GDB
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:13 am

Amazing how a pic of some obvious bus seats, done as satire to trigger paranoid nut jobs in Norway, has done the exact same thing to some on here.
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?

Freaksh, do tell what is happening in my own country, as stated above best not to use the Daily Mail, it's the newspaper version of your Fox 'News' which I suspect you get all this bogus nonsense you are spouting. Fox claimed in 2016 that the UK's second biggest city was a 'Muslim Caliphate' (Muslim population around 20%) to widespread ridicule, well apart from the ignorant viewers it was aimed at.
Then again, maybe best not, since you don't seem to know what is happening in your own.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:59 am

GDB wrote:
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?


Yeah they don't, just look at the response Muhammed cartoons got.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
GDB
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:46 pm

pvjin wrote:
GDB wrote:
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?


Yeah they don't, just look at the response Muhammed cartoons got.


Which proves my point, two sides of the same coin.
A symbiotic relationship.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:44 pm

Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:47 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.


But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-is-o ... -lgbt-laws
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/us/m ... ction.html
http://www.hrc.org/blog/100-anti-lgbtq- ... ed-in-2017
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:01 am

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.


But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:42 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.


But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.


The Republican party has been co-opted by a group of fanatics who believe that the United States is a Christian nation and that American law is based on the Bible. Specifically that "every life is sacred" (before it leaves the womb) and that marriage is between one man and one woman, as long as that one man divorces and re-marries women only however many times or that woman divorces and re-marries only men however many times. Otherwise, the poor are just not working hard enough to pay for things like food and housing and health care and the rich will give us everything if we just give everything to them and the gays and transgender all just need to be shipped to an island somewhere to rot. Because the Bible.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:11 pm

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.


The Republican party has been co-opted by a group of fanatics who believe that the United States is a Christian nation and that American law is based on the Bible. Specifically that "every life is sacred" (before it leaves the womb) and that marriage is between one man and one woman, as long as that one man divorces and re-marries women only however many times or that woman divorces and re-marries only men however many times. Otherwise, the poor are just not working hard enough to pay for things like food and housing and health care and the rich will give us everything if we just give everything to them and the gays and transgender all just need to be shipped to an island somewhere to rot. Because the Bible.

Another rant having little or nothing to do with a discussion about a system of religious laws supplanting our system of secular laws in the United States.
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Tugger
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:50 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Another rant having little or nothing to do with a discussion about a system of religious laws supplanting our system of secular laws in the United States.

Rants happen.

But it is true that quite a lot of people insist that the USA is a "Christian Nation" and that our laws are based on "judeo-christian" beliefs. In fact the laws are based on English common law, the Ten Commandments have next to no involvement in our laws (though people keep insisting shrines and monuments be set up to honor the amazing fact of the ten commandments influence), and the fact the USA does not and never has operated "under god" regardless of what congress stuck into the pledge of allegiance.

Some people continually want to, if not supplant then at least justify laws that are biased based on religious foundations (i.e.marriage). So while religious law may not supplant secular law sects of people continuously want its influence to be applied in law.

Tugg
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:09 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.


The Republican party has been co-opted by a group of fanatics who believe that the United States is a Christian nation and that American law is based on the Bible. Specifically that "every life is sacred" (before it leaves the womb) and that marriage is between one man and one woman, as long as that one man divorces and re-marries women only however many times or that woman divorces and re-marries only men however many times. Otherwise, the poor are just not working hard enough to pay for things like food and housing and health care and the rich will give us everything if we just give everything to them and the gays and transgender all just need to be shipped to an island somewhere to rot. Because the Bible.

Another rant having little or nothing to do with a discussion about a system of religious laws supplanting our system of secular laws in the United States.


Actually, it is on point. Right wing Republicans who deny goods and services to LGBTQ+ because of the Bible and making legal cases for it actually is what is being discussed. Right wing Republicans want to set a legal precident based on their interpretation of the Bible, just like ISIS makes laws based on their interpretation of the Koran. That is the opposition to Planned Parenthood and removing birth control costs from ACA, as well. Look up the "Hobby Lobby" case. Religious law being put ahead of the Constitution.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:34 am

seb146 wrote:
Actually, it is on point. Right wing Republicans who deny goods and services to LGBTQ+ because of the Bible and making legal cases for it actually is what is being discussed. Right wing Republicans want to set a legal precident based on their interpretation of the Bible, just like ISIS makes laws based on their interpretation of the Koran. That is the opposition to Planned Parenthood and removing birth control costs from ACA, as well. Look up the "Hobby Lobby" case. Religious law being put ahead of the Constitution.

More nonsense. There are no religious laws involved.

If you know of a religious law that is being invoked in the Hobby case or any LGBTQ case, then cite the law. All laws have names or codified numbers, and they can be cited precisely.

