tommy1808
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:43 pm

pvjin wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
which organisations currently trying to subvert their own or other countries constitutions use Sickle and Hammer as a symbol?


Many communist parties around the western world.


Humor me, name a single one in Germany.

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Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:44 pm

pvjin wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
which organisations currently trying to subvert their own or other countries constitutions use Sickle and Hammer as a symbol?


Many communist parties around the western world.

Dutchy wrote:
Strange remark. Don't know what you are actually saying? Are you trying to make it into a political issue? The extreme left did it too, so it's a bit more normal?


What I'm saying is that there are clear double standards in action here. It would be more historically accurate to judge Communism and Nazism to be equally bad ideologies.


Why are there double standards, could you show us where there are the Hammer and Sickle raced and how they were threaded differently? Could you elaborate a bit on why Communism and Nazism are equally bad ideologies, not talking about how they were handled in practice, but as an ideology.

You are a history major (or finished already?) so it should be easy for you.
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seahawk
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:51 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
pvjin wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
which organisations currently trying to subvert their own or other countries constitutions use Sickle and Hammer as a symbol?


Many communist parties around the western world.


Humor me, name a single one in Germany.

Best regards
Thomas


MLPD by all means as close as it gets.
 
ltbewr
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:59 pm

Some have said that the removal of statues of leaders of the CSA are 'erasing history'. No, it is putting things back in a proper perspective. There are plenty of National cemeteries in the USA with the dead of the CSA and Union soldiers, with Gettysburg the best known, the sites of Civil War battles and POW camps on both sides that memorialize that war in a proper context. Some of those sites contain statues to CSA war heroes, but per Federal and most state laws, one cannot place CSA flags on the graves of CSA war dead. There are a number of memorials and statues to Union soldiers throughout the 'North', for example Grant's Tomb in NYC. I don't think anyone want's them removed. Many worry about the 'slippery slope' of the removal of CSA memorials and statues, that it will lead to the removal of ex-slave owners too. Beyond the Civil War ones, you have monuments to the military and political leaders that committed genocide of Native Americans for example - should they be removed too? I would also note that the removals of unpopular historical figures may be cheap political pandering rather than dealing with the serious issues that divide us by race.
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:05 pm

seahawk wrote:

MLPD by all means as close as it gets.


Yup. But they just get close, they don't cross the line.

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Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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pvjin
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why are there double standards, could you show us where there are the Hammer and Sickle raced and how they were threaded differently?


Simple. Shops all around the western world sell communist themed stuff without any issues, yet anything with swastika is suddenly a huge no no. You can also see a lot of hammers and sickles in leftist demonstrations without anyone condemning their use. Germany banned swastika, yet not symbols of Soviets and the DDR who did plenty of evil things.

Dutchy wrote:
Could you elaborate a bit on why Communism and Nazism are equally bad ideologies, not talking about how they were handled in practice, but as an ideology.


As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did, while Communism somehow isn't judged by doings of Stalin and Pol Pot.

Again, double standards which you communists refuse to acknowledge.
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Tugger
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:52 pm

pvjin wrote:
Again, double standards which you communists refuse to acknowledge.

I love what you've done with the place! Good job changing the subject and putting some on the defensive. Of course your point really isn't worth or needing a response so I won't be doing that, just admiring your work at changing the focus to put others back on their heels (who you are now identifying firmly as communists... heh good one! ;-) )

Why don't you actually start a topic on the issues of the soviets and the USSR (different from "communists") and the Nazi's and how unfair it is to Nazi's to not treat and ban "Commies" in the same way?

Tugg
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NoTime
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:10 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
NoTime wrote:
jetero wrote:
I don't even know what an antifa is. I've heard about it for the last month, still don't know what it is. It's a foil created by the nut job right. A distraction and a source of blame for what the right is doing.


Pure, unadulterated ignorance on your part.

But, perhaps this is why the left is so unhinged about Trump's presser. When the media is running interference for far-left groups like antifa (by barely covering their actions and/or attributing them to "youths"), people such as yourself can simply pretend that it doesn't exist. But, with the President actually condemning their actions, then that is perhaps forcing some folks to take notice.

Regardless, those last two sentences from you are painfully ignorant and, assuming others on this forum are just as ill-informed, it explains quite a lot about this thread.


In fairness, it's not really clear what antifa is. By most accounts, it's a loose alliance of anarchist and leftist groups with no coherent organization and no real ideology other than to - as its name suggests - fight fascism.


I have to disagree... It's pretty clear, given the evidence of the last 10+ months.

Its not clear that this antifa alliance would exist in the absence of nazis/fascists, but it's clear that the latter would exist regardless of whether or not antifa exists. I suppose that's the key difference between both groups. One is ideological with a clear , proudly racist agenda, the other is reactionary with no clear agenda other than disrupting events it disagrees with.


While it's absolutely true that the nazis/fascists would exist, regardless - Antifa was around, disrupting conservative speakers and rallys, long before the white supremacists came to the foreground.

Are antifa's violent methods worth condemning? Certainly. That's beyond doubt. The question is: do antifa's methods mean that the anti-fascist message is no different to the fascist message? I suspect that's what this issue is really about - the reluctance to condemn the nazi message by equivocating about the method used by some anti-fascists. (Note that Fascism/Nazism on the other hand, are worthy of condemnation even when they're propagated peacefully).


