GDB
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:13 am

Amazing how a pic of some obvious bus seats, done as satire to trigger paranoid nut jobs in Norway, has done the exact same thing to some on here.
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?

Freaksh, do tell what is happening in my own country, as stated above best not to use the Daily Mail, it's the newspaper version of your Fox 'News' which I suspect you get all this bogus nonsense you are spouting. Fox claimed in 2016 that the UK's second biggest city was a 'Muslim Caliphate' (Muslim population around 20%) to widespread ridicule, well apart from the ignorant viewers it was aimed at.
Then again, maybe best not, since you don't seem to know what is happening in your own.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:59 am

GDB wrote:
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?


Yeah they don't, just look at the response Muhammed cartoons got.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
GDB
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:46 pm

pvjin wrote:
GDB wrote:
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?


Yeah they don't, just look at the response Muhammed cartoons got.


Which proves my point, two sides of the same coin.
A symbiotic relationship.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:44 pm

Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:47 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.


But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-is-o ... -lgbt-laws
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/us/m ... ction.html
http://www.hrc.org/blog/100-anti-lgbtq- ... ed-in-2017
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:01 am

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.


But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.
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seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:42 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Religious Laws Long Recognized by U.S. Courts

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129731015

However, our secular laws are "superior" to religious laws decided by Rabbinic courts or Sharia law.

The country's laws are not in danger of being overtaken by religious legal systems.


But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.


The Republican party has been co-opted by a group of fanatics who believe that the United States is a Christian nation and that American law is based on the Bible. Specifically that "every life is sacred" (before it leaves the womb) and that marriage is between one man and one woman, as long as that one man divorces and re-marries women only however many times or that woman divorces and re-marries only men however many times. Otherwise, the poor are just not working hard enough to pay for things like food and housing and health care and the rich will give us everything if we just give everything to them and the gays and transgender all just need to be shipped to an island somewhere to rot. Because the Bible.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:11 pm

seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But they are. Look at the bakers in Oregon and Colorado. They claim their religious freedom was infringed upon because they did not bake a cake for gay couples. They could not discriminate based on religion. There are still places in the United States where people can be denied housing based on their LGBTQ+ status. Which now has religious backing. There are law suits coming through the courts using Christianity as a basis for denying LGBTQ+ rights. Remember the North Carolina "bathroom bill?" That had a religious back ground, too.

There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.


The Republican party has been co-opted by a group of fanatics who believe that the United States is a Christian nation and that American law is based on the Bible. Specifically that "every life is sacred" (before it leaves the womb) and that marriage is between one man and one woman, as long as that one man divorces and re-marries women only however many times or that woman divorces and re-marries only men however many times. Otherwise, the poor are just not working hard enough to pay for things like food and housing and health care and the rich will give us everything if we just give everything to them and the gays and transgender all just need to be shipped to an island somewhere to rot. Because the Bible.

Another rant having little or nothing to do with a discussion about a system of religious laws supplanting our system of secular laws in the United States.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:50 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Another rant having little or nothing to do with a discussion about a system of religious laws supplanting our system of secular laws in the United States.

Rants happen.

But it is true that quite a lot of people insist that the USA is a "Christian Nation" and that our laws are based on "judeo-christian" beliefs. In fact the laws are based on English common law, the Ten Commandments have next to no involvement in our laws (though people keep insisting shrines and monuments be set up to honor the amazing fact of the ten commandments influence), and the fact the USA does not and never has operated "under god" regardless of what congress stuck into the pledge of allegiance.

Some people continually want to, if not supplant then at least justify laws that are biased based on religious foundations (i.e.marriage). So while religious law may not supplant secular law sects of people continuously want its influence to be applied in law.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:09 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
There is, in the United States, no "Christian religious law system" equivalent to Rabbinic courts (Talmudic law) or Sharia law.

This does not mean that Christians (or members of other religions) cannot favor or disfavor certain of our secular laws or put forward new ones.

I do not mean to suggest that, in other countries, there are no laws that might be viewed as inspired by religion.


