ual763
Topic Author
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Is climate change causing flight delays?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:53 am

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-climate- ... 14610.html

Whether you believe in global warming or not, this guy's stunning journalism is sure to give you quite the laugh...
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Non-descriptive title
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:13 pm

I'm preemptively moving this topic to Non Av because of the climate change debate that is bound to take place, which isn't a discussion that belongs in Civ Av. This way, people can debate away with less moderation.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:38 pm

An interesting question and one that may be difficult to answer given the available data.

At some airports it will be relatively easy to compare cancellations and late departures over a series of years (Phoenix) while at other airports that have serious infrastructure problems, just a few drops of rain (or even the threat of rain) can disrupt operations.

How do you score an event like what happened recently at Atlanta where some serious rain led to a serious IT failure? Blame it all on weather or tease apart the different elements involved in the SNAFU?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:14 pm

Considering at one point, half the US was covered by a sheet of ice, and at another point, half the US was covered by an ocean, I'd say we should be pretty thankful that we all have been blessed to have existed "mid-swing" on Earth's climate pendulum.

This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical, almost to the point of mimicking the great debate between creation and evolution...Except in this case, those pushing what they label to be the "science" side of the argument actually fall more on the "religion" side by completely discounting the fact that Earth has existed for much longer than just a few thousand years.

So a CRJ's performance charts didn't account for the hottest day of the year in Phoenix and therefore Hell hath come over us, soon to be followed by a Great Flood?

Seriously, it's not just the God-figureheaded religions that need to look back a couple eons. It's happened before without us...and it'll happen again, with or without us.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
jetero
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:26 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical, almost to the point of mimicking the great debate between creation and evolution...Except in this case, those pushing what they label to be the "science" side of the argument actually fall more on the "religion" side by completely discounting the fact that Earth has existed for much longer than just a few thousand years.


What exactly are you referring to?
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:37 am

jetero wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical, almost to the point of mimicking the great debate between creation and evolution...Except in this case, those pushing what they label to be the "science" side of the argument actually fall more on the "religion" side by completely discounting the fact that Earth has existed for much longer than just a few thousand years.


What exactly are you referring to?


Which part?
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
jetero
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:05 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
jetero wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical, almost to the point of mimicking the great debate between creation and evolution...Except in this case, those pushing what they label to be the "science" side of the argument actually fall more on the "religion" side by completely discounting the fact that Earth has existed for much longer than just a few thousand years.


What exactly are you referring to?


Which part?


Exactly
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:56 am

ual763 wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-climate-change-causing-flight-073814610.html

Whether you believe in global warming or not, this guy's stunning journalism is sure to give you quite the laugh...


Image

Oh, I DO Believe in Global Warming . . .

However, I am very doubtful about Man-Made Global Warming.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
jetero
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:48 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
ual763 wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-climate-change-causing-flight-073814610.html

Whether you believe in global warming or not, this guy's stunning journalism is sure to give you quite the laugh...


Image

Oh, I DO Believe in Global Warming . . .

However, I am very doubtful about Man-Made Global Warming.


What fun you must be having with yourself! We're now part of the only generation that has celebrated ignorance while celebrating "feelings." The famous brothers in your avatar would just love to be associated with you.
 
ual763
Topic Author
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:57 am

I just found this article hilarious in that, the author made it seem as if in the next few years when the temperatures go up an average of .2 degrees, all of a sudden the delays will be numerous and directly caused by global warming.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 5822
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:26 pm

ual763 wrote:
average of .2 degrees

The keyword there is average.

If you know basic math, you'll know that average is the sum of everything divided by its total count.

For example:
(3+4+5)/3=4
(4+4+5)/3=4.33

Consider the lower number to be your low temperature, the mid number to be your mean daily temperature, and the high one to be your high temperature. I just showed you an average increase of 1/3 of a degree by raising your low to match the daily mean (we hear a lot of record highs...when was the last time you heard of a record low NOT caused by an ice storm?)

That 1/3 of a degree, insignificant as it seems, does make a difference in the long term.

Even your body is sensitive to small temperature changes. Your body's ideal temperature is 98.6F (37C). Try telling a doctor that you go on with life at 99F or 100F. He'll tell you to take fever medicines or have you checked out for some illness. It's a small change of temperature, yet while your body can adapt in the short term to accommodate that threshold (it's a defense mechanism), it can't sustain it over the long run.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8985
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:03 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Even your body is sensitive to small temperature changes. Your body's ideal temperature is 98.6F (37C). Try telling a doctor that you go on with life at 99F or 100F. He'll tell you to take fever medicines or have you checked out for some illness. It's a small change of temperature, yet while your body can adapt in the short term to accommodate that threshold (it's a defense mechanism), it can't sustain it over the long run.


Are you actually comparing climate change to a human fever? Because if so, that is a totally irrelevant comparison.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5830
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:15 pm

ual763 wrote:
I just found this article hilarious in that, the author made it seem as if in the next few years when the temperatures go up an average of .2 degrees, all of a sudden the delays will be numerous and directly caused by global warming.


