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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:40 am

So seems that Trump care won't be in place anytime soon. 4 Republican senators are against this bill.


Trump's tweet:

Republicans should just REPEAL failing ObamaCare now & work on a new Healthcare Plan that will start from a clean slate. Dems will join in!
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:25 am

Dutchy wrote:
So seems that Trump care won't be in place anytime soon. 4 Republican senators are against this bill.


Trump's tweet:

Republicans should just REPEAL failing ObamaCare now & work on a new Healthcare Plan that will start from a clean slate. Dems will join in!


The 2016 114th CONGRESS HR 132 Repeal Obamacare Bill went like this:

To repeal the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. Short title.

This Act may be cited as the “ObamaCare Repeal Act”.

SEC. 2. Repeal of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010.

(a) Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.—Effective as of the enactment of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Law 111–148), such Act is repealed, and the provisions of law amended or repealed by such Act are restored or revived as if such Act had not been enacted.

(b) Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010.—Effective as of the enactment of the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (Public Law 111–152), such Act is repealed, and the provisions of law amended or repealed by such Act are restored or revived as if such Act had not been enacted.

----------------------------------------
There was no "2-year" wait as far as I can see with the 2016 Bill. We're either smarter or dumber now, if leaving Obamacare in place for another 2 years is the road the Senate and HR now want to take, now that a different Administration is in office.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
So seems that Trump care won't be in place anytime soon. 4 Republican senators are against this bill.


Trump's tweet:

Republicans should just REPEAL failing ObamaCare now & work on a new Healthcare Plan that will start from a clean slate. Dems will join in!

Meh...the right will continue to do what they always do, sabotage it and then say "see! it doesn't work!" The only question mark is what follows the inevitable (sabotaged) implosion.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:35 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So seems that Trump care won't be in place anytime soon. 4 Republican senators are against this bill.


Trump's tweet:

Republicans should just REPEAL failing ObamaCare now & work on a new Healthcare Plan that will start from a clean slate. Dems will join in!

Meh...the right will continue to do what they always do, sabotage it and then say "see! it doesn't work!" The only question mark is what follows the inevitable (sabotaged) implosion.


The right is the power in residence, so whom are they going to blame if ACA is going to implode? Hillary Clinton, because she failed to win the election?
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tommy1808
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The right is the power in residence, so whom are they going to blame if ACA is going to implode?


The Democrats of course.

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Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
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alberchico
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:44 pm

The big fear now is that they'll quietly ramp up their efforts to undermine and sabotage Obamacare so that it fails on its own and the public will support a complete repeal without replacement.

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/22/how-rep ... e_partner/
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:56 pm

alberchico wrote:
The big fear now is that they'll quietly ramp up their efforts to undermine and sabotage Obamacare so that it fails on its own and the public will support a complete repeal without replacement.

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/22/how-rep ... e_partner/


Interesting article, thanks for sharing. Can anyone tell if this is true or not? Why didn't the Democrats make a point of this in October? This was and is a great point to make.

How the Republicans killed off the small insurance companies and left the market place to big insurers, and the reason why Obama care doesn't work.

Politically brilliant, well done Marco Rubio, socially a disaster.
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:56 pm

alberchico wrote:
The big fear now is that they'll quietly ramp up their efforts to undermine and sabotage Obamacare so that it fails on its own and the public will support a complete repeal without replacement.

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/22/how-rep ... e_partner/


It's not a fear of anyone with common sense. It is the stupidity of the Republican party. Any failure in Healthcare is now theirs to own as they have gone off on this Repeal and Replace bullsh** for 7 years.
As seen in the article funding to deal with issues was taken away by the GOP, and Trump's own executive orders are meant to weaken the bill.

Trump's last 5 tweets are nothing but contradictory half true whining from an ignorant leader.


If the Republican party was interested in actually leading, they would work across the aisle with the democrats to shore up the existing law instead of trying to wreck it and rebuild it with something that is worse.
Mitch McConnell, and Paul Ryan are incompetent as leaders of their legislative branches, and Trump is ineffective in presenting and defending a unifying vision, as he has none.
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wingman
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:39 pm

If the GOP lets the ACA fail it'll be a Democratic House and Senate that resurrect it. The GOP will pay dearly for ripping healthcare away from 20MM Americans. I'd wager a majority of those 20MM bought Trump's bullshit hook, line and sinker last November and they will place the blame for the ACA's failure squarely on his and his party's shoulders. The polls prove that out and unlike the election they are 20X beyond the margin of error. Every single voting group in the US now supports government directed healthcare for the less fortunate..except right wing old white men in the 1% maybe.