The Republican party has been co-opted by a group of fanatics who believe that the United States is a Christian nation and that American law is based on the Bible. Specifically that "every life is sacred" (before it leaves the womb) and that marriage is between one man and one woman, as long as that one man divorces and re-marries women only however many times or that woman divorces and re-marries only men however many times. Otherwise, the poor are just not working hard enough to pay for things like food and housing and health care and the rich will give us everything if we just give everything to them and the gays and transgender all just need to be shipped to an island somewhere to rot. Because the Bible.

Another rant having little or nothing to do with a discussion about a system of religious laws supplanting our system of secular laws in the United States.


Actually, it is on point. Right wing Republicans who deny goods and services to LGBTQ+ because of the Bible and making legal cases for it actually is what is being discussed. Right wing Republicans want to set a legal precident based on their interpretation of the Bible, just like ISIS makes laws based on their interpretation of the Koran. That is the opposition to Planned Parenthood and removing birth control costs from ACA, as well. Look up the "Hobby Lobby" case. Religious law being put ahead of the Constitution.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:34 am

seb146 wrote:
Actually, it is on point. Right wing Republicans who deny goods and services to LGBTQ+ because of the Bible and making legal cases for it actually is what is being discussed. Right wing Republicans want to set a legal precident based on their interpretation of the Bible, just like ISIS makes laws based on their interpretation of the Koran. That is the opposition to Planned Parenthood and removing birth control costs from ACA, as well. Look up the "Hobby Lobby" case. Religious law being put ahead of the Constitution.

More nonsense. There are no religious laws involved.

If you know of a religious law that is being invoked in the Hobby case or any LGBTQ case, then cite the law. All laws have names or codified numbers, and they can be cited precisely.

What you are really talking about are cases in which individuals or organizations claim protection from a law based on the provisions of another law (or section of the Constitution). They are asking for an interpretation of a law that will accommodate their religious viewpoint. They are asking that a secular law not impinge on their religious sensitivities.

None of the laws (and no part of the Constitution) are religious in the sense of being part of any religious system of jurisprudence.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Freakysh
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:43 am

GDB wrote:
Amazing how a pic of some obvious bus seats, done as satire to trigger paranoid nut jobs in Norway, has done the exact same thing to some on here.
It was a joke FFS! Then again, the intolerant, bigoted, ignorant or just plain stupid don't really get humour, do they?

Freaksh, do tell what is happening in my own country, as stated above best not to use the Daily Mail, it's the newspaper version of your Fox 'News' which I suspect you get all this bogus nonsense you are spouting. Fox claimed in 2016 that the UK's second biggest city was a 'Muslim Caliphate' (Muslim population around 20%) to widespread ridicule, well apart from the ignorant viewers it was aimed at.
Then again, maybe best not, since you don't seem to know what is happening in your own.


Just noticed this.

WTF you ranting about?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:07 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Actually, it is on point. Right wing Republicans who deny goods and services to LGBTQ+ because of the Bible and making legal cases for it actually is what is being discussed. Right wing Republicans want to set a legal precident based on their interpretation of the Bible, just like ISIS makes laws based on their interpretation of the Koran. That is the opposition to Planned Parenthood and removing birth control costs from ACA, as well. Look up the "Hobby Lobby" case. Religious law being put ahead of the Constitution.

More nonsense. There are no religious laws involved.

If you know of a religious law that is being invoked in the Hobby case or any LGBTQ case, then cite the law. All laws have names or codified numbers, and they can be cited precisely.


Funny, so once you get an religious idea codified as law it somehow magically becomes secular?

They are asking for an interpretation of a law that will accommodate their religious viewpoint. They are asking that a secular law not impinge on their religious sensitivities.


In other words they want to be exempt from the law, which if granted is in itself a religious law. You have to pay your employees birth control, unless you can convince the court that you are mentally ill.

I would say that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is a fully blown religious law. I don't get a special law written that allows me to violate other laws if obaying them is too much of a burden for me.
And 38 or so states have laws that specifically prevent parents from being procecuted for letting their children die over religious beliefs....