Who has been reluctant to condemn the nazi message? Additionally, Communism is also worthy of condemnation, even when propagated peacefully. Why would you differentiate between the two? Communist flags are a prominent fixture at most antifa "protests," and many of their associated groups are anti-capitalist and anti-government.

I think most people agree that an anti-fascist message is inherently superior to a fascist one.


Agree 100%. However, it doesn't matter which message is "inherently superior." They ALL have a right to push their own message, as long as they are doing so peacefully.
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lebda
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why are there double standards, could you show us where there are the Hammer and Sickle raced and how they were threaded differently?


Simple. Shops all around the western world sell communist themed stuff without any issues, yet anything with swastika is suddenly a huge no no. You can also see a lot of hammers and sickles in leftist demonstrations without anyone condemning their use. Germany banned swastika, yet not symbols of Soviets and the DDR who did plenty of evil things.

Dutchy wrote:
Could you elaborate a bit on why Communism and Nazism are equally bad ideologies, not talking about how they were handled in practice, but as an ideology.


As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did, while Communism somehow isn't judged by doings of Stalin and Pol Pot.

Again, double standards which you communists refuse to acknowledge.


Good Lord, you really don't listen, do you? Antifa do not support Stalin, Pol Pot, or any other dictatorships, and condemn them. They don't even follow the same sort of ideology. Stalin was a traitor to the common people, he suppressed, starved, and killed them, and was hardly better than the Tsars were. Not to mention the USSR was capitalist all but in name. And what about Pol Pot? Where do you see anybody supporting him or refusing to condemn him? Dude was a puppet, for one thing, and much like Stalin, he slaughtered people wholesale, and there was nothing communist about Cambodia under him all but in name.

>"As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did..."

Are you that f*cking dense? Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you just said, or how factually incorrect that is? Nazism, an ideology whose main tenets include subjugating and killing so-called-non-Aryans, according to you should not be judged by what Hitler did, but communism, whose texts condone the opposite and wish to abolish the social constructs of race and class, according to you is represented only by brutal dictators who time and time again have been condemned by leftists of all convictions.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:30 pm

lebda wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why are there double standards, could you show us where there are the Hammer and Sickle raced and how they were threaded differently?


Simple. Shops all around the western world sell communist themed stuff without any issues, yet anything with swastika is suddenly a huge no no. You can also see a lot of hammers and sickles in leftist demonstrations without anyone condemning their use. Germany banned swastika, yet not symbols of Soviets and the DDR who did plenty of evil things.

Dutchy wrote:
Could you elaborate a bit on why Communism and Nazism are equally bad ideologies, not talking about how they were handled in practice, but as an ideology.


As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did, while Communism somehow isn't judged by doings of Stalin and Pol Pot.

Again, double standards which you communists refuse to acknowledge.


Good Lord, you really don't listen, do you? Antifa do not support Stalin, Pol Pot, or any other dictatorships, and condemn them. They don't even follow the same sort of ideology. Stalin was a traitor to the common people, he suppressed, starved, and killed them, and was hardly better than the Tsars were. Not to mention the USSR was capitalist all but in name. And what about Pol Pot? Where do you see anybody supporting him or refusing to condemn him? Dude was a puppet, for one thing, and much like Stalin, he slaughtered people wholesale, and there was nothing communist about Cambodia under him all but in name.

>"As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did..."

Are you that f*cking dense? Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you just said, or how factually incorrect that is? Nazism, an ideology whose main tenets include subjugating and killing so-called-non-Aryans, according to you should not be judged by what Hitler did, but communism, whose texts condone the opposite and wish to abolish the social constructs of race and class, according to you is represented only by brutal dictators who time and time again have been condemned by leftists of all convictions.


Everywhere where communism has been tried it has failed to deliver and has resulted in a brutal dictatorsip of some form. How many more times must it be tried until we can all agree that it is a failure and little better than Nazism (in practise I mean).

As far as antifa goes, I'm not convinced of their good intentions. They love to start hate campaigns against people and businesses they disagree with and hate private ownership. They also seem to dislike policemen, the very people who protect us otdinary citizen from evil things. I can never accept that kind of ideology.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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lebda
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:47 pm

pvjin wrote:
lebda wrote:
pvjin wrote:

Simple. Shops all around the western world sell communist themed stuff without any issues, yet anything with swastika is suddenly a huge no no. You can also see a lot of hammers and sickles in leftist demonstrations without anyone condemning their use. Germany banned swastika, yet not symbols of Soviets and the DDR who did plenty of evil things.



As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did, while Communism somehow isn't judged by doings of Stalin and Pol Pot.

Again, double standards which you communists refuse to acknowledge.


Good Lord, you really don't listen, do you? Antifa do not support Stalin, Pol Pot, or any other dictatorships, and condemn them. They don't even follow the same sort of ideology. Stalin was a traitor to the common people, he suppressed, starved, and killed them, and was hardly better than the Tsars were. Not to mention the USSR was capitalist all but in name. And what about Pol Pot? Where do you see anybody supporting him or refusing to condemn him? Dude was a puppet, for one thing, and much like Stalin, he slaughtered people wholesale, and there was nothing communist about Cambodia under him all but in name.

>"As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did..."

Are you that f*cking dense? Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you just said, or how factually incorrect that is? Nazism, an ideology whose main tenets include subjugating and killing so-called-non-Aryans, according to you should not be judged by what Hitler did, but communism, whose texts condone the opposite and wish to abolish the social constructs of race and class, according to you is represented only by brutal dictators who time and time again have been condemned by leftists of all convictions.