What you are really talking about are cases in which individuals or organizations claim protection from a law based on the provisions of another law (or section of the Constitution). They are asking for an interpretation of a law that will accommodate their religious viewpoint. They are asking that a secular law not impinge on their religious sensitivities.

None of the laws (and no part of the Constitution) are religious in the sense of being part of any religious system of jurisprudence.
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Freakysh
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:43 am

GDB wrote:
Amazing how a pic of some obvious bus seats, done as satire to trigger paranoid nut jobs in Norway, has done the exact same thing to some on here.
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?

Freaksh, do tell what is happening in my own country, as stated above best not to use the Daily Mail, it's the newspaper version of your Fox 'News' which I suspect you get all this bogus nonsense you are spouting. Fox claimed in 2016 that the UK's second biggest city was a 'Muslim Caliphate' (Muslim population around 20%) to widespread ridicule, well apart from the ignorant viewers it was aimed at.
Then again, maybe best not, since you don't seem to know what is happening in your own.


Just noticed this.

WTF you ranting about?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:07 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Actually, it is on point. Right wing Republicans who deny goods and services to LGBTQ+ because of the Bible and making legal cases for it actually is what is being discussed. Right wing Republicans want to set a legal precident based on their interpretation of the Bible, just like ISIS makes laws based on their interpretation of the Koran. That is the opposition to Planned Parenthood and removing birth control costs from ACA, as well. Look up the "Hobby Lobby" case. Religious law being put ahead of the Constitution.

More nonsense. There are no religious laws involved.

If you know of a religious law that is being invoked in the Hobby case or any LGBTQ case, then cite the law. All laws have names or codified numbers, and they can be cited precisely.


Funny, so once you get an religious idea codified as law it somehow magically becomes secular?

They are asking for an interpretation of a law that will accommodate their religious viewpoint. They are asking that a secular law not impinge on their religious sensitivities.


In other words they want to be exempt from the law, which if granted is in itself a religious law. You have to pay your employees birth control, unless you can convince the court that you are mentally ill.

I would say that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is a fully blown religious law. I don't get a special law written that allows me to violate other laws if obaying them is too much of a burden for me.
And 38 or so states have laws that specifically prevent parents from being procecuted for letting their children die over religious beliefs....

You already have different laws for religious people vs non-religious people. Without both groups effectively having the exact same rules to follow, you do have religious laws.

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Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Funny, so once you get an religious idea codified as law it somehow magically becomes secular?

Let's examine some of those ideas and decide whether our present (USA) laws are religious laws.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods..........

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image........

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain..........

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (we used to have blue laws covering this)

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land..........

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.....wife.....ass......

Love thy Neighbor as Thyself..............

We do indeed have laws that address topics such as (6) killing, (8) theft, (9) perjury. Are they to be considered "religious laws" because evidence for them can be found in the Hebrew scriptures?
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Tugger
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:26 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Let's examine some of those ideas and decide whether our present (USA) laws are religious laws.

That is an extraordinarily poor sample set, it is only the ten commandments and there fore cannot prove your point (though I will note that quite a few of them were codified in law and enforced up until the last half century or so). You would need take a much broader swath of laws that are on the books and which have backing/origins from religious ideals alone, ones that come from elsewhere than just self interest and societal health and

Tugg
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
You would need take a much broader swath of laws that are on the books and which have backing/origins from religious ideals alone, ones that come from elsewhere than just self interest and societal health and ............

Examples would be helpful, including the titles of such laws (Code chapters and numbers) and the relationship to a religion-based legal code or system.

The fact that we have laws that have some moral relevance, similar to laws that existed at the time of the Romans, early Hebrews and other societies, doesn't make them religious laws.

Influenced by religious thought? Sure. Societies always have been to some degree.
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Tugger
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:28 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Tugger wrote:
You would need take a much broader swath of laws that are on the books and which have backing/origins from religious ideals alone, ones that come from elsewhere than just self interest and societal health and ............

Examples would be helpful, including the titles of such laws (Code chapters and numbers) and the relationship to a religion-based legal code or system.

The fact that we have laws that have some moral relevance, similar to laws that existed at the time of the Romans, early Hebrews and other societies, doesn't make them religious laws.

Influenced by religious thought? Sure. Societies always have been to some degree.

No time to looks them up right now but an easy one is sodomy. Another is the exception to vaccinate for religious reasons.

Tugg
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:57 am

Tugger wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Examples would be helpful, including the titles of such laws (Code chapters and numbers) and the relationship to a religion-based legal code or system.

The fact that we have laws that have some moral relevance, similar to laws that existed at the time of the Romans, early Hebrews and other societies, doesn't make them religious laws.

