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JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:16 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
Now if we could just get them to have only 1 building and not 2....


And yes everybody - except for the French - agrees on that, but it is still so minuscule.........

So I must conclude that your only aim is to discredit the EU and not to start a serious discussion in which you are going to contribute, well that's a shame, would like to hear your views on things that matter, no on these futile matters.


Estimates at £130 million a year.


Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:37 pm

JJJ wrote:
Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.

If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:42 pm

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.

If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.


I'm all for it, but if someone starts throwing numbers out of context so can I. I'd love to have apples to apples comparisons but I guess numbers will be hard to come by.

For one most countries nowadays have dedicated aircraft to fly VIPs around (Cam force one for the UK, or is it May force one now?), often buried within defence spending. The EU has no such resources.
 
Olddog
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:39 am

If you want a good laugh type into Google "they need us more than we need them" :)
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:19 am

JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Which is still less than Manchester City spent on defence this year.

If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.


I'm all for it, but if someone starts throwing numbers out of context so can I. I'd love to have apples to apples comparisons but I guess numbers will be hard to come by.

For one most countries nowadays have dedicated aircraft to fly VIPs around (Cam force one for the UK, or is it May force one now?), often buried within defence spending. The EU has no such resources.


Remember on here, when David Cameron became PM, his first visit to Washington....

Commercial BA flight, then off to New York on the Amtrak. A few people on here went crazy about no V.I.P or charter aircraft,
Yeah it was all spin for "austerity" and living within our means, but it certainly got people talking about it.
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
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seahawk
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:43 am

Why talk about money, when you should talk about freedom? The UK wants its freedom back and freedom is priceless.
 
JJJ
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:51 am

Dano1977 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
If I were to weigh in on this I would say why should it matter that they are spending less than Manchester City, equivalence only goes so far, my issue would be whether what they are presently doing is efficient and could be done better or more economically, this is a discussion for another thread.
Would make an interesting discussion if debated without emotion.


I'm all for it, but if someone starts throwing numbers out of context so can I. I'd love to have apples to apples comparisons but I guess numbers will be hard to come by.

For one most countries nowadays have dedicated aircraft to fly VIPs around (Cam force one for the UK, or is it May force one now?), often buried within defence spending. The EU has no such resources.


Remember on here, when David Cameron became PM, his first visit to Washington....

Commercial BA flight, then off to New York on the Amtrak. A few people on here went crazy about no V.I.P or charter aircraft,
Yeah it was all spin for "austerity" and living within our means, but it certainly got people talking about it.


Similarly it was all over the place when EU MPs flew around in Ryanair/Easyjet/whatever.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:21 am

seahawk wrote:
Why talk about money, when you should talk about freedom? The UK wants its freedom back and freedom is priceless.


The UK government disagrees, otherwise there would have been no need to promise a painfree Bexit.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:39 am

the delusion keeps going on ....

After finally somehow accepting that they can have all four freedoms of the common market or none of them, they now try to get temporary access to the common market, but not temporarily stay in the EU......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit#img-1

As if those two are different in any way ....

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:52 am

Agree, height of stupidity, why not spend their time and resources setting up their border controls, customs forms and procedures now versus waiting until after 2019? The cliff edge that business houses are talking about is them sitting down doing nothing during the 2 year period, versus putting the protocols in place and telling business leaders that this is how things will be done after they leave the EU.
I suspect most will view this as Remainers doing all they can to derail the will of the people via the referendum.
How much of a tariff is charged has nothing to do with setting up your border post, how many goods will be charged has nothing to do with having to hire and train customs officers, this whole putting the EU first seems backward, the EU is not going to be paying for putting those infrastructures in place after 2019, which all countries outside of the EU presently have and maintain.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:59 am

par13del wrote:
I suspect most will view this as Remainers doing all they can to derail the will of the people via the referendum..


hard Brexit is a clear minority position among the voters of that referendum. Colossal government screw up to give just 2 boxes for 3 options.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:15 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
hard Brexit is a clear minority position among the voters of that referendum. Colossal government screw up to give just 2 boxes for 3 options.

