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ltbewr wrote:

The pardon of Apario sends a terrible message to law enforcement and panders to the worst in human nature.

Yes under normal, but anyone with half a brain cell left can see that there is a moral vacuum around 1700 Pennsylvania avenue or Mar-a-Lago.

Ken777 wrote:

I have to admit that announcing the pardon just as a massive hurricane was hitting the Texas coast, with days or disasters projected is the most cowardice act of any president in my 73 years.

There are two good points to the pardon, however. Joe has to ADMIT GUILT as part of accepting the pardon. At the same time he cannot lien in any future deposition in civil suits, which is going to piss him off big time.

BTW, Gorka has resigned. A real pig of a man who now can crawl back in his hole. Can we say that's another good step by Trump's Chief of Staff?

They were saying on MSNBC that when you are pardoned or given immunity in a court case then you lose the right to plead the 5th and if you refuse to testify you are charged with contempt of court or obstruction of justice. They were saying that this sets a precedent in the Russia investigations that Trump can simply Pardon again if anyone on his staff or in his family does in fact get a pardon and refuses to testify.

I am no means a legal expert but it sets a horrible precedent as said.

In the end, the Maricopa County (Arizona) had the last say , by kicking Apario sorry butt to the curb in the last election in a landslide.

Unsurprising.

Go back a few years and Donny and Arpaio were best buds, bonding over President Obama's birth certificate. Remember how Donny 'sent investigators to Hawaii who couldn't believe what they were finding'? Arpaio had his cold case posse spend a fair amount of time and money 'investigating' it as well, which ended up as a truly bizarre story involving a used car salesman, a fraudster, secret roundtrips to Washington staet, undercover recordings, and what else you had.

I should not be suprised by the Trumps actions, but I am. I agree there is a moral vacum around the WH, but what concerns me more as someone outside the country looking in, is that there are 3 more years to go yet. I do worry for the USA.

Another disappointing action by Trump. But am I surprised? No. He has continually wasted his time in office with actions and statements that waste the effectiveness of a presidency.

This was a completely unneeded action by him, so why do it at all?

Tugg

Funny how we did not hear people outraged when Obama pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists (who never expressed guilt...) or traitors, but are outraged that an 85-year old guy won't be sent to prison for 6 months because of a witch-hunt of a politicized DOJ that refused him a jury trial in contravention with the U.S. constitution...

Pyrex wrote:

Funny how we did not hear people outraged when Obama pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists (who never expressed guilt...) or traitors, but are outraged that an 85-year old guy won't be sent to prison for 6 months because of a witch-hunt of a politicized DOJ that refused him a jury trial in contravention with the U.S. constitution...

Petty Offenses. There is no right to a jury trial for a petty offense. If the maximum punishment for a crime is incarceration for 6 months or less, “there is a very strong presumption that the offense is petty and defendant is not entitled to a jury trial.” United States v. Ballek, 170 F.3d 871, 876 (9th Cir. 1999).

https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/district/guides/MJTP.pdf

Regarding the Puerto Rico terrorist, whom I'm certain you're talking about Oscar Lopez Rivera...It was a head scratcher, but the guy is 75yrs old and has served 35 years. I suggest at his age he probably doesn't present a danger to the community any more.

He called his own jail a "concentration camp", so no wonder Trump loves him. Breaking the neck of inmates, ignoring sexual abuse of minors, burning a puppy to death, ignoring sky high inmate deaths, exposing inmates to heatstroke on purpose, arresting journalists for exposing the fat old Nazi for who he is, incarcerating innocent people b/c they're brown, racial profiling, and that's just the tip of the iceberg...this is what the leader of evangelicals and republicans stands for, and of course every last one of his voters. America 2017.

https://twitter.com/phoenixnewtimes/sta ... 4087334914

MaverickM11 wrote:

He called his own jail a "concentration camp", so no wonder Trump loves him. Breaking the neck of inmates, ignoring sexual abuse of minors, burning a puppy to death, ignoring sky high inmate deaths, exposing inmates to heatstroke on purpose, arresting journalists for exposing the fat old Nazi for who he is, incarcerating innocent people b/c they're brown, racial profiling, and that's just the tip of the iceberg...this is what the leader of evangelicals and republicans stands for, and of course every last one of his voters. America 2017.

https://twitter.com/phoenixnewtimes/sta ... 4087334914

Slightly off topic, is Trump sending all those prisoners to Guantanamo Bay, like he promised?

