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Dutchy
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Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:58 am

The European Parliament has branded Theresa May’s proposals on EU citizens’ rights a “damp squib” and said they will not approve a Brexit deal that does not offer more.

In articles published across Europe, the European Parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator Guy Verhofstadt and other key figures said the Prime Minister’s proposals for the three million EU nationals that live in the UK fall short of its own ambitions to “put citizens first”.

“It would,” Mr Verhofstadt states, “cast a dark cloud of vagueness and uncertainty over the lives of millions of Europeans”.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 32246.html

Not a good sign.
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KLDC10
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:35 am

From what I've read, Mrs May's offer seems to be quite fair. Though it is hardly surprising that neither side wishes to back down on the issue. As I understand it, her offer is dependent on the EU reciprocating those rights for Britons in Europe - so it doesn't seem like she is asking for anything more for British Citizens in Europe than she is willing to give to European Citizens in Britain.

It seems understandable, too, that she would seek to place a five year limit on the acquisition of "settled status". It has been known for over a year that the United Kingdom will be leaving the EU, and I guess she'd like to prevent a surge of EU migrants moving to Britain in the days and weeks before Brexit occurs in order to take advantage of a more generous deal than the one she has presented. Three million is a large number - she has to be very careful about how she handles this.

That said, it does seem as though the likelihood of an amicable divorce is becoming smaller by the day. It will be interesting to see what happens if Britain decides to simply walk out without a deal. It won't be great for either party, but Mrs May and Mr Davis are in an unenviable position in that they have to try to please different factions of the European Parliament and a whole host of other countries with their own interests. I imagine that the temptation is strong to walk out; or at least threaten to do so.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:35 am

What a bunch of arrogant pricks. The UK offer was reasonable, and at least a good starting point for discussion. The EU has 2 or 3 times more people living in the UK than there are Brits in other EU countries. The EU has more to lose than the UK on this issue.

But as has been said before, the EU is willing to take (and cause) economic damage to ensure that the UK suffers because of Brexit, because allowing the UK to prosper outside of the EU would endanger the entire Union.
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:41 am

Well, the UK proposal was generous, but if the EU does not want it, simply deport all EU nationals on the 31st March 2019.
 
mmo
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:52 am

KLDC10 wrote:
From what I've read, Mrs May's offer seems to be quite fair. Though it is hardly surprising that neither side wishes to back down on the issue. As I understand it, her offer is dependent on the EU reciprocating those rights for Britons in Europe - so it doesn't seem like she is asking for anything more for British Citizens in Europe than she is willing to give to European Citizens in Britain.

It seems understandable, too, that she would seek to place a five year limit on the acquisition of "settled status". It has been known for over a year that the United Kingdom will be leaving the EU, and I guess she'd like to prevent a surge of EU migrants moving to Britain in the days and weeks before Brexit occurs in order to take advantage of a more generous deal than the one she has presented. Three million is a large number - she has to be very careful about how she handles this.

That said, it does seem as though the likelihood of an amicable divorce is becoming smaller by the day. It will be interesting to see what happens if Britain decides to simply walk out without a deal. It won't be great for either party, but Mrs May and Mr Davis are in an unenviable position in that they have to try to please different factions of the European Parliament and a whole host of other countries with their own interests. I imagine that the temptation is strong to walk out; or at least threaten to do so.


As an Irish citizen living in the UK, I disagree!

First of all, we will now have to get IDs. Why? We will the only group who is required to get IDs now adding another layer of onerous paperwork by the Home Office. Secondly, a UK citizen will be able to to move to the EU with no income threshold while EU citizens will have to demonstrate 18,400 GBP/person. The British Citizens will have their rights protected by the EU Courts while the EU Citizens will be handled in the UK courts. In my case, my children and wife are non-EU Citizens, but as long as I am exercising my treaty rights, they have the right to live and work here. Nothing has been done to clarify their status.

The list goes on and on. The EU's offer was on the table before the UK played their cards. In a nutshell, the EU guaranteed all citizens, including UK nationals living in Europe, would be treated equally and lose no current rights. So, the UK offer is miles apart.
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:55 am

KLDC10 wrote:
From what I've read, Mrs May's offer seems to be quite fair. Though it is hardly surprising that neither side wishes to back down on the issue. As I understand it, her offer is dependent on the EU reciprocating those rights for Britons in Europe - so it doesn't seem like she is asking for anything more for British Citizens in Europe than she is willing to give to European Citizens in Britain.

It seems understandable, too, that she would seek to place a five year limit on the acquisition of "settled status". It has been known for over a year that the United Kingdom will be leaving the EU, and I guess she'd like to prevent a surge of EU migrants moving to Britain in the days and weeks before Brexit occurs in order to take advantage of a more generous deal than the one she has presented. Three million is a large number - she has to be very careful about how she handles this.