best regards
Thomas

Makes no difference to the EU, they have already stated the freedoms cannot be cherry picked, so what's the point of suggesting something to your public on your future relationship with the EU when the EU has already stated it is a non-starter?
The strategy may be to push the public to accept the Norway model, which if you mention it now would rile up the public, but by 2019 with the continued lack of progress, it may become more palatable, which once again, has nothing to do with the EU as nothing on that side is changing.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:31 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
hard Brexit is a clear minority position among the voters of that referendum. Colossal government screw up to give just 2 boxes for 3 options.

best regards
Thomas

Makes no difference to the EU, they have already stated the freedoms cannot be cherry picked, so what's the point of suggesting something to your public on your future relationship with the EU when the EU has already stated it is a non-starter?


the EU did never, in any way, exclude the UK from future access to the common market.

The strategy may be to push the public to accept the Norway model, which if you mention it now would rile up the public, but by 2019 with the continued lack of progress, it may become more palatable, which once again, has nothing to do with the EU as nothing on that side is changing.


Which is what the majority of the voters would accept, although their majority (remain) only grudgingly, but surely preferred over a hard Brexit they voted specifically against and is exactly what the rest of them wanted.

edit:
Image

Hard Brexit is a governement ignoring the citizen to a degree rarely ever seen in a democracy.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:03 pm

Prior to the referendum there was no Hard and Soft Brexit, just Brexit, the difference is a construct after the vote.
The EU position has been the same throughout, the freedoms are not up for discussion, so regardless of how you state it, the EU will give the UK access to the common market if they accept the freedoms, the UK voters have stated that they want to take back control of their country, there was no vote about access to this versus access to that etc etc etc.
Funny how the Brexit graph does not reflect the vote, so is it a case of the government not heeding the wishes of the people or catering to the special interest?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:31 pm

par13del wrote:
Prior to the referendum there was no Hard and Soft Brexit, just Brexit, the difference is a construct after the vote.


The words have probably not been used, but of course different exit models have been discussed.

The EU position has been the same throughout, the freedoms are not up for discussion, so regardless of how you state it, the EU will give the UK access to the common market if they accept the freedoms,


There is no such thing as "accept the freedoms", those freedoms are the common market and the UK is just as welcome outside the EU as it is inside.

the UK voters have stated that they want to take back control of their country, there was no vote about access to this versus access to that etc etc etc.


The UK voters have stated that they want to remain and/or to leave. Those voters in favor of the Norwegian model for sure didn´t want to "take back control of their country" in the sense you seem to imply, they obviously wanted all those common market rules to remain.

Funny how the Brexit graph does not reflect the vote, so is it a case of the government not heeding the wishes of the people or catering to the special interest?


Since about 60% (plus arguably 18%) don´t want to leave the common market it may be both, but sure as hell the government is ignoring the voters wishes. They just conveniently ignore that "leave" does not, not even by a long shot, mean hard Brexit. There is no reason not have a referendum on hard or soft brexit, since it doesn´t touch the question of cancelling the brexit, but they are not doing that, because they know perfectly well that "Hard Brexit" would die a quick and hard death in such a referendum. I wonder whos special interests they have so deeply at heart.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:51 pm

Give it time and the EU will cave in on freedom of movement.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:21 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Give it time and the EU will cave in on freedom of movement.


So, give up freedom of movement for 400+ million people, so 60+ million people can say "Yes, we own our borders"?

Not going to happen.... simply because there is absolutely no way to justify that.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
the delusion keeps going on ....

After finally somehow accepting that they can have all four freedoms of the common market or none of them, they now try to get temporary access to the common market, but not temporarily stay in the EU......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit#img-1

As if those two are different in any way ....

best regards
Thomas


And you choose the most anti brexit left wing paper going...
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ElPistolero
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:33 pm

Dano1977 wrote:

And you choose the most anti brexit left wing paper going...


Which parts of this story are untrue or incorrect?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:41 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
And you choose the most anti brexit left wing paper going...


Well, I didn't. The London times just has the article behind a paywall and hence you got a link from the 2nd UK newspaper I could think of.

I also have to agree with the following question:

ElPistolero wrote:
Which parts of this story are untrue or incorrect?


Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:01 pm

par13del wrote:
In my opinion they would be better off spending that money preparing the country for WTO rules versus giving sure money to the EU when there is no certainty that they will get that past parliament and the EU would already list it as a certainty with no sure way of having all members agree in any timely fashion.
Money has to be spent on securing the borders such as updating facilities, hiring and training staff, those have to be done in any event as it does not appear as if the country will take a Norway style model.
Where I fault the May government is they are putting the country specific items which they have to do on hold pending EU negotiations as if the EU is somehow going to take care of them, are they even designing new government forms, license decals, UK versions of EU documents - stands to reason the EU will not provide for free and when they change....- etc etc etc, there are many things an independent country has to do which for some has to duplicate what the EU does, its what independence is all about.


The EU could then probably sue the UK over the money, or otherwise retaliate nastily.
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UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Give it time and the EU will cave in on freedom of movement.


So, give up freedom of movement for 400+ million people, so 60+ million people can say "Yes, we own our borders"?

Not going to happen.... simply because there is absolutely no way to justify that.

best regards
Thomas


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40491497
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -fd3dwp7s3

Not to mention how Poland and Hungary feel about free movement. In fact, didn't the Paris attackers slip seamlessly between Belgium and France due to their being no border controls?
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:31 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:


LoL, you have to be kidding bringing that argument xD And no, the 4 funding principles will stay, even with the extreme right in Poland and Hungary shouting like crazy against freedoms (google "Poland Judicial Reform" or "Hungary education") to see how crazy/out of the world those regimes are, and how hard the EU is hitting them because of jumping into dictatorial scenarios. One setting up a law to allow the president to choose every single judge personally, and the others making military training mandatory in school. And more and more. Jesus Christ....

Seriously, do you have any idea what you are talking about apart from giving empty non sense statements full of self affirmation?

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
In fact, didn't the Paris attackers slip seamlessly between Belgium and France due to their being no border controls?


So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?

I mean.... are you talking seriously? :banghead:
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:11 am

Aesma wrote:

The EU could then probably sue the UK over the money, or otherwise retaliate nastily.

Which would be ideal for both sides, right now the number is political versus what the accountants and legal folks calculate, which is what would have to be presented in court. The nasty part is already present in the numbers, and yes it could get nastier.

To be clear, what I was saying was that rather than the UK offering up a sum they should start spending that money preparing for for 2019, the UK will not set the amount of the divorce bill, the EU will and then it will either be accepted or negotiated, if rejected it will end up in court.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:40 am

Jayafe wrote:
So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?


But New York and New Jersey are in the same country. Brussels and Paris aren't.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:06 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?


But New York and New Jersey are in the same country. Brussels and Paris aren't.


Since no one is getting into Poland that can't get a VISA to France directly that is relevant how exactly?

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:59 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
So if a terrorist goes from NJ to NY not being detected is because of the lack of border controls, and customs and a frontier between states should be brought back?


But New York and New Jersey are in the same country. Brussels and Paris aren't.


From a borders point of view (and many others), as said before a visa is not required and there is freedom of movement, so they indeed are the "same" country when talking about frontiers. What you would call "classic frontiers" within the EU are situated in the external border, so indeed the analogy is correct. United States / European Union....see the similarities?

What about some geography and politics lectures and readings before coming to save the world?
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:02 pm

What was wrong with border between member states?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:07 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What was wrong with border between member states?


as someone that is old enough to remembers when they did exist and someone that crosses them over 100 times per year i would say just about everything.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:37 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What was wrong with border between member states?


as someone that is old enough to remembers when they did exist and someone that crosses them over 100 times per year i would say just about everything.

best regards
Thomas


Correct. And those of us who were unfortunate enough growing up on the wrong side of the iron curtain even remember all kinds of obstacles designed to prevent you from crossing.

It seems literally unbelievable that I'm discovering some beautiful places in north eastern Hungary now, during family visits from Canada. These places are literally few kilometers from the place I used to live in Slovakia. But crossing the border was so annoying, even after the fall of commie regimes. Now its a completely different story.
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Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:51 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
What was wrong with border between member states?


:boggled: :banghead:

No, you definitely have no idea what you are talking about :white:
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:01 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
[Now its a completely different story.


Exactly! What many people don´t understand about the Schengen Agreement, not that there is nothing to criticize about it, is that it actually leads to less people coming into the Schengen member states, not more. Because, like most stuff going on in the EU, that is a consensus organisation. Meaning that the rules to obtain a VISA are more or less the harshest any of the members states pushes for. It is not like the UK, controlling its own borders, had any less non-EU immigrants as the Schengen area.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:01 pm

As a kid I crossed borders several times a year, but only on vacation. It wasn't a huge deal but it took some time. Now you don't even notice the frontier. Several of my family members live on either side of the Italian frontier, and work on the other, go see each other every other day, etc. If there were controls it would be a massive hindrance.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
As a kid I crossed borders several times a year, but only on vacation. It wasn't a huge deal but it took some time. Now you don't even notice the frontier. Several of my family members live on either side of the Italian frontier, and work on the other, go see each other every other day, etc. If there were controls it would be a massive hindrance.


Remember driving to Italy for vacation in 1997 and 1998. In 1997 there was a huge line-up on the highway, as we had to slow down for the immigration officers to wave us through. In 1998, we just slowed down when driving through the empty border station. Next year the border station was gone.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
[Now its a completely different story.


Exactly! What many people don´t understand about the Schengen Agreement, not that there is nothing to criticize about it, is that it actually leads to less people coming into the Schengen member states, not more. Because, like most stuff going on in the EU, that is a consensus organisation. Meaning that the rules to obtain a VISA are more or less the harshest any of the members states pushes for. It is not like the UK, controlling its own borders, had any less non-EU immigrants as the Schengen area.

best regards
Thomas


Hmmm, aren't the not wanted non-EU immigrants actually kept in the Schengen area so they won't even reach the UK shores? Or is this gone now?
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tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:36 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
non-EU immigrants actually kept in the Schengen area so they won't even reach the UK shores? Or is this gone now?


That is the Dublin Agreement and about as much to do with Schengen as Immigrants with Refugees: nothing.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Jayafe
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:12 pm

Note that not Ireland or the UK are part of the Schengen area already........
 
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par13del
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:40 pm

The Open Border via the Schengen "agreement" is a benefit that EU members can avail themselves of by signing up, the UK chose not to for whatever reason. Citizens of countries outside of the EU can apply for VISAS and once in country enjoy the same benefit during their stay.
I suspect Ireland did not sign up because the UK chose not to and the special relationship that existed between both entities on the island of Ireland and the UK, hence I'm somewhat puzzled why the Irish border has become such a big issue from the EU side.
I am almost at the stage of saying let's wait until 2019 when the serious negotiation start a week before the deadline.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:28 pm

par13del wrote:
I suspect Ireland did not sign up because the UK chose not to and the special relationship that existed between both entities on the island of Ireland and the UK, hence I'm somewhat puzzled why the Irish border has become such a big issue from the EU side.


In one word? Customs.

Best regards
Thomaa
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Re: Theresa May's plans for EU citizens branded a 'damp squib' by the European Parliament

Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
I suspect Ireland did not sign up because the UK chose not to and the special relationship that existed between both entities on the island of Ireland and the UK, hence I'm somewhat puzzled why the Irish border has become such a big issue from the EU side.


In one word? Customs.

Best regards
Thomaa


Not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area (aka mini-UK-islander-Schengen)

Ireland had to choose free movement with the EU, or with the UK (as these didn't sign Schengen). We all know now that if they have to choose again, won't back UK. This was part of the reasons why Schengen is not mandatory.

The Irish border IS actually a major issue, as if what Brexiters suggest gets implemented, what they ask for, is basically a backdoor for good ands capitals, with no control at all, basically a wall in the east keeping the cake and a hole in the west eating it, and restrictions on people movement applied on the Irish side instead of the British one (less responsibility, less expenses). Ireland just need to sign Schengen to blow the whole proposal up.

Fence is coming....
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