https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... d-negative
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/ ... d-negative
Seems wind is still a small percentage of energy generation (around 2 pct in Europe) but on days with high winds and low energy demands that's enough to make energy prices go negative i.e. the electric company pays customers to burn up electricity for it. That happens because they don't want to shut down base-load generators and EU laws make it mandatory to use all wind/solar energy they're provided with.
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- Francoflier
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Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
It's quite interesting.
The advancement of new technologies such as renewable power has been pretty swift in the last couple of decades, and it now seems to reach the point where the current established generation and distribution system is not quite adequate to accept the level of wind and solar generation that's being produced.
So whereas generation has leaped forward, it has reached a point where further deployment will be hindered by the lack of storage facilities, which, contrary to the clan generation technology, has not known such a fast development and implementation...
I see this as a positive. It is now time to move on to the next phase, which is properly integrating those renewables into the grid and changing the regulations to match their progress.
The advancement of new technologies such as renewable power has been pretty swift in the last couple of decades, and it now seems to reach the point where the current established generation and distribution system is not quite adequate to accept the level of wind and solar generation that's being produced.
So whereas generation has leaped forward, it has reached a point where further deployment will be hindered by the lack of storage facilities, which, contrary to the clan generation technology, has not known such a fast development and implementation...
I see this as a positive. It is now time to move on to the next phase, which is properly integrating those renewables into the grid and changing the regulations to match their progress.
Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
Get paid to watch TV, run the A/C, leave the lights on, and turn up the music? Time to move to Europe!
Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
This electricity executive I met recently in the Midwest USA said their go-forward analysis has wind as the base energy, with coal/gas to assist the wind turbines as needed, until energy storage becomes practical. That is, wind is no longer the alternative. Wind is the base load.
From what I can tell, the USA has about 30 GW of steady state wind power going all the time now. That is about 30 midsize nuclear plants. If we multiply that by 10, we will have probably eliminated nonrenewable electricity, or very close to it.
From what I can tell, the USA has about 30 GW of steady state wind power going all the time now. That is about 30 midsize nuclear plants. If we multiply that by 10, we will have probably eliminated nonrenewable electricity, or very close to it.
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- nitepilot79
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Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
TWA772LR wrote:Get paid to watch TV, run the A/C, leave the lights on, and turn up the music? Time to move to Europe!
I would already be gone if I could obtain residency. Instead; it's Trump and coal
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- flyingturtle
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Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
Sadly, they're wholesale prices, and end consumers probably will never be paid for using power.
And about 20% of my electricity bill is the "grid surcharge", so I have to pay the companies that maintain the power grid.
It amazes me still today that our lighting has got so cheap. I could light my whole apartment for $30 a year, all around the clock, which is a huge step from the light bulbs we still used around 2000. And older LED lamps need a thermal socket to dissipate heat, and newer LED filament lamps dissipate heat much better.
"In a diary entry of May 1743, the president of Harvard University, the Reverend Edward Holyoake, noted that his household had spent two days making 78lb (35kg) of tallow candles.
Six months later, he noted: "Candles all gone."
And those were the summer months."
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38650976
David
And about 20% of my electricity bill is the "grid surcharge", so I have to pay the companies that maintain the power grid.
It amazes me still today that our lighting has got so cheap. I could light my whole apartment for $30 a year, all around the clock, which is a huge step from the light bulbs we still used around 2000. And older LED lamps need a thermal socket to dissipate heat, and newer LED filament lamps dissipate heat much better.
"In a diary entry of May 1743, the president of Harvard University, the Reverend Edward Holyoake, noted that his household had spent two days making 78lb (35kg) of tallow candles.
Six months later, he noted: "Candles all gone."
And those were the summer months."
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38650976
David
Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
There are frequent days when Denmark produces 100% of its electrical needs from wind turbines. On average, it's around 50%. Sure it's more expensive than a coal-powered power-plant, but I for one would like to leave a living planet to my children, their children and their children. For me that's worth a few extra bobs. For our household, the extra cost is less than 200 USD a year. Peanuts, in the grander scheme of things.