Influenced by religious thought? Sure. Societies always have been to some degree.

No time to looks them up right now but an easy one is sodomy. Another is the exception to vaccinate for religious reasons.

I'm sorry that we have gone this far down the road away from the original argument that, there is no body or system or religious law in the United States similar to Sharia Law or Talmudic/Rabbinic Law.

It would be foolish to oppose the claim that some laws do exist (particularly in the states) that were strongly influenced by religious thought. A distinction must be made between Federal Law and State Laws.

I do not wish to continue examining individual laws. If you wish to argue that our legal system in based on religion I'm willing to listen to viewpoints.

Laws against sodomy (consenting adults) are unconstitutional anywhere in the United States. There are still about 10-12 states that have not yet removed anti-sodomy statutes from their books.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... g/7981025/

So far as I know there are no anti-vaccination laws. There is no uniform Federal law on the subject that I am aware of.

All of the states have laws requiring the vaccination of children for a list of about a dozen diseases. They are mandatory for enrollment in schools and day care centers. About 46 states permit exemptions for parental religious beliefs or for philosophical reasons.

State Laws: http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/sch ... -laws.aspx

I hold that a secular law does not become a religious law just because it permits exemption based on religious belief.

Cheers
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:14 am

BobPatterson wrote:
I hold that a secular law does not become a religious law just because it permits exemption based on religious belief.


That is however just a convenient believe. A secular law stops being secular when it has exemptions based on religious belief, the antonym of secular is religious/secret. So, unless you are back in the business of redefining dictionaries, any law having exemptions for religious people in it is a religious law.

Or would you say it wouldn´t be a religious law if the US president could serve only two terms, unless he was a Mormon, than he can serve unlimited terms. That is just an exemption based on religious belief after all...

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:50 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
I hold that a secular law does not become a religious law just because it permits exemption based on religious belief.


That is however just a convenient believe. A secular law stops being secular when it has exemptions based on religious belief, the antonym of secular is religious/secret. So, unless you are back in the business of redefining dictionaries, any law having exemptions for religious people in it is a religious law.

Or would you say it wouldn´t be a religious law if the US president could serve only two terms, unless he was a Mormon, than he can serve unlimited terms. That is just an exemption based on religious belief after all...

I think your hypothetical regarding a President who happens to be a Mormon is rather nonsensical (as well as unconstitutional).

Back in the days of the (active) Selective Service System (our military draft law) there were a few possible exemptions (against bearing arms) due to religious conviction. While I'm not certain about this, I think the exemptions required alternative service such as in the medical corps and perhaps other non-combatant roles.

There is no way that the Selective Service (Military Draft) Laws could be considered religious laws.
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:15 am

BobPatterson wrote:
I think your hypothetical regarding a President who happens to be a Mormon is rather nonsensical (as well as unconstitutional).


glad that you agree that a law making exemptions for religion is nonsense and, hypothetical or not, it is the exact same thing.

There is no way that the Selective Service (Military Draft) Laws could be considered religious laws.


by definition it is a religious law. If your government can force you to murder unless you are religious, you have a religious law on hand.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
I think your hypothetical regarding a President who happens to be a Mormon is rather nonsensical (as well as unconstitutional).


glad that you agree that a law making exemptions for religion is nonsense and, hypothetical or not, it is the exact same thing.

There is no way that the Selective Service (Military Draft) Laws could be considered religious laws.


by definition it is a religious law. If your government can force you to murder unless you are religious, you have a religious law on hand.

I'm sorry, but it is evident, at least to me, that you have lost the ability to reason.

You wish to establish definitions to suit your preconceptions.

And then you twist matters so that your means justify your ends.

The great majority of persons who were drafted and willingly bore arms for this country were at least nominally religious. The crosses and Mogen Davids on their graves (and other symbols) testify to that.
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:17 am

BobPatterson wrote:
You wish to establish definitions to suit your preconceptions.
.


i go by the dictionary definition, something you should seriously contemplate. People understand you better if you don´t use your own secret language where "secular" has a completely different meaning.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:07 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Funny, so once you get an religious idea codified as law it somehow magically becomes secular?

Let's examine some of those ideas and decide whether our present (USA) laws are religious laws.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods..........

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image........

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain..........

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (we used to have blue laws covering this)

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land..........

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.....wife.....ass......

Love thy Neighbor as Thyself..............

We do indeed have laws that address topics such as (6) killing, (8) theft, (9) perjury. Are they to be considered "religious laws" because evidence for them can be found in the Hebrew scriptures?


The companies and people who insist their religion is above the law are (mis)quoting the Bible and forcing their views onto everyone else.