Everywhere where communism has been tried it has failed to deliver and has resulted in a brutal dictatorsip of some form. How many more times must it be tried until we can all agree that it is a failure and little better than Nazism (in practise I mean).

As far as antifa goes, I'm not convinced of their good intentions. They love to start hate campaigns against people and businesses they disagree with and hate private ownership. They also seem to dislike policemen, the very people who protect us otdinary citizen from evil things. I can never accept that kind of ideology.


Nope. Rojava and Kibbutzim are two successful examples.

And they rightfully deserve to protest private ownership and the police, who unless ordinary to you means white and affluent, do not protect ordinary people. Where I live, they harm ordinary people on a regular basis and believe they're above the law. They've screwed over not just my family but so many others and we shouldn't just sit there and take it.
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pvjin
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:55 pm

lebda wrote:
pvjin wrote:
lebda wrote:

Good Lord, you really don't listen, do you? Antifa do not support Stalin, Pol Pot, or any other dictatorships, and condemn them. They don't even follow the same sort of ideology. Stalin was a traitor to the common people, he suppressed, starved, and killed them, and was hardly better than the Tsars were. Not to mention the USSR was capitalist all but in name. And what about Pol Pot? Where do you see anybody supporting him or refusing to condemn him? Dude was a puppet, for one thing, and much like Stalin, he slaughtered people wholesale, and there was nothing communist about Cambodia under him all but in name.

>"As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did..."

Are you that f*cking dense? Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you just said, or how factually incorrect that is? Nazism, an ideology whose main tenets include subjugating and killing so-called-non-Aryans, according to you should not be judged by what Hitler did, but communism, whose texts condone the opposite and wish to abolish the social constructs of race and class, according to you is represented only by brutal dictators who time and time again have been condemned by leftists of all convictions.


Everywhere where communism has been tried it has failed to deliver and has resulted in a brutal dictatorsip of some form. How many more times must it be tried until we can all agree that it is a failure and little better than Nazism (in practise I mean).

As far as antifa goes, I'm not convinced of their good intentions. They love to start hate campaigns against people and businesses they disagree with and hate private ownership. They also seem to dislike policemen, the very people who protect us otdinary citizen from evil things. I can never accept that kind of ideology.


Nope. Rojava and Kibbutzim are two successful examples.

And they rightfully deserve to protest private ownership and the police, who unless ordinary to you means white and affluent, do not protect ordinary people. Where I live, they harm ordinary people on a regular basis and believe they're above the law. They've screwed over not just my family but so many others and we shouldn't just sit there and take it.


Here in Finland we enjoy one of the world's least corrupt police forces. They are kind, treat everyone equal and use force only when absolutely necessary. Yet stil our local anarchists seem to dislike them simply because they oppose all authority.

As far as private ownership goes, here through hard work anyone can reach good standard of living thanks to our state funded education system. Why should hard working people get no reward for their work?
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
MaverickM11
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:07 pm

NoTime wrote:
Who has been reluctant to condemn the nazi message? Additionally, Communism is also worthy of condemnation, even when propagated peacefully. Why would you differentiate between the two? Communist flags are a prominent fixture at most antifa "protests," and many of their associated groups are anti-capitalist and anti-government.

It's entertaining watching the right jump through their own a$$hole to be apologists for Nazis. I've never seen so much 'what aboutism' in my life as right wingers trying to cover for their buddies in Charlottesville.

pvjin wrote:
As far as I know genociding minorities and people who aren't "Aryan" isn't a central part of fascism or national socialist ideologies. Yet they are judged by what Mussolini and Hitler did, while Communism somehow isn't judged by doings of Stalin and Pol Pot.

Again, double standards which you communists refuse to acknowledge.

Boy you're gonna pass out of exertion reaching for sticks to defend your Nazis. Nazis and white supremacists want a pure lilly white ethno state along the lines of many very bad men including Hitler, and antifa wants, what? To replicate Stalin's USSR? If you believe that you need loads of medication.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:36 pm

pvjin wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
which organisations currently trying to subvert their own or other countries constitutions use Sickle and Hammer as a symbol?


Many communist parties around the western world.

Dutchy wrote:
Strange remark. Don't know what you are actually saying? Are you trying to make it into a political issue? The extreme left did it too, so it's a bit more normal?


What I'm saying is that there are clear double standards in action here. It would be more historically accurate to judge Communism and Nazism to be equally bad ideologies.


The Nazis were just more "evangelical" in forcibly spreading their "way of life (death)."

To this list we must add Communist China under Mao. Millions died of starvation due to his party's mismanagement of resources. I'd call that Murder.
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pvjin
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:39 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
and antifa wants, what? To replicate Stalin's USSR? If you believe that you need loads of medication.

Yes, I believe antifa would probably steal all my stuff and possibly even kill me for being a middle class white man if they got to control this society. And no, I do not think I need any medication.
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lebda
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:49 am

pvjin wrote:
lebda wrote:
pvjin wrote:

Everywhere where communism has been tried it has failed to deliver and has resulted in a brutal dictatorsip of some form. How many more times must it be tried until we can all agree that it is a failure and little better than Nazism (in practise I mean).