Airplanes depend on Lift to get in the air along with Thrust. Lift is just not as easy when the air is less dense.

This happens due to a very key formula of chemistry and physics. PV=nRT .

Boeing and Airbus specifically sell a heat and altitude package to customers, but if heat is going up, some of those airports that were never affected, will get affected. Average delays will go up with it due to the cost of delays at one airport.

If you fly regularly, then you know that one airports misery usually has affects further down the line. Crews timeout, planes don't arrive on time, missed connections........

The article is not far fetched at all when considering average temperatures go up .2 degrees. Over 365 days, that means there could be quite a few days much more than 10 degrees outside of the Norm. With some more than 20 or 30 outside of it.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
ual763
Topic Author
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I just found this article hilarious in that, the author made it seem as if in the next few years when the temperatures go up an average of .2 degrees, all of a sudden the delays will be numerous and directly caused by global warming.


Airplanes depend on Lift to get in the air along with Thrust. Lift is just not as easy when the air is less dense.

This happens due to a very key formula of chemistry and physics. PV=nRT .

Boeing and Airbus specifically sell a heat and altitude package to customers, but if heat is going up, some of those airports that were never affected, will get affected. Average delays will go up with it due to the cost of delays at one airport.

If you fly regularly, then you know that one airports misery usually has affects further down the line. Crews timeout, planes don't arrive on time, missed connections........

The article is not far fetched at all when considering average temperatures go up .2 degrees. Over 365 days, that means there could be quite a few days much more than 10 degrees outside of the Norm. With some more than 20 or 30 outside of it.


Thank you for enlightening me on lift and how temperature affects it. Didn't know that after flying professionally for 30 years..... 20 or 30 outside of the norm, yeah that must be because of that .2 degree difference....
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6641
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:18 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical,


Hockey still is however a fairly good image for what is going on.

Image

By xkcd.com using accurate data.

almost to the point of mimicking the great debate between creation and evolution...


There never really was a discussion. Evolution already was a fact over 100 years ago.

Except in this case, those pushing what they label to be the "science" side of the argument actually fall more on the "religion" side by completely discounting the fact that Earth has existed for much longer than just a few thousand years.


Nope. Climate change deniers have worked hard to get people to have that impression, but in fact science is perfectly aware of the fact. It is just that "regular climate change speeded up by 1000-fold" isn't a catchy phrase.

Seriously, it's not just the God-figureheaded religions that need to look back a couple eons. It's happened before without us...and it'll happen again, with or without us.


Only with us it is happening drastically faster than ever before without an extinction level event. Industrialisation may one day be seen an an ELE.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5830
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:21 pm

ual763 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I just found this article hilarious in that, the author made it seem as if in the next few years when the temperatures go up an average of .2 degrees, all of a sudden the delays will be numerous and directly caused by global warming.


Airplanes depend on Lift to get in the air along with Thrust. Lift is just not as easy when the air is less dense.

This happens due to a very key formula of chemistry and physics. PV=nRT .

Boeing and Airbus specifically sell a heat and altitude package to customers, but if heat is going up, some of those airports that were never affected, will get affected. Average delays will go up with it due to the cost of delays at one airport.

If you fly regularly, then you know that one airports misery usually has affects further down the line. Crews timeout, planes don't arrive on time, missed connections........

The article is not far fetched at all when considering average temperatures go up .2 degrees. Over 365 days, that means there could be quite a few days much more than 10 degrees outside of the Norm. With some more than 20 or 30 outside of it.


Thank you for enlightening me on lift and how temperature affects it. Didn't know that after flying professionally for 30 years..... 20 or 30 outside of the norm, yeah that must be because of that .2 degree difference....



I guess you have never seen a winter day 30 degrees above or below normal? Or a summer day 10 -20 degrees above normal? A few more of these days is what .2 degree average change in temperature can be from The article you posted puts forth some solid information related to temperature changes on atmospheric conditions, and how it has the potential to change the way airports and airplanes are currently bought,sold and designed.

As a UALfan/ employee, perhaps you put some thought into why DIA has a 16000 foot runway?

If areas in the margin around the world that use planes that are unable to fly above 118 degrees, there will be a lot more delays as temperatures spike. These delays will cause more issues system wide. Perhaps these planes will be replaced in the long run , and runways will be lengthed, but at the end of the day, it all causes delay in the shorttem, and increased costs for all involved , which is the main point of that article you posted put forward.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical,


Hockey still is however a fairly good image for what is going on.

Image

By xkcd.com using accurate data.

Thank you for proving my point: Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years, your argument may as well be congruent to the (other) religions whose timelines also extend no further back than the millennia-range.

Yet to lay that down as somehow being scientific to the point of being dogmatic is incredibly laughable when it, just as (other) religions, conveniently (or purposefully) ignore the fact that the Earth existed for far longer, and on much-larger orders of magnitude in time than they hope everyone else would even begin to consider to acknowledge.

