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JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:16 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
Now if we could just get them to have only 1 building and not 2....


And yes everybody - except for the French - agrees on that, but it is still so minuscule.........

So I must conclude that your only aim is to discredit the EU and not to start a serious discussion in which you are going to contribute, well that's a shame, would like to hear your views on things that matter, no on these futile matters.


Estimates at £130 million a year.


Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:37 pm

JJJ wrote:
Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.

If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:42 pm

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.

If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.


I'm all for it, but if someone starts throwing numbers out of context so can I. I'd love to have apples to apples comparisons but I guess numbers will be hard to come by.

For one most countries nowadays have dedicated aircraft to fly VIPs around (Cam force one for the UK, or is it May force one now?), often buried within defence spending. The EU has no such resources.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:39 am

If you want a good laugh type into Google "they need us more than we need them" :)
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:19 am

JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.

If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.


I'm all for it, but if someone starts throwing numbers out of context so can I. I'd love to have apples to apples comparisons but I guess numbers will be hard to come by.

For one most countries nowadays have dedicated aircraft to fly VIPs around (Cam force one for the UK, or is it May force one now?), often buried within defence spending. The EU has no such resources.


Remember on here, when David Cameron became PM, his first visit to Washington....

Commercial BA flight, then off to New York on the Amtrak. A few people on here went crazy about no V.I.P or charter aircraft,
Yeah it was all spin for "austerity" and living within our means, but it certainly got people talking about it.
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:43 am

Why talk about money, when you should talk about freedom? The UK wants its freedom back and freedom is priceless.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:51 am

Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.


I'm all for it, but if someone starts throwing numbers out of context so can I. I'd love to have apples to apples comparisons but I guess numbers will be hard to come by.

For one most countries nowadays have dedicated aircraft to fly VIPs around (Cam force one for the UK, or is it May force one now?), often buried within defence spending. The EU has no such resources.


Remember on here, when David Cameron became PM, his first visit to Washington....

Commercial BA flight, then off to New York on the Amtrak. A few people on here went crazy about no V.I.P or charter aircraft,
Yeah it was all spin for "austerity" and living within our means, but it certainly got people talking about it.


Similarly it was all over the place when EU MPs flew around in Ryanair/Easyjet/whatever.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:21 am

seahawk wrote:
Why talk about money, when you should talk about freedom? The UK wants its freedom back and freedom is priceless.


The UK government disagrees, otherwise there would have been no need to promise a painfree Bexit.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:39 am

the delusion keeps going on ....

After finally somehow accepting that they can have all four freedoms of the common market or none of them, they now try to get temporary access to the common market, but not temporarily stay in the EU......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit#img-1

As if those two are different in any way ....

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:52 am

Agree, height of stupidity, why not spend their time and resources setting up their border controls, customs forms and procedures now versus waiting until after 2019? The cliff edge that business houses are talking about is them sitting down doing nothing during the 2 year period, versus putting the protocols in place and telling business leaders that this is how things will be done after they leave the EU.
I suspect most will view this as Remainers doing all they can to derail the will of the people via the referendum.
How much of a tariff is charged has nothing to do with setting up your border post, how many goods will be charged has nothing to do with having to hire and train customs officers, this whole putting the EU first seems backward, the EU is not going to be paying for putting those infrastructures in place after 2019, which all countries outside of the EU presently have and maintain.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:59 am

par13del wrote:
I suspect most will view this as Remainers doing all they can to derail the will of the people via the referendum..


hard Brexit is a clear minority position among the voters of that referendum. Colossal government screw up to give just 2 boxes for 3 options.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:15 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
hard Brexit is a clear minority position among the voters of that referendum. Colossal government screw up to give just 2 boxes for 3 options.

best regards
Thomas

Makes no difference to the EU, they have already stated the freedoms cannot be cherry picked, so what's the point of suggesting something to your public on your future relationship with the EU when the EU has already stated it is a non-starter?
The strategy may be to push the public to accept the Norway model, which if you mention it now would rile up the public, but by 2019 with the continued lack of progress, it may become more palatable, which once again, has nothing to do with the EU as nothing on that side is changing.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:31 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
hard Brexit is a clear minority position among the voters of that referendum. Colossal government screw up to give just 2 boxes for 3 options.

best regards
Thomas

Makes no difference to the EU, they have already stated the freedoms cannot be cherry picked, so what's the point of suggesting something to your public on your future relationship with the EU when the EU has already stated it is a non-starter?


the EU did never, in any way, exclude the UK from future access to the common market.