As far as antifa goes, I'm not convinced of their good intentions. They love to start hate campaigns against people and businesses they disagree with and hate private ownership. They also seem to dislike policemen, the very people who protect us otdinary citizen from evil things. I can never accept that kind of ideology.


Nope. Rojava and Kibbutzim are two successful examples.

And they rightfully deserve to protest private ownership and the police, who unless ordinary to you means white and affluent, do not protect ordinary people. Where I live, they harm ordinary people on a regular basis and believe they're above the law. They've screwed over not just my family but so many others and we shouldn't just sit there and take it.


Here in Finland we enjoy one of the world's least corrupt police forces. They are kind, treat everyone equal and use force only when absolutely necessary. Yet stil our local anarchists seem to dislike them simply because they oppose all authority.

As far as private ownership goes, here through hard work anyone can reach good standard of living thanks to our state funded education system. Why should hard working people get no reward for their work?


Good for you. It's not like that for everyone.

That's not what private ownership is. That's labor. And you're also assuming poor people aren't working hard enough, or that the rich had to work hard to get where they are.

pvjin wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
and antifa wants, what? To replicate Stalin's USSR? If you believe that you need loads of medication.

Yes, I believe antifa would probably steal all my stuff and possibly even kill me for being a middle class white man if they got to control this society. And no, I do not think I need any medication.


Yikes. Antifa isn't going to kill you for being white or take your personal property away. White supremacists, however, openly want to and have killed people for being non-white, non-right-wing, non-Christian, non-heterosexual, etc. Even if you don't belong to any of the groups they target, that should worry you. You really shouldn't be afraid of antifa unless you're a fascist.
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seahawk
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:05 am

In fact fascism and communism are comparable. The fascism as created by Benito Mussolini was a radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce. Which is comparable to communism in nearly every way. The Manifesto of the Italian Fasci of Combat contains many points communists would easily agree to, when it comes to worker rights, equality of men and women, ownership of production facilities and so on.

The simple problem is that the right wing stupids in the US do not carry the Italian fascist flag or Spanish Falange Española Flag, they carry the German Nazi flag, so they do not show support for Fascism but for National Socialism, which is a fascist movement, but differs from other fascist movement by having the strong ideas about racial superiority. So one can assume that the main motivation for showing the Nazi flag is racism.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:15 am

Anthony Cumio hosting on Alex Jones 8/17/17

The Left Is Going Crazy With Nazi Fever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXaduRllTXM
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:37 am

pvjin wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
and antifa wants, what? To replicate Stalin's USSR? If you believe that you need loads of medication.

Yes, I believe antifa would probably steal all my stuff and possibly even kill me for being a middle class white man if they got to control this society.


Most antifa are white and middle class.
 
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Aesma
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:56 am

I don't know what Trump's goal is, if he even has a goal, but him condemning the removal of statues seems to have accelerated the pace of their removal.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:05 am

Aesma wrote:
I don't know what Trump's goal is, if he even has a goal, but him condemning the removal of statues seems to have accelerated the pace of their removal.

I think the removals (recently done or planned) were under discussion or planning long before Mr. Trump open his mouth/twitter on the subject. I'm going to start a separate thread on events in Maryland (which will almost surely get expanded to include events elsewhere.
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Aesma
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:21 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Anthony Cumio hosting on Alex Jones 8/17/17

The Left Is Going Crazy With Nazi Fever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXaduRllTXM


Cumia, no ?

That guy ?

In 2014, Cumia was fired by SiriusXM Radio after posting a series of tweets, which they deemed to be "racially-charged and hate-filled"


On December 19, 2015, Cumia was in an argument with his 26-year old girlfriend Dani Brand in his house, which turned violent. He was arrested by Nassau County police on charges of strangulation, assault, criminal mischief, and unlawful imprisonment.


I guess he knows something about fever.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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dik909
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:43 am

There has been a gross obfuscation within this thread, and it's the very definition of the word 'Fascism,' which historically and academically has been defined as the marriage of government + business. The new Left has devalued and tokenized this word, however, into representing ANY form of governmental oppression. They're equivocating. Words matter.

Peoples' inability to see how Antifa's Communistic leanings aren't equally as reprehensible as Nazis is, forgive me, ignorant.

Antifa's destruction of Confederate statues for "advocating slavery" will logically and naturally progress to the removal of George Washington monuments, Thomas Jefferson, et al. Vice Media, popular with naïve and impressionable millennials, published the following just yesterday:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9kkk ... t-rushmore

If you think that the Taliban's & ISIS' destruction of historical artifacts to fit their political agenda is wrong, then you should be logically consistent and maintain that Antifa's censorship and destruction of American historical monuments to fit their political agenda is equally as wrong.

And, fact: the presence of Nazis in America is being deliberately exaggerated by the media so as to foment Antifa's rage, which will ultimately be emotionally manipulated into acting as the trigger for America's next Civil War. Mark my words, we are witnessing the groundwork being laid for a direct assault on the freedoms which many people currently take for granted.