That's not science...that's fraud at its worst.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical, almost to the point of mimicking the great debate between creation and evolution...


There never really was a discussion. Evolution already was a fact over 100 years ago.

KFLLCFII wrote:
Except in this case, those pushing what they label to be the "science" side of the argument actually fall more on the "religion" side by completely discounting the fact that Earth has existed for much longer than just a few thousand years.


Nope. Climate change deniers have worked hard to get people to have that impression, but in fact science is perfectly aware of the fact. It is just that "regular climate change speeded up by 1000-fold" isn't a catchy phrase.

KFLLCFII wrote:
Seriously, it's not just the God-figureheaded religions that need to look back a couple eons. It's happened before without us...and it'll happen again, with or without us.


Only with us it is happening drastically faster than ever before without an extinction level event. Industrialisation may one day be seen an an ELE.


Thanks for posting that graphic, Tommy, and for the cogent responses.

It would have been nice if Darwin's name had been inserted just below "Industrial Revolution".

After many years of debating about religions and evolutionary science, I don't hold much hope for getting deniers of climate change to scroll carefully and thoughtfully through that graphic.

Another feature that might have been added at the very bottom of the graphic would be another comparison of New York and Boston after another 50, 100 and 200 years of rising sea level along the best-case, optimistic and current path scenarios. In all likelihood no one will be living in either city 100 years from now.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:30 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
After many years of debating about religions and evolutionary science, I don't hold much hope for getting deniers of climate change to scroll carefully and thoughtfully through that graphic.


My advice, don't debate religion and don't debate facts. Religion = something which you believe in and facts = facts. The same for climate change, what do you hope to accomplish with debating climate change, if people aren't convinced with all the available data how are you to convince them?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:36 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
This whole underlying notion that the Earth's climate was somehow steady-state and is now beginning to look like a hockey stick is becoming comical,


Hockey still is however a fairly good image for what is going on.

Image

By xkcd.com using accurate data.

Thank you for proving my point: Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years, your argument may as well be congruent to the (other) religions whose timelines also extend no further back than the millennia-range.

Yet to lay that down as somehow being scientific to the point of being dogmatic is incredibly laughable when it, just as (other) religions, conveniently (or purposefully) ignore the fact that the Earth existed for far longer, and on much-larger orders of magnitude in time than they hope everyone else would even begin to consider to acknowledge.

That's not science...that's fraud at its worst.


How come you think you are right, while 97% of all scientist (data driven) think climate change is human induced and further more can we take the risk that you might be wrong?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
After many years of debating about religions and evolutionary science, I don't hold much hope for getting deniers of climate change to scroll carefully and thoughtfully through that graphic.


My advice, don't debate religion and don't debate facts. Religion = something which you believe in and facts = facts. The same for climate change, what do you hope to accomplish with debating climate change, if people aren't convinced with all the available data how are you to convince them?


It is interesting that you post this and then proceed with another post in which you ignore your own advice. Is there a term for that?

To ignore the science and climate deniers is to surrender the teaching of rational science in textbooks, Internet venues, and in national and world politics. Withdraw from the debate and you have lost the debate.

Your response suggests that people have actually been exposed to the scientific data, that they understand it, and that they reject it. I do not think that is the case. Even many of the people who support efforts to combat climate change or global warming do so not because they understand and accept the science, but because they trust the judgment of scientists (the 97%).
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6641
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:31 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years,


Please, do enlighten us then: in which time(s) in earth history did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today, without catastrophic effects on life at that time.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Hockey still is however a fairly good image for what is going on.

Image

By xkcd.com using accurate data.

Thank you for proving my point: Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years, your argument may as well be congruent to the (other) religions whose timelines also extend no further back than the millennia-range.

Yet to lay that down as somehow being scientific to the point of being dogmatic is incredibly laughable when it, just as (other) religions, conveniently (or purposefully) ignore the fact that the Earth existed for far longer, and on much-larger orders of magnitude in time than they hope everyone else would even begin to consider to acknowledge.

That's not science...that's fraud at its worst.


How come you think you are right, while 97% of all scientist (data driven) think climate change is human induced

Here's a better question: How come 97% of all scientists (data driven) can't (or won't) cure their geo-chronological myopia?

Heck, I'll even humor that latter question with a two-part answer, in this particular order:

1) Follow the power

2) Follow the money

Oh, were those the "elephants in the room" we weren't supposed to talk about?
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:44 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Thank you for proving my point: Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years, your argument may as well be congruent to the (other) religions whose timelines also extend no further back than the millennia-range.

Yet to lay that down as somehow being scientific to the point of being dogmatic is incredibly laughable when it, just as (other) religions, conveniently (or purposefully) ignore the fact that the Earth existed for far longer, and on much-larger orders of magnitude in time than they hope everyone else would even begin to consider to acknowledge.

