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tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:29 am

Dano1977 wrote:
Can we expect the EU to keep it's obligations it promised to finance in the UK before A50 was handed over?


Of course. Outside the current UK government everybody understands obligations are a two way street.

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Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:33 am

vc10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And so there are other costs as well, whom is picking up the tab for moving EU institutions from the UK to other countries?
UK decided to leave, why should the rest of the EU pay for it?


Dutchy ----- Using your own logic, the UK is not forcing the EU to move these institutions, but the EU wants to move them therefore the EU should pay

littlevc10


The logical consequence of the UK-decision, therefore the UK is "forcing" the move. Don't try to turn the argument around.
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LJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:36 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
So you would prefer we just walk away and pay nothing?


The EU probably will. The UK tries to divide the EU members by this policy but probably make them even more angry. Wouldn't surpise me if P&L calculations are made and most likely will result in a very hard Brexit and a sour relationship.

Dano1977 wrote:
I've read reports that when the U.K. finally leaves, the EU budget would be 15% down without the UK's contributions. The pressure isn't on the UK, its on the EU.

.
You do realise that some countries wouldn't mind this? You talk about the "EU" but in the end this "EU" consists of a number of independent countries who (now always) have the same objectives. There are a lot of politicans in Brussels who want a lower EU budget, and they will see this as a political opportunity to reduce the budget. Therefore, don't automatically assume that a lower budget is something the EU negociators care much about. They only care that the UK pays what's budgetted (on a net basis). However, even then I don't think that the amount of money the EU gets is a real breakingpoint (as they can always win it back in the trade negociations).
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:45 pm

UK pensions are UK pensions, whether the individual is in the EU or the UK it is the responsibility of the UK government, no different than some medical care provided, some if not all chargers are sent back to the individuals home country to recoup the host countries outlays. I don't see where that is such a complicated issue, what we expect to change is the level of benefits, the UK having a smaller base we would expect their benefits to eventually be smaller than those of the EU. If UK citizens want to maintain EU level benefits they can always migrate, as in become nationals of the EU country in which they reside, fortunately or unfortunately, that is the way the rest of the world works. Based on how things are going now, they maybe able to claim economic refugee status.

The EU is fortunate in that they placed some requirements in to their benefit only, so the rule that EU institutions must reside in a EU country means that all institutions must move from the UK, the logic that the UK must then pay for the move is suspect, sounds like collective punishment which the EU is against, but it is the rule, so whereas the UK must negotiate for access the EU has no choice but to up and leave and the leaving member must pay, I assume it must be like this since no member would put such contingencies in a multi-year budget since the rules are stacked to ensure that it is not in a members financial interest to leave the group.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:09 pm

LJ wrote:
They only care that the UK pays what's budgetted (on a net basis). However, even then I don't think that the amount of money the EU gets is a real breakingpoint (as they can always win it back in the trade negociations).

This is where I see the error. The EU cannot expect the UK to "pay more" as they have been on a net basis into the EU than they get out. You can only expect the UK to pay a fair equitable value and for services used. It will not be the same "surplus".

Tugg
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
This is where I see the error. The EU cannot expect the UK to "pay more" as they have been on a net basis into the EU than they get out. You can only expect the UK to pay a fair equitable value and for services used. It will not be the same "surplus".

Tugg

Let's wait and see if someone also comes up with attempting to claw back the Thatcher rebates, all is fair in negotiations. Based on the noise in the UK market, a number of persons who did not support leaving seem happy to push the government to pony up substantial sums to have as many things remain as is after the 2019 deadline.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:17 pm

par13del wrote:
UK pensions are UK pensions, whether the individual is in the EU or the UK it is the responsibility of the UK government, no different than some medical care provided, some if not all chargers are sent back to the individuals home country to recoup the host countries outlays.


