I'm giving you a stipend equal to your current income, that will grow as your income would have grown in the future, but on the condition you shall not work. Do you take it ?

For me the answer is definitely yes.

What about you ?

Yes, I would definitely take it. I could find many other meaningful things to do, such as gardening, growing my own food, traveling and so on.

Define work first.

That's a serious question. Orthodox Jews won't even turn on a light switch on the Sabbath as they define that as work. You need to define what is work and what isn't as I for one would go find myself a serious hobby (if I took the stipend) to fill my time. Depending what that hobby turns out to be, could it then be defined as work....?

Channex757 wrote:

Define work first.

That's a serious question. Orthodox Jews won't even turn on a light switch on the Sabbath as they define that as work. You need to define what is work and what isn't as I for one would go find myself a serious hobby (if I took the stipend) to fill my time. Depending what that hobby turns out to be, could it then be defined as work....?

I guess that's a fair question, but I think that, by far, the most likely answer is that "work means doing an activity for which you get paid for your efforts in money or something of practical value," much more so than, say, the physics definition of "work" that'd be a lot closer to the example you gave.

cjg225 wrote:

Channex757 wrote:

Define work first.

That's a serious question. Orthodox Jews won't even turn on a light switch on the Sabbath as they define that as work. You need to define what is work and what isn't as I for one would go find myself a serious hobby (if I took the stipend) to fill my time. Depending what that hobby turns out to be, could it then be defined as work....?

I guess that's a fair question, but I think that, by far, the most likely answer is that "work means doing an activity for which you get paid for your efforts in money or something of practical value," much more so than, say, the physics definition of "work" that'd be a lot closer to the example you gave.

That was an extreme example but it served to demonstrate the point.

here's something a bit more mainstream.

Say I decided to tour the airports of the world, Sam Chiu style

On that tour I took a ton of photos and then decided to either build a website, or as Sam has done turn them into a series of excellent books to share with the world. From that I earn some cash. Is that work, or just a natural extension of my hobby? I'm not asking anyone to define the "rules" here, just accept that for the OP's proposition to work there needs to be some kind of cutoff point defined and that won't be easy.

Channex757 wrote:

That was an extreme example but it served to demonstrate the point.

here's something a bit more mainstream.

Say I decided to tour the airports of the world, Sam Chiu style

On that tour I took a ton of photos and then decided to either build a website, or as Sam has done turn them into a series of excellent books to share with the world. From that I earn some cash. Is that work, or just a natural extension of my hobby? I'm not asking anyone to define the "rules" here, just accept that for the OP's proposition to work there needs to be some kind of cutoff point defined and that won't be easy.

That's a grey area, and I did consider adding to what I'd written earlier, "that you otherwise wouldn't do" to modify "activity." However, the reverse argument could be made. I like what I do for my job, and I could see myself volunteering to do similar things if I was independently wealthy or otherwise had no need to work for the hypothetical income. Naturally, I wouldn't volunteer to do exactly my current job for free because there's no need to give a Fortune 75 company free labor, but there are volunteer networks that require the skillset I use in my job, and I'd be happy to devote some time to that. So, I *would* otherwise do the activity that I currently do for compensation.

I think and hope that the way I phrased it implies that you are doing the activity *because* you are being compensated. In your example, you're seeking some compensation, but it seems like you'd do that "work" anyway and are just happening to monetize it a bit because, hey, why not?

I'd probably go down to 2-3 days a week, but yeah. I love what I do. I get emotional satisfaction, intellectual challenge, and financial satisfaction out of it. That's pretty awesome, no? Not many people can say that.

So if you took out the financial bit and made it moot, I'd still have the other two aspects. And besides, I've seen what happens to people when they retire: their brains rot.

I'd definitely continue working, but not necessarily doing what I do now. Something part-time that I really enjoy would be idea. I'd get way too bored just sitting around doing nothing. It sounds fun in theory, but it gets old very quickly. I like to be around people.

Ah ah, you're trying to cheat, I give you the money only if you don't work at all !

The photo book may be an exception as long as you don't get money first by the publisher etc., but even then it's very close to working.

Doc you could volunteer I guess.

To me the definition of work is linked to the obligations that come with it. Getting up at 7am every day, wearing proper clothing, things like that. If you manage to do exactly what you like, with no such obligations, and earn money in doing so, then it's not really work.

We are actually into Star Trek economics here. The Federation doesn't have money, and people just work to better themselves.

That would obviously include doing stuff that you do purely out of enjoyment or that fulfils you as a person. If you don't make money from it, then why not? Volunteering, or in the example I gave above just donating any profits from the book straight to a charity.