The strategy may be to push the public to accept the Norway model, which if you mention it now would rile up the public, but by 2019 with the continued lack of progress, it may become more palatable, which once again, has nothing to do with the EU as nothing on that side is changing.


Which is what the majority of the voters would accept, although their majority (remain) only grudgingly, but surely preferred over a hard Brexit they voted specifically against and is exactly what the rest of them wanted.

edit:
Image

Hard Brexit is a governement ignoring the citizen to a degree rarely ever seen in a democracy.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:03 pm

Prior to the referendum there was no Hard and Soft Brexit, just Brexit, the difference is a construct after the vote.
The EU position has been the same throughout, the freedoms are not up for discussion, so regardless of how you state it, the EU will give the UK access to the common market if they accept the freedoms, the UK voters have stated that they want to take back control of their country, there was no vote about access to this versus access to that etc etc etc.
Funny how the Brexit graph does not reflect the vote, so is it a case of the government not heeding the wishes of the people or catering to the special interest?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:31 pm

par13del wrote:
Prior to the referendum there was no Hard and Soft Brexit, just Brexit, the difference is a construct after the vote.


The words have probably not been used, but of course different exit models have been discussed.

The EU position has been the same throughout, the freedoms are not up for discussion, so regardless of how you state it, the EU will give the UK access to the common market if they accept the freedoms,


There is no such thing as "accept the freedoms", those freedoms are the common market and the UK is just as welcome outside the EU as it is inside.

the UK voters have stated that they want to take back control of their country, there was no vote about access to this versus access to that etc etc etc.


The UK voters have stated that they want to remain and/or to leave. Those voters in favor of the Norwegian model for sure didn´t want to "take back control of their country" in the sense you seem to imply, they obviously wanted all those common market rules to remain.

Funny how the Brexit graph does not reflect the vote, so is it a case of the government not heeding the wishes of the people or catering to the special interest?


Since about 60% (plus arguably 18%) don´t want to leave the common market it may be both, but sure as hell the government is ignoring the voters wishes. They just conveniently ignore that "leave" does not, not even by a long shot, mean hard Brexit. There is no reason not have a referendum on hard or soft brexit, since it doesn´t touch the question of cancelling the brexit, but they are not doing that, because they know perfectly well that "Hard Brexit" would die a quick and hard death in such a referendum. I wonder whos special interests they have so deeply at heart.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:51 pm

Give it time and the EU will cave in on freedom of movement.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:21 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Give it time and the EU will cave in on freedom of movement.


So, give up freedom of movement for 400+ million people, so 60+ million people can say "Yes, we own our borders"?

Not going to happen.... simply because there is absolutely no way to justify that.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
the delusion keeps going on ....

After finally somehow accepting that they can have all four freedoms of the common market or none of them, they now try to get temporary access to the common market, but not temporarily stay in the EU......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit#img-1

As if those two are different in any way ....

best regards
Thomas


And you choose the most anti brexit left wing paper going...
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ElPistolero
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:33 pm

Dano1977 wrote:

And you choose the most anti brexit left wing paper going...


Which parts of this story are untrue or incorrect?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:41 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
And you choose the most anti brexit left wing paper going...


Well, I didn't. The London times just has the article behind a paywall and hence you got a link from the 2nd UK newspaper I could think of.

I also have to agree with the following question:

ElPistolero wrote:
Which parts of this story are untrue or incorrect?


Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:01 pm

par13del wrote:
In my opinion they would be better off spending that money preparing the country for WTO rules versus giving sure money to the EU when there is no certainty that they will get that past parliament and the EU would already list it as a certainty with no sure way of having all members agree in any timely fashion.
Money has to be spent on securing the borders such as updating facilities, hiring and training staff, those have to be done in any event as it does not appear as if the country will take a Norway style model.
Where I fault the May government is they are putting the country specific items which they have to do on hold pending EU negotiations as if the EU is somehow going to take care of them, are they even designing new government forms, license decals, UK versions of EU documents - stands to reason the EU will not provide for free and when they change....- etc etc etc, there are many things an independent country has to do which for some has to duplicate what the EU does, its what independence is all about.