I guess we misunderstood each other, I mean the pensions for EU-politicians and EU-public servants. EU as an employer. Not for the ordinary citizen. The public servants and politicians took good care of itself, so huge pensions and other benefits. Are you suggesting that all these people are stripped of their rights? Or that the UK government will take it over?
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:21 pm

par13del wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This is where I see the error. The EU cannot expect the UK to "pay more" as they have been on a net basis into the EU than they get out. You can only expect the UK to pay a fair equitable value and for services used. It will not be the same "surplus".

Tugg

Let's wait and see if someone also comes up with attempting to claw back the Thatcher rebates, all is fair in negotiations. Based on the noise in the UK market, a number of persons who did not support leaving seem happy to push the government to pony up substantial sums to have as many things remain as is after the 2019 deadline.


Well hopefully the UK will remain the same as much as possible, but the noises from White Hall are suggestion something else. As I have said many times, the UK can choose the level of participation it wishes, with all the benefits and drawbacks which come with that choice. And I hope for a Norwegian style of participation.
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:

I guess we misunderstood each other, I mean the pensions for EU-politicians and EU-public servants. EU as an employer. Not for the ordinary citizen. The public servants and politicians took good care of itself, so huge pensions and other benefits. Are you suggesting that all these people are stripped of their rights? Or that the UK government will take it over?

Let's separate the Pension Amounts and obligations from the disbursements (when and how folks get their monthly cheques / deposits).
Pensions especially mandatory ones are huge money makers for governments, it gives them immediate capital to invest as they will not be paid for a long time, the reason why the pension age continues to climb is that the funds are not deposited in untouched account, hence the reason why controls are so important.
My thought is that EU and UK Pensions will remain regardless of where the person is working or resides, the respective governments will disburse the funds allowing the controls and verification to remain simple, example a EU citizen would not have to return to a EU nation for verification and vice versa for the UK, the amounts would be what the individual governments had previously agreed with their citizens, so disbursements in the UK to EU citizens would be the EU pension amount and vice versa, this would work well for retirees, for folks still working, I assume all amounts are a percentage of ones salary up to a minimum base salary. Each side would reimburse the other for the payments to their citizens, so not taking over the obligations just facilitating the payments.
In time, it may become the subject of employment negotiations, companies in both jurisdictions may ultimately have to include additional housing and other benefits to attract workers as free movement will no longer apply.
A general question, within the EU, do companies have to include full housing and school benefits to attract workers from other EU countries?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Let's separate the Pension Amounts and obligations from the disbursements (when and how folks get their monthly cheques / deposits).
Pensions especially mandatory ones are huge money makers for governments, it gives them immediate capital to invest as they will not be paid for a long time, the reason why the pension age continues to climb is that the funds are not deposited in untouched account, hence the reason why controls are so important.
My thought is that EU and UK Pensions will remain regardless of where the person is working or resides, the respective governments will disburse the funds allowing the controls and verification to remain simple, example a EU citizen would not have to return to a EU nation for verification and vice versa for the UK, the amounts would be what the individual governments had previously agreed with their citizens, so disbursements in the UK to EU citizens would be the EU pension amount and vice versa, this would work well for retirees, for folks still working, I assume all amounts are a percentage of ones salary up to a minimum base salary. Each side would reimburse the other for the payments to their citizens, so not taking over the obligations just facilitating the payments.
In time, it may become the subject of employment negotiations, companies in both jurisdictions may ultimately have to include additional housing and other benefits to attract workers as free movement will no longer apply.
A general question, within the EU, do companies have to include full housing and school benefits to attract workers from other EU countries?


We are still talking about something else. Now I have reached the limits of my English, so hopefully, Google translate did its job :-)

The pensions for EU workers/politicians are paid out with a cover system, instead of an individual system, so the EU has obligations for his (former) workers, regardless from which country they originate. So the pension plan of EU workers is underfunded at the moment. But this should only be a small portion of the total agreed upon. Perhaps there are more long term project who were financed long time ago, like research projects or space projects etc.
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So the pension plan of EU workers is underfunded at the moment. But this should only be a small portion of the total agreed upon. Perhaps there are more long term project who were financed long time ago, like research projects or space projects etc.