You already have different laws for religious people vs non-religious people. Without both groups effectively having the exact same rules to follow, you do have religious laws.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Funny, so once you get an religious idea codified as law it somehow magically becomes secular?

Let's examine some of those ideas and decide whether our present (USA) laws are religious laws.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods..........

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image........

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain..........

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (we used to have blue laws covering this)

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land..........

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.....wife.....ass......

Love thy Neighbor as Thyself..............

We do indeed have laws that address topics such as (6) killing, (8) theft, (9) perjury. Are they to be considered "religious laws" because evidence for them can be found in the Hebrew scriptures?
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Tugger
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:26 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Let's examine some of those ideas and decide whether our present (USA) laws are religious laws.

That is an extraordinarily poor sample set, it is only the ten commandments and there fore cannot prove your point (though I will note that quite a few of them were codified in law and enforced up until the last half century or so). You would need take a much broader swath of laws that are on the books and which have backing/origins from religious ideals alone, ones that come from elsewhere than just self interest and societal health and

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
You would need take a much broader swath of laws that are on the books and which have backing/origins from religious ideals alone, ones that come from elsewhere than just self interest and societal health and ............

Examples would be helpful, including the titles of such laws (Code chapters and numbers) and the relationship to a religion-based legal code or system.

The fact that we have laws that have some moral relevance, similar to laws that existed at the time of the Romans, early Hebrews and other societies, doesn't make them religious laws.

Influenced by religious thought? Sure. Societies always have been to some degree.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:28 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Tugger wrote:
You would need take a much broader swath of laws that are on the books and which have backing/origins from religious ideals alone, ones that come from elsewhere than just self interest and societal health and ............

Examples would be helpful, including the titles of such laws (Code chapters and numbers) and the relationship to a religion-based legal code or system.

The fact that we have laws that have some moral relevance, similar to laws that existed at the time of the Romans, early Hebrews and other societies, doesn't make them religious laws.

Influenced by religious thought? Sure. Societies always have been to some degree.

No time to looks them up right now but an easy one is sodomy. Another is the exception to vaccinate for religious reasons.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:57 am

Tugger wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Examples would be helpful, including the titles of such laws (Code chapters and numbers) and the relationship to a religion-based legal code or system.

The fact that we have laws that have some moral relevance, similar to laws that existed at the time of the Romans, early Hebrews and other societies, doesn't make them religious laws.

Influenced by religious thought? Sure. Societies always have been to some degree.

No time to looks them up right now but an easy one is sodomy. Another is the exception to vaccinate for religious reasons.

I'm sorry that we have gone this far down the road away from the original argument that, there is no body or system or religious law in the United States similar to Sharia Law or Talmudic/Rabbinic Law.

It would be foolish to oppose the claim that some laws do exist (particularly in the states) that were strongly influenced by religious thought. A distinction must be made between Federal Law and State Laws.

I do not wish to continue examining individual laws. If you wish to argue that our legal system in based on religion I'm willing to listen to viewpoints.

Laws against sodomy (consenting adults) are unconstitutional anywhere in the United States. There are still about 10-12 states that have not yet removed anti-sodomy statutes from their books.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... g/7981025/

So far as I know there are no anti-vaccination laws. There is no uniform Federal law on the subject that I am aware of.

All of the states have laws requiring the vaccination of children for a list of about a dozen diseases. They are mandatory for enrollment in schools and day care centers. About 46 states permit exemptions for parental religious beliefs or for philosophical reasons.

State Laws: http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/sch ... -laws.aspx

I hold that a secular law does not become a religious law just because it permits exemption based on religious belief.

Cheers
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:14 am

BobPatterson wrote:
I hold that a secular law does not become a religious law just because it permits exemption based on religious belief.


That is however just a convenient believe. A secular law stops being secular when it has exemptions based on religious belief, the antonym of secular is religious/secret. So, unless you are back in the business of redefining dictionaries, any law having exemptions for religious people in it is a religious law.

Or would you say it wouldn´t be a religious law if the US president could serve only two terms, unless he was a Mormon, than he can serve unlimited terms. That is just an exemption based on religious belief after all...