Anyone who thinks that what's happening in American politics now is an organic and natural iteration in our public discourse, which isn't manufactured and deliberately executed, is simply ignorant. There are many defected Soviet propagandists who have gone on the record to explain exactly what "the plan" was/is, and how it's being carried out. I recommend the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4
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seahawk
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:02 am

So you say that the numbers of Nazis in the US is exaggerated, while the numbers of antifa´s is down played? So I guess you would also agree that one should not take anything said by the Nazis for face value, while one must believe anything a person from the left says, regardless of how ridiculous it is, because former Soviet propagandists are planing a Civil War in the USA with the end game being something a communist take over of the USA. I guess North Korean paratroopers are already preparing for Red Dawn.
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:17 am

seahawk wrote:
So you say that the numbers of Nazis in the US is exaggerated, while the numbers of antifa´s is down played? So I guess you would also agree that one should not take anything said by the Nazis for face value, while one must believe anything a person from the left says, regardless of how ridiculous it is, because former Soviet propagandists are planing a Civil War in the USA with the end game being something a communist take over of the USA. I guess North Korean paratroopers are already preparing for Red Dawn.


What? I understand the individual words, but, what?
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:29 am

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why are there double standards, could you show us where there are the Hammer and Sickle raced and how they were threaded differently?


Simple. Shops all around the western world sell communist themed stuff without any issues, yet anything with swastika is suddenly a huge no no. You can also see a lot of hammers and sickles in leftist demonstrations without anyone condemning their use. Germany banned swastika, yet not symbols of Soviets and the DDR who did plenty of evil things.

Communism isn't based on the idea that one race is superior to the rest of them. In fact, at its core it calls for total equality among all citizens of the state, guaranteed by the state. Nazism was founded on the notion of white supremacy above all races and was based on that notion. Yeah the likes of Stalin, Kim, Pol Pot, Hoxha, and the other commie dictators were assholes, but there are moderate communists like Xi Jinping and Gorbachev. Nikita Khruschev even realized what a mess Stalin made of the USSR and initiated Destalinization because Stalins brand of communism wasn't what Lenin had in mind and the post-Stalin Kremlin didn't want it neither.
Last edited by TWA772LR on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:31 am

TWA772LR wrote:
it calls for total equality among all citizens of the state. .


... and for the government to be subservient to its citizens, Imperative mandate and such.

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Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:34 am

seahawk wrote:
So you say that the numbers of Nazis in the US is exaggerated, while the numbers of antifa´s is down played? So I guess you would also agree that one should not take anything said by the Nazis for face value, while one must believe anything a person from the left says, regardless of how ridiculous it is, because former Soviet propagandists are planing a Civil War in the USA with the end game being something a communist take over of the USA. I guess North Korean paratroopers are already preparing for Red Dawn.


Incredulous much ?

Yes, I say that the numbers of Nazis in the US is being deliberately exaggerated. As for Antifa's numbers, please re-read my post - you'll see that I made zero claims as to the their numbers. And, where do you get that I implied we should believe anything a person from the left says ? Helluva Strawman you're erecting there.

As for my claim on the testimonies on defected Soviet propagandists, don't believe what I say - research what I say. A simple Google search of 'defected soviet kgb' should yield some lists for you to start pursuing information on.
Last edited by dik909 on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:35 am

seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So you say that the numbers of Nazis in the US is exaggerated, while the numbers of antifa´s is down played? So I guess you would also agree that one should not take anything said by the Nazis for face value, while one must believe anything a person from the left says, regardless of how ridiculous it is, because former Soviet propagandists are planing a Civil War in the USA with the end game being something a communist take over of the USA. I guess North Korean paratroopers are already preparing for Red Dawn.


What? I understand the individual words, but, what?


That was what I did get from the post above mine and the linked videos.
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:42 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Communism isn't based on the idea that one race is superior to the rest of them. In fact, at its core it calls for total equality among all citizens of the state, guaranteed by the state. Nazism was founded on the notion of white supremacy above all races and was based on that notion. Yeah the likes of Stalin, Kim, Pol Pot, Hoxha, and the other commie dictators were assholes, but there are moderate communists like Xi Jinping and Gorbachev. Nikita Khruschev even realized what a mess Stalin made of the USSR and initiated Destalinization because Stalins brand of communism wasn't what Lenin had in mind and the post-Stalin Kremlin didn't want it neither.


Not trying to oversimplify things here, but to Nazis it was race, whereas to Communists it's class. Both are founded on utopianism, and both have given us mass genocide.

As the saying goes, "Political utopianism is tyranny in disguise."
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:46 am

Aren't the statues a symbol of history since the Civil War (segregation, basically) rather than a symbol of the Civil War ?

What other country has monuments to a civil war ?

Do these people even understand the concept of a civil war ? Don't they see that all the countries with one going on right now or finished recently are in total shambles ? Reconstruction has to be a model in comparison.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:08 am

ltbewr wrote:
Some have said that the removal of statues of leaders of the CSA are 'erasing history'. No, it is putting things back in a proper perspective. There are plenty of National cemeteries in the USA with the dead of the CSA and Union soldiers, with Gettysburg the best known, the sites of Civil War battles and POW camps on both sides that memorialize that war in a proper context. Some of those sites contain statues to CSA war heroes, but per Federal and most state laws, one cannot place CSA flags on the graves of CSA war dead. There are a number of memorials and statues to Union soldiers throughout the 'North', for example Grant's Tomb in NYC. I don't think anyone want's them removed. Many worry about the 'slippery slope' of the removal of CSA memorials and statues, that it will lead to the removal of ex-slave owners too. Beyond the Civil War ones, you have monuments to the military and political leaders that committed genocide of Native Americans for example - should they be removed too? I would also note that the removals of unpopular historical figures may be cheap political pandering rather than dealing with the serious issues that divide us by race.