The under-fund of the EU Pensions is a fundamental EU problem which should not be a factor in Brexit, the UK pensions and indeed most countries that have mandatory pensions are all underfunded. Even if the UK for some reason decided to make up the under-funding, you can be assured that in another 5 years or so the pension fund will once again be under-funded, the issue is not having someone make up the difference, it is ensuring that the under-fund never takes place. On the EU side, if closing the Pension gap becomes a part of the Brexit negotiations, EU citizens should be aggressive in holding the politicians to implement stronger rules / procedures to ensure that the fundamentals which created the under-fund are removed, good luck with that but....one can only hope.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:58 pm

par13del wrote:
The under-fund of the EU Pensions is a fundamental EU problem which should not be a factor in Brexit, .


Why? It's a liability the EU has got, with the UK still a member. So it should be part of the divorce bill.
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vc10
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:05 pm

par13del, I think Dutchy is talking about the pensions due to staff of the EU government in Brussels . Some of these staff would have been employed by the EU government to handle and advise British MEP etc and with Brexit will now be without a job . So what is being said is that the British government should be responsible for their pensions as they only lost their job due to Brexit.
Now what I would like to know is who appointed these staff in the first place
1] If it was the EU then they are EU employees and it is the EU's responsibility
or 2] If it was the the British government who hired them then it is the UK responsibility to decide what terms they are due from now on.

Mind you I could be completely wrong, I often am
littlevc10
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:19 pm

No ,spot on, Liitlevc10.

EU employees are hired by the EU, but I think with a quota, so each nationality is "represented". British MEP isn't the problem, they are not going to be "re-elected", there will be elections for the EP in 2019.

The "problem" is that the EU is its member states, so the UK is part of that, so it should be their responsibility if there are consequences from the period they were a member. And, as you say, all the Brits in all the European institution will be fired by March 2019, all those contracts need to be resolved, which will cost quite a lot of money. All a consequence of the Brittish decision, not fair to leave the bill with me (along with my fellow 460-ish million Europeans).
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JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
. And, as you say, all the Brits in all the European institution will be fired by March 2019, all those contracts need to be resolved.


They will not. Nor are the EU public servants subject to nationality quotas (British are one of the under represented nationalities as a percentage of population)

British citizens won't be able to apply anymore after Brexit, but those who are in will be able to stay until retirement if they want it so.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:17 pm

JJJ wrote:
but those who are in will be able to stay until retirement if they want it so.


I find that highly unlikely, do you have any source of that?
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:30 pm

So these are essentially aids to the elected MEP's, somewhat like EU civil servants?
If so, why do they have to be retired, why can they not be reassigned to other members, one would think that first preference would be to reallocate them versus new hires. Even if we go with the quota system, unless these are individuals at retirement age, they will continue to seek employment, so the UK will be responsible for paying employment benefits until they find new jobs?
At the end of the day, the jobs are gone, no different than if a factory closes down because its products are no longer in demand.
I would have thought they would be EU hires, imagine a new member to the EU, they would need a lot of assistance which only the EU could provide.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:49 pm

Pensions are not aid. Probably they have some kind of arrangements to aid former MEP, or at least that is how it is done within The Netherlands.

Don't you have to be a Brittish national to be hired by the UK government, at least at positions which handle sensitive materials? I can imagine that it might be a problem nowadays because, on a lot of subjects, the EU interest isn't the same as UK interest.

Many positions need to be filled, the Brits are doing some jobs ;-)

As far as sacking someone with a contract, you need to buy off that contract or at least according to Dutch law, I don't know which laws apply to the EU workfoce.
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Don't you have to be a Brittish national to be hired by the UK government, at least at positions which handle sensitive materials? I can imagine that it might be a problem nowadays because, on a lot of subjects, the EU interest isn't the same as UK interest.