Pyrex wrote:

Funny how we did not hear people outraged when Obama pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists (who never expressed guilt...) or traitors, but are outraged that an 85-year old guy won't be sent to prison for 6 months because of a witch-hunt of a politicized DOJ that refused him a jury trial in contravention with the U.S. constitution...

Trump's DOJ prosecuted him. The judge who recommended the charges against him was a Bush appointee. Stop with this 'politicized DOJ' nonsense.

And Obama didn't pardon a traitor. Stop with the lies about that as well.

Pyrex wrote:

Funny how we did not hear people outraged when Obama pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists (who never expressed guilt...) or traitors, but are outraged that an 85-year old guy won't be sent to prison for 6 months because of a witch-hunt of a politicized DOJ that refused him a jury trial in contravention with the U.S. constitution...

Whatever the offense is, there is no comparison possible between pardoning someone who hasn't been sentenced yet, and pardoning someone who spent decades in jail already.

This thread would not exist if Arpaio was pardoned after 35 years in jail !

BTW I don't think Arpaio has expressed remorse either, nor even admitted any wrongdoing.

Pyrex wrote:

Obama pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists

Who are you talking about?

A little research shows me that Obama COMMUTED the sentence of Oscar López Rivera. The person went to prison, Obama did not pardon him.

A pardon is an "executive forgiveness of crime." It returns a felons right to vote, sit on juries, and possess firearms. Pardons do not normally expunge criminal records (but can if directed),

A commutation is an "executive lowering of the penalty." The crime isn't forgiven but the penalty is reduced.

I found this interesting on the DoJ website (I wonder if they're going to change it?)"

A pardon is an expression of the President’s forgiveness and ordinarily is granted in recognition of the applicant’s acceptance of responsibility for the crime and established good conduct for a significant period of time after conviction or completion of sentence.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/frequent ... clemency#1

Tugg

Trump is what he is - a textbook grandiose narcissist, motivated only by praise and the arbitrary exercise of power to make himself feel better, and - loose cannon aspects aside - a useful idiot for the Russians and the Chinese and even the North Koreans, and for the forces in American society which care only about continuing to strip-mine the wealth of the 99% in favor of the 1%.

Arpaio, on the other hand? Arpaio is straight up evil, period point blank. He is a bad person. He inflicts sorrow and misery upon others and takes joy in it.

I think the absolute worst aspect of this pardon is that it was done purely as a dogwhistle to the authoritarian right, purely to throw scraps to the frothing wild-eyed worst of Trump's “base” - the Trump supporters who are straight-up racists and xenophobic bigots and LITERAL NAZIS.

Trump s#!^ all over the fundamental civil rights of *human beings* to score points with the worst of his “base” because they hate and fear brown people, period point blank. That IS the reason, along with a side dish of “you’re not the boss of me!” from a gilded tin-pot dictator with the emotional maturity of a five year old and the blank soul of somebody who’d sell their grandmother’s kidney if it would win them any praise to do so.

And you know what? Trump didn’t pardon Arpaio to score points as part of a political strategy. He did so in order to secure a supply of adulation from the chickenhawk bigots who’ve already heaped so much on him and will continue to do so long past the point at which the Titanic has mercifully slipped beneath the waves. Honestly, that’s why I don’t consider Trump evil per se like I do Arpaio - true pathological narcissism is essentially mindless in its pursuit of status.

Where we go in the next two to three years as a nation will say more than anything else about where we’ll go in the next twenty to thirty. It will also be a referendum on the 46.1% of American voters who cast their ballots for Trump.

Looking at the numbers, I see that about half of Trump voters - around 25% of voters overall - are the frothing torch-waving zealots who will stand by their naked emperor to the point of his comeuppance and beyond. These are the true deplorables, the authoritarian right. They cannot be won over, appeased, or redeemed. They would support - and do support, and have supported - literal Nazis and white supremacists and all manner of ugly wannabe Auschwitz orderlies. These people exist in every society and are a lost cause. The best one can do is contain them and try to rescue their kids.

It’s the other half of Trump voters, nearly a quarter of general voters, who concern me. I think many of these people *do* have a conscience. I think that many of them are *not* racist in the sense of active, virulent racism, which is something altogether different from passive status-quo racism. I think they have priorities and viewpoints which I don’t fully understand, but that otherwise many of them have the same basic motivations as I, and many of them might help a friend or neighbor in time of need, and many of them do not wish to see sorrow visited upon others.

It’s time for these people to own the product of their votes and F*(&!^@ HANDLE IT. And they can do so by speaking out, and they can do so with their future votes. And we are going to see whether they rise to the occasion like Americans, or whether they slink silently into a torch-lit camp with history’s worst, the wannabe echo of the most vile depravity the human race ever saw.