Let's keep in mind that the Bible was written by a number of men many years after Jesus lived. It was interpreted from partially translated scripts of ancient, dead languages. The meanings of some that could be interpreted were not always interpreted correctly because the same words do not exist in every language.

Keeping all that in mind, Jesus was sent to cancel out the ancient laws and establish new laws. We get the word "Christian" from the word "Christ," the founder of the new sect. Today's "Christians" who believe that every (unborn) life is sacred and that marriage is one man/one woman only are the same who are breaking the ten laws you posted, Bob. Jesus told us, when asked directly, that the greatest commandment is "Love Thy Neighbor" and went on to explain who "thy neighbor" exactly was in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I believe we are taught to witness by example, not by word. In other words: I must live a good and righteous life, even though I will fall short of the Grace of God, and not force others by screaming, torture, false statements, and so forth.

Besides, how many Christians are being persecuted in the United States on a daily basis? How many churches has the government or other religions closed simply because they are Christian?
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
Keeping all that in mind, Jesus was sent to cancel out the ancient laws and establish new laws.


“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Matthew 5:17

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Thomas
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
Let's keep in mind that the Bible was written by a number of men many years after Jesus lived. It was interpreted from partially translated scripts of ancient, dead languages. The meanings of some that could be interpreted were not always interpreted correctly because the same words do not exist in every language.

You can learn much from an Atheist. I needn't remark further on Tommy's excellent observation. Now, a bit of critique from an Agnostic:

The Bible (Hebrew scriptures) were recorded, very much in the form that has been passed down to us, from about 500-900 years (200-600 B.C.E.) prior to the writing and codification of the Greek scriptures (100-300 C.E.), which were, to a large extent, a midrash on the Hebrew writings.

There is nothing "dead" about the Hebrew and Aramaic of the time during which "Jesus" is thought to have lived, or of the period of the writing of the Greek scriptures.

There are indeed many words in the Hebrew scriptures (about 1,000 of them) for which the meaning in unknown or uncertain. The problem is that the language evolved and that almost all of those words were no longer used in documents (mainly marriage contracts) available for study by later scholars. However, there is not a single one of these "mystery" words in the Ten Commandments of Exodus.

Please try to get your facts straight.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:31 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Let's keep in mind that the Bible was written by a number of men many years after Jesus lived. It was interpreted from partially translated scripts of ancient, dead languages. The meanings of some that could be interpreted were not always interpreted correctly because the same words do not exist in every language.

You can learn much from an Atheist. I needn't remark further on Tommy's excellent observation. Now, a bit of critique from an Agnostic:

The Bible (Hebrew scriptures) were recorded, very much in the form that has been passed down to us, from about 500-900 years (200-600 B.C.E.) prior to the writing and codification of the Greek scriptures (100-300 C.E.), which were, to a large extent, a midrash on the Hebrew writings.

There is nothing "dead" about the Hebrew and Aramaic of the time during which "Jesus" is thought to have lived, or of the period of the writing of the Greek scriptures.

There are indeed many words in the Hebrew scriptures (about 1,000 of them) for which the meaning in unknown or uncertain. The problem is that the language evolved and that almost all of those words were no longer used in documents (mainly marriage contracts) available for study by later scholars. However, there is not a single one of these "mystery" words in the Ten Commandments of Exodus.

Please try to get your facts straight.


I was with you right until your last statement. That negates everything else.

What exactly did Jesus say about killing? What did Jesus say about hate? What did Jesus say about greed?
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:32 am

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Let's keep in mind that the Bible was written by a number of men many years after Jesus lived. It was interpreted from partially translated scripts of ancient, dead languages. The meanings of some that could be interpreted were not always interpreted correctly because the same words do not exist in every language.

You can learn much from an Atheist. I needn't remark further on Tommy's excellent observation. Now, a bit of critique from an Agnostic:

The Bible (Hebrew scriptures) were recorded, very much in the form that has been passed down to us, from about 500-900 years (200-600 B.C.E.) prior to the writing and codification of the Greek scriptures (100-300 C.E.), which were, to a large extent, a midrash on the Hebrew writings.

There is nothing "dead" about the Hebrew and Aramaic of the time during which "Jesus" is thought to have lived, or of the period of the writing of the Greek scriptures.

There are indeed many words in the Hebrew scriptures (about 1,000 of them) for which the meaning in unknown or uncertain. The problem is that the language evolved and that almost all of those words were no longer used in documents (mainly marriage contracts) available for study by later scholars. However, there is not a single one of these "mystery" words in the Ten Commandments of Exodus.

Please try to get your facts straight.


I was with you right until your last statement. That negates everything else.

What statement was that, about getting your facts straight?

seb146 wrote:
What exactly did Jesus say about killing? What did Jesus say about hate? What did Jesus say about greed?