Unless we are talking about "glorified secretaries", I would assume their jobs in Brussels would be to represent the UK interest within the folds of the EU, so I assume these would be EU specialist, persons who are versed in the rules, regulations and procedures of the EU and are able to advise a member government.
If they are in fact UK nationals hired by the UK there should be no issue, they receive UK pensions or are re-located back to the UK for employment elsewhere in the government service. However, I would not be shocked to find out that somehow someway they were allowed to have their pensions tied to the EU level of benefits and contributions if those were / are higher that what is provided to civil servants in the UK, and now they find themselves between the rock and a hard place.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:34 pm

Why would you presume that? I would assume that these EU civil servants do their job with the interest of the EU in mind, not the UK. They are employed by the EU, not the UK. If you want a permanent job within the EU, you need to pass the EU concours, which suppose to be quite hard. But one of the requirements is that you need to be a citizen of one of the memberstates, that's why I would be highly surprised if any Brits will be there after the Brexit.
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LTenEleven
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:56 pm

double post
double post
double post
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why would you presume that? I would assume that these EU civil servants do their job with the interest of the EU in mind, not the UK.

...which is the primary function of the parliament in Brussels, it is about the EU and not the individual members. MEP's represent their host nations within the bounds of the EU, if a proposed rule or regulation does not benefit the entire group it does not get enacted. National governments still exist, so I would say the primary responsibility of anyone working in Brussels is always the EU first, then national government second.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:18 pm

Not talking about MEP's and their staff, that is a political function with a limited shelf life, five years, in this case, they would be up for reelection in 2019 in any case. I am talking about British nationals employed as EU civil servants within the EU-commission and its institutions.
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:59 pm

I understand and my point in the previous post remains, if they are UK nationals employed by the EU they should be no different than any other UK national employed in the EU by a private company, however, politics being what it is, I would not be shocked if there were some additional caveats.

"Don't you have to be a Brittish national to be hired by the UK government, at least at positions which handle sensitive materials? I can imagine that it might be a problem nowadays because, on a lot of subjects, the EU interest isn't the same as UK interest. "

If these individuals were hired solely to assist the UK then their positions will become redundant, but if they were hired to work in the EU their continued employment within the block should be based on performance unless they have a contract. I'm sure there are foreigners working in the EU who are from Canada, the USA or other non-EU countries, UK nationals should mimic their requirements, if work permits have to be paid for they could negotiate that with the UK government, as for their pensions, if the EU employed them its a EU obligation. The values could be NPV and paid out releasing the obligation, but I don't think the EU would take that route without first getting the funding from the UK, which may not be a sure thing...after all, they may have voluntarily decided to go work for the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:40 pm

I would presume no other nationalities (dual citizenship doesn't apply here) are within the civil service, perhaps some very specialized jobs are the exception to the rule. As far as I can see is that it is a requirement to be a citizen of one of the member state and that will not be the case after the Brexit, so that will be a breach of contract, so to speak. I would find it highly unlikely if these Britts were allowed to stay for the next max. 40 years. But perhaps you are right, we will see.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Civil_Service

And for employees rights in general, the EU point of view is that everything should remain the same for all UK citizens living within the EU, the Brittish want to make EU citizens the second class of citizen.
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
And for employees rights in general, the EU point of view is that everything should remain the same for all UK citizens living within the EU, the Brittish want to make EU citizens the second class of citizen.

Which may ultimately create some discontent in the EU, why would citizens of a non-member get the same benefits of a member, even if the UK paid for the privilege.
Key thing with the UK proposal is the pathway to citizenship or residence if the EU members choose to stay. The reverse can get very complicated, for a UK citizen being able to stay in the EU zone is one thing, becoming a citizen of one of the member countries is another, guess that's why there was a surge to obtain Irish passports, probably the easiest route.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:12 am

perhaps, but the quid pro quo was that nothing should change for EU citizen currently living in the UK, so I think it would be ok.
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JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
JJJ wrote:
but those who are in will be able to stay until retirement if they want it so.


I find that highly unlikely, do you have any source of that?


Besides my own British friend in Brussels working for the Commission who was assured they could stay (though he's considering taking up Belgian citizenship just in case) here's a page from the EU workers biggest trade union which answers several questions on the issue.

http://u4unity.eu/brexit.htm

I am in activity, will I be fired on the day UK leaves the EU ?
Civil servants, contract agents, temporary agents having been appointed before the Brexit, are lawfully appointed according to the rules applicable at the time and therefore, their appointment or contract is valid and should continue its natural term. Of course, pension rights and other allowances acquired by virtue of these are equally valid (see below for exceptions). These costs should be borne by the EU budget irrespective of the composition of the EU Member States.


Basically if you were eligible to get the job, when you got it you can't have it taken from you.

Of course British MPs/commissioners, etc. and their non-civil servant assistants (that don't go through the EU selection process but are instead picked up by the MP/Commissioner/etc.) will lose their position, but those British workers of the EU (HR, translators, admin work, computer support, etc.) will still be very much in if they wish to continue.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:02 am

They will be revoked. Ironically the due process is also spelled in an other article 50, the one they have in their contracts, according to junker on French TV :)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:11 am

JJJ wrote:
Basically if you were eligible to get the job, when you got it you can't have it taken from you.


Nice catch, so basically, with the exception of specialized jobs, they might stay, although there appeared to be an article in their contracts:

The employer could decide to use some clauses of the Staff regulations such as the ‘early retirement’ (art 42c), ‘compulsory resignation’ (art 49, which makes an explicit reference to the loss of the citizenship mentioned in art. 28(a) as a condition for appointment) or the ‘retirement in the interests of the service’ (art 50).
These clauses might be used on a case by case basis by the EU institutions to adapt to the reductions of budgets, of missions and geographical scope of EU action. They may also be applied to non-British Staff


Ah well, we will see. But the cost for UK staff might be one of those things covered by the 40-50bn. Although the administration cost only accounts for 6% of the EU budget.
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olle
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:41 pm

15% was of the last budget. Since that budget most east europe has grown dramatic. Ireland has grown etc. This means that many countries anyway was supposed to recieve less.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:08 pm

In other news....

500,000Euro spent in January and February 2016 on travel.

Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker includes an astonishing €27,000 bill for a two-day trip to Rome on a private jet.


Juncker, based in Brussels, also claimed nearly €2000 for a one night trip to Berlin (a single ticket on a budget airline costs around €25 Euro). He even claimed for minor excursions despite his €324,377 (£275,275) salary: he was paid €48 in ‘daily allowances’ to attend a meeting in Germany with Martin Schulz.


Commissioners enjoyed 261 official trips in January and Feburary 2016. Britain’s former Commissioner Jonathan Hill spent €422 on food and drink and €1017 on hotels during a two day trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Tax-payer funded extravagances included splurging on ‘air taxis’ – chartered planes – by foreign affairs chief Federica Mogherini, who spent €75,000 in a single trip to Azerbaijan. Christos Stylianides, the commissioner for humanitarian aid, claimed €11,000 for a trip to Somalia and Turkey.


https://www.access-info.org/commissioners-expenses
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tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:32 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
In other news....
500,000Euro spent in January and February 2016 on travel.


From the numbers in your quotes you only get to half a mill if you include junckers annual salery.
If it is the total, 500k/261 trips is less than 2000 euro per trip. That is not unreasonable since some trips will get expensive due to scheduling. Not really more than business trips of upper management in medium sized companies.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
In other news....
500,000Euro spent in January and February 2016 on travel.


From the numbers in your quotes you only get to half a mill if you include junckers annual salery.
If it is the total, 500k/261 trips is less than 2000 euro per trip. That is not unreasonable since some trips will get expensive due to scheduling. Not really more than business trips of upper management in medium sized companies.

Best regards
Thomas


Expenses incurred.

27000euro for a trip to Rome?
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:55 pm

Dano1977 wrote:

27000euro for a trip to Rome?


Depends on the reason. For convince it would be a waste, but if that was the only way to keep the schedule and avoid potentially dozens of people having to reschedule or redo trips, a private yet can be a real money saver. Why do you think those are called business jets and not government jets? Because they have a RoI.
With an average of less that 2000 Eur/trip, traveling seems to be handled quite efficiently.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:09 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
In other news....

500,000Euro spent in January and February 2016 on travel.

Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker includes an astonishing €27,000 bill for a two-day trip to Rome on a private jet.


Juncker, based in Brussels, also claimed nearly €2000 for a one night trip to Berlin (a single ticket on a budget airline costs around €25 Euro). He even claimed for minor excursions despite his €324,377 (£275,275) salary: he was paid €48 in ‘daily allowances’ to attend a meeting in Germany with Martin Schulz.


Commissioners enjoyed 261 official trips in January and Feburary 2016. Britain’s former Commissioner Jonathan Hill spent €422 on food and drink and €1017 on hotels during a two day trip to the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Tax-payer funded extravagances included splurging on ‘air taxis’ – chartered planes – by foreign affairs chief Federica Mogherini, who spent €75,000 in a single trip to Azerbaijan. Christos Stylianides, the commissioner for humanitarian aid, claimed €11,000 for a trip to Somalia and Turkey.


https://www.access-info.org/commissioners-expenses


6% of the annual budget is the cost of administration. You could cherry pick all kinds of stuff, and you would be right on these occasions, but the overall line seems to be quite restrained.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:01 am

Dano1977 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
In other news....
500,000Euro spent in January and February 2016 on travel.


From the numbers in your quotes you only get to half a mill if you include junckers annual salery.
If it is the total, 500k/261 trips is less than 2000 euro per trip. That is not unreasonable since some trips will get expensive due to scheduling. Not really more than business trips of upper management in medium sized companies.

Best regards
Thomas


Expenses incurred.

27000euro for a trip to Rome?


For 10 people, on a private jet. I'm getting rountrip fares of about 1.200-1.300 euro return for a BRU-FCO ticket for next week. So it's not really that much of a difference.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
6% of the annual budget is the cost of administration.


That is one of the most puzzling misconceptions about the EU in any case, that it is a bureaucratic monster, while the European Comission, that runs much of a continent of 500 million people, has about the size of the number of public servants of a medium sized city. It is run by about a 1/3rd the staff of the United States Department of Agriculture.... .

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:28 am

What was the cost for Davies 2 hours trip in Brussels last negotiation?
 
olle
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:37 am

Olddog wrote:
What was the cost for Davies 2 hours trip in Brussels last negotiation?


Private jet for a 45 min meating?
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:09 am

JJJ wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

From the numbers in your quotes you only get to half a mill if you include junckers annual salery.
If it is the total, 500k/261 trips is less than 2000 euro per trip. That is not unreasonable since some trips will get expensive due to scheduling. Not really more than business trips of upper management in medium sized companies.

Best regards
Thomas


Expenses incurred.

27000euro for a trip to Rome?


For 10 people, on a private jet. I'm getting rountrip fares of about 1.200-1.300 euro return for a BRU-FCO ticket for next week. So it's not really that much of a difference.



2,927 euro (£2,650) per person cost of the flight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40877721
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:37 am

And so what? British tabloids try to create a scandal as a distraction. Do you think they fool anyone outside UK ?
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
6% of the annual budget is the cost of administration.


That is one of the most puzzling misconceptions about the EU in any case, that it is a bureaucratic monster, while the European Comission, that runs much of a continent of 500 million people, has about the size of the number of public servants of a medium sized city. It is run by about a 1/3rd the staff of the United States Department of Agriculture.... .

best regards
Thomas


That's a bit of a red herring though?