When the time comes, i'm sure Trump's will house these confederate statues in his presidential library seems fitting, sine the only ones upset at their removal are his base.
 
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:13 am

The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:33 am

Freakysh wrote:


Funny, I found a couple of sentences in there that apply perfectly to someone...

They appear to be irrational, but in ways that are hard to define. You can’t tell if they are stupid, unscrupulous, ignorant, mentally ill, emotionally unstable or what. It just looks frickin’ crazy.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:02 pm

How do you even screw up condemning Nazis?

David Duke seems delighted with Trump's response:
Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa

https://twitter.com/DrDavidDuke/status/ ... 2164304896

pvjin wrote:
zkojq wrote:
White male South Africans... I don't get on well with 90%+ of them.


I would hardly blame them for having negative attitudes towards blacks when they have to live in gated communities to avoid being robbed or killed by blacks, and face extreme discrimination from the present black regime.


1) I'm not black

2) Nearly all the white South African males I'm referring to are ones who migrated to the North Shore as soon as the end of apartheid came about and then tried to force their 'values' on New Zealand. There is very little racism in New Zealand, but nearly all of it comes from the South African/Rhodesian diaspora. At High School I had quite a few South African friends (all of whom were fine) but whenever I visited their houses afterschool I was always amazed at the attitudes of their parents on such matters....

coolian2 wrote:
There are no words.

Yep

seb146 wrote:
I am disappointed it came from Pyrex.

If you were surprised by it, you should probably read through his post history. :?

MaverickM11 wrote:
Trump literally doesn't understand *anything* beyond attention and vengeance. He's like a mentally retarded lab rat--he knows if he keeps pressing on the white supremacist lever he gets the sugar cube of attention, no matter if it's the Pope or actual Nazis.

I just about feel sorry for the american hard right having him as a leader. I dislike Le Pen just as much as anyone, but at least she can strong together a coherent argument/sentence.

Tugger wrote:
LOL you sound just like the people you claim to dislike that want state's to step in with state assistance for people. :spin: I can only imagine your fulminations if the police HAD stepped in and stopped the rally "to prevent violence". I suspect phrases like "overstepping their authority" and "they were marching peacefully, there was no need" might have been used (this is all supposition with no facts to back it up since that did not happen of course).


More like "crushing freedom" and "stamping on our democratic rights". ;)

Dutchy wrote:
John Olivers comments are harsh and true (and funny)


All the alt-righties here will be massively triggered because he's British. ;)

seb146 wrote:
I mean, Alex Jones said the whole thing was staged by Jews, so it must be true, right? :roll:

So that the "big gubmint can take our guns", presumably?

pvjin wrote:
If you want to get more blacks out of poverty add some progressive taxation

Grover Norquist now hates you.

jetero wrote:
My wet dream is for all of you to just go away. Find some island in the South Pacific that will soon be under water (not that you guys believe it), start whatever pseudo-America you want, and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

As someone who lives on a small rock in the South Pacific, I'd like to strongly suggest somewhere else.

lebda wrote:
Totally not surprised to see people on here defending the Nazis. Won't somebody think of the poor oppressed Nazis and respect their right to commit acts of violence against "degenerates"?

Y'all really need to get your head out of your butts. Somebody was killed during this.

It's somewhat amusing to see all the "no, I'm the victim here" type posts in response to the tragedy.

dtw2hyd wrote:
Even after Billy Bush tape majority of young women voted for Trump.

Source?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Calling everyone voted for Trump is a racist, is over the top.

I actually agree on this. Voting for someone they know is racist =/= to voting for that person for racist reasons. I agree with Doc though that unless they were living in a cave for the year preceding the election, it should be pretty obvious to every voter that Trump is racist/misogynist etc. For most reasonable people, one would hope that would be enough of a reason to check a different box on the ballot...but then again, if Trump's misogyny, fraudulent business dealings, mocking of the disabled reporter, calling on Russia to hack Hillary's emails, multiple bankruptcies and insulting a Gold Star family wasn't enough to put you off voting for him, I doubt the racist things he says would be a deal-breaker.

scbriml wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

i don´t think i ever brought an ID when i went to vote. We get invitations in the Mail, if you bring that you don´t need an ID. But then you need a central register.......


Yep, no voter id required in UK either (except in Northern Ireland). In fact, we don't even need the voter registration card that's posted before the election. Name and address is all that's required.

Same in here. No ID required, just bring the document that got mailed to you, otherwise you will have to wait a while as they phone up the central register.

OA412 wrote:
As to the notion that "all whites will eventually become tired of the rhetoric and the SJWs" and join forces with these pathetic Nazis, get real. I will never join forces with those mouth breathers. I will always fight against them because theirs is a disgusting ideology. As the father of one of the protesters stated, I'd rather end up in the ovens than join these people.

And that's why the neo-Nazis are so angry. They're the minority and they feel like the victims, but they're not getting much sympathy. Most white people aren't racist, they don't believe in white genocide and they have no time for a mob of Nazi sympathisers nor for fighting with them in that culture war.

Super80Fan wrote:
Well, it looks like fake news, George Soros, and the global elite have won.

No need to be anti semitic.

treetreeseven wrote:
Photo: Violent antifa thugs attack unprovoked as alt-right nationalists attempt to defend their heritage, June 6, 1944.

Whilst I see your point, I don't think the fact that the US Army was segregated back then would sit well with Antifa.