That's not science...that's fraud at its worst.


How come you think you are right, while 97% of all scientist (data driven) think climate change is human induced

Here's a better question: How come 97% of all scientists (data driven) can't (or won't) cure their geo-chronological myopia?

Heck, I'll even humor that latter question with a two-part answer, in this particular order:

1) Follow the power

2) Follow the money

Oh, were those the "elephants in the room" we weren't supposed to talk about?


Oh yes, the slim power of the fossil industry whom would like their sole source of income pulverized, with their small incomes. That is conspiracy theory territory.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:47 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Withdraw from the debate and you have lost the debate.


Again you are missing the point. No point in debating facts, there should be no debate. I am just asking some questions, totally different.

But please just ignore my advice, not the first time.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:51 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years,


Please, do enlighten us then: in which time(s) in earth history did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today, without catastrophic effects on life at that time.

Given the fact that the history of the world (your timeline) ceases to acknowledge anything beyond 20,000 BC, we'll never know the answer to that question.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:57 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years,


Please, do enlighten us then: in which time(s) in earth history did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today, without catastrophic effects on life at that time.

Given the fact that the history of the world (your timeline) ceases to acknowledge anything beyond 20,000 BC, we'll never know the answer to that question.


Actually million years: https://www.livescience.com/50795-antar ... hange.html
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

How come you think you are right, while 97% of all scientist (data driven) think climate change is human induced

Here's a better question: How come 97% of all scientists (data driven) can't (or won't) cure their geo-chronological myopia?

Heck, I'll even humor that latter question with a two-part answer, in this particular order:

1) Follow the power

2) Follow the money

Oh, were those the "elephants in the room" we weren't supposed to talk about?


Oh yes, the slim power of the fossil industry whom would like their sole source of income pulverized, with their small incomes. That is conspiracy theory territory.


The fossil industry? Wrong power, wrong money.

If that's what you believed I was referring to, then it makes sense that some people would also believe that the world began at 20,000 BC.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:04 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Here's a better question: How come 97% of all scientists (data driven) can't (or won't) cure their geo-chronological myopia?

Heck, I'll even humor that latter question with a two-part answer, in this particular order:

1) Follow the power

2) Follow the money

Oh, were those the "elephants in the room" we weren't supposed to talk about?


Oh yes, the slim power of the fossil industry whom would like their sole source of income pulverized, with their small incomes. That is conspiracy theory territory.


The fossil industry? Wrong power, wrong money.

If that's what you believed I was referring to, then it makes sense that some people would also believe that the world began at 20,000 BC.


Please do enlighten us, which power is behind this?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Please, do enlighten us then: in which time(s) in earth history did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today, without catastrophic effects on life at that time.

Given the fact that the history of the world (your timeline) ceases to acknowledge anything beyond 20,000 BC, we'll never know the answer to that question.


Actually million years: https://www.livescience.com/50795-antar ... hange.html

Wow, congratulations to Dutchy! ONE million whole years of geo-history! Do I hear TEN million? TWENTY million? You can do it!

Dutchy wrote:
Please do enlighten us, which power is behind this?


Oh, c'mon, what other entities enjoy fear-based power trips and money grabs?

Heck, I'm sure even the 97% of scientists (*myopic* data driven) enjoy their windfall checks and job security (oops, I mean grants) for keeping that ball rolling.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3614
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:55 pm

I don't get why it's so difficult for many people to believe that humans do play at least some part in climate change. I mean, if you release huge amounts of gasses into the atmosphere effectively changing its composition and cut down enormous areas of forests is it such a surprise that it affects the climate too?

To me it's just common sense that everything we do ultimately affects the environment in a way or another.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:55 am

pvjin wrote:
I don't get why it's so difficult for many people to believe that humans do play at least some part in climate change. I mean, if you release huge amounts of gasses into the atmosphere effectively changing its composition and cut down enormous areas of forests is it such a surprise that it affects the climate too?

To me it's just common sense that everything we do ultimately affects the environment in a way or another.


When all of the last days volcanoes start erupting, then all of the man-efforts at controlling emissions won't amount to a hill of beans. So don't be a worrier, okay. :cheerful:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:21 am

I don't know if KFLLCFII is some kind of troll or whether he actually believes the nonsense he is spouting. Suggesting that we compare scientific knowledge to that of religious beliefs is ludicrous. There is factual evidence extending back many millions of years that inform us as to the range and extent of physical changes to this planet.

Yes, the timeline chart could be extended backward for many millions years and we could fill it with factual events, determined by scientific evidence, long before human kind came upon the scene. We could, for instance indicate approximately where our lineage diverged from that of the other great apes. But so what?

There was an interesting article in today's Washington Post telling about the speeding up of scientific projections as to when Tangier Island, in Chesapeake Bay, will have to be abandoned to rising seas. Probably 20 years or so. Hundreds of communities elsewhere will also be affected.