It doesn't matter what the person called "Jesus" said or didn't say. I did not address any of those points, and I fail to understand why you bring them up in this conversation.

However, I am used to you doing things like this whenever you are unable to refute points raised against you.

You are just like Mr. Trump in that respect: ignore the substance and deflect, deflect, deflect.

Anyway, no one knows exactly what the person (Jesus, Yeshua) actually said. We only know what others, writing many years after the fact, claim he said.

And we know that they made many errors while putting Greek words in his mouth.

Also, it is perfectly clear that "Jesus" did not speak Greek, and that the Greek writers did not understand Aramaic (which "Jesus" spoke).

Still, there are lovely stories being told, especially after passing through the poetic minds and pens of the King James translators.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:38 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
You can learn much from an Atheist. I needn't remark further on Tommy's excellent observation. Now, a bit of critique from an Agnostic:

The Bible (Hebrew scriptures) were recorded, very much in the form that has been passed down to us, from about 500-900 years (200-600 B.C.E.) prior to the writing and codification of the Greek scriptures (100-300 C.E.), which were, to a large extent, a midrash on the Hebrew writings.

There is nothing "dead" about the Hebrew and Aramaic of the time during which "Jesus" is thought to have lived, or of the period of the writing of the Greek scriptures.

There are indeed many words in the Hebrew scriptures (about 1,000 of them) for which the meaning in unknown or uncertain. The problem is that the language evolved and that almost all of those words were no longer used in documents (mainly marriage contracts) available for study by later scholars. However, there is not a single one of these "mystery" words in the Ten Commandments of Exodus.

Please try to get your facts straight.


I was with you right until your last statement. That negates everything else.

What statement was that, about getting your facts straight?

seb146 wrote:
What exactly did Jesus say about killing? What did Jesus say about hate? What did Jesus say about greed?

It doesn't matter what the person called "Jesus" said or didn't say. I did not address any of those points, and I fail to understand why you bring them up in this conversation.


It does matter. The people who call themselves "Christian" and claim they follow the teachings of Christ are the same ones who hate. That is the whole point. They bring up one verse from the Old Testament and conveniently forget all the stuff that was said by our founder, Jesus Christ. All the stuff He said about hating and murdering and not selling to LGBTQ+ and all that they claim Jesus wanted. It is very relevant and does matter.

Likewise, there are those who follow the teachings of Mohammed while others twist those teachings way out of proportion.
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:44 am

seb146 wrote:
What exactly did Jesus say about killing? What did Jesus say about hate? What did Jesus say about greed?


As a schizotypo he probably didn't know what he was saying, since he also said he is going to put us all in a enormous wine press, crush the blood out of all of us, and fill a lake large enough for the blood of ~7.000.000.000.000 people.

So he probably said, you don't get to kill, I will kill you all. Pretty good for us that Jesus, historic or otherwise, us unlikely to have every existed.

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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:48 am

seb146 wrote:
It does matter. The people who call themselves "Christian" and claim they follow the teachings of Christ are the same ones who hate. That is the whole point. They bring up one verse from the Old Testament and conveniently forget all the stuff that was said by our founder, Jesus Christ. All the stuff He said about hating and murdering and not selling to LGBTQ+ and all that they claim Jesus wanted. It is very relevant and does matter.

"Our founder?" When will you get real? If you want to talk about YOUR founder, start another, private, thread.

When will you learn that you may not change topics in the middle of a conversation on a specific issue?
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:11 am

seb146 wrote:
What exactly did Jesus say about killing? What did Jesus say about hate? What did Jesus say about greed?

That depended on whom he was speaking to. To one audience he spoke of turning the other cheek. In private to his followers he spoke of selling cloaks to buy swords.

Clearly, Jesus would have supported the 2nd Amendment. I doubt he would have supported the 1st.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:38 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It does matter. The people who call themselves "Christian" and claim they follow the teachings of Christ are the same ones who hate. That is the whole point. They bring up one verse from the Old Testament and conveniently forget all the stuff that was said by our founder, Jesus Christ. All the stuff He said about hating and murdering and not selling to LGBTQ+ and all that they claim Jesus wanted. It is very relevant and does matter.

"Our founder?" When will you get real? If you want to talk about YOUR founder, start another, private, thread.

When will you learn that you may not change topics in the middle of a conversation on a specific issue?


I thought you changed the subject to religions making law for all.
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:46 am

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It does matter. The people who call themselves "Christian" and claim they follow the teachings of Christ are the same ones who hate. That is the whole point. They bring up one verse from the Old Testament and conveniently forget all the stuff that was said by our founder, Jesus Christ. All the stuff He said about hating and murdering and not selling to LGBTQ+ and all that they claim Jesus wanted. It is very relevant and does matter.

"Our founder?" When will you get real? If you want to talk about YOUR founder, start another, private, thread.

When will you learn that you may not change topics in the middle of a conversation on a specific issue?


I thought you changed the subject to religions making law for all.

I have not established subjects in this thread. I have responded only to what others have written.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:02 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
"Our founder?" When will you get real? If you want to talk about YOUR founder, start another, private, thread.

When will you learn that you may not change topics in the middle of a conversation on a specific issue?


I thought you changed the subject to religions making law for all.

I have not established subjects in this thread. I have responded only to what others have written.


Welcome to a.net, Bob. Welcome to a.net.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:03 am

RoySFlying wrote:
seb146 wrote:
What exactly did Jesus say about killing? What did Jesus say about hate? What did Jesus say about greed?

That depended on whom he was speaking to. To one audience he spoke of turning the other cheek. In private to his followers he spoke of selling cloaks to buy swords.

Clearly, Jesus would have supported the 2nd Amendment. I doubt he would have supported the 1st.


Of course. That is what His whole "70X7" talk was about. The number of rounds per minute? I remember that oh, so well....
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:50 am

seb146 wrote:
RoySFlying wrote:
seb146 wrote:
What exactly did Jesus say about killing? What did Jesus say about hate? What did Jesus say about greed?

That depended on whom he was speaking to. To one audience he spoke of turning the other cheek. In private to his followers he spoke of selling cloaks to buy swords.

Clearly, Jesus would have supported the 2nd Amendment. I doubt he would have supported the 1st.


Of course. That is what His whole "70X7" talk was about. .


you make it seem like Jesus is depicted in any consistent way. Just compare Rambo Jesus in John with the Jesus in the others ....

best regards
Thomas
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:53 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
RoySFlying wrote:
That depended on whom he was speaking to. To one audience he spoke of turning the other cheek. In private to his followers he spoke of selling cloaks to buy swords.

Clearly, Jesus would have supported the 2nd Amendment. I doubt he would have supported the 1st.


Of course. That is what His whole "70X7" talk was about. .


you make it seem like Jesus is depicted in any consistent way. Just compare Rambo Jesus in John with the Jesus in the others ....

best regards
Thomas


Which is why I led with my caveat. John and Jesus were very close, so I would expect a different account of Jesus from him than the other apostles. Jesus is also mentioned in the Koran. So what? If you met my brothers, you would have a very different opinion of them than I have. It is all about context. Relationships. I get that. And I get that some people are atheists. I am just saying what I believe.
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:23 am

seb146 wrote:
Which is why I led with my caveat. John and Jesus were very close, so I would expect a different account of Jesus from him than the other apostles. .


There is very little indication that John, if he existed, had anything to do with the gospel named after him. The only author we are reasonably sure to know anything about is Paul, and he is pretty damn clear on Jesus never walking the earth in Galatians 1:11-12. According to the only person who´s authorship we know about, the gospels are made up BS. Heck, we have no old mmanuscrip of John that even contains the whole John 5:3b-4 ....
I would also expect that if any witness had anything to do with writing the gospels in any way whatsoever, they would at least agree on minor details like who the Apostels where, which day Jesus died, where he was born ....
And of course if John had gotten anything right, the gospel would end at about 2:16, when the battalion of Roman infantry, posted to guard the temple against exactly that kind of disturbance, would have hacked him to pieces.

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Thomas
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:20 pm

seb146 wrote:
Of course. That is what His whole "70X7" talk was about. The number of rounds per minute? I remember that oh, so well....

If Jesus did not say go out and buy thermonuclear devices, it was because they did not exist in his day. But he is quoted as telling his followers to buy weapons, selling their cloaks to do so if necessary. Are we really meant to believe that was to create a shortage and prevent war? Or was it that he wanted to prune the olive trees in the Garden of Gethsemane?

Now people are free to believe whatever they like. It is clear that when it comes to the gospels, they are very choosy, ignoring the bits they don't like and emphasising the bits that they do. Some will claim that he was in favour of tolerance and acceptance of those who are different, even going so far as to suggest he would accept same sex marriage. Others argue the contrary and, based on what is written in the bible, they are possibly on firmer ground. After all, is he not quoted as saying he had not come to change the law? Did he not adopt a more stronger opposition to divorce than some of his contemporaries? Why would that suggest an attitude of tolerance, let alone acceptance? We can only conclude that if we disregard the bits that we don't like.

And while he may have claimed that one should forgive a brother seven time seventy times, he did not suggest that he himself would. Far from it: it is alleged he warned of being tormented in eternal fire.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:08 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Which is why I led with my caveat. John and Jesus were very close, so I would expect a different account of Jesus from him than the other apostles. .


There is very little indication that John, if he existed, had anything to do with the gospel named after him. The only author we are reasonably sure to know anything about is Paul, and he is pretty damn clear on Jesus never walking the earth in Galatians 1:11-12. According to the only person who´s authorship we know about, the gospels are made up BS. Heck, we have no old mmanuscrip of John that even contains the whole John 5:3b-4 ....
I would also expect that if any witness had anything to do with writing the gospels in any way whatsoever, they would at least agree on minor details like who the Apostels where, which day Jesus died, where he was born ....
And of course if John had gotten anything right, the gospel would end at about 2:16, when the battalion of Roman infantry, posted to guard the temple against exactly that kind of disturbance, would have hacked him to pieces.

best regards
Thomas


Galatians 1:11-12 absolutely says Jesus existed. That Paul received the gospel from Him. According to NIV. John 2:16 talks about the change makers and profiteers in the temple. As far as weapons, there is Matthew 26:52 "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." Luke 22:49-51 does not have Jesus injuring people with weapons. Carrying them, earlier in the chapter, but not killing. So, who would Jesus bomb? Who would Jesus shoot? Who would Jesus kill?

You can keep talking all you want trying to convince me that Jesus never existed or He was an awful person but why? Why is that important to you to shake my faith? This is what I believe. You have your belief and value system. I may not agree with it or how you base it but that is yours.
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
Galatians 1:11-12 absolutely says Jesus existed.


I didn't say it didn't. ...

Who would Jesus kill?


He is savkng it up for one mother of a killing spree, after which he plans to torture a lot of us until the end of time. Sounds like a fun guy....

but why? Why is that important to you to shake my faith? .


Faith is the root cause for all evil done by otherwise good people.

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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
Galatians 1:11-12 absolutely says Jesus existed. That Paul received the gospel from Him.

It depends on the meaning attached to "existed".

It rather clearly states that John did not receive the gospel from a human being (in the flesh) but, rather, through a revelation (in the spirit or a dream) from God.

Lots of people have claimed (and continue to claim in our day) special revelations.

Of course, these revelations can never be verified.

In post #79 you mention the "teachings of Muhammad". The entire Koran, with the exception of a very few verses of personal narrative by Muhammad, or by the Angel Gabriel, is thought by believers to be a transcript of a tablet preserved in heaven and revealed to Muhammad by Gabriel. Throughout the Koran the speaker is God, not a "teacher" called Muhammad.

A more recent revelation was made to Joseph Smith who was permitted to see and translate certain writings made on gold plates. About a dozen of Smith's acolytes were also permitted to see the plates (we have their sworn testimony) which, however, seem to have disappeared or returned to heaven. This process of revelation has given us the Book of Mormon, "a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible".

Why people are prone to "believe" in other people's dreams or fantasies is a mystery to me.
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Galatians 1:11-12 absolutely says Jesus existed.


I didn't say it didn't. ...


What you said was that, somehow, the verses you referenced made it "clear" that Jesus never walked the earth. They do no such thing. For reference, here they are:

"11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."

Paul is not writing that Jesus never walked the earth. He is, in fact, stating that Jesus is God. He writes that he received the Gospel from Jesus and that it was not of human origin. Christians like myself believe Jesus to be God, so it makes sense that Paul would write this. Regardless of my own personal beliefs, there is absolutely nothing in these verses to suggest that Paul doubted that Jesus came to earth.
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:12 am

seb146 wrote:
Why is that important to you to shake my faith? This is what I believe. You have your belief and value system. I may not agree with it or how you base it but that is yours.


It is not important in the slightest to shake anybody's faith if it leads to their displaying compassion towards others. But if people put forward an argument, then it is perfectly to be expected that others will examine and respond to that argument. It doesn't matter whether the argument is one of religion or politics, or one of engineering or baking.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions and it is acceptable to respect a person's right to believe whatever they wish. But respecting a right to believe is not identical with respecting a belief itself. We can continue to respect the individual while at the same time attacking the belief. The argument that we should respect everyone's beliefs is absurd. If a belief is unsupported by evidence, is contradictory or otherwise found to be unsound, it will be challenged. It is vitally important to do so if following the belief results in harm being done to others. Isn't that why we challenge neo-nazis and those who use Islam to justify terrorism?
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:18 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Paul is not writing that Jesus never walked the earth.


He is. All over his writing. Romans 16:25-26 and tons of others, plus the simple fact that once you apply bayesian inference to the new testament, the probability of an historical Jesus is neglectable, even if you give any benefit of doubt in favor of the hypothesis.

He is, in fact, stating that Jesus is God. He writes that he received the Gospel from Jesus and that it was not of human origin.