The EU doesn't run hospitals
The EU doesn't run schools
The EU doesn't look after the vulnerable
The EU doesn't have social services
The EU doesn't have a child services
The EU doesn't have a fire service

Licencing depts for alcohol,gambling,entertainment and taxis
Environmental health inspections

Planning for new buildings
Highways dept for road maintenance


So claiming the EU is efficient because it has less civil servants than a small city is pretty misleading, as the EU doesn't do a lot of things a small city would or required to do.
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:04 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
So claiming the EU is efficient because it has less civil servants than a small city is pretty misleading, as the EU doesn't do a lot of things a small city would or required to do.


And cities don´t negotiate trade deals and so on and so forth, there is a ton of stuff the EU Commission does that cities don´t.

It does however do a lot in agriculture and does that and everything else they do with just 1/3 of the US Department of Agricultures manpower for 1.5 times the people. There are no two ways about it, the EU Commission is one of the most efficient governing bodies anywhere. They for sure will have their waste and such, but overall efficiency is amazingly high. Lots to criticize about the commission, but wasting money isn´t really one of them. Trying to paint them that way is just flat out laughable.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:20 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
6% of the annual budget is the cost of administration.


That is one of the most puzzling misconceptions about the EU in any case, that it is a bureaucratic monster, while the European Comission, that runs much of a continent of 500 million people, has about the size of the number of public servants of a medium sized city. It is run by about a 1/3rd the staff of the United States Department of Agriculture.... .

best regards
Thomas


That's a bit of a red herring though?

The EU doesn't run hospitals
The EU doesn't run schools
The EU doesn't look after the vulnerable
The EU doesn't have social services
The EU doesn't have a child services
The EU doesn't have a fire service

Licencing depts for alcohol,gambling,entertainment and taxis
Environmental health inspections

Planning for new buildings
Highways dept for road maintenance


So claiming the EU is efficient because it has less civil servants than a small city is pretty misleading, as the EU doesn't do a lot of things a small city would or required to do.


You seem to suggest that the EU isn't efficient. And it is true that there are less civil servants in Brussels than in a small city and it is true that it only cost 6% of the total budget, which in itself is around 1% of the GDP.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:

You seem to suggest that the EU isn't efficient. And it is true that there are less civil servants in Brussels than in a small city and it is true that it only cost 6% of the total budget, which in itself is around 1% of the GDP.


And from that you have to substract expenses saved by the member states, like not needing 27 teams of trade negotiation staff.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:52 pm

Now if we could just get them to have only 1 building and not 2....
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:35 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Now if we could just get them to have only 1 building and not 2....


And yes everybody - except for the French - agrees on that, but it is still so minuscule.........

So I must conclude that your only aim is to discredit the EU and not to start a serious discussion in which you are going to contribute, well that's a shame, would like to hear your views on things that matter, no on these futile matters.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
Now if we could just get them to have only 1 building and not 2....


And yes everybody - except for the French - agrees on that, but it is still so minuscule.........

So I must conclude that your only aim is to discredit the EU and not to start a serious discussion in which you are going to contribute, well that's a shame, would like to hear your views on things that matter, no on these futile matters.


Estimates at £130 million a year, or about £910 million in the seven-year cycle of an EU budget. Just under a £Billion.

So much could be done with that. More subsidies for French Farmers, or another bailout for Greece.

Futile indeed.
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:00 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
Now if we could just get them to have only 1 building and not 2....


And yes everybody - except for the French - agrees on that, but it is still so minuscule.........

So I must conclude that your only aim is to discredit the EU and not to start a serious discussion in which you are going to contribute, well that's a shame, would like to hear your views on things that matter, no on these futile matters.


Estimates at £130 million a year, or about £910 million in the seven-year cycle of an EU budget. Just under a £Billion.

So much could be done with that. More subsidies for French Farmers, or another bailout for Greece.

Futile indeed.


:roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
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