Wash. Post story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/na ... 64f4cb2836
CNN Report: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/09/us/weathe ... index.html

Last month President Trump phoned the Mayor of Tangier Island and told him not to worry about rising sea levels. He said "Your island has been there for hundreds of years, and I believe your island will be there for hundreds more".

Tangier Island has lost a large majority of its land area since 1850 and continues to lose it at an accelerating pace -- about 15 feet of shoreline per year. The island suffers from a double whammy: it and the entire Chesapeake Region is slowly "slumping", a response to the retreat of glaciers, far to the north, 12,000 years ago.

I wonder whether anyone has told the President that we are going to have to spend billions to shore up facilities at Hampton Roads-Norfolk, not many miles from Tangier Island. There are not many places where we can base the Atlantic Fleet.

So, KFLLCFII, it appears you are in good company with the ignoramus in the White House.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:28 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
pvjin wrote:
I don't get why it's so difficult for many people to believe that humans do play at least some part in climate change. I mean, if you release huge amounts of gasses into the atmosphere effectively changing its composition and cut down enormous areas of forests is it such a surprise that it affects the climate too?

To me it's just common sense that everything we do ultimately affects the environment in a way or another.


When all of the last days volcanoes start erupting, then all of the man-efforts at controlling emissions won't amount to a hill of beans. So don't be a worrier, okay. :cheerful:

Wait, wait...

I don't get why it's so difficult for many people to believe that humans do play at least some part in global volcanic eruptions. I mean, if you drill huge amounts of deep wells into the ground effectively changing its composition and cutting down on enormous amounts of tectonic stability is it such a surprise that it affects the volcanoes too?

To me it's just common sense that everything we do ultimately affects the volcanoes in a way or another.

:D
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:37 am

BobPatterson wrote:
I don't know if KFLLCFII is some kind of troll or whether he actually believes the nonsense he is spouting. Suggesting that we compare scientific knowledge to that of religious beliefs is ludicrous. There is factual evidence extending back many millions of years that inform us as to the range and extent of physical changes to this planet.

Yes, the timeline chart could be extended backward for many millions years and we could fill it with factual events, determined by scientific evidence, long before human kind came upon the scene.


And therein lies the heart of the issue...As those millions of years of factual climactic events determined by scientific evidence exist, then in a discussion on the climate and how it changes, why would that evidence be any less relevant? If even only the past one million years was analyzed, how is that logical in establishing a "benchmark" of the Earth's climate when it only represents a small chronological percentage of the evidence we can and have obtained? For some reason, while scientists are generally in the business of gathering the largest determinable sample size for an experiment, to do so (or to be asked to do so) when it comes to the field of climate change is "nonsense". Why is that?

BobPatterson wrote:
Tangier Island has lost a large majority of its land area since 1850 and continues to lose it at an accelerating pace -- about 15 feet of shoreline per year. The island suffers from a double whammy: it and the entire Chesapeake Region is slowly "slumping", a response to the retreat of glaciers, far to the north, 12,000 years ago.


Well damn us humans for setting up camp in a place still suffering from geological events which occurred 11,850 years before we started polluting our atmosphere with greenhouse gases! Wait...Never let a crisis go to waste! Raise the taxes in the name of "Climate Change" and guilt people into being tolerant about the money grab! And oh yeah, the previous times in which half the country was covered by an ocean? Don't mind that because this time it's MAN-MADE! Those fossilized nautilus shells and prehistoric fish bones found in the middle of Kansas? Irrelevant! See, the Earth's climate had finally stabilized after all those pendulum swings over millions of years, and then us filthy humans came along and threw it back over the edge again! So pay up and you'll like it...But you better not call us out on it, or we'll sick the Thought Police on you and call you a DENIER! (When you haven't even denied that the climate was changing in the first place, but your words sound like heresy, so we'll give you a heretic label anyway.)

Oh wait, to mention anything about "heresy" is to imply religion is involved. Well, if the shoe fits.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6641
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:52 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
how is that logical in establishing a "benchmark" of the Earth's climate when it only represents a small chronological percentage of the evidence we can and have obtained? .


You are simply misunderstanding: The Benchmark isn´t the last xk years, the Benchmark is the climate where we and the other flora and fauna can exist, and the worry isn´t change, but the speed of the change.

KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Unless the scale of your chart goes back into the previous millions of years rather than the previous thousands of years,


Please, do enlighten us then: in which time(s) in earth history did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today, without catastrophic effects on life at that time.

Given the fact that the history of the world (your timeline) ceases to acknowledge anything beyond 20,000 BC, we'll never know the answer to that question.
.

Let me rephrase since you are trying to be cute: At which time during the last 4.5 Billion years or so did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today without catastrophic consequences for life existing at that time? It just seems you are not having any data supporting your claim and just making fiat arguments with no basis in reality.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20592
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:54 am

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE OR ARE NOT CURRENTLY PURSUING A DEGREE IN CLIMATOLOGY OR METEOROLOGY, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO AN OPINION OF YOUR OWN ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO THOSE WHO DO HAVE THOSE DEGREES.