Yes, via revelation.Today we call that schizotypal vision, or colloquially a crazy person. Revelation and scripture are the only way to learn about Jesus, therefore everyone saying they met him is lying..... consequently Paul doesn´t claim he ever met Jesus. Early church farthers where perfectly aware that the was zero evidence for Jesus ever existing, they complained about it a lot.

RoySFlying wrote:
Isn't that why we challenge neo-nazis and those who use Islam to justify terrorism?


On many levels believing non-sense that is harmless is not any better than believing stuff that isn´t, as you can be expected to act on both of them. In that sense someone believing he has to go to Church every sunday, of he won´t be getting into heaven, is no better than someone believing he has to blow up a bus full of school children to get there. The former just had the sheer luck of contracting a believe system that doesn´t require him to do that. We don´t pick what we believe, and getting rid of a believe that we have figured out to be wrong is no easier that stopping to love someone. And yet, we get our children hooked on believing stuff without any evidence for it, and not to question certain believes. That is like parents sharing their cocaine with their kids. And i guess we all agree that ain´t right, so why is training their brains to be susceptible to fundamentalist ideas?

In that sense White Supremacy or Nazi ideology are the same as religion. Without the groundwork laid by their, often well meaning, parents, both wouldn´t exist. It is the root of all evil done by good people.

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Thomas
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dik909
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:49 am

seb146 wrote:
And that is because there is the reinforced stereotype that "all Muslims" are violent. For years, the right has perpetuated this stereotype and people believe it. There are violent people who happen to practice Islam. That does not make all Muslims violent. If people want to use that reasoning, all Christians are violent because there are some Christians who are violent. Same logic.


Ugh, this was painful to read.

Fact, no true thinker claims that "all Muslims" are violent. The claim IS that the Koran, in numerous places, proscribes violence against non-believers. Compare that to the Old Testament, where the violent passages were overwhelmingly descriptive of historical events, not proscriptive.

Early in Md.'s "ministry" he claimed Islam was peaceful; but as time went on he started waging wars of aggression against non-believers. Surah 9, hands-down the most violent chapter in the Koran, was the last to be revealed to Md. It follows, then, that the Koran ends with Md.'s final marching orders being, "fight the infidel." This is how Radical Islamists justify their action. There are numerous ex-Muslims who have come forward and revealed this. Verily, violent Muslims are practicing orthodoxy; peaceful Muslims are nominal. Taqiya is an interesting doctrine within Shia Islam that I recommend you familiarize yourself with, too.

Tu Quoques don't make a right. ;)
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:56 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Anyway, no one knows exactly what the person (Jesus, Yeshua) actually said. We only know what others, writing many years after the fact, claim he said.


How many ?

BobPatterson wrote:
And we know that they made many errors while putting Greek words in his mouth.


To say this presupposes that we have accurate knowledge of what Jesus originally said. So, what are your sources ?

BobPatterson wrote:
Also, it is perfectly clear that "Jesus" did not speak Greek, and that the Greek writers did not understand Aramaic (which "Jesus" spoke).


What sources led you to the conclusion that the Greek writers didn't understand Aramaic ?

BobPatterson wrote:
Still, there are lovely stories being told, especially after passing through the poetic minds and pens of the King James translators.


You do realize that the KJV contains numerous extra passages which are found nowhere in the primary sources, yes ?

Should we not trust the translation which most closely corresponds to our earliest NT manuscripts ??
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:22 am

dik909 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Anyway, no one knows exactly what the person (Jesus, Yeshua) actually said. We only know what others, writing many years after the fact, claim he said.


How many ?


if he lived, which is unlikely, between 40 and 70 years. Some scholars put it later, the earliest tiny scrap of text we have is dated no earlier than 125 CE.

To say this presupposes that we have accurate knowledge of what Jesus originally said. So, what are your sources ?


Nope, it doesn.t presuppose that. We can compare the meaning of Greek words at the time we supposed they where written vs. how it was actually translated later. There is little indication that the word almah was used meaning "virgin" at the time of its writing.

What sources led you to the conclusion that the Greek writers didn't understand Aramaic ?


The fact that the first translation from Aramaic to Greek comes with a disclaimer saying this translations contains errors is a pretty strong indication that Aramaic was dying out among those that made the translation. It also is a good indication that they did not deliberately change the meaning.

You do realize that the KJV contains numerous extra passages which are found nowhere in the primary sources, yes ?
[/quote][/quote]

I guess that makes it Fanfiction. Not that unusual for fictional stories to get that...

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Thomas
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:24 am

tommy1808 wrote:

I guess that makes it Fanfiction. Not that unusual for fictional stories to get that...

best regards
Thomas


Sorry, I'm not clear on what exactly you're claiming. The entire Bible is fiction ? Certain portions of it ? Jesus' existence ?
The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.

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