The EU could then probably sue the UK over the money, or otherwise retaliate nastily.
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UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Give it time and the EU will cave in on freedom of movement.


So, give up freedom of movement for 400+ million people, so 60+ million people can say "Yes, we own our borders"?

Not going to happen.... simply because there is absolutely no way to justify that.

best regards
Thomas


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40491497
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -fd3dwp7s3

Not to mention how Poland and Hungary feel about free movement. In fact, didn't the Paris attackers slip seamlessly between Belgium and France due to their being no border controls?
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:31 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:


LoL, you have to be kidding bringing that argument xD And no, the 4 funding principles will stay, even with the extreme right in Poland and Hungary shouting like crazy against freedoms (google "Poland Judicial Reform" or "Hungary education") to see how crazy/out of the world those regimes are, and how hard the EU is hitting them because of jumping into dictatorial scenarios. One setting up a law to allow the president to choose every single judge personally, and the others making military training mandatory in school. And more and more. Jesus Christ....

Seriously, do you have any idea what you are talking about apart from giving empty non sense statements full of self affirmation?

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
In fact, didn't the Paris attackers slip seamlessly between Belgium and France due to their being no border controls?


So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?

I mean.... are you talking seriously? :banghead:
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:11 am

Aesma wrote:

The EU could then probably sue the UK over the money, or otherwise retaliate nastily.

Which would be ideal for both sides, right now the number is political versus what the accountants and legal folks calculate, which is what would have to be presented in court. The nasty part is already present in the numbers, and yes it could get nastier.

To be clear, what I was saying was that rather than the UK offering up a sum they should start spending that money preparing for for 2019, the UK will not set the amount of the divorce bill, the EU will and then it will either be accepted or negotiated, if rejected it will end up in court.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:40 am

Jayafe wrote:
So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?


But New York and New Jersey are in the same country. Brussels and Paris aren't.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:06 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?


But New York and New Jersey are in the same country. Brussels and Paris aren't.


Since no one is getting into Poland that can't get a VISA to France directly that is relevant how exactly?

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:59 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?


But New York and New Jersey are in the same country. Brussels and Paris aren't.


From a borders point of view (and many others), as said before a visa is not required and there is freedom of movement, so they indeed are the "same" country when talking about frontiers. What you would call "classic frontiers" within the EU are situated in the external border, so indeed the analogy is correct. United States / European Union....see the similarities?

What about some geography and politics lectures and readings before coming to save the world?
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:02 pm

What was wrong with border between member states?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:07 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What was wrong with border between member states?


as someone that is old enough to remembers when they did exist and someone that crosses them over 100 times per year i would say just about everything.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:37 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What was wrong with border between member states?


as someone that is old enough to remembers when they did exist and someone that crosses them over 100 times per year i would say just about everything.

best regards
Thomas


Correct. And those of us who were unfortunate enough growing up on the wrong side of the iron curtain even remember all kinds of obstacles designed to prevent you from crossing.

It seems literally unbelievable that I'm discovering some beautiful places in north eastern Hungary now, during family visits from Canada. These places are literally few kilometers from the place I used to live in Slovakia. But crossing the border was so annoying, even after the fall of commie regimes. Now its a completely different story.
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Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:51 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What was wrong with border between member states?


:boggled: :banghead:

No, you definitely have no idea what you are talking about :white:
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:01 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
[Now its a completely different story.


Exactly! What many people don´t understand about the Schengen Agreement, not that there is nothing to criticize about it, is that it actually leads to less people coming into the Schengen member states, not more. Because, like most stuff going on in the EU, that is a consensus organisation. Meaning that the rules to obtain a VISA are more or less the harshest any of the members states pushes for. It is not like the UK, controlling its own borders, had any less non-EU immigrants as the Schengen area.

best regards
Thomas
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Aesma
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:01 pm

As a kid I crossed borders several times a year, but only on vacation. It wasn't a huge deal but it took some time. Now you don't even notice the frontier. Several of my family members live on either side of the Italian frontier, and work on the other, go see each other every other day, etc. If there were controls it would be a massive hindrance.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
As a kid I crossed borders several times a year, but only on vacation. It wasn't a huge deal but it took some time. Now you don't even notice the frontier. Several of my family members live on either side of the Italian frontier, and work on the other, go see each other every other day, etc. If there were controls it would be a massive hindrance.