Imagine both parties coming together to fix the cost side of healthcare..what they should be doing but they'd rather cater to the idiotic hard core cbases on each side. Bottom line though, the GOP will rue the day they let this program collapse because it'll expose their bullshit commitment to the elderly and poor once and for all. And a country that doesn't give a shit about its own isn't a country to be proud of.
 
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:21 pm

If anyone needs any more proof that the GOP is unfit to govern, this Wealth Care fiasco is the final nail in the coffin. They have the House, Senate and Presidency, and they still can't come up with a decent plan. The problem is that so many Republicans can't wait to screw over the poor and middle class at every turn, and they try to hide that fact. It isn't just in Washington; witness Missouri rolling back the minimum wage. The GOP takes an almost masochistic glee in hurting the poor and middle class, and it's catching up with them.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:33 pm

wingman wrote:
If the GOP lets the ACA fail it'll be a Democratic House and Senate that resurrect it. The GOP will pay dearly for ripping healthcare away from 20MM Americans.


Really? Does that logic work in reverse? How many people lost their health insurance due to ACA? You never seem to hear about that one. My parents, both long-retired, lost their health insurance (which they had maintained since the early 80s) due to ACA - right before my mother suffered a stroke, and then was diagnosed with cancer, and my father developed serious back issues that will require surgery. Their out of pocket costs have been ruinous. Thanks Obamacare!

And how about the growing number of states and counties where the number of ACA-compliant health insurance options is only one, or in 45 counties, none whatsoever (that number is a couple of months old - I understand it is growing very fast).

Admit it - Obamacare was a failure. If the Dems would just admit it, maybe a deal can be worked out. But as long as they stick their heads in the sand and pretend that ACA is perfect, nothing can get done thanks to Senate rules.
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:17 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
wingman wrote:
If the GOP lets the ACA fail it'll be a Democratic House and Senate that resurrect it. The GOP will pay dearly for ripping healthcare away from 20MM Americans.


Really? Does that logic work in reverse? How many people lost their health insurance due to ACA? You never seem to hear about that one. My parents, both long-retired, lost their health insurance (which they had maintained since the early 80s) due to ACA - right before my mother suffered a stroke, and then was diagnosed with cancer, and my father developed serious back issues that will require surgery. Their out of pocket costs have been ruinous. Thanks Obamacare!

And how about the growing number of states and counties where the number of ACA-compliant health insurance options is only one, or in 45 counties, none whatsoever (that number is a couple of months old - I understand it is growing very fast).

Admit it - Obamacare was a failure. If the Dems would just admit it, maybe a deal can be worked out. But as long as they stick their heads in the sand and pretend that ACA is perfect, nothing can get done thanks to Senate rules.


I call bullsh**, or your parents are incapable of qualifying for the subsidies available under the ACA. for those on restricted incomes, due to their available retirement income.

Obamacare is a success, and the only reason it currently struggles is the inability of the ignorant partisans in the GOP that can't bring themselves to work across the aisle with the Democrats to shore up the bill.

The GOP has been feeding so much crap to their base, that the base can't even recognize the truth of why the ACA was needed in the first place ( costs were spiraling out of control), The GOP is also ignoring the fact that more people now have insurance than would have had it without the ACA. The next step is to take actions to reduce the cost to the people obtaining insurance, and that does not include gutting the ACA . It involves looking at the policies that are allowing costs to spiral out of control within hospitals, pharmaceuticals, medical supplies, and malpractice.

Unfortunately after 7 years, the GOP base has Stockholm syndrome for the Repeal/Replace lie.
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
I call bullsh**, or your parents are incapable of qualifying for the subsidies available under the ACA. for those on restricted incomes, due to their available retirement income.

As do I. If his parents are indeed still alive, they're old enough to be on Medicare, so one has to wonder why they were not on Medicare, but rather on private insurance.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
But as long as they stick their heads in the sand and pretend that ACA is perfect, nothing can get done thanks to Senate rules.

Maybe you missed the many Democrats (including Clinton) admitting that the law is far from perfect and can and needs to be fixed/improved on. But don't let facts get in the way of a good bashing.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:01 pm

casinterest wrote:
I call bullsh**, or your parents are incapable of qualifying for the subsidies available under the ACA. for those on restricted incomes, due to their available retirement income.


1) Why the hell should they need to qualify for subsidies? Subsidies/welfare/medicaid should be for the bottom 10% or so of the population who are unable to look after themselves. The fact that you think that everyone should get them is a sign of how sick our society has become.

2) They do not qualify for any subsidies, because they don't live in this country. But my father worked for 40 years with a major US engineering firm which included a "Cadillac Plan" medical insurance and benefits for both him and my mother, including after retirement, and valid wherever they live in the world. About 3 years ago, my parents got a letter from his former employer that due to ACA restrictions and costs, they were cancelling their medical insurance - for which he had worked for and planned on for decades. Since they live in Switzerland, they are eligible for Swiss LaMAL basic insurance, but no insurer will touch them for all the additional coverage that they used to have.

While such generous pensions and medical benefits for retirees may be rather old fashioned, how many millions of retirees today planned on those benefits being there, and are told, "sorry, you're on your own"? Is that right?

And let's not forget that for simple families here, All those I know have seen their premiums triple over the past 5 or 6 years, while their deductibles have gone from maybe $1000 to $5000 per year. Do you really, REALLY think that this is a sign of success?
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:21 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I call bullsh**, or your parents are incapable of qualifying for the subsidies available under the ACA. for those on restricted incomes, due to their available retirement income.


Dreadnought wrote:
1) Why the hell should they need to qualify for subsidies? Subsidies/welfare/medicaid should be for the bottom 10% or so of the population who are unable to look after themselves. The fact that you think that everyone should get them is a sign of how sick our society has become.

Where did you pull the 10% number? The bottom FORTY percent have .2% of the wealth in the US.

We have to subsidize doe to the upper wealth members controlling so much of the wealth in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in ... ted_States


They aren't in the US, so they blame the ACA for their loss of insurance? They would have lost their Cadillac plan even without the ACA. The costs were spiraling. Note that his letter said costs. Their case is also one where they chose to retire outside of the US. Theirs is an issue where the private company decided to not honor their Cadillac plan. Don't blame the ACA for that issue.

[/quote]

It is a success, because without the ACA, those families would have seen the increase anyway as it is the costs of medical care that are out of control. Not the fact that we have more insured.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:50 pm

casinterest wrote:
Where did you pull the 10% number? The bottom FORTY percent have .2% of the wealth in the US.


Why are you talking about wealth? The amount in your savings account or the value of your home has little to do with whether you can afford monthly insurance payments. BTW the bottom 40% earns about 8% of total wages. Duh. If they earned 40% they wouldn't be bottom 40, right. Pointless.

casinterest wrote:
We have to subsidize doe to the upper wealth members controlling so much of the wealth in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in ... ted_States


Put down your Karl Marx books and get a real education. The fact that someone is rich does not mean that someone else is poor - or that he somehow is rich at the expense of someone else.

And again, you are conflating wealth with earnings.

casinterest wrote:
They aren't in the US, so they blame the ACA for their loss of insurance? They would have lost their Cadillac plan even without the ACA. The costs were spiraling. Note that his letter said costs. Their case is also one where they chose to retire outside of the US. Theirs is an issue where the private company decided to not honor their Cadillac plan. Don't blame the ACA for that issue.


He worked in the US for that company the whole time. That decision did not come out of the blue. There were discussions, shareholders meetings, roundtables etc held by the company with retirees and management, which (my dad attended) over a period of a couple of years deciding what to do with retiree benefit programs. It was 100% clear that ACA was the root cause of their plan becoming unsustainable - for the first time in that company's 150 year history, they were going to have to renig on retiree benefits that were promised.

casinterest wrote:
It is a success, because without the ACA, those families would have seen the increase anyway as it is the costs of medical care that are out of control. Not the fact that we have more insured.


Pure supposition on your part. ACA mandated a massive increase in required coverage. Basic economic laws such as third party payer effects require that result in a massive cost increase that would otherwise not have happened. Yes, costs were increasing before ACA, but deductibles were lower, and I think the scope of the increases smaller.
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:54 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Where did you pull the 10% number? The bottom FORTY percent have .2% of the wealth in the US.


Why are you talking about wealth? The amount in your savings account or the value of your home has little to do with whether you can afford monthly insurance payments. BTW the bottom 40% earns about 8% of total wages. Duh. If they earned 40% they wouldn't be bottom 40, right. Pointless.

If they earned 40%, they wouldn't need subsidies (Duh). Wealth and earnings have a somewhat attached relationship. Sure you don;t have to earn to be wealthy, and you don't have to earn a lot and not be wealthy, but there is a correlation.


Dreadnought wrote:
casinterest wrote:
We have to subsidize doe to the upper wealth members controlling so much of the wealth in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in ... ted_States


Put down your Karl Marx books and get a real education. The fact that someone is rich does not mean that someone else is poor - or that he somehow is rich at the expense of someone else.

And again, you are conflating wealth with earnings.

Your Karl Marx quotes only serve to highlight your complete ignorance and indifference to the fact that their has to be a balance in how health insurance is paid for. Health insurance is not a want, it is a need, unlike car, life , or home insurance.

Health insurance is of tantamount importance to the well being of the US economy, and as such, since the wealthy and their ability to pay are the driving factors in the exorbitant costs of the insureance, so too should be their ability to subsidize those that are left behind in these costs battles. Ultimately, the need for expensive health insurance is inversely related to the ability to pay for it.
Dreadnought wrote:
casinterest wrote:
They aren't in the US, so they blame the ACA for their loss of insurance? They would have lost their Cadillac plan even without the ACA. The costs were spiraling. Note that his letter said costs. Their case is also one where they chose to retire outside of the US. Theirs is an issue where the private company decided to not honor their Cadillac plan. Don't blame the ACA for that issue.


He worked in the US for that company the whole time. That decision did not come out of the blue. There were discussions, shareholders meetings, roundtables etc held by the company with retirees and management, which (my dad attended) over a period of a couple of years deciding what to do with retiree benefit programs. It was 100% clear that ACA was the root cause of their plan becoming unsustainable - for the first time in that company's 150 year history, they were going to have to renig on retiree benefits that were promised.


A lot of companies did the same thing, and once again you , like most GOP brainwash members, fail to remember that costs were skyrocketing prior to the ACA.

Dreadnought wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It is a success, because without the ACA, those families would have seen the increase anyway as it is the costs of medical care that are out of control. Not the fact that we have more insured.


Pure supposition on your part. ACA mandated a massive increase in required coverage. Basic economic laws such as third party payer effects require that result in a massive cost increase that would otherwise not have happened. Yes, costs were increasing before ACA, but deductibles were lower, and I think the scope of the increases smaller.


Deductables were going up rapidly, due to the expanding loss of health insurance coverage within the system. This was an issue which the ACA tried to address. Unlike your father's company, companies such as Enron, GM, and multiple others completely abandoned their health insurance and beneifits coverage during the Recession of 2007-2008.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
Health insurance is not a want, it is a need, unlike car, life , or home insurance.

Health Care is a NEED. How do you WANT to pay for that?

a. Out of pocket (cash or credit)
b. Insurance
c. Taxes (with credits for those with approved insurance plans)

My preference is for (c.). Uniform coverage nationwide.

Life insurance is optional based on desire.

Auto and Homeowners' insurance is most often a requirement (need) of motor vehicle law and mortgage contract.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:50 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
But as long as they stick their heads in the sand and pretend that ACA is perfect, nothing can get done thanks to Senate rules.

Maybe you missed the many Democrats (including Clinton) admitting that the law is far from perfect and can and needs to be fixed/improved on. But don't let facts get in the way of a good bashing.


Right, entering it's 70th year, the NHS is still striving to "fix" it.
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:06 pm

casinterest wrote:
[quote= Dreadnought]1) Why the hell should they need to qualify for subsidies? Subsidies/welfare/medicaid should be for the bottom 10% or so of the population who are unable to look after themselves. The fact that you think that everyone should get them is a sign of how sick our society has become.

Where did you pull the 10% number? The bottom FORTY percent have .2% of the wealth in the US. [/quote]

Made me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM


In a way Dreadnought is right, society is quite sick if lots of people are depended on the government subsidies or welfare, that means that people get paid too little and the middle class is decreasing because of the level of income needed to live a normal middle-class lifestyle has become too expensive.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:53 pm

Dutchy wrote:
In a way Dreadnought is right, society is quite sick if lots of people are depended on the government subsidies or welfare, that means that people get paid too little and the middle class is decreasing because of the level of income needed to live a normal middle-class lifestyle has become too expensive.


And the way to do that in any developed country is to control your borders and limit the supply (and thus oversupply) of low-skill labor in the country. When you allow massive immigration of people willing to work for peanuts, of course wages will stagnate especially at the lower levels. C'mon guys it's not rocket science, this is basic high school economics.
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:00 am

Dreadnought wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In a way Dreadnought is right, society is quite sick if lots of people are depended on the government subsidies or welfare, that means that people get paid too little and the middle class is decreasing because of the level of income needed to live a normal middle-class lifestyle has become too expensive.


And the way to do that in any developed country is to control your borders and limit the supply (and thus oversupply) of low-skill labor in the country. When you allow massive immigration of people willing to work for peanuts, of course wages will stagnate especially at the lower levels. C'mon guys it's not rocket science, this is basic high school economics.


Nope. You missed some college courses in economics.
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seb146
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:21 am

Dreadnought wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In a way Dreadnought is right, society is quite sick if lots of people are depended on the government subsidies or welfare, that means that people get paid too little and the middle class is decreasing because of the level of income needed to live a normal middle-class lifestyle has become too expensive.


And the way to do that in any developed country is to control your borders and limit the supply (and thus oversupply) of low-skill labor in the country. When you allow massive immigration of people willing to work for peanuts, of course wages will stagnate especially at the lower levels. C'mon guys it's not rocket science, this is basic high school economics.


Who works those low wage jobs the middle class won't do? If citizens like you and I still need to depend on government for assistance, that means wages are far too low. If you think a family can survive and flourish in the United States on $500 a month, you really have no idea what the problem is.
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seb146
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:23 am

Republicans can't even repeal Obamacare

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/18/us/p ... later.html

Of course they were going to repeal Obamacare and replace it with nothing. They can't even unite on this.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:57 am

seb146 wrote:
Who works those low wage jobs the middle class won't do? If citizens like you and I still need to depend on government for assistance, that means wages are far too low. If you think a family can survive and flourish in the United States on $500 a month, you really have no idea what the problem is.


Oversupply is the problem. Eliminate that problem wages will increase out of necessity. The whole "immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do" is a con, a farce, a fraud pushed on you by leftist politicians and their ideological associates, in cahoots with big business. Yes, Americans won't work tobacco fields for $5 per hour. But there is a price level at which they will. Maybe $15, or $25. Oversupplying the labor market is a means for big business to ensure that wages stay artificially low.

Dutchy wrote:
Nope. You missed some college courses in economics.


Actually I took a lot of them, as Economics was my major. The only one where I did badly was Marxist Economics, which was taught by a True Believer who did not appreciate my poking holes in Marx's assumptions, and he tried (unsuccessfully) to flunk me.
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:09 am

Dreadnought wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Nope. You missed some college courses in economics.


Actually I took a lot of them, as Economics was my major. The only one where I did badly was Marxist Economics, which was taught by a True Believer who did not appreciate my poking holes in Marx's assumptions, and he tried (unsuccessfully) to flunk me.


Oh, I am sorry for you.
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seb146
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:41 am

Dreadnought wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Who works those low wage jobs the middle class won't do? If citizens like you and I still need to depend on government for assistance, that means wages are far too low. If you think a family can survive and flourish in the United States on $500 a month, you really have no idea what the problem is.


Oversupply is the problem. Eliminate that problem wages will increase out of necessity. The whole "immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do" is a con, a farce, a fraud pushed on you by leftist politicians and their ideological associates, in cahoots with big business. Yes, Americans won't work tobacco fields for $5 per hour. But there is a price level at which they will. Maybe $15, or $25. Oversupplying the labor market is a means for big business to ensure that wages stay artificially low.


wow... So you are telling me that Americans will stampede to the fields to pick strawberries for $15 or $20 an hour and that will have zero impact on the price at the supermarket? It will not make that $15 or $20 an hour worth it if we can not buy anything. This might be why "leftist politicians" push this "fraud" on the American people. Because it sounds like they understand economics.

And the head of which party is pushing for more H2B visas for his companies?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:35 am

BobPatterson wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Health insurance is not a want, it is a need, unlike car, life , or home insurance.

Health Care is a NEED. How do you WANT to pay for that?

a. Out of pocket (cash or credit)
b. Insurance
c. Taxes (with credits for those with approved insurance plans)

My preference is for (c.). Uniform coverage nationwide.

Life insurance is optional based on desire.

Auto and Homeowners' insurance is most often a requirement (need) of motor vehicle law and mortgage contract.


I think we have to have a form of single payer which is Option C. We need healthcare that meets a certain minimum requirement. Perhaps there can be private plans for hospital rooms, and preferential doctor regiments of some sort, but at the end of the day, people need a certain class of healthcare.


Auto and Homeowners insurance are a need, but they are derived from a want, Cars and Homes do not need to be owned. They are a cheaper choice in many cases, but not a need.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:03 am

After eight years of Mitch McConnell and his big mouth along with many other big mouths in the Republican Party, I have to be honest, this tickles my ass. They deserve to have their faces rubbed in it. Failure is sweet when trying to screw over the people as they just failed to do. :melting: :eek:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:06 am

WarRI1 wrote:
After eight years of Mitch McConnell and his big mouth along with many other big mouths in the Republican Party, I have to be honest, this tickles my ass. They deserve to have their faces rubbed in it. Failure is sweet when trying to screw over the people as they just failed to do. :melting: :eek:

Actually, now would be a good time for the Senate Democrats to go easy on the crowing and try to begin bipartisan action on improving the ACA.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:10 am

BobPatterson wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
After eight years of Mitch McConnell and his big mouth along with many other big mouths in the Republican Party, I have to be honest, this tickles my ass. They deserve to have their faces rubbed in it. Failure is sweet when trying to screw over the people as they just failed to do. :melting: :eek:

Actually, now would be a good time for the Senate Democrats to go easy on the crowing and try to begin bipartisan action on improving the ACA.


I would normally agree with that, but they do deserve a tickle or two and then let us get on with helping the people, not the Billionaires. ;)
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:17 am

It should really not be too hard for Republicans to go back to that status before Obamacare.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6842
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:43 am

Dreadnought wrote:
He worked in the US for that company the whole time. That decision did not come out of the blue. There were discussions, shareholders meetings, roundtables etc held by the company with retirees and management, which (my dad attended) over a period of a couple of years deciding what to do with retiree benefit programs. It was 100% clear that ACA was the root cause of their plan becoming unsustainable - for the first time in that company's 150 year history, they were going to have to renig on retiree benefits that were promised.r.


so, your dads company finds a convenient excuse to kick your parents out of their health insurance, and of course you don´t blame the company, but the ACA....

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:48 am

WarRI1 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
After eight years of Mitch McConnell and his big mouth along with many other big mouths in the Republican Party, I have to be honest, this tickles my ass. They deserve to have their faces rubbed in it. Failure is sweet when trying to screw over the people as they just failed to do. :melting: :eek:

Actually, now would be a good time for the Senate Democrats to go easy on the crowing and try to begin bipartisan action on improving the ACA.


I would normally agree with that, but they do deserve a tickle or two and then let us get on with helping the people, not the Billionaires. ;)


:checkmark:

It would be a scoop though. Get 2 Republican senators to the Democratic site and make the ACA great with granting companies compensation for losses due to the introduction of this bill.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:50 am

seahawk wrote:
It should really not be too hard for Republicans to go back to that status before Obamacare.



They had seven years to come up with a plan and everything has failed spectacularly, why do you think they will manage that?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6842
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:50 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Actually, now would be a good time for the Senate Democrats to go easy on the crowing and try to begin bipartisan action on improving the ACA.


If the GOP would be an honest negotiating partner it would be, but since it has proven to be nothing of the sort, doing so would be the most stupid political thing to do. If they say "ok" to any GOP healthcare plan, the full force of Breitbart, Fox, Kremlin Propaganda and so on would make sure that each and every detail that the voters don´t like would be completely stuck to the democrats.

That bipartiasn ship has sailed for this generation since the GOP decided to block anything Obama wants, even if it in line with republican policies.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:39 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Actually, now would be a good time for the Senate Democrats to go easy on the crowing and try to begin bipartisan action on improving the ACA.
seb146 wrote:

Absolutely. The GOP now has over 90% behind an ACA replacement/revision, but that is not enough. A dozen democratic votes would make a massive difference.

seb146 wrote:
wow... So you are telling me that Americans will stampede to the fields to pick strawberries for $15 or $20 an hour and that will have zero impact on the price at the supermarket? It will not make that $15 or $20 an hour worth it if we can not buy anything.


Of course the price of such goods would have to increase. But the price would reflect the products' true value in the market, rather than the distorted price mechanism of today.

I am also a big proponent of eliminating farming subsidies such as on corn. Yes, that means sodas etc will be more expensive. But that is less undesirable to me than a distorted market, bloated government budget, and all sorts of entities that make a lot of money for themselves with these subsidies.

Let the market sort out costs and prices. Government is not smart enough or competent enough to do it better.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6842
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:51 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
I am also a big proponent of eliminating farming subsidies such as on corn. Yes, that means sodas etc will be more expensive. But that is less undesirable to me than a distorted market, bloated government budget, and all sorts of entities that make a lot of money for themselves with these subsidies.


Venture a guess what will happen if corn made in the US becomes more expensive than imported?

Let the market sort out costs and prices. Government is not smart enough or competent enough to do it better.


You can't have it both ways, either the government interferes in market prices or in company sizes.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Venture a guess what will happen if corn made in the US becomes more expensive than imported?


Sounds like fearmongering to me. And why should we not count the subsidies as part of current cost?

BTW I am more inclined to favor some financial aid to small family-owned farms. But the mega firms like Conagra should not be hanging on a government tit.

tommy1808 wrote:
You can't have it both ways, either the government interferes in market prices or in company sizes.


We currently are doing both. We subsidize vast industries. And by holding interest rates artificially low for the past decade, we have given rise to "Zombie Enterprises", who are large, overextended, and burdened by debt that should have driven them out of business if interest rates were normal. These established companies, if allowed to fail, would free up the market and resources to new smaller entrants who can do the job better. Big Government protects Big Business.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6842
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:00 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Venture a guess what will happen if corn made in the US becomes more expensive than imported?


Sounds like fearmongering to me. And why should we not count the subsidies as part of current cost?


For the society as a whole they are, if you buy corn to process it, they are not. That is not alarmist, it is just a consequence of market forces. When German fishers haul scrimp into the harbor, they are usually send all the way to Africa to be cleaned (north sea shrimp are delicious, but tiny), even more so since low paid jobs aren´t subsidized anymore.......

BTW I am more inclined to favor some financial aid to small family-owned farms. But the mega firms like Conagra should not be hanging on a government tit.


oh, i am completely in line with you. I think farming subsidies are the biggest blunder of the EU these days

Big Government protects Big Business.


Not necessarily ... big government and big business are competitors for influence. But if big business is important for a big government, or in fact any government, staying in power, the fall into line with each other.
In that sense it is very important how the political setup in that country is, if companies get to be bigger contributors to campaigns than individual citizens, citizens become largely irrelevant.

France is a good example, while that country is definitely fairly big government with 56% of the GDP, their economy, even by European standards, but has an amazing amount of 1 to 5 people companies, high start up rate and so on. If you got the time, this may be an interesting read for you http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics ... demography

Differnt from farm subsidies, Eurostat is one of the best things about the EU ... lots of data at your fingertips for free...

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 5934
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Get 2 Republican senators to the Democratic site and make the ACA great with granting companies compensation for losses due to the introduction of this bill.

It's not that simple. The Senate is essentially controlled by McConnell. If he refuses to bring a bill to a vote, nothing (except extreme pressure from his colleagues or donors) will budge him from considering the bill. In the House, there exists the mechanism called a discharge petition, when a bill is brought to the floor for consideration if a majority of legislators wish to override the will of the Speaker and the process itself (i.e. if the Speaker does not wish to bring the bill to the floor or if the bill is being held in committee, a majority of representatives can call for the discharge petition and, if it the motion passes, the bill is brought immediately to the floor). The Senate does not have a similar procedure.

If it were that easy, Democrats would probably have their plan lined up waiting for a couple of GOP Senators willing to support the plan and put it to a vote. And because the minority is effectively powerless, there's absolutely no incentive for Democrats to craft a bill of their own.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
seb146
Posts: 15697
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Actually, now would be a good time for the Senate Democrats to go easy on the crowing and try to begin bipartisan action on improving the ACA.
seb146 wrote:

Absolutely. The GOP now has over 90% behind an ACA replacement/revision, but that is not enough. A dozen democratic votes would make a massive difference.

seb146 wrote:
wow... So you are telling me that Americans will stampede to the fields to pick strawberries for $15 or $20 an hour and that will have zero impact on the price at the supermarket? It will not make that $15 or $20 an hour worth it if we can not buy anything.


Of course the price of such goods would have to increase. But the price would reflect the products' true value in the market, rather than the distorted price mechanism of today.

I am also a big proponent of eliminating farming subsidies such as on corn. Yes, that means sodas etc will be more expensive. But that is less undesirable to me than a distorted market, bloated government budget, and all sorts of entities that make a lot of money for themselves with these subsidies.

Let the market sort out costs and prices. Government is not smart enough or competent enough to do it better.


So let the market set prices for absolutely everything so that we are working for 50 cents an hour and it is our own damn fault if we can not afford "luxuries" like food and shelter and health care because the market demands it? Such compassion as a defender of the Party Of God....
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:12 pm

seb146 wrote:
So let the market set prices for absolutely everything so that we are working for 50 cents an hour and it is our own damn fault if we can not afford "luxuries" like food and shelter and health care


That will never happen if you control immigration. You guys have been sold such an illogical bill of goods and you refuse to acknowledge it - all in the name of "inclusiveness" and open borders. Did you know that some countries like Switzerland have no minimum wage? But lower class people are paid there way better than here because unemployment is very low, and it is virtually impossible for an illegal immigrant to get a job there. Scarcity of labor pushes wages up. Surplus labor pushes wages down.

So basic you can't even see it because of your ideological blinders.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6842
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:29 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
and it is virtually impossible for an illegal immigrant to get a job there.


That may be because they go after the employers and not the illegal employees and that they are not joking about it either.

Scarcity of labor pushes wages up. Surplus labor pushes wages down.


Yes..it also pushed jobs out of the country and go see a border crossing on the weekends, with Swiss citizens driving to neighbour countries in droves to go shopping, because not just wages are high in Switzerland, prices are too.
It may also have to do with the 500 million EU citizens, many of them in low income countries, that can just come and legally seek employment, and not having a land border to any country where "illegals" could come from...

So basic you can't even see it because of your ideological blinders.


Exactly. ..

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:18 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
That may be because they go after the employers and not the illegal employees and that they are not joking about it either.


They do both. If you are an illegal immigrant, it is impossible to rent/buy an apartment, or a car, or sign up for utilities, or insurance, or a bank account. And if they ever find you, you are put on the first plane back to your home country.

tommy1808 wrote:
TYes..it also pushed jobs out of the country and go see a border crossing on the weekends, with Swiss citizens driving to neighbour countries in droves to go shopping, because not just wages are high in Switzerland, prices are too.
It may also have to do with the 500 million EU citizens, many of them in low income countries, that can just come and legally seek employment, and not having a land border to any country where "illegals" could come from...


Entry into Schengen has been a terrible mistake for Switzerland, but hopefully they will be able to back out of it soon.

tommy1808 wrote:
TExactly. ..


My comment was addressed to Seb rather than yourself. I sometimes question whether he acknowledges the existence of the right side of his body.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6842
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:30 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
That may be because they go after the employers and not the illegal employees and that they are not joking about it either.


They do both. If you are an illegal immigrant, it is impossible to rent/buy an apartment, or a car, or sign up for utilities, or insurance, or a bank account. And if they ever find you, you are put on the first plane back to your home country.


they also toss they employer in a cell for up to 3 years, which does make the real difference...
How many CEO is US prisons for hiring illegals?

tommy1808 wrote:
Entry into Schengen has been a terrible mistake for Switzerland, but hopefully they will be able to back out of it soon.


Blablabla..the Swiss economy went into overdrive exactly when they joined the Schengen agreement.

tommy1808 wrote:
TExactly. ..


My comment was addressed to Seb rather than yourself. I sometimes question whether he acknowledges the existence of the right side of his body.[/quote]

Mine was aimed at you.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
seb146
Posts: 15697
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:51 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So let the market set prices for absolutely everything so that we are working for 50 cents an hour and it is our own damn fault if we can not afford "luxuries" like food and shelter and health care


That will never happen if you control immigration. You guys have been sold such an illogical bill of goods and you refuse to acknowledge it - all in the name of "inclusiveness" and open borders. Did you know that some countries like Switzerland have no minimum wage? But lower class people are paid there way better than here because unemployment is very low, and it is virtually impossible for an illegal immigrant to get a job there. Scarcity of labor pushes wages up. Surplus labor pushes wages down.

So basic you can't even see it because of your ideological blinders.


But that WILL happen if you control immigration. Again: Americans can not survive picking berries in the field. Even if we make enough per hour, the prices of everything else goes up so that makes everything out of reach again. You don't understand basic economics. Or maybe it is immigration you don't understand. Illegals work the fields here because they are paid more here than their home country. Fine. Does that mean Americans should settle for those extraordinarily low wages and pray the markets react accordingly?
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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Tugger
Posts: 7052
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:03 pm

seb146 wrote:
But that WILL happen if you control immigration. Again: Americans can not survive picking berries in the field. Even if we make enough per hour, the prices of everything else goes up so that makes everything out of reach again. You don't understand basic economics. Or maybe it is immigration you don't understand. Illegals work the fields here because they are paid more here than their home country. Fine. Does that mean Americans should settle for those extraordinarily low wages and pray the markets react accordingly?

I disagree. Controlling immigration does not mean you do not allow needed workers from entering to do needed work. It means you control that process. And a big part of that control would be enable if employers were held accountable to ensure the correct process was followed by those they employ.

You are arguing a point that doesn't make sense.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 20615
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:09 am

Dreadnought wrote:

Really? Does that logic work in reverse? How many people lost their health insurance due to ACA?


Well, technically nobody did. There was a net increase in the number and percentage of Americans who were insured. Now, it's not quite that simple. There certainly were people who had plans that were discontinued with the start of the ACA because those plans were not compilant with ACA requirements, but a great many of those people were switched to new plans.

I think the uninsured rate is probably the most meaningful statistic about who can get to the doctor. When the ACA came into effect, I lost just a few patients to new plans whose network didn't include me (usually Kaiser). I also gained a whole boatload of new patients whose parents were so excited about being able to get good healthcare for their children.

But this idea that the GOP will steer the ACA into the ground JUST SO THEY CAN BLAME THE OPPOSITION is awful. I think it speaks to the kind of moral decay at the heart of the GOP. I've seen this moral decay and loathing of country growing slowly like a cancer in the party since I was 18 in 1995 and first gained the ability to vote. I have now seen this party root for an economic crash, collude with a foreign power (don't start that no-true-Scotsman stuff about the President), and now they are trying to tank everyone's health insurance.

I wish them their comeuppance. I have to think that most of America will not be fooled.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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