Richard Nixon had ten times the personal integrity of Trump and his entire cabinet of scheming Machiavellian remora-fish combined. And eventually many in his party denounced him.

We’ll see how this goes.

treetreeseven wrote:

Richard Nixon had ten times the personal integrity of Trump .........

The name "Richard Nixon" and the term "personal integrity" do not, in reference to him, belong in the same sentence, unless you are indicating his lack of it..

He was as bad as Joe McCarthy, absent the alcohol problem, only more cunning.

BobPatterson wrote:

The name "Richard Nixon" and the term "personal integrity" do not, in reference to him, belong in the same sentence, unless you are indicating his lack of it..
He was as bad as Joe McCarthy, absent the alcohol problem, only more cunning.

While on that subject, Roy Cohen deserves a mention.
He spread his venom for McCarthy and was a Tutor for our dear President Trump.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06 ... lationship

They don't come any lower than Roy Cohen.

salttee wrote:

While on that subject, Roy Cohen deserves a mention.
He spread his venom for McCarthy and was a Tutor for our dear President Trump.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06 ... lationship

They don't come any lower than Roy Cohen.

Roy Cohn, not Cohen.

Yea, the guy you swept under the table.

salttee wrote:

Yea, the guy you swept under the table.

I did not "sweep" Mr. Cohn "under the table". There was no need for me to mention him in the post about Mr. Nixon.

I merely pointed out your error is misspelling his name.

And, again, you demonstrate a need to deflect, in the manner of Mr. Trump, rather than learning and moving on.

List of 151 people pardoned by Bill Clinton:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ll_Clinton

910A wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

treetreeseven wrote:

What's disturbing is how long it took the people of Maricopa County to show "Sheriff Joe" the door.

As a resident of Maricopa County, I'm disturbed at the thought that someone who doesn't live here believes they have a better idea of what voters here should value. While he made some missteps, Joe Arpaio did a lot of good for the county during his tenure and won over the people with his idea of actually being tough on crime and criminals. You don't get elected to six consecutive terms without meeting the expectations of the people.

Some mistakes, you're kidding...When I worked for him from 5/96-2/99 (what a nightmare) it was all about show and not being "tough on crime". Shoot he would call us at home at 2am, hey I got this great idea. Sheriff that idea is illegal..Pink underwear, chain gangs, tent city..nothing of substance, the first four term illegals immigrants weren't on his radar, but allowing deputies to fail to investigate 400 sexual abuse cases involving children which cost the taxpayers $3.5m, then he demanded a armor plated Crown Vic, which cost $70K to purchase, and it turned out to be so heavy, he used it once and parked it. Spending $750K on a jail transport bus without getting bids, so the Board of Supervisor refused to registered it, purchasing some Harley Davidson motorcycles again without a bid or permission from a dealer in Cave Creek which was owned by the Hells Angels as a cover, overspending his budget year after year, yet no pay raises for his deputies, and don't forget the SWAT raid he had planned out for the Mesa City Hall to obtain all the employment records of the city employees, (in that case his goon squad met up with real police officers from Mesa PD and the deputies were sent packing); then we have him arresting two sitting Superior Court Judge who wouldn't stop the building on a new court house, another million dollars, arresting a member of the Elected Board of Supervisors (another million), arresting the County Elected School Officer (another 50K). His department misspent $99.5m in county taxes that were for the operation of the jail, during an inventory of equipment, the Sheriff Department couldn't account for 13 Ford Expeditions, and the taxpayers have spend over $200m is just legal fees for him.

Prior to him being first elected, he was basically a driver for his wife's travel agency and in 2014 it was discovered that he owned $2m in commercial real estate free and clear on a $100,000 Sheriff salary and his federal retirement.

One gets elected six times, by pulling the wool over uninformed citizens that have no clue how a criminal justice agency is supposed to work and making up ridicuiously false claims against his opponents such as having sex with his mother 30 years ago and he claimed the person that clobbered him at the ballot box this last November was a wife beater. I should note the Sheriff race was the first one called after the polls closed here in Maricopa County, it was within the first hour.

WoW... this resume would warm the heart of many a Democratic Politician!!

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. I expect the GOP to be the party of law and order.

BobPatterson wrote:

treetreeseven wrote:

Richard Nixon had ten times the personal integrity of Trump .........

The name "Richard Nixon" and the term "personal integrity" do not, in reference to him, belong in the same sentence, unless you are indicating his lack of it..

Agreed.

And yet, here we are.

Last time i checked the responsibility of immigration belongs to the federal government. racially profiling people based on their ethnicity is a clear violation of the constitution. No matter what side of the aisle you are on, it's clear the sheriff thought he was above the law. He cost the taxpayers a big chunk of change..

At least 11 individuals filed lawsuits or legal claims as a result of being targeted by Arpaio and Thomas. The county settled all 11 cases, at significant cost:[
Gary Donahoe, retired Superior Court judge: $1,275,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $767,127.
Kenneth Fields, retired Superior Court judge: $100,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $81,040.
Barbara Mundell, retired Superior Court judge: $500,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $134,273.
Anna Baca, retired Superior Court judge: $100,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $112,588.
Stephen Wetzel, former county technology director: $75,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $107,647.
Sandi Wilson, deputy county manager and county budget director: $122,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $458,318.
Don Stapley, former county supervisor: $3.5 million settlement. County legal expenses: $1,682,020.
Mary Rose Wilcox, county supervisor: $975,000 settlement, plus 9,938 in court-ordered legal costs. County legal expenses to date: over $375,442.
Susan Schuerman, Stapley’s executive assistant: $500,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $200,201.
Conley Wolfswinkel, Stapley’s business associate: $1,400,000 settlement. County legal expenses: $1,586,152.
Andy Kunasek, county supervisor: $123,110 settlement. County legal expenses: $1,150.
As of June 2014, costs to Maricopa County taxpayers related to Arpaio's and Thomas's failed corruption investigations exceeded $45 million, not including staff time.

The majority of judges that over saw these lawsuits and settled these claims were republican. .

BestWestern wrote:

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. I expect the GOP to be the party of law and order.

Well, you just saw how much the GOP lives up to what u expected!

If they were any truth to that at ALL.

Mitch the Bitch McConnell and his GOPers would have let Sen. Warren finish reading the letter written by Coretta Scott King advocating the
refusal of Jeff Sessions to a Federal Judgeship over 40 years ago when the GOP peeps where way more 'human' (as in for the sake of Humanity).
than he GOP peeps today. Mrs. Kings words were powerful enough back then, for the Senate to do a thumb down on Sessions appointment.

Proving, the ignorant are impervious to learning from lessons past.

Arpaio, as scummy and douchee as he is...is just the canary in the cage down in the bowels of a coal-mining pit.

Trump looks GOOD in the eyes of people scared to death of every person brown ..or darker.

But Drumps play was this...

ALL you guys who are singing or tuning up to sing and audition for FBI Mueller...

"Look, I hand out pardons like pancakes! Don't sing...I'll hook you up like I did with Uncle Joe! You see? Just don't rat me out!!!"

But perhaps they (or their attorneys) already know what was stated in this post...

Dutchy wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

The pardon of Apario sends a terrible message to law enforcement and panders to the worst in human nature.

Yes under normal, but anyone with half a brain cell left can see that there is a moral vacuum around 1700 Pennsylvania avenue or Mar-a-Lago.

They were saying on MSNBC that when you are pardoned or given immunity in a court case then you lose the right to plead the 5th and if you refuse to testify you are charged with contempt of court or obstruction of justice. They were saying that this sets a precedent in the Russia investigations that Trump can simply Pardon again if anyone on his staff or in his family does in fact get a pardon and refuses to testify.

And if that's the case, they are still gonna take a deal with Mueller. It's a much much palatable 'sh*t sandwich than anything coming from Drump, they've all seen how much
Drump values loyalty.

And the story on http://www.rawstory.com has any truth to it...

'That Drump squeezed Sessions to Drop the Arpaio case (initiated by Prez O's peeps)...

..then that is the second BLATANT offense (Gen. Michael 'Lock Her Up, Lock Her Up' Flynn being the first) of Obstruction of Justice.

Let's see what the Congress does with this steaming pile...

BN747

Pyrex wrote:

Funny how we did not hear people outraged when Obama pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists (who never expressed guilt...) or traitors, but are outraged that an 85-year old guy won't be sent to prison for 6 months because of a witch-hunt of a politicized DOJ that refused him a jury trial in contravention with the U.S. constitution...

Typical right-wingery: "ah, but but but but...Obama/Hillary/Clintons**" (delete as applicable)

Another piece by a conservative writer.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion ... 606012001/

Many conservatives outside of Arizona celebrated his headline-grabbing antics, but they don’t know the real story. I’m a conservative Maricopa County resident who has lived under Arpaio throughout his decades-long reign. Arpaio was never a conservative; he just played one on TV.

I saw his love of racial profiling firsthand, especially on my daily commutes through the tiny Hispanic community of Guadalupe, Ariz. When conducting these “sweeps,” helicopters buzzed houses, an 18-wheeler marked “Mobile Command Center” was planted in the center of town, and countless sheriff’s deputies stood on the roadsides, peering into the cars rolling by. Being Caucasian, I was always waved through. The drivers ahead and behind me weren’t so lucky.

Much more on the link..

Probably the most balanced and on-point assessment of the Arpaio pardon:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/ ... 603064001/

Interesting.

The pardon is unusual in several respects, according to an Associated Press analysis:

Mr Arpaio did not submit an application through the Office of the Pardon Attorney

His pardoning took place before he was sentenced (sentencing had been set for 5 October)

He was pardoned for a misdemeanour offence, which carries a penalty of less than a year in jail, when generally those seeking a presidential pardon have been convicted of felonies

910A wrote:

Petty Offenses

Petty offenses don't generally a) get Federal prosecutors involved and b) get liberal's panties in a twist. This was a deliberate move to try do deprive him of his 6th amendment right to a trial by jury.

Mir wrote:

Trump's DOJ prosecuted him.

Oh, you mean the same "Trump" DOJ who is unwilling to go after Lois Lerner and the other sleazeballs committing obstruction of justice at the IRS, or going after leakers? The same DOJ staffed by people who live in a city where over 90% of people voted for Hillary? Ywah, swamp-critters got each other's backs, always have, always will.

Pyrex wrote:

The same DOJ staffed by people who live in a city where over 90% of people voted for Hillary? Ywah, swamp-critters got each other's backs, always have, always will.

I will be happy to review your evidence for this claim. I doubt that you can show that even a majority of the "DOJ people" live in D.C.

While I have no hard facts by which to show otherwise, my gut tells me that the great majority of DOJ attorneys live in either Northern Virginia or Montgomery County, Maryland. The voting in those jurisdictions was very different from the results in D.C.

Pyrex wrote:

Ywah, swamp-critters got each other's backs, always have, always will.

Yup, Trump sure had the back of one of his prominent supporters. Swampy indeed. Wasn't he supposed to do something about that? I guess that's just one more broken promise. But you didn't really believe he'd keep it, did you?

Pyrex wrote:

Funny how we did not hear people outraged when Obama pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists (who never expressed guilt...) or traitors, but are outraged that an 85-year old guy won't be sent to prison for 6 months because of a witch-hunt of a politicized DOJ that refused him a jury trial in contravention with the U.S. constitution...

Two things here:
1. On a personal note, I never agreed with the release of Oscar Lopez. He had been given a chance to walk free when Clinton offered it and he refused. He should have been left to rot in jail. Back home people marched every year to demand his release...why? I haven't the slightest idea.
2. Oscar Lopez at least served a sentence (not the full sentence but justice was served). Arpaio gets to walk free and not only that, but who's to suggest he'll change his ways? And speaking about not expressing guilt, did Arpaio express it himself?

It's clear what the message here is: be racist. Profile any non-White person. Be as mean as you want with Blacks and Latinos. You'll be pardoned for being a true patriot.

Joe is thinking of running for the Senate seat next year - probably in order to get "contributions" heading his way. That poses multiple problems as he is going to be under very different campaign laws and will not be able to pocket the cash like before. n If he screws that up I guess Trump can pardon him yet again.

Conviction stands..Judge Bolton denies Arpaio's motion to erase conviction.

U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton on Thursday denied former Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's request to vacate his criminal contempt conviction after he was pardoned by President Donald Trump.

In her ruling, Bolton said while Trump's pardon "undoubtedly spared Defendant from any punishment that might otherwise have been imposed. It did not, however, 'revise the historical facts' of this case."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 782613001/

DIRECTFLT wrote:

List of 151 people pardoned by Bill Clinton:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ll_Clinton

How many of them did proof that they hate the US constitution?

StarAC17 wrote:

They were saying on MSNBC that when you are pardoned or given immunity in a court case then you lose the right to plead the 5th and if you refuse to testify you are charged with contempt of court or obstruction of justice. They were saying that this sets a precedent in the Russia investigations that Trump can simply Pardon again if anyone on his staff or in his family does in fact get a pardon and refuses to testify. .

Nothing would keep the court from putting that person on the stand again, asking again, holding them in contempt again. How many times do you think Trump can give a pardon to the same person, for the same reason, to keep them from testifying about his and/or his campaigns ties and collaboration for a foreign power, before even the majority of Fox news hosts start calling it obstruction of justice.

However, it would appear that the investigation yields enough for prosecution by the states, and Trump doesn´t have pardon power for that.

best regards
Thomas