I would want to give at least some of my time to something I found worthwhile. Some of my time too towards a hobby or three. That's a full life already!

Aesma wrote:

Ah ah, you're trying to cheat, I give you the money only if you don't work at all !

The photo book may be an exception as long as you don't get money first by the publisher etc., but even then it's very close to working.

Doc you could volunteer I guess.

To me the definition of work is linked to the obligations that come with it. Getting up at 7am every day, wearing proper clothing, things like that. If you manage to do exactly what you like, with no such obligations, and earn money in doing so, then it's not really work.

My answer has to be no because I still want to increase my current earnings/income.

So for anyone who wants or needs more than their current earning this would be an automatic nonstarter. *(And of course in the USA work is where you generally get your healthcare, soo no work, no health insurance).

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

My answer has to be no because I still want to increase my current earnings/income.

So for anyone who wants or needs more than their current earning this would be an automatic nonstarter. *(And of course in the USA work is where you generally get your healthcare, soo no work, no health insurance).

Tugg

That doesn't say much for you as a character.

So you consider the ability to buy more stuff, live in a bigger overpriced house, or buy a flashier car is more important than the ability to be a better person all-round?

I think you need to examine your motives before giving a quick-fire reply. Is working a 9 to 5 job with not much enjoyment, and earning paper tokens to buy more Chinese-made crap, really more important to you than having the freedom to use your time productively doing exactly what you want? Following your dreams?

Forget healthcare for a minute. The OP comes from a first world country where health isn't a commodity. It's a right. Now think about this again from the standpoint of what you could do with your life if the economic shackles are removed from you. No bigger house, Chinese-made 70 inch plasma TV on finance, or outrageously powerful SUV on the drive.

Would you jump? Is it worth it to you as a person and not just a pocketbook?

Channex757 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

My answer has to be no because I still want to increase my current earnings/income.

So for anyone who wants or needs more than their current earning this would be an automatic nonstarter. *(And of course in the USA work is where you generally get your healthcare, soo no work, no health insurance).

Tugg

That doesn't say much for you as a character.

So you consider the ability to buy more stuff, live in a bigger overpriced house, or buy a flashier car is more important than the ability to be a better person all-round?

I think you need to examine your motives before giving a quick-fire reply. Is working a 9 to 5 job with not much enjoyment, and earning paper tokens to buy more Chinese-made crap, really more important to you than having the freedom to use your time productively doing exactly what you want? Following your dreams?

Forget healthcare for a minute. The OP comes from a first world country where health isn't a commodity. It's a right. Now think about this again from the standpoint of what you could do with your life if the economic shackles are removed from you. No bigger house, Chinese-made 70 inch plasma TV on finance, or outrageously powerful SUV on the drive.

Would you jump? Is it worth it to you as a person and not just a pocketbook?

Thanks for that complete and succinct assessment of my character and life goals....

Whether you agree with it or not, yes I want the ability to do things, a number of things. Travel for one, flying is relatively low cost but it is not free. Neither is college of my children (or children in general). Neither is cancer treatments....

I simply stated that no, I would not accept an offer equal to my current earnings if it meant I could not work (i.e. earn additional income) based on the facts that my future needs require somewhat more. I apologize profusely that that does not meet your ideals but that is not what the question was.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

Thanks for that complete and succinct assessment of my character and life goals....

Whether you agree with it or not, yes I want the ability to do things, a number of things. Travel for one, flying is relatively low cost but it is not free. Neither is college of my children (or children in general). Neither is cancer treatments....

I simply stated that no, I would not accept an offer equal to my current earnings if it meant I could not work (i.e. earn additional income) based on the facts that my future needs require somewhat more. I apologize profusely that that does not meet your ideals but that is not what the question was.

Tugg

sometimes it takes a slightly sharper poke to get people thinking....

I think this question should be quantifed by age.

If I were 60+ , or had no kids. This would be a no brainier, but as a younger person with kids, there are real concerns about advancement vs just not working.

Channex757 wrote:

Now think about this again from the standpoint of what you could do with your life if the economic shackles are removed from you. No bigger house, Chinese-made 70 inch plasma TV on finance, or outrageously powerful SUV on the drive.

Would you jump? Is it worth it to you as a person and not just a pocketbook?

Um, that's not the OP's question. So now you're just moving the target deeper into the zone of ridiculousness.

Would I work? Well, I count my blessings that I'm fortunate to have a situation where I don't /need/ to work right now, and... surprise... I'm not working. It's been 5 1/2 years now that I've been a lady of leisure, and while I have looked for work, and still do send out resumes and occasionally have interviews, I have yet to be offered a job - and I am fortunate that my situation affords me the financial cushion to continue maintaining my standard of living for the indefinite future, job or not.