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:50 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
I hold that a secular law does not become a religious law just because it permits exemption based on religious belief.


That is however just a convenient believe. A secular law stops being secular when it has exemptions based on religious belief, the antonym of secular is religious/secret. So, unless you are back in the business of redefining dictionaries, any law having exemptions for religious people in it is a religious law.

Or would you say it wouldn´t be a religious law if the US president could serve only two terms, unless he was a Mormon, than he can serve unlimited terms. That is just an exemption based on religious belief after all...

I think your hypothetical regarding a President who happens to be a Mormon is rather nonsensical (as well as unconstitutional).

Back in the days of the (active) Selective Service System (our military draft law) there were a few possible exemptions (against bearing arms) due to religious conviction. While I'm not certain about this, I think the exemptions required alternative service such as in the medical corps and perhaps other non-combatant roles.

There is no way that the Selective Service (Military Draft) Laws could be considered religious laws.
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:15 am

BobPatterson wrote:
I think your hypothetical regarding a President who happens to be a Mormon is rather nonsensical (as well as unconstitutional).


glad that you agree that a law making exemptions for religion is nonsense and, hypothetical or not, it is the exact same thing.

There is no way that the Selective Service (Military Draft) Laws could be considered religious laws.


by definition it is a religious law. If your government can force you to murder unless you are religious, you have a religious law on hand.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
I think your hypothetical regarding a President who happens to be a Mormon is rather nonsensical (as well as unconstitutional).


glad that you agree that a law making exemptions for religion is nonsense and, hypothetical or not, it is the exact same thing.

There is no way that the Selective Service (Military Draft) Laws could be considered religious laws.


by definition it is a religious law. If your government can force you to murder unless you are religious, you have a religious law on hand.

I'm sorry, but it is evident, at least to me, that you have lost the ability to reason.

You wish to establish definitions to suit your preconceptions.

And then you twist matters so that your means justify your ends.

The great majority of persons who were drafted and willingly bore arms for this country were at least nominally religious. The crosses and Mogen Davids on their graves (and other symbols) testify to that.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:17 am

BobPatterson wrote:
You wish to establish definitions to suit your preconceptions.
.


i go by the dictionary definition, something you should seriously contemplate. People understand you better if you don´t use your own secret language where "secular" has a completely different meaning.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
seb146
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:07 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Funny, so once you get an religious idea codified as law it somehow magically becomes secular?

Let's examine some of those ideas and decide whether our present (USA) laws are religious laws.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods..........

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image........

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain..........

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (we used to have blue laws covering this)

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land..........

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.....wife.....ass......

Love thy Neighbor as Thyself..............

We do indeed have laws that address topics such as (6) killing, (8) theft, (9) perjury. Are they to be considered "religious laws" because evidence for them can be found in the Hebrew scriptures?


The companies and people who insist their religion is above the law are (mis)quoting the Bible and forcing their views onto everyone else.

Let's keep in mind that the Bible was written by a number of men many years after Jesus lived. It was interpreted from partially translated scripts of ancient, dead languages. The meanings of some that could be interpreted were not always interpreted correctly because the same words do not exist in every language.

Keeping all that in mind, Jesus was sent to cancel out the ancient laws and establish new laws. We get the word "Christian" from the word "Christ," the founder of the new sect. Today's "Christians" who believe that every (unborn) life is sacred and that marriage is one man/one woman only are the same who are breaking the ten laws you posted, Bob. Jesus told us, when asked directly, that the greatest commandment is "Love Thy Neighbor" and went on to explain who "thy neighbor" exactly was in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I believe we are taught to witness by example, not by word. In other words: I must live a good and righteous life, even though I will fall short of the Grace of God, and not force others by screaming, torture, false statements, and so forth.

Besides, how many Christians are being persecuted in the United States on a daily basis? How many churches has the government or other religions closed simply because they are Christian?
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tommy1808
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Re: Norway to crack down on Islamic bus seats

Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
Keeping all that in mind, Jesus was sent to cancel out the ancient laws and establish new laws.


“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Matthew 5:17

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.

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