Of course, antivaxxers love to think they know more than I do. Welcome to the Dunning-Kruger Club, where the first rule of the club is that you don't know you're in the Dunning-Kruger Club.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:10 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
I don't know if KFLLCFII is some kind of troll or whether he actually believes the nonsense he is spouting. Suggesting that we compare scientific knowledge to that of religious beliefs is ludicrous. There is factual evidence extending back many millions of years that inform us as to the range and extent of physical changes to this planet.

Yes, the timeline chart could be extended backward for many millions years and we could fill it with factual events, determined by scientific evidence, long before human kind came upon the scene.

And therein lies the heart of the issue...As those millions of years of factual climactic events determined by scientific evidence exist, then in a discussion on the climate and how it changes, why would that evidence be any less relevant? If even only the past one million years was analyzed, how is that logical in establishing a "benchmark" of the Earth's climate when it only represents a small chronological percentage of the evidence we can and have obtained? For some reason, while scientists are generally in the business of gathering the largest determinable sample size for an experiment, to do so (or to be asked to do so) when it comes to the field of climate change is "nonsense". Why is that?

It isn't nonsense. Scientists continue to collect core samples from ice, ocean and lake bottoms, and establish what past conditions were like by other means. But they cannot possibly tell us anything about anthropogenic influences on the climate. This time is different, and we need only a few hundred years of data to show how humans have managed to change, and increasingly continue to change, the biosphere.

KFLLCFII wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Tangier Island has lost a large majority of its land area since 1850 and continues to lose it at an accelerating pace -- about 15 feet of shoreline per year. The island suffers from a double whammy: it and the entire Chesapeake Region is slowly "slumping", a response to the retreat of glaciers, far to the north, 12,000 years ago.

Well damn us humans for setting up camp in a place still suffering from geological events which occurred 11,850 years before we started polluting our atmosphere with greenhouse gases! Wait...Never let a crisis go to waste! Raise the taxes in the name of "Climate Change" and guilt people into being tolerant about the money grab! And oh yeah, the previous times in which half the country was covered by an ocean? Don't mind that because this time it's MAN-MADE! Those fossilized nautilus shells and prehistoric fish bones found in the middle of Kansas? Irrelevant! See, the Earth's climate had finally stabilized after all those pendulum swings over millions of years, and then us filthy humans came along and threw it back over the edge again! So pay up and you'll like it...But you better not call us out on it, or we'll sick the Thought Police on you and call you a DENIER! (When you haven't even denied that the climate was changing in the first place, but your words sound like heresy, so we'll give you a heretic label anyway.)

Oh wait, to mention anything about "heresy" is to imply religion is involved. Well, if the shoe fits.

Would you have us Lie? You ARE a denier. I have no idea why you lie to yourself. Perhaps you aren't, but are simply trolling.

The world is constantly changing. When we speak of stasis we do not mean nothing is going on. Lots of things go on during inter-glacial periods. That the earth is still rebounding from the last major glaciation should be no surprise.

So at Tangier Island we have submergence occurring at the same time as we have sea level rise due to global warming. It took scientists to tease out what was going on and why, in some places, sea level rise has the appearance of proceeding faster than in other places.

They have also been able to tease out the portion of sea level rising attributable to melting of ice fields, and the portion due to warming and expansion of the oceans.

That we can depend on the ability of scientists to discover these facts is a cause for rejoicing, and not a cause for the denial of the truth at all costs.

The truth may be discomforting, but we ignore it at our peril.

Have a nice day.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:33 am

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
how is that logical in establishing a "benchmark" of the Earth's climate when it only represents a small chronological percentage of the evidence we can and have obtained? .


You are simply misunderstanding: The Benchmark isn´t the last xk years, the Benchmark is the climate where we and the other flora and fauna can exist, and the worry isn´t change, but the speed of the change.

If you're establishing a benchmark to "fit" a certain test, then you are purposefully limiting your pool of available scientific data to force the results to fit the test...how is that scientific and not putting the cart before the horse?

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Please, do enlighten us then: in which time(s) in earth history did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today, without catastrophic effects on life at that time.

Given the fact that the history of the world (your timeline) ceases to acknowledge anything beyond 20,000 BC, we'll never know the answer to that question.
.

Let me rephrase since you are trying to be cute: At which time during the last 4.5 Billion years or so did the climate change as fast or faster than it does today without catastrophic consequences for life existing at that time?

Considering how thin even a million years is represented in a geologic boundary layer to be able to determine if such an event had previously taken place, the fact that 97% of today's scientists (data-driven) are in such unison about being sure that the past 150 years is unprecedented in all of history makes (as stated previously) 1) follow the power, and 2) follow the money, so ridiculously obvious.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6641
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:52 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Considering how thin even a million years is represented in a geologic boundary layer to be able to determine


So you have zero evidence for what you claim, correct?