That said, I am not idle. In these past 5 years, I've learned a new trade - and have become a pretty decent audio engineer, having done freelance audio engineering and mixing work on a number of independent record albums, as well as produced and wrote a project of my own (an electronic dance music album which was, naturally, a big commercial flop, but remains something I'm very proud of having worked on). Furthermore, I've been working to put together a dot com startup, and we're now at the point where we're starting to raise funds to take us from the beta product to market. And finally, the last use of my time has been putting together a number of books - two fiction novels, both of which are complete and just need to overcome inertia to be published, and a third non-fiction book on the history of electronic dance music is probably a little over half done.

So... I guess I'm productive when I'm idle? So I suppose my answer is... yes. I 'work' even though I 'technically' don't need to... though this work doesn't exactly bring me much in the way of revenue if anything. So is it work, or is it a hobby? You decide.

cjg225 wrote:

Channex757 wrote:

Now think about this again from the standpoint of what you could do with your life if the economic shackles are removed from you. No bigger house, Chinese-made 70 inch plasma TV on finance, or outrageously powerful SUV on the drive.

Would you jump? Is it worth it to you as a person and not just a pocketbook?

Um, that's not the OP's question. So now you're just moving the target deeper into the zone of ridiculousness.

No I'm not. I am trying to get people to think a little more deeply about this instead of just giving a simple, materialistic answer to the OP's question.

It is more than just taking a cheque or direct deposit every week. It's a total change in lifestyle. Can you as a person forget "stuff" and think of this as a liberating proposal, or is it just too much of a leap of faith? To me, outright dismissal on the grounds of wanting your "stuff" says that you haven't thought it through, so being the swine I am I then proceed to provoke deeper thought.....

Channex757 wrote:

No I'm not. I am trying to get people to think a little more deeply about this instead of just giving a simple, materialistic answer to the OP's question.

It is more than just taking a cheque or direct deposit every week. It's a total change in lifestyle. Can you as a person forget "stuff" and think of this as a liberating proposal, or is it just too much of a leap of faith? To me, outright dismissal on the grounds of wanting your "stuff" says that you haven't thought it through, so being the swine I am I then proceed to provoke deeper thought.....

Yes, you are. The OP's question clearly indicates that you'd not only receive a monetary stipend equal to what you make now but actually have that stipend increase over time as if you continued to work and received raises. So trying to remove the economic aspect of the question changes it to something entirely different. It's not a matter of "thinking more deeply," but rather, "think about an entirely different question."

The economic aspect is the basic one of not having to earn a living. That's gone, kaput, Elvis has left the burger.

So would you do it? Accept that basically flat income in exchange for being totally liberated from needing to earn, and is it worth it to you if it means you could go do what you want instead of what you need to. Is that freedom worth it to you?

Earning a wage is what you need. What the OP is offering is to cover that need. Just how tempting is that to you when you think deeper and start listing all the things you could do instead. Such as backpack round the world, take up painting, volunteer at a stray cat shelter? Are the experiences worth taking that offer up?

Yes I included that. I would even include the possibility of becoming extremely rich if that's what you think you can do, in fact those people fascinate me, at least the ones that are well known, they all seem to work a lot despite not having the slightest need to do so. But I'm sure many other successful entrepreneurs have pocketed the millions and are now living the life on the DL.

This is a tough one to be honest. Right now if I were to make a list of what I love about my job and what I don't love about my job the don't love list is undeniably longer. So at first glance not working but still being paid like I was is kind of appealing. But then what do I do with my time.

I have a 2 year old so the first obvious answer would be to spend more time with him and that would have the added bonus of potentially reducing our child care costs. Being a SAHD isn't exactly easy and would require a fair bit of effort to find things to do to keep both of us busy and both of our brains engaged in something stimulating. On days where kiddo wasn't at home I'd need to find something to do, there are only so many chores to do and projects to get done. I'd need something to do that engaged me.

This is a weird dilemma. There are just some days where work is just a place to go in a lot of ways and do things. Some days when I am in a bad mood I feel like the only reason I go to work is to have a place to poop in peace (those of you with toddlers should understand that). But then I'd feel I'd get bored even moreso if I did not work.

Aesma wrote:

Yes I included that. I would even include the possibility of becoming extremely rich if that's what you think you can do, in fact those people fascinate me, at least the ones that are well known, they all seem to work a lot despite not having the slightest need to do so. But I'm sure many other successful entrepreneurs have pocketed the millions and are now living the life on the DL.

Here's a clue. it's in one of my posts above.

A little picture of a devil. I'm playing "Devil's Advocate" here and trying to provoke some thought on the issue. I personally wouldn' t take the offer!

I don't think I could accept it as money isn't everything to me. I also want to be fulfilled by success, or advancement in a career. Yeah the money is nice, but so is working towards a goal and even attaining that goal. We as a species are hard-wired to strive after all.

So what I did above is put the other side. I hope it made people think after all, just what they would do and what it would mean if their economic necessities suddenly disappeared. Would it be worth it to them?

I'd work.

As I have a little first hand experience in this situation, let me put my cents in....

When I dropped dead a couple of years back, my perspective changed a little, for those that don't know, I luckily dropped dead in the ER of my local hospital.

After a couple of major surgeries the wife and I had a conversation, we basically agreed that I would retire, at 44....It took me almost 3 months to go bats**t crazy, everything around the house was fixed, I was at the gym a couple of times a day, Amazon.com was dropping off a few boxes every day.....I was amazingly bored....

A previous employer had approached me while I was still in ICU, just to let me know that they had a spot waiting for me if I should ever decide to return to work, so 4 months after dropping dead, I started working again, but this time on my own terms, I in a simple way became a problem solver for the company that quickly turned into a regional management spot, then working on special projects, and now I am #4 in the company. The big difference this time around is, I work because I enjoy it, if at any time I don't enjoy it I am done, as others have said, I think I would look into doing some volunteer work. The wife and I have agreed that in 6 years we are done, we are retiring, jumping on a cruise ship and doing a world cruise, I know I am living on borrowed time, if I see 65 it will be a miracle, so we are going to set ourselves up to the point where we never even have to think about going back to work.

Everyone's situation is different, for me, I got a second chance, working the extra 8 years will net us enough where lack of money will never get in the way of enjoying life.

I understand the need to attain a professional goal, personally I feel it's not going to happen. I look at my colleagues, I look at my boss who is retiring, having a good position in the company, and well I just don't want his job !

I veered off the path of success early and catching up is a lot of work. Everybody can see that I'm capable, in fact people with decades of experience have relied on me after a few months, in a job that I didn't have any training on before getting it. But climbing the ladder is long and full of obstacles.

On the other hand I look at my small stash of cryptocurrencies that has quadrupled in value this year and could do that several times more and I'm reconsidering my life's plans. I planned to buy a flat or a house around here (Paris' suburbs) in the next months, having the stable job needed to get a mortgage, but now, I can't imagine living here for more that a couple of years, I want out.

If/when I can afford to quit I will do it, having hopefully located the perfect place to move to, and then we'll see. Of course in real life nothing will prevent me from working if I want to, and I'm still young so you never know what might happen, on the other hand I'm convinced I can fill my time without working, I've done it already (long term unemployment) and the main drawback at the time was that I had no money to do things like traveling or flight lessons or paying for my parachute jumps or going to the restaurant.

Long live a basic income

No seriously, I would continue to work. As I work for myself that is a bit different I guess then someone whom is an employee.

Work, what's that?

Signed,
Retired old gits!

I guess we'd need to define work.

Do I want to do what I'm doing for 30 years? Probably not. I'd pick the stipend and enjoy myself, although I admit that after I've done everything I'd want to do something with my life.

However, if it were a choice between doing a job I REALLY wanna do (pilot, weather forecasting, storm chasing, hurricane hunter, etc.) against the stipend, then definitely work.

As the saying goes: "Pick a job you like and you'll never work a day in your life".

DocLightning wrote:

I'd probably go down to 2-3 days a week, but yeah. I love what I do. I get emotional satisfaction, intellectual challenge, and financial satisfaction out of it. That's pretty awesome, no? Not many people can say that.

So if you took out the financial bit and made it moot, I'd still have the other two aspects. And besides, I've seen what happens to people when they retire: their brains rot.

I have been out 20 years so far, and I have never been accused of being in failing mode brain wise by anyone. Well, maybe on here a few times.

I left the labour market some years ago, initially to be full-time carer for my mother who had developed Alzheimers. Looking after her was tough, more emotionally than physically, but also rewarding. When she died I did not seek to return to paid employment. Fortunately I have been able to maintain an active lifestyle and get out and about meeting people.

One of the problems that some people find when they retire is that they have not planned for retirement. They may have done so financially, investing to provide an income stream, but they haven't thought about how they will spend their time. That's something they need to do, well before retirement.

DocLightning wrote:

And besides, I've seen what happens to people when they retire: their brains rot.