330west wrote:
In terms of straight body count, I'll give you that; fascism might be slightly "less bad" but communism isn't the threat at hand.

Under communism millions of people die due to government incompetence. Under fascism millions of people die due to hate.

salttee wrote:
John F. Kelly, the White House chief of staff, on Tuesday during Mr. Trump’s news conference at Trump Tower

I want to think that Trump is trying to distract attention from the Russia investigation....but I don't think he'd be smart enough to pull that off.

Tugger wrote:
I'll accept that you may not be actively intentionally defending a murderer, but some of the comments (and Trump is certainly highlighting this) are veering into "victim blaming".

It's not only that, but the reteric coming from socalgeo, notime, super80fan, dreadnought, pivjun, directflight etc seems to be "shut up, we're the victims here". :roll:

pvjin wrote:
also it's illegal to deny that the holocaust happened.

Why would you want to deny that the holocaust happened? It's a historical fact. Same with the first (Armenian) Holocaust in 1915, except that the Turkish Government has hired lots of lobbyists to try and fight it.

einsteinboricua wrote:
History belongs in the museum.

and books, though from the look of the neo Nazis in the videos, I'm not entirely confident that all of them are literate. Or the type of person to visit a museum, for that matter. ;)

GDB wrote:
Imagine if the Black Lives Matter or any similar group against racism came along to a demo tooled up?

Gun sales would be through the roof!

pvjin wrote:
Again, double standards which you communists refuse to acknowledge.

Could you please elaborate on exactly which participants in this thread are and aren't communists.

pvjin wrote:
Everywhere where communism has been tried it has failed to deliver and has resulted in a brutal dictatorsip of some form.

Weren't you defending Cuba over and over again here on the non-Av forum not so long ago?? :scratchchin:

lebda wrote:
Nope. Rojava and Kibbutzim are two successful examples.

Did you see the Storyville episode on anarchism in Rojava recently? I thought they did quite a good job. I'm not an anarchist by any means, but there's a very strong argument to be made for having decisions that affect people being made by the communities themselves, rather than sending all the power upwards to unresponsive political leaders.

MaverickM11 wrote:
It's entertaining watching the right jump through their own a$$hole to be apologists for Nazis. I've never seen so much 'what aboutism' in my life as right wingers trying to cover for their buddies in Charlottesville.

The TL;DR of their argument really is "give me attention, I'm the victim too".

Aesma wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Anthony Cumio hosting on Alex Jones 8/17/17

The Left Is Going Crazy With Nazi Fever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXaduRllTXM


Cumia, no ?

That guy ?

In 2014, Cumia was fired by SiriusXM Radio after posting a series of tweets, which they deemed to be "racially-charged and hate-filled"


On December 19, 2015, Cumia was in an argument with his 26-year old girlfriend Dani Brand in his house, which turned violent. He was arrested by Nassau County police on charges of strangulation, assault, criminal mischief, and unlawful imprisonment.


I guess he knows something about fever.

I guess he'd fit right in with the neo-Nazi thugs.

dik909 wrote:
If you think that the Taliban's & ISIS' destruction of historical artifacts to fit their political agenda is wrong, then you should be logically consistent and maintain that Antifa's censorship and destruction of American historical monuments to fit their political agenda is equally as wrong.

I love how you equate the destruction of 1,500 year old religious monuments with statues built in the 1920s for the purpose of showing the blacks who's in charge.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:34 pm

zkojq wrote:
dik909 wrote:
If you think that the Taliban's & ISIS' destruction of historical artifacts to fit their political agenda is wrong, then you should be logically consistent and maintain that Antifa's censorship and destruction of American historical monuments to fit their political agenda is equally as wrong.

I love how you equate the destruction of 1,500 year old religious monuments with statues built in the 1920s for the purpose of showing the blacks who's in charge.


The Devil's in the details.

The intention behind why the monuments were built is irrelevant to the fact that they are being destroyed specifically to conform to a modern political agenda.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:54 pm

zkojq wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Even after Billy Bush tape majority of young women voted for Trump.

Source?

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/opin ... ml?mcubz=0

zkojq wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Calling everyone voted for Trump is a racist, is over the top.

I actually agree on this. Voting for someone they know is racist =/= to voting for that person for racist reasons. I agree with Doc though that unless they were living in a cave for the year preceding the election, it should be pretty obvious to every voter that Trump is racist/misogynist etc. For most reasonable people, one would hope that would be enough of a reason to check a different box on the ballot...but then again, if Trump's misogyny, fraudulent business dealings, mocking of the disabled reporter, calling on Russia to hack Hillary's emails, multiple bankruptcies and insulting a Gold Star family wasn't enough to put you off voting for him, I doubt the racist things he says would be a deal-breaker.


Like I said Obama attended every mass shooting site except Oak Creek. How do you classify him? Was he too busy, those lives didn't matter or Narwhal suggested ignoring that voting block.
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:26 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
zkojq wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Even after Billy Bush tape majority of young women voted for Trump.

Source?

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/opin ... ml?mcubz=0

Where does it say "young" women in that article?
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:06 pm

zkojq wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Well, it looks like fake news, George Soros, and the global elite have won.

No need to be anti semitic.


Oh please, half of my friends are Jewish. George Soros is a vile excuse of a human being and supports Nazis because it lines his pockets.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:35 pm

What I find truly disconnected is that Trump on Tuesday stated clearly that it was up to a community if they wanted to remove a statue:
Reporter: Should statues of Robert E. Lee stay up?