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- Revelation
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Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
flyingturtle wrote:And about 20% of my electricity bill is the "grid surcharge", so I have to pay the companies that maintain the power grid.
The slashdot link above gets in to this a bit.
Around a decade or so ago the utilities here made sure to split up their bills into electricity cost + transportation cost. It seems they fully anticipated the possibility that the electricity itself would become cheaper to generate and they wanted to be able to charge for the ability to transport electricity. As usual, businesses do what is in their own best interest, no matter how they spin it.
Some people have gotten very close to getting themselves off the grid via solar panels and storage cells, but of course they want to have the security of keeping the grid connection in case something goes wrong with their own setup. The electric companies will want to still make money off that person. It's just like the situation with phones, where everyone goes to the new mobile tech but many keep a land line just in case the cell service is down.
Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
Revelation wrote:EU laws make it mandatory to use all wind/solar energy they're provided with.
1. There is no such EU law
2. EU member states decide those policies themselves, in Germany wind generated power can be turned off, solar has to be taken up.
The real reason for prices turning negative are slow reacting fossil powered plants, mostly lignite burning ones, and nuclear ones, that are cheaper to keep running if prices turn negate for a short while than turning them off.
Last time we had that, about 90 hours in December 2013, all renewable sources combined never went above 65% of power.
Best regards
Thomas
Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
You can throttle down nuclear plants (making them less efficient in the process) but shutting them down is avoided.
Now let's not forget that electricity usage should go up a lot in the next few years, as electric vehicles replace petrol powered ones. So we will need all the electricity we can make.
With cars with big enough batteries, it might also be possible to use them as buffers in the system. Not use the car battery to power anything other than the car, I think that would be a mistake, those batteries are expensive and wear quickly. No, but let's say your car has a 500Km battery but you know you will only drive less than 100 tomorrow. Then connect your car tonight, enter that information, and the car will only be charged up to 200Km or something. Then if during the night there is excess electricity on the grid, the car can take it.
Now let's not forget that electricity usage should go up a lot in the next few years, as electric vehicles replace petrol powered ones. So we will need all the electricity we can make.
With cars with big enough batteries, it might also be possible to use them as buffers in the system. Not use the car battery to power anything other than the car, I think that would be a mistake, those batteries are expensive and wear quickly. No, but let's say your car has a 500Km battery but you know you will only drive less than 100 tomorrow. Then connect your car tonight, enter that information, and the car will only be charged up to 200Km or something. Then if during the night there is excess electricity on the grid, the car can take it.
Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
Aesma wrote:You can throttle down nuclear plants (making them less efficient in the process) but shutting them down is avoided.
I think I'm correct in saying, that any power that France does not use, the surplus power goes via the French ICT and used in the UK national grid.
Mainly used in the summer, when France has a surplus of Nuclear generated electricity. This can be up to a maximum of 2GW
The line is Bi-directional, so if the UK, has a generation surplus (Mainly in the winter from back up plant and coal fired power stations) and can be sold profitably, into the French system.
As I look at real time stats as of 17:45 11th June 2017.
The UK demand for electricity is 27.66GW
which is being supplied by...
Coal: 0.34gw (1.34%)
Nuclear 8.62GW (31.17%)
Combined Cycle Gas Turbine 4.96GW (17.93%)
Wind 6.42GW (23.21%)
Hydro 0.12GW (0.34%)
Biomass 0.75GW (2.71%)
Solar 3.21GW (11.79%)
Pumped Storage 0.38GW (1.37%)
French ICT 1.60GW (5.78%)
Dutch ICT 0.84GW (3.04%)
Irish ICT 0.11GW (0.40%)
E-W ICT 0.25GW (0.90%)
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- WIederling
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Re: So Windy in Europe That Electricity Prices Have Turned Negative
This statement is misleading.
What turns negative is the price on the spot market. i.e. (very) shortterm energy transfers.
What turns negative is the price on the spot market. i.e. (very) shortterm energy transfers.
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