1) follow the power, and 2) follow the money


because there is power and money in being a climate scientist. Well, now we know you don´t know a single scientist.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:36 am

Regardless of how much or little humans affect climate change, reducing pollution and being less environmental friendly can never bee a bad thing.
You just have to look at cities that have a problem with smog to realize that pollution have to decrease if we want to continue to have a breathable air,
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:10 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Considering how thin even a million years is represented in a geological boundary layer to be able to determine


So you have zero evidence for what you claim, correct?


Just what exactly is it that you think I'm "claiming"?

tommy1808 wrote:
1) follow the power, and 2) follow the money


because there is power and money in being a climate scientist. Well, now we know you don´t know a single scientist.

Between Dutchy believing my above quote was referring to the fossil industry and you believing it's only leveled toward scientists, it's no wonder that the countless number of governmental bodies who reap taxes ("Follow the money", part "A") in the name of "Climate Change" (effected by the myopic chronological scale of the datasets analyzed and reported by 97% of scientists (data driven) who seek job security and mission-funding grants ("Follow the money", part "B")) are allowed to get away with it when you puppets fall over backwards to allow your strings to be pulled ("Follow the power").

In the end, it's up to you to keep that machine turning! Hope you don't let them down!
KFLLCFII
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6641
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:16 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Considering how thin even a million years is represented in a geological boundary layer to be able to determine


So you have zero evidence for what you claim, correct?


Just what exactly is it that you think I'm "claiming"?


you are claiming that the climate change we see today is normal and happened before.

if if got that wrong, please do state specifically what your claim is and provide evidence for that.

it's no wonder that the countless number of governmental bodies who reap taxesI


Please show your evidence that "governmental bodies" change the outcome of scientific research, and if that is not your claim, state your precise claim and provide the evidence supporting it.

As per forum rules you are after all required to back your statement up with evidence, i shouldn´t even have to ask....

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:15 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

So you have zero evidence for what you claim, correct?


Just what exactly is it that you think I'm "claiming"?


you are claiming that the climate change we see today is normal and happened before.

if if got that wrong, please do state specifically what your claim is and provide evidence for that.


You got that wrong.

My claim is (and has been from my very first post above) that climate change has happened before.

My evidence is (and has been stated before) the discovery of fossilized sea creatures in the middle of the country.

Lest the sky fall once more!

tommy1808 wrote:
it's no wonder that the countless number of governmental bodies who reap taxes


Please show your evidence that "governmental bodies" change the outcome of scientific research


You got that wrong...again.

My claim is (and was) that a myopic chronological scale is used to effect the desired outcome...That while actual, derived data is being used toward the desired outcome, only a minuscule portion of the dataset is being applied in order to "fit" the desired outcome.

tommy1808 wrote:
and if that is not your claim, state your precise claim and provide the evidence supporting it.


My evidence is in your own previous post: A timeline (using actual, derived data) which attempted to "fit" the desired outcome ("hockey stick" theory) by limiting the applied climate data to the last 22,000 years (which is only a minuscule portion of the available climate dataset):

tommy1808 wrote:
Image

By xkcd.com using accurate data.


tommy1808 wrote:
As per forum rules you are after all required to back your statement up with evidence, i shouldn´t even have to ask....


The above evidence was already there for the taking. But thank you for confirming that it went over your head...I'll take it as a compliment that I was somehow able to leapfrog even above your brilliant mind. ;)
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6641
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:29 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
My claim is (and has been from my very first post above) that climate change has happened before.


so, your claim is simply irrelevant to this discussion? Because that climate change happend before is not denied by anyone and certainly not in this threat.

My claim is (and was) that a myopic chronological scale is used to effect the desired outcome...That while actual, derived data is being used toward the desired outcome, only a minuscule portion of the dataset is being applied in order to "fit" the desired outcome.


And where is your evidence for that? Presenting only the relevant part of a dataset is sort of the norm, you know......

My evidence is in your own previous post: A timeline (using actual, derived data) which attempted to "fit" the desired outcome ("hockey stick" theory) by limiting the applied climate data to the last 22,000 years


So, in other words: you argument is irrelevant to this discussion? If the hockey stick is not specific to our current time frame, please provide a list of all the hockey stick events in geological history, that didn´t have catastrophic effects on life existing at that time. The others are by definition irrelevant to this discussion.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:42 pm

Another interesting article:

"The Uninhabitable Earth: Famine, economic collapse, a sun that cooks us: What climate change could wreak — sooner than you think."

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... umans.html
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:42 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
My claim is (and has been from my very first post above) that climate change has happened before.


Because that climate change happend before is not denied by anyone and certainly not in this threat.


Precisely...Yet I've been the one who has (previously in this thread) been labeled a denier! But why? I guess I shouldn't have dared to question why only a relatively minuscule portion of climate data was cherry-picked among the full body of data available, because to question what appears to be a bias in the procedure would be, I don't know, scientific? But I get it...Because I choose not to tote the dogma derived from cherry-picking (and instead choose to acknowledge as relevant the entire body of climate data), I am therefore...Denier! Heretic!