Working in a mundane, dull and repetitive job can achieve the same thing, Doc. But this does raise the distinction between a job (which most people would describe as paid employment) and an occupation. As long as the occupation is meaningful, possibly presents a challenge and is satisfying you have a good chance of maintaining a positive mental outlook. Whether the occupation is voluntary work with a charity, adopting a new course of study or acquiring new manual skills matters less.

OA412 wrote:

I like to be around people.

This. To maintain a healthy state, not only is some form of activity necessary but interaction with others is needed. Loneliness, or rather isolation and its associated depression, is an increasing problem in many countries as elderly people are often confined to their homes, seeing no one for days on end. This contributes to the their becoming frail at a rate faster than would be expected if they were frequently interacting with others.

Guess it depends on how much that stipend would be increased over time. If it increases over a period of time that allows me to maintain and grow my current lifestyle, sure why not. I don't hate what I do, and have many days that are fun and satisfying and others that are not. But if I could make the same money, continue to increase those earnings over the years, I would find something else to do. Volunteer at the airport and animal shelter, travel a bit more etc..

Channex757 wrote:

So you consider the ability to buy more stuff, live in a bigger overpriced house, or buy a flashier car is more important than the ability to be a better person all-round?

Define "become a better person all-around".

All the persons I met spouting that tenet invariably appeared to have no clue
about what they were aspiring to. ( usually dumb stuff scooped from some religion
or political movement.)

At my current income, not entirely I would certainly take a part time job somewhere else. If I was making closer to 6 figures, yes and I would do things I enjoyed and volunteer at local hospitals as well.

I find my work very fulfilling and I'm very, very good at what I do, so I'd keep working. Though I would love to have the time to do more travelling though. Plenty of the planet left to explore, plenty more cool planes to fly on.

Other things I'd like to do, for which lots more free time 'retiring' young would be very handy:

- Something meaningful architecturally.
-More work for the Church like I did in previous years. Unfortunately most churches are far more 'political' than any workplace, so it becomes mentally draining quite quickly.
-Spend a year backpacking around the world following the Formula One calendar.
-Be one of those persons who travels to the other hemisphere every six months to live a life of eternal summer. Unfortunately employment makes this quite difficult.

Channex757 wrote:

Say I decided to tour the airports of the world, Sam Chiu style

One can dream.

Channex757 wrote:

So you consider the ability to buy more stuff, live in a bigger overpriced house, or buy a flashier car is more important than the ability to be a better person all-round?

TBH I'm a pretty awesome person already.

Channex757 wrote:

Is working a 9 to 5 job with not much enjoyment, and earning paper tokens to buy more Chinese-made crap, really more important to you than having the freedom to use your time productively doing exactly what you want? Following your dreams?

What's to say Tugger doesn't enjoy their work?

casinterest wrote:

I think this question should be quantifed by age.

Good point. As someone in my 20s, the thought of the rest of my life without a job/career is pretty terrifying. On the other hand, I've always imagined myself as someone who would work well into my 70s (even if it was just a couple of days a week at that point). Got to keep the mind sharp!

jetwet1 wrote:

I started working again, but this time on my own terms, I in a simple way became a problem solver for the company that quickly turned into a regional management spot, then working on special projects, and now I am #4 in the company. The big difference this time around is, I work because I enjoy it, if at any time I don't enjoy it I am done

This is exactly the right attitude to take, though for most people they wouldn't have the leverage with their employer to negotiate something similar.

RoySFlying wrote:

Working in a mundane, dull and repetitive job can achieve the same thing, Doc. But this does raise the distinction between a job (which most people would describe as paid employment) and an occupation.

Fair enough, you have a good point. And I am fortunate enough that my job is also an occupation.

So thanks, Aesma, but I'll decline your offer.

I would do the same as DocL, definitely would enjoy my beancounting work 3 days per week.

A life without work is a little bit sad, when you are of prime working age. But what if you can't choose 3 days per week, it is either 5 days or 0. That would be a tough call.

People who spend significant time helping out a charity, taking care of children at home (we're talking about hundreds of millions of persons there), practicing a sport/passion like mountain climbing, scuba diving, paragliding full time don't appear sad to me.

25 July 2013 was one of the best days of my life. A package was put on the table and I jumped ship. That, plus limited welfare, made it a complete no-brainer, and a golden opportunity to get out six years early. There are NO deadlines anymore, and NOBODY looking over my shoulder to tell me what to do. Anyone who stagnates, gets bored or is sad is an idiot: there is no end to the number of things you can do, if you put your mind to it. It's a new life! I now have two days to celbrate every year: my birthday on 4 March, and my rebirth day on 25 July.