That said, it does seem as though the likelihood of an amicable divorce is becoming smaller by the day. It will be interesting to see what happens if Britain decides to simply walk out without a deal. It won't be great for either party, but Mrs May and Mr Davis are in an unenviable position in that they have to try to please different factions of the European Parliament and a whole host of other countries with their own interests. I imagine that the temptation is strong to walk out; or at least threaten to do so.


Don't know if it is a fair offer from Mrs. May, the EU don't seem to be thinking it is fair:

"The British Government proposes that – the day after Brexit – Europeans obtain the status of ‘third country nationals’. These nationals would get fewer rights in the UK than British citizens are offered throughout the EU.”
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tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:58 am

mmo wrote:
So, the UK offer is miles apart.


Exactly, nothing reasonable about the proposal, just more of the old "we want to keep the benefits, but not grand the same to the EU" they had right from the start.

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Thomas
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:09 am

tommy1808 wrote:
mmo wrote:
So, the UK offer is miles apart.


Exactly, nothing reasonable about the proposal, just more of the old "we want to keep the benefits, but not grand the same to the EU" they had right from the start.

Best regards
Thomas


That is what the voters wanted.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:12 am

seahawk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
mmo wrote:
So, the UK offer is miles apart.


Exactly, nothing reasonable about the proposal, just more of the old "we want to keep the benefits, but not grand the same to the EU" they had right from the start.

Best regards
Thomas


That is what the voters wanted.


So? Is that what the voters of the remaining 27 countries want? So what is your point?
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:14 am

May is just negotiating based on the demands of the voters. She can not make any other offers.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:19 am

mmo wrote:
As an Irish citizen living in the UK, I disagree!

First of all, we will now have to get IDs. Why? We will the only group who is required to get IDs now adding another layer of onerous paperwork by the Home Office. Secondly, a UK citizen will be able to to move to the EU with no income threshold while EU citizens will have to demonstrate 18,400 GBP/person. The British Citizens will have their rights protected by the EU Courts while the EU Citizens will be handled in the UK courts. In my case, my children and wife are non-EU Citizens, but as long as I am exercising my treaty rights, they have the right to live and work here. Nothing has been done to clarify their status.

The list goes on and on. The EU's offer was on the table before the UK played their cards. In a nutshell, the EU guaranteed all citizens, including UK nationals living in Europe, would be treated equally and lose no current rights. So, the UK offer is miles apart.


Will ID cards be rolled out to all immigrants? If so, then I don't see a problem. There might not actually be a concrete answer to that yet though, since everything seems to be "up in the air".

On your second point, I think it is inevitable that the UK will not be so generous towards EU citizens since one of the main selling points of Brexit was ending freedom of movement. So it seems like the two parties will never be able to agree. Essentially, it seems like the EU desires some form of 'Freedom of Movement-Lite', while the UK would like to have full control over the border.

It makes sense that anyone resident in Britain would be under the jurisdiction of British courts, since the UK will no longer be in the European Union. Similarly, if you were to move to the United States, then I'm afraid that European Courts would be unable to exercise any kind of jurisdiction over you - even if you do not become a US Citizen. Allowing a foreign court to exercise jurisdiction over a group of individuals in a sovereign nation is not something I can see working very well.

But then I'm not sure why the EU wishes to grant such extensive rights to British Citizens living in the EU. It would be quite understandable if they required them to obtain a visa.

Dutchy wrote:
Don't know if it is a fair offer from Mrs. May, the EU don't seem to be thinking it is fair:

"The British Government proposes that – the day after Brexit – Europeans obtain the status of ‘third country nationals’. These nationals would get fewer rights in the UK than British citizens are offered throughout the EU.”


I think I've mostly covered this in my reply to mmo. I think, at the root of all of this is that both parties need to accept that there will be changes to their relationship. Particularly, the EU should recognize that the UK will have the right to decide who enters the country. Under Mrs May's offer, EU citizens currently resident in the UK (and potentially future EU migrants) will be offered a privileged status. To frame the issue a different way - is this entirely fair to other immigrants living in the UK who haven't come from Europe? It is already much harder for them to enter the UK, and they have been afforded no special privileges.
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:20 am

seahawk wrote:
May is just negotiating based on the demands of the voters. She can not make any other offers.


Huh, what have I missed? The voters voted to leave the EU, where there any other votes which I missed which demanded the contents of the actual leave document?

Mrs. May's offer is putting the EU and UK on a collision course. That is what she wants, a hard Brexit and to blame the EU for it. Will be interesting to watch what her partner does and how this will work out for Northern Island. My prediction, she will be gone by this time next year.
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:26 am

KLDC10 wrote:
I think, at the root of all of this is that both parties need to accept that there will be changes to their relationship. Particularly, the EU should recognize that the UK will have the right to decide who enters the country.


Sure, but then you are putting the UK on route to a hard Brexit. The UK has options, but so does the EU. The UK citizens were falsely lured in a parallel world, where they could have all the perks of the EU, without the downside.
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KLDC10
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
I think, at the root of all of this is that both parties need to accept that there will be changes to their relationship. Particularly, the EU should recognize that the UK will have the right to decide who enters the country.


Sure, but then you are putting the UK on route to a hard Brexit. The UK has options, but so does the EU. The UK citizens were falsely lured in a parallel world, where they could have all the perks of the EU, without the downside.


It was my understanding that that was inevitable? Both major political parties back leaving the single market. Jeremy Corbyn recently fired a few members of his shadow cabinet for voting in favor of an amendment to the Queen's Speech which would have demanded membership of the single market. The amendment was defeated.
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Dutchy
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:34 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
I think, at the root of all of this is that both parties need to accept that there will be changes to their relationship. Particularly, the EU should recognize that the UK will have the right to decide who enters the country.


Sure, but then you are putting the UK on route to a hard Brexit. The UK has options, but so does the EU. The UK citizens were falsely lured in a parallel world, where they could have all the perks of the EU, without the downside.


It was my understanding that that was inevitable? Both major political parties back leaving the single market. Jeremy Corbyn recently fired a few members of his shadow cabinet for voting in favor of an amendment to the Queen's Speech which would have demanded membership of the single market. The amendment was defeated.


Then there are only the deforce papers to think about. Last time I read about it, Labour favored a much cozier relationship including keeping the single market. Things have changed then.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39665835
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
May is just negotiating based on the demands of the voters. She can not make any other offers.


Huh, what have I missed? The voters voted to leave the EU, where there any other votes which I missed which demanded the contents of the actual leave document?

Mrs. May's offer is putting the EU and UK on a collision course. That is what she wants, a hard Brexit and to blame the EU for it. Will be interesting to watch what her partner does and how this will work out for Northern Island. My prediction, she will be gone by this time next year.


Regaining full sovereignty was a key demand of the Brexit, which means full control of the borders and no jurisdiction for any EU court in the UK. May has clear mandate, the EU can now decide if they want to escalate things or not.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:13 pm

seahawk wrote:
Regaining full sovereignty was a key demand of the Brexit, which means full control of the borders and no jurisdiction for any EU court in the UK. May has clear mandate, the EU can now decide if they want to escalate things or not.


No, we weren't asked what flavour of Brexit we wanted. We were offered a black and white choice - in or out. The reality is, there are more shades of grey in this than a soft porn novel, but we were only asked if we wanted black or white.
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KLDC10
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Then there are only the deforce papers to think about. Last time I read about it, Labour favored a much cozier relationship including keeping the single market. Things have changed then.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39665835


I believe that things have either changed, or else the language used before the General Election was vague enough to not quite be a commitment to continued membership of the single market.

It would seem that Mr Corbyn has been something of a Eurosceptic for a while now - though the official party line during the referendum campaign was for 'Remain'.
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Regaining full sovereignty was a key demand of the Brexit, which means full control of the borders and no jurisdiction for any EU court in the UK. May has clear mandate, the EU can now decide if they want to escalate things or not.


No, we weren't asked what flavour of Brexit we wanted. We were offered a black and white choice - in or out. The reality is, there are more shades of grey in this than a soft porn novel, but we were only asked if we wanted black or white.


I would say the question was a clear in or out, with out meaning no more influence of the EU in any way. I have always been sceptical of a soft Brexit, because it always means you have to accept EU jurisdiction for some areas, which is clearly contrary to the premise of leaving the EU. Most of the British ideas voiced on the topic are just fantasies or the hope that the EU will give in, just like the recent proposals.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
That is what the voters wanted.


Even if that is what the voters wanted, and i highly doubt that, there also some 400+ Million voters that don´t want that.

KLDC10 wrote:
On your second point, I think it is inevitable that the UK will not be so generous towards EU citizens since one of the main selling points of Brexit was ending freedom of movement. So it seems like the two parties will never be able to agree. Essentially, it seems like the EU desires some form of 'Freedom of Movement-Lite', while the UK would like to have full control over the border.


Nonsense. The EU has a very clear position on this: either all 4 freedoms or none of them. If the UK wanted to control its own borders, they could just go with option 2. They want the borders open to their own citizens and as closed as possible to anybody else.

It makes sense that anyone resident in Britain would be under the jurisdiction of British courts, since the UK will no longer be in the European Union. Similarly, if you were to move to the United States, then I'm afraid that European Courts would be unable to exercise any kind of jurisdiction over you - even if you do not become a US Citizen. Allowing a foreign court to exercise jurisdiction over a group of individuals in a sovereign nation is not something I can see working very well.


The European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, aside of the fact that all EU members fall under its jurisdiction. So does the UK, Azerbaijan and Russia....

But then I'm not sure why the EU wishes to grant such extensive rights to British Citizens living in the EU. It would be quite understandable if they required them to obtain a visa.


Because we want the same for EU citizens in return. Or nothing.

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mmo
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:21 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
mmo wrote:
As an Irish citizen living in the UK, I disagree!

First of all, we will now have to get IDs. Why? We will the only group who is required to get IDs now adding another layer of onerous paperwork by the Home Office. Secondly, a UK citizen will be able to to move to the EU with no income threshold while EU citizens will have to demonstrate 18,400 GBP/person. The British Citizens will have their rights protected by the EU Courts while the EU Citizens will be handled in the UK courts. In my case, my children and wife are non-EU Citizens, but as long as I am exercising my treaty rights, they have the right to live and work here. Nothing has been done to clarify their status.

The list goes on and on. The EU's offer was on the table before the UK played their cards. In a nutshell, the EU guaranteed all citizens, including UK nationals living in Europe, would be treated equally and lose no current rights. So, the UK offer is miles apart.


Will ID cards be rolled out to all immigrants? If so, then I don't see a problem. There might not actually be a concrete answer to that yet though, since everything seems to be "up in the air".

On your second point, I think it is inevitable that the UK will not be so generous towards EU citizens since one of the main selling points of Brexit was ending freedom of movement. So it seems like the two parties will never be able to agree. Essentially, it seems like the EU desires some form of 'Freedom of Movement-Lite', while the UK would like to have full control over the border.

It makes sense that anyone resident in Britain would be under the jurisdiction of British courts, since the UK will no longer be in the European Union. Similarly, if you were to move to the United States, then I'm afraid that European Courts would be unable to exercise any kind of jurisdiction over you - even if you do not become a US Citizen. Allowing a foreign court to exercise jurisdiction over a group of individuals in a sovereign nation is not something I can see working very well.

But then I'm not sure why the EU wishes to grant such extensive rights to British Citizens living in the EU. It would be quite understandable if they required them to obtain a visa.

Dutchy wrote:
Don't know if it is a fair offer from Mrs. May, the EU don't seem to be thinking it is fair:

"The British Government proposes that – the day after Brexit – Europeans obtain the status of ‘third country nationals’. These nationals would get fewer rights in the UK than British citizens are offered throughout the EU.”


I think I've mostly covered this in my reply to mmo. I think, at the root of all of this is that both parties need to accept that there will be changes to their relationship. Particularly, the EU should recognize that the UK will have the right to decide who enters the country. Under Mrs May's offer, EU citizens currently resident in the UK (and potentially future EU migrants) will be offered a privileged status. To frame the issue a different way - is this entirely fair to other immigrants living in the UK who haven't come from Europe? It is already much harder for them to enter the UK, and they have been afforded no special privileges.


O course you do realize, the 3 million + UK citizens living in the EU will get shafted. The citizens who now have their health care covered by the UK BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE EU, who will lose that coverage. The impact on the NHS, especially after all the EU staff leave, will make the current waiting times look great!

Your comments about other immigrants who have come to the UK have nothing to do with the EU. i moved to the UK because of the EU. However, the entire UK relationship with the ROI has yet to be discussed. With or without the EU, i had the right to live and work in the UK. i was considered 'LANDED' as soon as I arrived. That treaty is still in effect, yet the UK has not even hinted what their intentions are.

You don't understand why the EU is offering such "extensive rights"? Are you for real!!! They are offering those because it's the right thing to do. It is very obvious.

Your answer demonstrates you don't know much about your own country. For instance, what about the right to vote? There is no talk about that at all. But, I am willing to bet you did not know I, currently have, as an Irish citizen, the right to vote. Do I retain that or do I lose that? The list goes on and on and every day it's getting longer and longer.

Someone asked about ID cards and other immigrant groups. Right now, EU Nationals living in the UK, Post Brexit would be the only group to have Id cards. We would become third class residents.

But, I really don't care anymore. The Brexit vote was the motivation I needed to move to Spain. Movers will be here in the beginning of August.
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c933103
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:01 pm

e, UK being UK? Not sure if it is an appporipate comment.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:39 pm

The pro Europeans didn't get the memo

EU people in UK = Migrants
UK People in EU = Expats

Sponger Migrants obviously don't deserve the same rights as professional Expats.

Hopefully some of the more intelligent readers will identify the source of above.
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LJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:08 pm

mmo wrote:
The impact on the NHS, especially after all the EU staff leave, will make the current waiting times look great!


Maybe they should leave as they know now how the UK government feels about them..... However, it will not only be the NHS. I work in the financial world and despite the Brexit my company decided to move some business to the UK. If May's proposal materialises, I think our company will revert the decision and move the business back to the mainland. However, my view is that the current stand-off is nothing more than negociation tactics.The question who will give what in return.
 
mmo
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:32 pm

LJ wrote:
mmo wrote:
The impact on the NHS, especially after all the EU staff leave, will make the current waiting times look great!


Maybe they should leave as they know now how the UK government feels about them..... However, it will not only be the NHS. I work in the financial world and despite the Brexit my company decided to move some business to the UK. If May's proposal materialises, I think our company will revert the decision and move the business back to the mainland. However, my view is that the current stand-off is nothing more than negociation tactics.The question who will give what in return.


But the UK has no leverage at all with the remaining 27 members of the EU. That's the problem.
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LJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:48 pm

mmo wrote:
LJ wrote:
mmo wrote:
The impact on the NHS, especially after all the EU staff leave, will make the current waiting times look great!


Maybe they should leave as they know now how the UK government feels about them..... However, it will not only be the NHS. I work in the financial world and despite the Brexit my company decided to move some business to the UK. If May's proposal materialises, I think our company will revert the decision and move the business back to the mainland. However, my view is that the current stand-off is nothing more than negociation tactics.The question who will give what in return.


But the UK has no leverage at all with the remaining 27 members of the EU. That's the problem.


That's why I think that May will give in (sell it in a way that the UK public won't know or blame it on the EU). In the end she'll make a simple P&L decision. How much do I loose (in terms of votes), how much can I gain by sticking to my policy.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:33 pm

So a couple questions, if the UK is an independent country who are leaving the jurisdiction of the EU, how are they going to have two sets of laws governing the persons living in country administered by two different courts?
Yes in the colonies under the old colonial laws we had two sets of citizens, the foreigners and the locals, however, we were all administered under one court system.
Now the UK after 2019 is supposed to have EU citizens living in the UK being governed by the EU Court of Justice versus any UK court and the rest of the citizens who will be governed by a UK court, obviously the rules and benefits will be different for both sets.
So does anyone see this as being the spark that will ultimately cause major disruption when the citizens see themselves as being second hand citizens in their own country?
How exactly does the EU expect this to work, if so many millions of folks voted out do they really believe it will help their cause if they demand that the UK allow non-UK courts to determine how persons live in the UK?
As for the UK citizens living in the EU, they are at the mercy of the EU laws and whatever contracts they negotiate with their employers or host countries, this is no different than all other countries in the world.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:17 pm

par13del wrote:
How exactly does the EU expect this to work, if so many millions of folks voted out do they really believe it will help their cause if they demand that the UK allow non-UK courts to determine how persons live in the UK?.


The EU expects the treaty, if there will be one, to be enforceable by a non-national court, and not being at the mercy of UK courts.
How the UK solves problem arising from *them* deciding to opt out of international court supervision and making their citizens 2nd class, which they would be because the UK government wants to care less about human rights than the EHRC would force them to, that is their problem.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:31 pm

par13del wrote:
So a couple questions, if the UK is an independent country who are leaving the jurisdiction of the EU, how are they going to have two sets of laws governing the persons living in country administered by two different courts?
Yes in the colonies under the old colonial laws we had two sets of citizens, the foreigners and the locals, however, we were all administered under one court system.
Now the UK after 2019 is supposed to have EU citizens living in the UK being governed by the EU Court of Justice versus any UK court and the rest of the citizens who will be governed by a UK court, obviously the rules and benefits will be different for both sets.
So does anyone see this as being the spark that will ultimately cause major disruption when the citizens see themselves as being second hand citizens in their own country?
How exactly does the EU expect this to work, if so many millions of folks voted out do they really believe it will help their cause if they demand that the UK allow non-UK courts to determine how persons live in the UK?
As for the UK citizens living in the EU, they are at the mercy of the EU laws and whatever contracts they negotiate with their employers or host countries, this is no different than all other countries in the world.


The offer was, within the EU, UK citizens are treated the same as all other EU citizens, the UK offered to give EU citizens a special second rate status as opposed to UK citizens.
And indeed the issue is if the UK falls under the jurisdiction of EU courts, so do which degree do they want to stay part of the internal single marked.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:47 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
The EU expects the treaty, if there will be one, to be enforceable by a non-national court, and not being at the mercy of UK courts.
How the UK solves problem arising from *them* deciding to opt out of international court supervision and making their citizens 2nd class, which they would be because the UK government wants to care less about human rights than the EHRC would force them to, that is their problem.

best regards
Thomas

As you say if there is a treaty, why would the UK as an independent developed country turn it protections over to a non-national court, even third world countries do not do this, yes I am still in shock that as an independent nation the Bahamas still uses the UK Privy Council as a court of final appeal.

As it relates to the UK citizens it is their problem and they have provided a template for how foreigners will be treated in their country, this is the same as any other country in the world.
On this site I have accepted the European's members notion that there is no United States of Europe but a union of individual countries, the UK has voted to leave the EU, which means that they are going to be like any other non-European country from Africa, North / South America, etc etc etc.
A negotiation is taking place on the relationship, the EU's position is clear, 4 Freedoms or nothing, so since the UK voted to leave the final solution is obvious.
The negotiation can only be about trade and how the EU / UK plans to give access to each others markets, sans the 4 freedoms.

Non-EU nationals are already treated differently in the UK from EU nationals, I would think that they would both be on par once the UK leaves, having three sets of rights / benefits makes no sense and will only cause more dis-function. As you noted, these are UK problems and they should be spending the next 18 months or so resolving this as an internal issue. Unfortunately, in 2019 hard decisions have to be made by citizens of the EU and the UK living and working in each jurisdiction, anyone on either side who expects things to remain the same are not being realistic.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:57 pm

To add to this, if the EU is or becomes a more/less advanced society than the UK then so be it, it then becomes incumbent on the people of the UK to decide whether they want to once again rejoin the EU, after all, they are the ones who voted to leave.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:04 pm

par13del wrote:
As you say if there is a treaty, why would the UK as an independent developed country turn it protections over to a non-national court, even third world countries do not do this, yes I am still in shock that as an independent nation the Bahamas still uses the UK Privy Council as a court of final appeal.


your premises is wrong, it is quite normal for countries to be under the jurisdiction of non-national courts, the ECHR is a prime example for it with 47 nations under its jurisdiction, or the ICJ with pretty much everyone under it.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:32 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

your premises is wrong, it is quite normal for countries to be under the jurisdiction of non-national courts, the ECHR is a prime example for it with 47 nations under its jurisdiction, or the ICJ with pretty much everyone under it.

best regards
Thomas

Yes, but not for initial cases, as I mentioned, the Bahamas still uses the UK Privy Council as its final court of appeal, but its guidance is interpreting local law in relation to our constitution. The EU is mandating that their citizens after 2019 continue with their current rights as if they were still in a EU country, that is the first stumbling block, since the UK want to "reclaim", it follows that the EU citizens would first fall under the UK courts / laws.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:37 pm

par13del wrote:
Yes, but not for initial cases, as I mentioned, the Bahamas still uses the UK Privy Council as its final court of appeal, but its guidance is interpreting local law in relation to our constitution. The EU is mandating that their citizens after 2019 continue with their current rights as if they were still in a EU country, that is the first stumbling block, since the UK want to "reclaim", it follows that the EU citizens would first fall under the UK courts / laws.


WTH? You can´t just go to a European Court instead of the national ones, with very few exceptions, you have to go through national courts first.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:45 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Yes, but not for initial cases, as I mentioned, the Bahamas still uses the UK Privy Council as its final court of appeal, but its guidance is interpreting local law in relation to our constitution. The EU is mandating that their citizens after 2019 continue with their current rights as if they were still in a EU country, that is the first stumbling block, since the UK want to "reclaim", it follows that the EU citizens would first fall under the UK courts / laws.


WTH? You can´t just go to a European Court instead of the national ones, with very few exceptions, you have to go through national courts first.

best regards
Thomas

In which case, the EU should have no problem with the UK government setting out what rights and benefits EU citizens will have after 2019, unless I misunderstood the issue, the EU already has a problem with those rights / benefits.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:21 pm

par13del wrote:
In which case, the EU should have no problem with the UK government setting out what rights and benefits EU citizens will have after 2019, unless I misunderstood the issue, the EU already has a problem with those rights / benefits.


You misunderstood. The EU has no problem with that.

However, it does have a problem if citizens can't go to the ECHR when the UK government violates their rights according to the European Convention on Human Rights, which the UK Is a signatory of and that has nothing to do with EU membership. It also has a problem if only UK courts get to decide weather or not the UK Is violating the terms of the treaty with regards to EU citizens in the UK. It is hard to expect those to be unbiased.
Of course the European courts would also probably be biased towards the EU position, but can be expected to be less so, since non-EU judges would be on the ECHR bench as well.
And is it really the EUs jobs to give preference to 60 million non-EU citizens over the rights of 400+ million EU citizens? Hardly so.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Yes, but not for initial cases, as I mentioned, the Bahamas still uses the UK Privy Council as its final court of appeal, but its guidance is interpreting local law in relation to our constitution. The EU is mandating that their citizens after 2019 continue with their current rights as if they were still in a EU country, that is the first stumbling block, since the UK want to "reclaim", it follows that the EU citizens would first fall under the UK courts / laws.


WTH? You can´t just go to a European Court instead of the national ones, with very few exceptions, you have to go through national courts first.

best regards
Thomas

The key issue the EU and the UK will have to resolve is: What neutral, independent court process will they decide to resolve any disputed cases under?

I think they need to essentially have to create something new that will be made up with equal representation of each side that will be invoked as a final arbiter for any disputed rulings (if they are to retain any "equal right" element for all UK/EU citizens. Because as an independent nation the UK will not be under the authority of the EU courts and likewise the EU will want similar, to not be subject to UK court rulings (that they disagree with) without recourse. Ultimately I think most cases will be resolved under the national courts without any real issue. The problem will more likely arise as a mechanism many plaintiffs or defendants employ to delay or reverse a ruling by engaging any authorized "higher authority" court.

Tugg
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:36 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
However, it does have a problem if citizens can't go to the ECHR when the UK government violates their rights according to the European Convention on Human Rights, which the UK Is a signatory of and that has nothing to do with EU membership. It also has a problem if only UK courts get to decide weather or not the UK Is violating the terms of the treaty with regards to EU citizens in the UK. It is hard to expect those to be unbiased.
Thomas

If the ECHR has nothing to do with EU membership, procedures should already be in place to access its services, one would expect that non-EU persons living in the UK have already used the ECHR, indeed it has already been mentioned on this site that those in the UK who claim the court is the reason why they cannot extradite terrorist like France or Germany are just wrong. Unless the UK is also withdrawing from the court why is this a part of Brexit?

tommy1808 wrote:
Of course the European courts would also probably be biased towards the EU position, but can be expected to be less so, since non-EU judges would be on the ECHR bench as well.
And is it really the EUs jobs to give preference to 60 million non-EU citizens over the rights of 400+ million EU citizens? Hardly so.
Best regards
Thomas

...the principle is the same for both sides, we should not expect the UK courts to give deference to the 400+ million EU citizens.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
However, it does have a problem if citizens can't go to the ECHR when the UK government violates their rights according to the European Convention on Human Rights, which the UK Is a signatory of and that has nothing to do with EU membership.


They might have a point - if and when the UK withdraws from the ECHR. Until then, it's just hot air.

tommy1808 wrote:
It also has a problem if only UK courts get to decide weather or not the UK Is violating the terms of the treaty with regards to EU citizens in the UK. It is hard to expect those to be unbiased.


Heaven forbid a sovereign nation's courts should make decisions on the laws of that country! Whatever next?

In what way do you believe the UK courts would be biased? UK courts have issued many decisions that go against the government. The job of the courts is to interpret the law and issue rulings. The UK courts are not the plaything of Parliament.
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:16 am

Isn't Russia also a part of both the ECHR's? The European Court of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights. If the EU and Russia can agree to and follow protocol's I would think the EU and the UK would be no different. Yes I know Russia and the ECHR have been at odds but the citizens still have access to and protection by the court.

Tugg
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:04 am

It looks more and more like a hard brexit will be the outcome.

The UK knows very well what the EU is. She participated in building the EU for over 40 years.

I have a feeling that a lot of Britons assume that what will be going on during the next 18 months are negotiations among equal partners. It's not so. The UK can propose, and the EU will approve or deny. There is no way 27 EU countries will agree to bend over their principles to please another country.

The UK has now come up with one proposal, which was denied. Now we wait for the next UK proposal.

It is very well established what close cooperation with the EU is like. It has worked for decades with Norway, Iceland, Switzerland. The UK knows how that works. The UK can propose the same for herself, maybe with minor, practical adjustments, and the EU will approve. Anything else will almost certainly pave the path to hard brexit.

EU citizens in the UK: Many will leave. After the pound has plummeted it isn't nearly as attractive to live and work there.

UK citizens in the EU: At least those living here in Denmark have either already got Danish citizenship, or they are in the queue.
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:52 am

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
However, it does have a problem if citizens can't go to the ECHR when the UK government violates their rights according to the European Convention on Human Rights, which the UK Is a signatory of and that has nothing to do with EU membership. It also has a problem if only UK courts get to decide weather or not the UK Is violating the terms of the treaty with regards to EU citizens in the UK. It is hard to expect those to be unbiased.
Thomas

If the ECHR has nothing to do with EU membership,


If?

scbriml wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
However, it does have a problem if citizens can't go to the ECHR when the UK government violates their rights according to the European Convention on Human Rights, which the UK Is a signatory of and that has nothing to do with EU membership.


They might have a point - if and when the UK withdraws from the ECHR. Until then, it's just hot air.


Yup, hot air that has to be cooled down before any treaty can be signed. After all the UK government is, by merely having that idea, on record saying they want to be able to violates human rights. That gives making sure they don´t some priority.

tommy1808 wrote:
It also has a problem if only UK courts get to decide weather or not the UK Is violating the terms of the treaty with regards to EU citizens in the UK. It is hard to expect those to be unbiased.


Heaven forbid a sovereign nation's courts should make decisions on the laws of that country! Whatever next?


How is a treaty between the EU and the UK magically UK law?

In what way do you believe the UK courts would be biased? UK courts have issued many decisions that go against the government. The job of the courts is to interpret the law and issue rulings. The UK courts are not the plaything of Parliament.


great. In that case there is no reason not to just remain under the European Court System, it represents more people after all.

prebennorholm wrote:
The UK knows very well what the EU is. She participated in building the EU for over 40 years. .


Not just helped, they agreed to every single decision and principle as a sovereign nation, since the EU is largely a consensus organisation.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:13 am

UK courts are only bound to UK laws after the Brexit. So a law that puts EU citizens at a disadvantage over UK citizens might be ratified in parliament and would be legal under British law, but not under EU law and maybe not in accordance with the Brexit treaty. In the end only the hard brexit makes sense. With EU immigrants and British expats becoming 3rd nation nationals and be treated as such.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:59 am

tommy1808 wrote:
After all the UK government is, by merely having that idea, on record saying they want to be able to violates human rights.


Hyperbole. much? Yeah, because we can't wait to start violating human rights. :rotfl:

tommy1808 wrote:
In that case there is no reason not to just remain under the European Court System


Not happening. Leaving the EU means leaving the EU courts and having UK courts apply UK law, not EU courts applying EU law.
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tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:43 am

scbriml wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
After all the UK government is, by merely having that idea, on record saying they want to be able to violates human rights.


Hyperbole. much? Yeah, because we can't wait to start violating human rights. :rotfl:


since the UKs human rights record is scary enough, they don´t get it on the balls by the ECHR all the time for no reason, that is exactly what your government can´t wait to start doing more, because without the ECHR they would have done more of it in the past.

tommy1808 wrote:
In that case there is no reason not to just remain under the European Court System


Not happening. Leaving the EU means leaving the EU courts and having UK courts apply UK law, not EU courts applying EU law.


So, hard Brexit, no problem. And you are still ignoring that a treaty between the UK and the EU would not be EU nor UK law, but an agreement reached between the two, under the EU law that the UK agreed to line by line. Keeping that in mind your argument just falls flat.

So, you want the EU to accept UK courts using UK laws, that the EU has no stake writing in, but don´t want EU courts apply EU laws that the UK took part in drafting and agreed to every single word and dot? Makes total sense, from a purely nationalistic point of view. Of course that way of thinking makes the UK a negotiation partner about as trust worth as Noth Korea. I am pretty sure every single nation you need to negotiate bi-lateral treaties with will take careful note how little the UK cares about past commitments and positions and act accordingly.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:55 am

Once the UK is out of the EU, there is no outside court that can really decide things. At the end of the day it will all be about diplomacy. It's already what's happening inside the EU most of the time. Diplomatic pressure is being applied right now on Poland, Hungary, despite these countries clearly violating written laws.

Outside courts are often specified in economic treaties though, and that's learning about that that made several free trade agreements very unpopular in France (the one with Canada, the one with the US). People don't want their economy to depend on some fiscal paradise's court decision.
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tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:06 am

Aesma wrote:
Once the UK is out of the EU, there is no outside court that can really decide things. At the end of the day it will all be about diplomacy. It's already what's happening inside the EU most of the time. Diplomatic pressure is being applied right now on Poland, Hungary, despite these countries clearly violating written laws.


Well, i´d assume the 80+ or so treaty violation processes against the UK may also play a role in their stubborness....

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
olle
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:33 am

The UK still dont get it;

European parlament has 3 major checks before accepting UK - Eu starting negotiating a trade deal. And this trade deal if similar to Eu Japan will not include services;

fail one of this 3 subjects and EU will not accept any divorce bill;

Ireland - UK border

handling EU citizens in UK transparent to UK citizen in EU

Settle accounts
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:09 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

since the UKs human rights record is scary enough,
Thomas


:lol:

You guys are funny.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

So, hard Brexit, no problem. And you are still ignoring that a treaty between the UK and the EU would not be EU nor UK law, but an agreement reached between the two, under the EU law that the UK agreed to line by line. Keeping that in mind your argument just falls flat.
best regards
Thomas

Which treaty is this, the one that the UK and EU are abrogating by implementing Article 50?

The UK is leaving the EU, which means it is leaving the jurisdiction of the EU including all agreements that they previously signed and agreed to line by line.
What is taking place now are negotiations on a new treaty, and if none is agreed, the UK will be working with the EU via already in place recognized treaties which the EU in their wisdom, still incorporates in their mandates, they just pass laws / rules / regulations defining which EU bodies now control negotiations.
Example, the EU now handles all negotiations for air traffic rights, but the individual rights that the countries negotiated previously were never abrogated.
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