mean that all his donations are tained in some kind?


True, it was very suspicious how the coup d'Etat was carried out and the quick response of Erdogan and AKP goverment after it failed. Erdogans statement at that time 'that it is a heavenly gift' for them made me also think that it was planned.
This was the time when I started to look closer to find the truth.
I wrote in an earlier post that I was not a fan of Erdogan and its party and that I gave up on Turkey when they came in power in 2002. I don't really looked very close what was happening between 2002-2016 in Turkey.
I can't say I understand it today 100%, but it's not as written in western media or told in Turkish states media. That's for sure.


As for Soros&Co.
That's something everybody should find for himself out. There is enough material in Internet.
In first place he is a speculator. For the public he looks like a sponsor for open societies, has dubious relations with a plethora of NGOs, and he is soo smart to make huge profits in crisis-hit regions.....

Whatch out for the next Targets. Myanmar and Spain.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:03 am

Tkfan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Looking at the human right records of Turkey from NGO's and not believing in nor Turkish, nor PKK propaganda: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/eu ... rt-turkey/


This general report of ai doesn't prove me that Turkish Goverment is solely responsible of the situation of Kurds in Turkey.


On top that is a non-sense Argument. On one side you have terrorists, the PKK, and them being terrorists you can expect them to be nasty, on the other side you have a government, that has to uphold the state of law and the protection of human rights at all times and in full, or they are no better than a terrorist organisation.
The moment you give them any kind of equivalency, said government would deserve Prison just as much as terrorists, as they would become terrorists.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:46 pm

Dear Thomas

It's only five days left to the elections. German media is slowly changing its reporting about Turkey. It is maybe they are realising the truth or its a preparation for the big U-Turn after the elections.
Maybe it's also time for you to go one step back and rethink your prejudices and biases, the real U-Turn after the elections might hit you badly.

Meanwhile we can say a big 'Thank you' to Axel Springer Media Group, the Genius Cem Özdemir, Martin Schulz, Sigmar Gabriel, Angela Mutti Merkel to pave the way for the Nazis into German Parliament.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:48 pm

Which U-turn?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Which U-turn?


About Germany's dilemma with pkk, the recent rally in Köln flamed a discussion about the ban and that is not applied.
About the real Face/Thread of the Gulen-sect, that it's almost certain that they are involved in the putsch and how to deal with the Asylum-seekers.
The lies/fakes of Politicians during their Election-campaigns. That it seemed that they put their emphasis on Turkey and not the real problems Germany face.
Etc.pp.

A little late for my liking, AfD entering the Parliament is like opening Pandoras Box for me. I hope it will shake up Politicians and the Society, without big damage.
 
Tkfan
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Re: Where to get objective news about Turkey?

Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Which U-turn?

This might be interesting for you

http://m.taz.de/Archiv-Suche/!5443390&s ... cht+hat;m/

Schutz für Schuldige?
Zekeriya Öz ist der Sonderstaatsanwalt, der in den Jahren 2008 bis 2012 im Auftrag der Gülen-Sekte und zur Freude Erdoğans reihenweise Kritiker der Regierung, darunter viele Journalisten, mit konstruierten Anklagen völlig unschuldig in den Knast brachte. Er persönlich war es, der den bekannten Investigativjournalisten Ahmet Şik 2010 ins Gefängnis brachte wegen eines kritischen Buchs über die Gülen-Sekte, in dem genau beschrieben wurde, wie die Sekte den Staat unterwanderte.
Jetzt ist Öz in Deutschland, weil er im entscheidenden Machtkampf zwischen der Sekte und Erdoğan auf der falschen Seite stand, aber ein unschuldiger Demokrat ist er keineswegs.


In short Zekeriya Öz was the Chief Attorney during 2008-2012, a Fetullah Gulen Loyal.
He was responsible for massive prosecutions and arrestments of opponents, critiques etc. with faked and constructed accusations. Most also in favour for Erdogan.
Most known case was the journalist Ahmet Şık who wrote a Book about the Gulen sect, and how this sect/organisation infiltrated the state.



That's exactly my dilemma to have a clear and objective Opinion about Turkey.
I don't know when exactly the Erdogan-Gulen relation broke and who to blame for the negative developments in Turkey in the 2010s. It is very plausible that the Gulenists made a lot of "bad things" to damage AKPs/Erdogans image.

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