Trump: I would say that's up to a local town, community, or the federal government depending on where it is located.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/15/read-th ... rence.html

So why is he saying what he is saying about the protesters who don't want the statue removed and his own statements that the statues ("beautiful statues) shouldn't be removed?

Tugg
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seb146
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:48 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Well, it looks like fake news, George Soros, and the global elite have won.

No need to be anti semitic.


Oh please, half of my friends are Jewish. George Soros is a vile excuse of a human being and supports Nazis because it lines his pockets.


I have African-American friends. So what?

Also, some neo-Nazis and some KKK drive Fords. Does that mean Ford supports the neo-Nazi and KKK?
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:06 pm

'My life is over': Man who attended Charlottesville neo-Nazi rally forced to move away after being identified


https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-life-ov ... 41074.html
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:12 pm

727LOVER wrote:
'My life is over': Man who attended Charlottesville neo-Nazi rally forced to move away after being identified


https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-life-ov ... 41074.html


So the 21 y/o is a racist or incredibly naive......

I don't feel any sympathy here. If you choose to attend such a rally and choose to remain there with those flags then you need to live up to those deeds.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:23 pm

DocLightning wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
How about the memory of the 10-20 million of people whom were murdered by the NAZI's? Jews, Gipsies, handicapped, gays, people whom opposed them etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.


I think they are remembered rather well compared to all the millions killed by Stalin and Pol Pot in name of Communism. Funny how sickle and hammer aren't treated like Nazi Swastika.


For probably the first and last time in my life, I agree with pjvin.


I respect your opinion, this one I don't subscribe to. Perhaps that is because I am European and we have a collective debt, so I might be hypersensitive to this. And I must say I was quite taken by Yad Vashem, even though I was born 32 years after the war ended.
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:25 pm

I do not think the flyer posting targeting him and his family was right and it is proper to condemn that. I feel for the guy but I know for a fact that I am not going to pick a up torch and march with people with whom I disagree with. And honestly if I showed up and that started to happen then I would just stop and leave. Mr. Kuhn made/is making the same mistake that Trump is making, he did not think about who he was with and how that might appear to imply that you support people who have views you do not support. You need to be clear and not do stupid things, but if you do then understand that there may be wide-ranging repercussions (again though I take exception to the fact that flyers were posted with his home address and endangering his family, that is not OK).

Tugg
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:04 pm

So with the outser of Steve Bannon from the White House, will this help Trump to improve his approval ratings?
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So the 21 y/o is a racist or incredibly naive......

I don't feel any sympathy here. If you choose to attend such a rally and choose to remain there with those flags then you need to live up to those deeds.

How do you feel about the publicist or "outer" making false claims against innocent people? From the linked article:

"Logan Smith, who runs the Twitter account, Yes, You’re Racist, launched a campaign to “out” potential nazis. But the controversial posts provoked a mixed reaction."

"While some support his efforts, others have warned of the dangers of doxxing - the act of sharing someone's personal information, usually a phone number or address, online."

"He also sparked controversy after incorrectly naming a number of innocent people who were not involved in the white nationalist demonstrations."
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:52 pm

Six Flags Over Texas in Arlington, (the very first Six Flags Theme Park), instead of flying the American, Texas, Mexican, Spanish, French, and Confederate States of America Flags.... Now fly only 6 American flags, in response to criticism the Park received following last weekend’s violence in Charlottesville, Va., from TMZ, Fox News and others for flying the Confederate states flag.

“We always choose to focus on celebrating the things that unite us versus those that divide us,” said Six Flags spokeswoman Sharon Parker. “As such, we have changed the flag displays in our parks to feature American flags.”

New Flash 6 Flags.... there are some vermin living and breathing air in the USA that would prefer the US Flag not be flown....

Things that unite us.... like Gay Pride Day at the Park.

Maybe they can have a BLM day at the park too...

Pretty Much Banned Now:

Image

http://www.wfaa.com/news/entertainment-news/six-flags-only-flying-american-flags-now/465371498
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Re: White supremacists march at UVA

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:55 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So the 21 y/o is a racist or incredibly naive......

I don't feel any sympathy here. If you choose to attend such a rally and choose to remain there with those flags then you need to live up to those deeds.

How do you feel about the publicist or "outer" making false claims against innocent people? From the linked article:

"Logan Smith, who runs the Twitter account, Yes, You’re Racist, launched a campaign to “out” potential nazis. But the controversial posts provoked a mixed reaction."

"While some support his efforts, others have warned of the dangers of doxxing - the act of sharing someone's personal information, usually a phone number or address, online."

"He also sparked controversy after incorrectly naming a number of innocent people who were not involved in the white nationalist demonstrations."

To put it bluntly: It happens.

It's not right that it happens, and it is not something to condone and there should be controls as much as possible put in place to control it, but misidentification happens all the time, by police, by banks (even had your card or account frozen but it turns out it wasn't yours that had the problem?), in the office, by witnesses on the stand.

The Twitter account is just a public identification process, it is full of flaws. But the pictures are in the public domain, no one hacked someone and stole private pictures. No matter what anyone could have seen the pictures and said "Hey that is ....". This is just a centralized method that is getting a lot of attention. I already think that pictures of people who are arrested should no longer be made public because the same thing happens. And that is a much larger problem when you think of it.

Tugg
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