You can plainly see (based on actual, derived data and measurements) that our sun and the stars are revolving around the Earth, right? So how dare you question that the Earth is not the center of the universe!

tommy1808 wrote:
My claim is (and was) that a myopic chronological scale is used to effect the desired outcome...That while actual, derived data is being used toward the desired outcome, only a minuscule portion of the dataset is being applied in order to "fit" the desired outcome.


And where is your evidence for that? Presenting only the relevant part of a dataset is sort of the norm, you know......


Yet in discussing the Earth's climate (and how it changes), how is only the last 22,000 years possibly the only relevant part of the dataset? Therein lies the falacy.

tommy1808 wrote:
My evidence is in your own previous post: A timeline (using actual, derived data) which attempted to "fit" the desired outcome ("hockey stick" theory) by limiting the applied climate data to the last 22,000 years


So, in other words: you argument is irrelevant to this discussion? If the hockey stick is not specific to our current time frame


How is cherry-picking the last 22,000 years among the entire available climate dataset of Earth appropriate in a discussion on how the Earth's climate can change?

The discussion is about climate change...As much as it may be unsettling for the dogma, that does include the dead nautilii tucked under the Great Plains.

tommy1808 wrote:
please provide a list of all the hockey stick events in geological history, that didn´t have catastrophic effects on life existing at that time.


You're asking yet again, falsely, for something that I never claimed.

But that is a great way to try to win an argument (against those who otherwise would not be able to see through it), isn't it? ;)
Last edited by KFLLCFII on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:44 pm

KFLLCFII, data goes back almost 1 million years or trapped air so we can analyze the atmosphere. Do the research.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
KFLLCFII, data goes back almost 1 million years or trapped air so we can analyze the atmosphere. Do the research.....


KFLLCFII wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Given the fact that the history of the world (your timeline) ceases to acknowledge anything beyond 20,000 BC, we'll never know the answer to that question.


Actually million years: https://www.livescience.com/50795-antar ... hange.html

Wow, congratulations to Dutchy! ONE million whole years of geo-history! Do I hear TEN million? TWENTY million? You can do it!


No re-raise yet, huh?
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6641
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is climate change causing flight delays?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:03 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Precisely...Yet I've been the one who has (previously in this thread) been labeled a denier! But why?


probably because you have your own off topic discussion without telling anyone about it, that is completely unrelated to the issue at hand? No one is discussion the climate 65 million years ago, we are discussing the changed right now and how they effect flight schedules. So, 20° changes over million of years are irrelevant, 2° now are relevant.

I guess I shouldn't have dared to question why only a relatively minuscule portion of climate data was cherry-picked among the full body of data available


As i said before, because climate changes over millions of years are irrelevant. Changes slow enough for even evolution to keep pace are never a problem.

because to question what appears to be a bias in the procedure would be, I don't know, scientific?


Nope, digging through irrelevant noise is the opposite of "Scientific", that is the equivalent of asking for more intermediate fossiles .....

Because I choose not to tote the dogma derived from cherry-picking (and instead choose to acknowledge as relevant the entire body of climate data), I am therefore...Denier! Heretic!


You are mostly a heretic because you still haven´t delivered any evidence for your claim of cherry picking with regards to the topic being discussed.

You can plainly see (based on actual, derived data and measurements) that our sun and the stars are revolving around the Earth, right? So how dare you question that the Earth is not the center of the universe!


I got news for you. Earth is in the center of the observable universe as seen for all observers on earth....

You probably meant to say center of the solar system....

Yet in discussing the Earth's climate (and how it changes), how is only the last 22,000 years possibly the only relevant part of the dataset? Therein lies the falacy.


We are not discussing Earth´s climate and how it is changing, you should have understood that by now....

How is cherry-picking the last 22,000 years among the entire available climate dataset of Earth appropriate in a discussion on how the Earth's climate can change?


because even evolution can keep up with the changes in the past, the diversion from that speed is what is being discussed, and the last 22000 years are beyond ample to show that, espechially because before that timeframe, or in fact before the industrialisation, change has been slow. It is therefore irrelevant to a discussion regarding climate change happening too fast for even normal technological development at his time. They didn´t even manage to get performance tables ready in time.....

The discussion is about climate change


It is, in the very narrow sense of the accelerated climate change we see today.

...As much as it may be unsettling for the dogma, that does include the dead nautilii tucked under the Great Plains.


Not just is it irrelevant to the discussion, on top of that that could have happened without any climate change at all. Plate movement could accomplish that all by itself.

You're asking yet again, falsely, for something that I never claimed.


So i correctly claim that you are are just making statement irrelevant to the discussion. Since you can not provide any data showing that change as we see today has ever happened, you basically show nothing at all, most of all: no coherent argument.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aesma and 10 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos