Ken777
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Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:51 am

Grab your checkbook - the GOP is about to crash the health care system in this country. Taking 20+ million off of Medicaid is sufficient to drive rapid medical inflation because of dramatic increases in cost shifting. In other words, grab your checkbook or pray really hard your employer doesn't give up on employee health care.

Since all the Republicans who have go on TV and say they have not seen the bill (including those like Mike Lee who is on the bill writing committee) now has to ask who has actually written the bill. Word is that Lobbyists have seen it and the odds are very strong that the insurance industry has seen it. My guess is those are the two groups that are writing it.

Thursday will supposedly give us the first peak. Let's see how much is hidden and how much is exposed.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:05 am

Once again, how can people be this stupid to believe this will not be a screwing for the ordinary and a boon for the wealthy and the insurance companies. Like John McCain said, we were screaming about Obama Care and the way it was passed and now we are doing the same thing. Go figure.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:49 am

Government of the people by the people... my a$$.

Then again, this is probably more of a reflection of the electorate who willingly and of their own accord voted this plutocracy in.
Let's see how much longer this government can keep distracting them by dangling shiny populism in front of their eyes.
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drew777
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:27 pm

A few facts about the cuts from a CNN article.

"The bill would continue the enhanced Medicaid expansion funding from Obamacare until 2021 and then phase it out over three years"

"But it would shrink the program even more over time by pegging the annual growth rate of those funds to standard inflation, rather than the more generous medical inflation, starting in 2025."

"The Senate bill would also largely maintain Obamacare's premium subsidies structure, but tighten the eligibility criteria starting in 2020."

Seems to me Trump / Senate don't want the ACA to go away anytime soon. Once the Trumpcare cuts start to negatively affect people, they'll blame it on the "collapse of Obamacare."
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:09 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
Like John McCain said, we were screaming about Obama Care and the way it was passed and now we are doing the same thing. Go figure.

In other words:

"I don't like how this process is going or what this bill will do, but I'll vote for it regardless because of reasons"

Just like Rubio promising to be a check on the presidency if Clinton won...but since Trump won, he's no more than a rubber stamp.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:22 pm

The GOP is throwing a Tax cut for the rich party, and it will cost everyone who purchases insurance more money.

This bill will be a disaster for anyone paying for health coverage in the middle class.
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910A
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:02 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
casinterest wrote:
The GOP is throwing a Tax cut for the rich party, and it will cost everyone who purchases insurance more money.

This bill will be a disaster for anyone paying for health coverage in the middle class.


The employer mandate would be eliminated, so I view this has the beginning of the end of employer group health insurance plans. It will be just like pensions, some company will decide they can have higher profits if they eliminated the group health insurance plan, and once they get away with it, others will follow. So basically someone that is paying let say $300 a month for health insurance for their family, could see their insurance cost increase greatly.
 
johns624
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:47 pm

Like I've always said--When a politician is running for office, he SAYS what the voters want to hear. After he's elected, he DOES what the big money donors tell him to.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:23 am

910A wrote:
The employer mandate would be eliminated, so I view this has the beginning of the end of employer group health insurance plans. It will be just like pensions, some company will decide they can have higher profits if they eliminated the group health insurance plan, and once they get away with it, others will follow. So basically someone that is paying let say $300 a month for health insurance for their family, could see their insurance cost increase greatly.

One of the reasons I recently declined an offer to work for a different defense company was the fact that even their barebone plan was too expensive (my company is still generous enough to offer it at no cost to us AND put almost half the annual deductible into an HSA each year). I'm confident my company won't start dropping the ball on healthcare (they could have already gone the route of this other company but haven't), but I pity those whose company already offers a crappy health plan at a large cost: that mandate will probably lead companies to say "you're on your own".

Workers can always vote with their feet, but it's not so easy.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:54 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Like John McCain said, we were screaming about Obama Care and the way it was passed and now we are doing the same thing. Go figure.

In other words:

"I don't like how this process is going or what this bill will do, but I'll vote for it regardless because of reasons"

Just like Rubio promising to be a check on the presidency if Clinton won...but since Trump won, he's no more than a rubber stamp.



Hypocrisy thy name is Politicians. Mealy mouthed phonies all.
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seb146
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:51 am

The GOP "health care" reforms also want to get rid of mental health care. Easy access to guns and no mental health care. What could possibly go wrong?
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tommy1808
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:40 am

seb146 wrote:
The GOP "health care" reforms also want to get rid of mental health care. Easy access to guns and no mental health care. What could possibly go wrong?


Well, since it clearly is a program to kill of the poor and old, pushing gun violence up to new hights fits the agenda, doesn´t it?

best regards
Thomas
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apodino
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:37 pm

Ken777 wrote:
Grab your checkbook - the GOP is about to crash the health care system in this country. Taking 20+ million off of Medicaid is sufficient to drive rapid medical inflation because of dramatic increases in cost shifting. In other words, grab your checkbook or pray really hard your employer doesn't give up on employee health care.

Since all the Republicans who have go on TV and say they have not seen the bill (including those like Mike Lee who is on the bill writing committee) now has to ask who has actually written the bill. Word is that Lobbyists have seen it and the odds are very strong that the insurance industry has seen it. My guess is those are the two groups that are writing it.

Thursday will supposedly give us the first peak. Let's see how much is hidden and how much is exposed.

Supposedly, the story I read somewhere is that Lobbyists were not allowed into the closed door bill writing sessions and were furious about it. I have heard that the amount of lobbyist activity around this is infinitesimal compared to when the ACA was being drafted and debated.

I don't like what I see in this initially. It doesn't address the problems that the ACA created which is soaring premiums, and less insurers covering people, which if not dealt with will create a monopoly in the Health insurance agency before too long. I don't expect the CBO score to be much different than for the House bill, even though the last CBO report was spun to make it look worse than it was. And lastly, the bill, like the ACA, does nothing to address spiraling medical costs. Prescription drugs are getting way out of control, and it is well known the drug companies are specifically price gouging Americans. Something needs to be done to rein in medical costs. I don't know what that is. Another problem is we need more Doctors, and Medical Schools limit admission, which limits our ability to replace Doctors. All in all, I think the republicans are going to get this thing passed, but I am not sure that will be a good thing. The ACA should have never been passed in the first place, and the problem it and many other government programs have is although they hurt way more people than they help, they help just enough people where doing away with it is catastrophic for these people. And even though many more people would be helped than hurt by these programs going away, the few people that it hurts make it easy for politicians to show that people would be hurt. This is how they cling to power people.

Lastly, on an unrelated note, CA is considering a single payer system in the state. I have been watching this very closely, and if they do get it passed, this is what we need to look at to see if it can really work elsewhere, or if it will cause huge budget problems like IL is currently facing.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:03 pm

The GOP has tax cuts on the brain, much as they did in 2000/2001. This whole bill is not mean to advance health care at all. It is a flat out tax cut for the rich.
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Ken777
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:03 pm

apodino wrote:

I don't like what I see in this initially. It doesn't address the problems that the ACA created which is soaring premiums, and less insurers covering people, which if not dealt with will create a monopoly in the Health insurance agency before too long. I don't expect the CBO score to be much different than for the House bill, even though the last CBO report was spun to make it look worse than it was. And lastly, the bill, like the ACA, does nothing to address spiraling medical costs. Prescription drugs are getting way out of control, and it is well known the drug companies are specifically price gouging Americans. Something needs to be done to rein in medical costs. I don't know what that is. Another problem is we need more Doctors, and Medical Schools limit admission, which limits our ability to replace Doctors. All in all, I think the republicans are going to get this thing passed, but I am not sure that will be a good thing. The ACA should have never been passed in the first place, and the problem it and many other government programs have is although they hurt way more people than they help, they help just enough people where doing away with it is catastrophic for these people. And even though many more people would be helped than hurt by these programs going away, the few people that it hurts make it easy for politicians to show that people would be hurt. This is how they cling to power people.

Lastly, on an unrelated note, CA is considering a single payer system in the state. I have been watching this very closely, and if they do get it passed, this is what we need to look at to see if it can really work elsewhere, or if it will cause huge budget problems like IL is currently facing.


You can forget about spiraling premiums. Those soaring costs are a factor of our core health care system and were in place long before ObamaCare, My premiums doubled during the first 4 years of Bush Cheney,

This problem will continue as long as we put off killing cost shifting - meaning a government card for everyone, even if you have private insurance. Then you can cut the costs of health care and premiums. It's not that complicated, but politicians will never admit that they cannot devise a better plan than universal care for all (with private insurance allowed).
 
seb146
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:18 am

I heard they are allowing 10 hours of debate on this bill. Ten. Hours. Republicans keep going on about what a debacle ACA is after months of debate and hearings and getting what they wanted and watering it down. They really think that ten hours of debate is much better.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:50 am

seb146 wrote:
I heard they are allowing 10 hours of debate on this bill. Ten. Hours. Republicans keep going on about what a debacle ACA is after months of debate and hearings and getting what they wanted and watering it down. They really think that ten hours of debate is much better.

This after promising an alternative as a precursor to capture the House in 2010, one that took them over 7 years to develop that was not just a clean repeal.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
treetreeseven
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:30 am

I have a serious illness that's kept me out of steady work for 3+ years. It's finally looking like I'll be able to work more steadily pretty soon.

I'm completely dependent on the Medicaid expansion for this. I could die without it.

I called 3 Senators Friday morning and faxed a handwritten letter to another 10.
 
photopilot
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:38 am

Shouldn't this really be called "TrumpNOcare"?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:52 am

treetreeseven wrote:
I have a serious illness that's kept me out of steady work for 3+ years. It's finally looking like I'll be able to work more steadily pretty soon.

I'm completely dependent on the Medicaid expansion for this. I could die without it.

I called 3 Senators Friday morning and faxed a handwritten letter to another 10.


Hope you will be fine again and this shows that universal health care is much needed, much more needed than the greed at the top (where the billions will go to) or with the health care companies.
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apodino
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:35 pm

On a related note the Single Payer initiative in CA has been tabled by Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon. Just proof that many ideas sound good on paper, but are harder to implement in actuality and this is the aspect of governing that I don't think us people outside the system realize. Here is a great blog entry ripping the CA dems for this, and also ripping Obamacare at the same time.

https://willyloman.wordpress.com/2017/06/24/california-corporatist-dems-sink-popular-single-payer-healthcare-bill/

One issue that I could see potentially with single payer is that the US and State governments are much more prone to lobbying than counterparts around the world. This could mean that as long as politicians remain in the pocket of corporate interests, a single payer system could be price gouged to death in this country, all so politicians can keep their jobs. This needs to stop.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:53 pm

Sorry, just need to lighten the mood.

We all know what's in it
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BobPatterson
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:28 am

apodino wrote:
On a related note the Single Payer initiative in CA has been tabled by Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon. Just proof that many ideas sound good on paper, but are harder to implement in actuality and this is the aspect of governing that I don't think us people outside the system realize. Here is a great blog entry ripping the CA dems for this, and also ripping Obamacare at the same time.

https://willyloman.wordpress.com/2017/06/24/california-corporatist-dems-sink-popular-single-payer-healthcare-bill/

One issue that I could see potentially with single payer is that the US and State governments are much more prone to lobbying than counterparts around the world. This could mean that as long as politicians remain in the pocket of corporate interests, a single payer system could be price gouged to death in this country, all so politicians can keep their jobs. This needs to stop.


The linked article you provided does not seem to me to be trying to present an accurate, unbiased story. It says, for instance:

(Aetna, whose CEO Mark Bertolini reported to the Securities and Exchange Commission a $27.9 million compensation in 2015, has similarly celebrated sky-high profits. “In 2015, we reported annual operating revenue of over $60.3 billion, a record for the Company,”)

The suggestion there is that the sky-high profits amounted to $60.3 billion. Operating revenue is not profits.

In Aetna's 2015 annual report they claim $60,336,500,000 in total revenues and net income of $2,390,200.000. Operating earnings is given as $2,717,100,000.

http://www.aetna.com/investors-aetna/as ... report.pdf

I made no attempt to determine the accuracy of the rest of the story.
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cledaybuck
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:55 pm

I don't get it. What does the GOP see in this? Taking ownership of the country's health care system with this bill just to "repeal Obamacare" seems like cutting of one's nose to spite their face politically.
 
Ken777
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:55 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I don't get it. What does the GOP see in this? Taking ownership of the country's health care system with this bill just to "repeal Obamacare" seems like cutting of one's nose to spite their face politically.


What the GOP sees in this is the availability of a Trillion Dollar Tax cut when they suck a Trillion Dollars out of health care for the poor and middle class. It is all about the tax cut as there is no political benefit in swapping out ObamaCare for TrumpCare. That reality is seen in the efforts to keep the GOP plan hidden from the public until after the special elections last month.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:48 pm

Wow, 22 million more UNINSURED per CBO on current Senate plan.
It would save 321 billion in budget deficits over 10 years, or 32 billion a year. Is 1500 per uninsured person worth it, when the average yearly cost for healthcare per person has reached 10,345 per person?

https://www.cbo.gov/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/new ... er-person/




https://www.cbo.gov/
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330west
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:50 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I don't get it. What does the GOP see in this? Taking ownership of the country's health care system with this bill just to "repeal Obamacare" seems like cutting of one's nose to spite their face politically.


Simple. It's an opportunity to undo Obama's legacy and bring this nation a few decades closer to the 1830s.
Always fly first class, otherwise your heirs will.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:31 am

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
330west
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:09 am

On the bright side, they probably won't have the votes.

Obviously there's nothing a rational person can say to defend the motivations behind this bill though.
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Francoflier
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:58 am

330west wrote:
On the bright side, they probably won't have the votes.

Obviously there's nothing a rational person can say to defend the motivations behind this bill though.


That's what they said about the house version.

I wouldn't find any comfort in the apparent reticence of some GOP senators... At the end of the day, the bill is quite indefensible, so some will resort to logical contortions and evasive speech, while other will pretend their displeasure with the bill.
Notice that none have outright said they will not vote for it? That's because while they may show some reluctance in order to protect their public image, at the end of the day, it is quite clear that all these politicians have put party squarely before country and people, and that when it comes to voting, they will all fall in line as ordered by their senate leader.

If you think some GOP senators have grown a spine, think again. I expect they will unanimously vote for it when the day comes.
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Hillis
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:46 pm

Image
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bhill
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:34 pm

Follow the money...until big pharma and the insurance industries stop bribing...errr lobbying their bought and paid for Congress folk, single payor will never happen. The ONLY reason Obamacare, and now McConnellcare is happening is because both of those industries are involved in the blueprint. It might actually be better for the whole healthcare "industry" to crash..and start all over with every citizen in the US being enrolled in Medicare....and the current healthcare system will crash, as the increases in premiums, drugs and deductibles are not sustainable.
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:14 pm

Realizing once again that they have nothing. The GOP has canceled the vote for healthcare this week.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/us/p ... -bill.html
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Ken777
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:15 pm

Looks like the Senate vote will be delayed until after the recess. Networks are waiting for McConnell to make the formal announcement.

Biggest problem for the GOP is the CBO announcement that the Senate Bill will basically be as big a disaster as the House version and that has at least 4 Republicans saying No.

Trump has also called all Republicans in the Senate to the White House for a 4 PM meeting today, Doubt that is a social event with Tea & Cookies. Would love to be a fly on the wall for that one.
 
Hillis
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:20 pm

casinterest wrote:
Realizing once again that they have nothing. The GOP has canceled the vote for healthcare this week.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/us/p ... -bill.html


Think about this people: the GOP has control of the House, the Senate and the Presidency. They have barred Democrats from helping to craft, or even see the bill; they have holed up thirteen old men to make the decisions for the entire nation; they have an ace-in-the-hole with the Vice President to cast a tie-breaking vote. They all that, and they STILL cannot govern with any semblance of effectiveness. McConnell has a bill he knows will be a disaster, but as long as he can get the name of that Black Guy off of the health care apparatus, he doesn't give a shit. He cares more about the tax breaks for hte wealhtty than having good health care for everyone.

This party cannot govern, period. We've seen in Kansas, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas and virtually every state the GOP controls. They purposely and consciously make life for their citizens a living hell where most can never improve their lot in life. And in D.C, they're following the same script.

2018 needs to be a turning point to ridding the nation of their toxic world view and policies.
B737-100, B737-200, B737-300, B737-500, B737-700, B737-800, B737-900, B727, B-707 DC-10, MD-11, 763, 764, 777, 757-200, 757-300, A-319, A-320, A-321, A-300, ERJ-145, ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, CRJ-100, CRJ-200, DASH-2, DASH-3, DASH-8, BAE-146
 
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casinterest
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:45 pm

Hillis wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Realizing once again that they have nothing. The GOP has canceled the vote for healthcare this week.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/us/p ... -bill.html


Think about this people: the GOP has control of the House, the Senate and the Presidency. They have barred Democrats from helping to craft, or even see the bill; they have holed up thirteen old men to make the decisions for the entire nation; they have an ace-in-the-hole with the Vice President to cast a tie-breaking vote. They all that, and they STILL cannot govern with any semblance of effectiveness. McConnell has a bill he knows will be a disaster, but as long as he can get the name of that Black Guy off of the health care apparatus, he doesn't give a shit. He cares more about the tax breaks for hte wealhtty than having good health care for everyone.

This party cannot govern, period. We've seen in Kansas, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas and virtually every state the GOP controls. They purposely and consciously make life for their citizens a living hell where most can never improve their lot in life. And in D.C, they're following the same script.

2018 needs to be a turning point to ridding the nation of their toxic world view and policies.


The GOP has a problem doing what is needed. They are like the folks that sit on the side of all the big discussions and say if we did it my way it would be better. However they never properly define "My Way". and they speak in broad general statements. The GOP at the end of the day does not have all of the answers all of the time. They have some of the answers, some of the time. Just like the democrats. The problem is with such hyper partisanship now having crept through the media, talk radio, all the members of congress and the executive branch, we are now in a period where the middle road is no longer taken due to the issues of being primaried by a bunch of ideological frauds on both sides. We need to basically get rid of primaries in their current form if all they serve to do is to further divide this country from a common middle ground. Perhaps primaries for any office should require direct competition at all times.
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tommy1808
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:58 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I don't get it. What does the GOP see in this? Taking ownership of the country's health care system with this bill just to "repeal Obamacare" seems like cutting of one's nose to spite their face politically.


They are just certain enough that they Voter ID lawed and garrymandered enough that, with Putins and Super PACs help, being popular in any form or shape is not required to win elections.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:59 pm

casinterest wrote:
Hillis wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Realizing once again that they have nothing. The GOP has canceled the vote for healthcare this week.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/us/p ... -bill.html


Think about this people: the GOP has control of the House, the Senate and the Presidency. They have barred Democrats from helping to craft, or even see the bill; they have holed up thirteen old men to make the decisions for the entire nation; they have an ace-in-the-hole with the Vice President to cast a tie-breaking vote. They all that, and they STILL cannot govern with any semblance of effectiveness. McConnell has a bill he knows will be a disaster, but as long as he can get the name of that Black Guy off of the health care apparatus, he doesn't give a shit. He cares more about the tax breaks for hte wealhtty than having good health care for everyone.

This party cannot govern, period. We've seen in Kansas, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas and virtually every state the GOP controls. They purposely and consciously make life for their citizens a living hell where most can never improve their lot in life. And in D.C, they're following the same script.

2018 needs to be a turning point to ridding the nation of their toxic world view and policies.


The GOP has a problem doing what is needed. They are like the folks that sit on the side of all the big discussions and say if we did it my way it would be better. However they never properly define "My Way". and they speak in broad general statements. The GOP at the end of the day does not have all of the answers all of the time. They have some of the answers, some of the time. Just like the democrats. The problem is with such hyper partisanship now having crept through the media, talk radio, all the members of congress and the executive branch, we are now in a period where the middle road is no longer taken due to the issues of being primaried by a bunch of ideological frauds on both sides. We need to basically get rid of primaries in their current form if all they serve to do is to further divide this country from a common middle ground. Perhaps primaries for any office should require direct competition at all times.
I think primaries that are general, not by party, would be better.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I don't get it. What does the GOP see in this? Taking ownership of the country's health care system with this bill just to "repeal Obamacare" seems like cutting of one's nose to spite their face politically.


They are just certain enough that they Voter ID lawed and garrymandered enough that, with Putins and Super PACs help, being popular in any form or shape is not required to win elections.

best regards
Thomas
Good luck with that!
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:52 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The problem is with such hyper partisanship now having crept through the media, talk radio, all the members of congress and the executive branch, we are now in a period where the middle road is no longer taken due to the issues of being primaried by a bunch of ideological frauds on both sides. We need to basically get rid of primaries in their current form if all they serve to do is to further divide this country from a common middle ground. Perhaps primaries for any office should require direct competition at all times.
I think primaries that are general, not by party, would be better.


There could probably be a very interesting discussion (under a distinctly separate thread) on these ideas.

But I'm having difficulty in imagining how a new arrangement might work.

I don't think it is possible to eliminate parties, blocs, or interest groups, all of whom will want to support and elect "their" candidates.

So how, in America, do "their" potential candidates get nominated to slates and pass through a primary process followed by a general election?

Would either of you start a new topic in this forum?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 5725
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:48 am

BobPatterson wrote:
So how, in America, do "their" potential candidates get nominated to slates and pass through a primary process followed by a general election?

A jungle primary like CA and WA have. Everyone is on the same ballot for the "primary", regardless of party affiliation. If you're a moderate who appeals to a large swath of the electorate, it's very possible that you can make it to the general election against a more ideologically driven candidate. If it's a DvR general election, you're almost assured the party (if you're registered on either party) vote so that the other guy does not get the seat. If it's an intraparty general election, you best hope your moderate appeal carries over so that the other side of the electorate considers you palatable enough for their taste and vote you in.

A lot of people dislike the jungle primary because it shuts off a party from a general election, but I say nonsense. If a Republican didn't make it to the general election for the Senate in CA, for example, it's because they're not appealing to the electorate. However, there were various districts in CA where no Democrat advanced to the general, so the system benefits both parties and allows third parties to make a credible bid, but only if the electorate is allied with them.

Louisiana's version is similar, except their "primary" is essentially done during the general election and you need 50%; otherwise, it's a runoff.

At this point, I'm not sure which version I prefer. The LA version guarantees that someone DOES obtain 50% of the vote (or close to it). The WA and CA methods do not; assume a primary ballot with 20 people, and the top two can perhaps gather just 30% of the vote.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:27 am

BobPatterson wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The problem is with such hyper partisanship now having crept through the media, talk radio, all the members of congress and the executive branch, we are now in a period where the middle road is no longer taken due to the issues of being primaried by a bunch of ideological frauds on both sides. We need to basically get rid of primaries in their current form if all they serve to do is to further divide this country from a common middle ground. Perhaps primaries for any office should require direct competition at all times.
I think primaries that are general, not by party, would be better.


There could probably be a very interesting discussion (under a distinctly separate thread) on these ideas.

But I'm having difficulty in imagining how a new arrangement might work.

I don't think it is possible to eliminate parties, blocs, or interest groups, all of whom will want to support and elect "their" candidates.

So how, in America, do "their" potential candidates get nominated to slates and pass through a primary process followed by a general election?

Would either of you start a new topic in this forum?


While reading the Washington Post this evening I saw an Op-Ed piece written by Representative Don Beyer (Dem., Virginia 8th District) titled "Let's change how we elect House members". In it he suggests a couple of ways it might be done:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 7320a8c53b
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 5725
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:02 am

BobPatterson wrote:
While reading the Washington Post this evening I saw an Op-Ed piece written by Representative Don Beyer (Dem., Virginia 8th District) titled "Let's change how we elect House members". In it he suggests a couple of ways it might be done:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 7320a8c53b

Thanks for sharing. That was a very interesting proposal (suitable for its own thread as well).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5758
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:12 pm

Trump has said now that since the GOP is too incompetent to come up with a workable replacement for healthcare, that they should just repeal it.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/3 ... eet-240132


This guy has to be one of the worst politicians of all time. I bet he has Professor Peabody on the line working on a Wayback machine to fix this current crisis he finds himself in.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 3376
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump has said now that since the GOP is too incompetent to come up with a workable replacement for healthcare, that they should just repeal it.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/3 ... eet-240132


This guy has to be one of the worst politicians of all time. I bet he has Professor Peabody on the line working on a Wayback machine to fix this current crisis he finds himself in.


As long as he and his peers gets his tax cut, he doesn't care about the consequences, just kick millions out of a health insurance.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Hillis
Posts: 1305
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump has said now that since the GOP is too incompetent to come up with a workable replacement for healthcare, that they should just repeal it.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/3 ... eet-240132


This guy has to be one of the worst politicians of all time. I bet he has Professor Peabody on the line working on a Wayback machine to fix this current crisis he finds himself in.


As long as he and his peers gets his tax cut, he doesn't care about the consequences, just kick millions out of a health insurance.


I recall how all his blind supporters on here were telling us what a "strong" leader he is. I never bought that pile of crap, but this proves, conclusively that he is what I always thought he was: a weak, cowardly, ignorant waste of space. T.O.M simply has no idea what real leadership means, because he's afraid to stick his own next out.

As for "T.O.M", you can guess what that means, as I was temporarily banned for what it stands for.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:35 pm

Hillis wrote:
As for "T.O.M", you can guess what that means, as I was temporarily banned for what it stands for.


Oh my, sorry to hear that. Glad you are back again.

Please send me a private message explaining T.O.M. I do crossword puzzles every day but that one has me stumped.

Cheers.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
treetreeseven
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:18 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:21 am

Hillis wrote:
This party cannot govern, period. We've seen in Kansas, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas and virtually every state the GOP controls. They purposely and consciously make life for their citizens a living hell where most can never improve their lot in life. And in D.C, they're following the same script.

This is where I part ways with the "but we need to understand them and work together!!`!~" ideas coming out after Trump's electoral college win / popular vote loss.

This bill is evil, it was designed by evil people in service of other evil people who want to screw the poor and the sick for their own personal gain.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5758
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Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:02 am

Looks Like McConnell is backing off yet another vote on trumpcare. The GOP can't seem to find the votes in the Senate, no matter how much they try to screw over Americans that need healthcare but can't afford it.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
apodino
Posts: 3148
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Here Comes TrumpCare

Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:01 am

Hillis wrote:
casinterest wrote:
This party cannot govern, period. We've seen in Kansas, Wisconsin, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas and virtually every state the GOP controls. They purposely and consciously make life for their citizens a living hell where most can never improve their lot in life. And in D.C, they're following the same script.
.

Wisconsin has actually been well run since Walker has been in office. The budget has been cleaned up, the people are happier and they have a governor who has won three statewide elections. And Texas? Seriously. Texas has one of the most booming economies in the country. Housing is going up so fast in the Metroplex, the roads are being expanded just to keep up, and tons of new shopping centers and businesses are popping up. And they can do all this without income taxes. I have lived in both states and my lot in life was improved under Walker, and it certainly has been in Texas. Kansas I agree has not been well run at all. Alabama just had their Governor resign, and I don't know much about Mississippi.

There are plenty of Blue States that aren't exactly well governed either. Connecticut is one of the Bluest states in the country, and taxes got so high that everyone is fleeing. Illinois is well documented, and while they have a Republican Governor, the recently overridden veto does nothing but kick the can down the road. And even though California temporarily solved their budget woes, they are projecting budget deficits again, and unfortunately housing has become so expensive that no one but the rich can afford to live there, which is only creating more income inequality.

It seems to me that you try to make everything a blue vs red issue, and truthfully I actually think that is meaningless in a lot of ways. Massachusetts for example is one of the bluest states in the country. Even though MA is a very progressive state, it has historically been run in a fiscally conservative manner. MA is one of the few locales that have actually had the balls to tell sports teams that if they want stadiums to pay for them themselves. Minnesota is a state that is doing pretty well. It does have a Democratic governor, but it also has good infrastructure and a network in place to support a bunch of fortune 500 companies. Washington State is another pretty well run state that is very blue. There are red states that I haven't mentioned that are well run as well. South Carolina has been very well run, and note that Boeing has built a 787 plant there. Arizona is another well run red state.

And as you said plenty of Red states are not well run, and a lot of blue states aren't either. Its not a democratic vs republican issue. At the national level, its a leadership issue and at the moment there is no leadership on either side of the aisle. Just too many people that care more about keeping cushy jobs and fundraising then on actually representing the people. And what we get instead is lobbyists running the country. And people wonder why a guy like Donald Trump got elected? (And I repeat, I did not vote for the man as he certainly doesn't provide leadership either.) The reason we cant break the cycle is because politics have become so viscious that the leaders we need who have humility don't run for office, and we get narcissists who run for office. We have one in the oval office, we would have had one if Hillary won. We had one for the past eight years. They are currently leading both parties in Congress. And sadly, a few of them are also mayors of big cities now as well.

It seems like the only place left with humble people is the Supreme Court. But they can only interpret legislation, they cannot make it.

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