Remember driving to Italy for vacation in 1997 and 1998. In 1997 there was a huge line-up on the highway, as we had to slow down for the immigration officers to wave us through. In 1998, we just slowed down when driving through the empty border station. Next year the border station was gone.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
[Now its a completely different story.


Exactly! What many people don´t understand about the Schengen Agreement, not that there is nothing to criticize about it, is that it actually leads to less people coming into the Schengen member states, not more. Because, like most stuff going on in the EU, that is a consensus organisation. Meaning that the rules to obtain a VISA are more or less the harshest any of the members states pushes for. It is not like the UK, controlling its own borders, had any less non-EU immigrants as the Schengen area.

best regards
Thomas


Hmmm, aren't the not wanted non-EU immigrants actually kept in the Schengen area so they won't even reach the UK shores? Or is this gone now?
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tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:36 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
non-EU immigrants actually kept in the Schengen area so they won't even reach the UK shores? Or is this gone now?


That is the Dublin Agreement and about as much to do with Schengen as Immigrants with Refugees: nothing.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:12 pm

Note that not Ireland or the UK are part of the Schengen area already........
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:40 pm

The Open Border via the Schengen "agreement" is a benefit that EU members can avail themselves of by signing up, the UK chose not to for whatever reason. Citizens of countries outside of the EU can apply for VISAS and once in country enjoy the same benefit during their stay.
I suspect Ireland did not sign up because the UK chose not to and the special relationship that existed between both entities on the island of Ireland and the UK, hence I'm somewhat puzzled why the Irish border has become such a big issue from the EU side.
I am almost at the stage of saying let's wait until 2019 when the serious negotiation start a week before the deadline.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:28 pm

par13del wrote:
I suspect Ireland did not sign up because the UK chose not to and the special relationship that existed between both entities on the island of Ireland and the UK, hence I'm somewhat puzzled why the Irish border has become such a big issue from the EU side.


In one word? Customs.

Best regards
Thomaa
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
I suspect Ireland did not sign up because the UK chose not to and the special relationship that existed between both entities on the island of Ireland and the UK, hence I'm somewhat puzzled why the Irish border has become such a big issue from the EU side.


In one word? Customs.

Best regards
Thomaa


Not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area (aka mini-UK-islander-Schengen)

Ireland had to choose free movement with the EU, or with the UK (as these didn't sign Schengen). We all know now that if they have to choose again, won't back UK. This was part of the reasons why Schengen is not mandatory.

The Irish border IS actually a major issue, as if what Brexiters suggest gets implemented, what they ask for, is basically a backdoor for good ands capitals, with no control at all, basically a wall in the east keeping the cake and a hole in the west eating it, and restrictions on people movement applied on the Irish side instead of the British one (less responsibility, less expenses). Ireland just need to sign Schengen to blow the whole proposal up.

Fence is coming....
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:56 pm

So Ireland gets a new economic revenue stream, being the backdoor for trade into the UK, beats being an Offshore Financial Capital, those are being attached left right and center.
To accommodate the Dublin agreement, this can be simple, EU between both Ireland's, and UK additional checks on all traffic arriving by sea and plane. Now whether the EU or Republic of Ireland will attempt to take additional advantage of this unique arrangement is another story...
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:31 pm

Jayafe wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What was wrong with border between member states?


:boggled: :banghead:

No, you definitely have no idea what you are talking about :white:


You haven't answered the question.

I'll just write you off as a lost cause then.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:54 am

tommy1808 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
[Now its a completely different story.


Exactly! What many people don´t understand about the Schengen Agreement, not that there is nothing to criticize about it, is that it actually leads to less people coming into the Schengen member states, not more. Because, like most stuff going on in the EU, that is a consensus organisation. Meaning that the rules to obtain a VISA are more or less the harshest any of the members states pushes for. It is not like the UK, controlling its own borders, had any less non-EU immigrants as the Schengen area.


Problem is most leave voters wanted less EU migrants (while keeping their right to go anywhere, of course).

Uncontrolled, unchecked..... those were the words thrown around.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:01 am

I think that the UK is trying to force ROI and EU to bear the political and monetary cost of a hard border. As I don't think they are totally inept, it is the only reason I see for them to come up with such a solution .
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:07 am

Olddog wrote:
I think that the UK is trying to force ROI and EU to bear the political and monetary cost of a hard border. .


which will probably we a lot less fun then what it would appear, since that would mean the EU would decide how many "EU" and how many "Non-EU" checkpoints will there be. If there is no 50/50 cost sharing, UK citizens may find themselves in line for an unpleasant amount of time.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:49 am

Olddog wrote:
I think that the UK is trying to force ROI and EU to bear the political and monetary cost of a hard border. As I don't think they are totally inept, it is the only reason I see for them to come up with such a solution .


Money is not the issue. The Northern Irish split is.

Put the border on the sea (as per Taoiseach Varadkar proposal) and the DUP and other unionists will fume, put a hard border and the republicans will riot. Keep people and stuff flowing and the whole corps of leavers will demand May's head.

As much as the British government pretends, there's no cake and eat it approach here. Someone will feel deeply wronged no matter the outcome. And with May's fledging support that makes it even worse.
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:14 am

Nice piece for clarification of the situation:

...But to understand how this seems to the Irish government and to most people on the island, imagine you are in a decent job. It is reasonably paid, apparently secure and the working environment is quite amicable. Your neighbour, who you like but do not quite trust (there’s a bit of history there) comes to you with a proposition. She’s establishing an extremely risky start-up venture with a high probability of catastrophic failure. Will you join her? Well, you ask, what are the possible rewards? Ah, she says, if – against the odds – everything goes splendidly, you’ll get the same pay and conditions you have now...
...This [the new paper] is a welcome concession to reality, but it is predicated on an even bigger unreality: the assumption that the EU will agree to something quite extraordinary: that a 500km external EU border with more than 200 crossing points will be effectively unpoliced. People and goods will pass over it without let or hindrance. Smugglers, people traffickers and terrorists will go on their merry way unmolested. Small companies will not have to do customs checks at all; large ones will operate a charming honour system in which they retrospectively declare the goods they have moved and pay their duties...
...The absurdity of the proposition becomes clear when we think about all the new trade deals that post-Brexit Britain is going to make. With no Irish border controls, US beef, Australian lamb, Chinese steel and Indian cars can be imported into Belfast, sent an hour down the road to Dundalk and exported tariff-free to France, Germany or any other EU country. The only way to stop this happening would be in effect to make Ireland itself a semi-detached member of the EU with all Irish exports subjected to customs controls at EU ports. And this is simply not going to happen – why on earth would any Irish government ever agree to it ?

This is why the position paper, for all its nice words, feels less like a serious attempt to find solutions and more like an early move in the blame game that will unfold when those solutions have not been found. It claims the moral high ground: Britain is utterly opposed to a hard border. Thus, when the EU responds by saying that a hard border follows inevitably from a decision to leave the customs union, it will be the EU’s fault. But this is not a blame game or any other kind of game. It is deadly serious. Britain has enormous political and moral responsibilities in Ireland. The position paper tells us what fulfilling those responsibilities would look like in practice – and it looks very like preserving the status quo. The minimum necessary for that to be a credible proposition would be for Britain to stay in the customs union. If it is not willing to do that, it cannot claim to be taking its responsibilities seriously.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tion-paper
 
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scbriml
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:38 am

JJJ wrote:
Money is not the issue. The Northern Irish split is.

Put the border on the sea (as per Taoiseach Varadkar proposal) and the DUP and other unionists will fume, put a hard border and the republicans will riot. Keep people and stuff flowing and the whole corps of leavers will demand May's head.

As much as the British government pretends, there's no cake and eat it approach here. Someone will feel deeply wronged no matter the outcome. And with May's fledging support that makes it even worse.


For people, I don't see how an open border between RoI and NI is any different post-Brexit to what's in place today. Given RoI is already outside the Schengen agreement and that the UK wants visa-free travel for EU citizens, the only difference post-Brexit would be that an EU citizen that travels to RoI, then crosses the 'non border' into NI would not have the right to live or work there that they do today.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:42 am

You forgot the goods part ?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:44 am

scbriml wrote:
For people, I don't see how an open border between RoI and NI is any different post-Brexit to what's in place today. Given RoI is already outside the Schengen agreement and that the UK wants visa-free travel for EU citizens, the only difference post-Brexit would be that an EU citizen that travels to RoI, then crosses the 'non border' into NI would not have the right to live or work there that they do today.


Again one word: customs.

In order to take care of that, you have to have checkpoints. Bye bye open border. Unless the UK stays in the common market.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
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