Airliners.net

I'm shocked. Just shocked and appalled....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 8521299da6

To the Trump supporters among us: If true, would this be enough for you to change your opinion of President Trump?

That's a pretty long article. I don't think there are many Trump supporters that have a long enough attention span to read it. It's easier for them to just say "fake news" and move on with their lives.

Probably not. It goes straight into their psyche. The cognitive dissonance alone would make their tiny heads explode.

"But.....but......but.......whitewatertravelgatevincefosterronbrownbenghaziandheremails!!!!"

Trumpistas please note: this story is being carried by right wing rags too.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... -1.3168382

I've been reading parts of it (and gagging to the point where I set it aside for a while) and turned into CNN and MSNBC.

Well, this does make Clinton's emails look pretty unimportant, but the President can normally "unclassify" even the most important secrets for what ever reason so no impeachment.

It is probable, however, that our international partners will severely restrict what critical information will be passed to the US because Truility,mp has totally eroded trust in our ability to held secrets close. I hope that OUR briefers will censor sensitive information from the President's Daily Briefing. We cannot pull his security clearance, but we can protect our secrets from Trump's irresponsible actions.

All that is left now is to apologize to our international partners for this incompetent fool and hang on for future SNFUs and FUBARs.

Dina Powell denies the report. In case it has escaped your collective attention, the President did not simply sit in the Oval Office on his own with the Russian Foreign Minister - he was surrounded by staff and advisers.

But apparently "anonymous sources" now constitute iron-clad proof.

The problem with a story like this is because the sources are anonymous...its a very difficult thing to prove. And because of all the press Trump has gotten, he will be convicted immediately. Until this is proven, I am going to give Trump the benefit of the doubt. That being said, if this is true, he should be impeached and removed, no ifs ands or buts. If the other Russia thing is proven that the Dems want the special prosecutor on, same thing. That being said, there are a couple of reasons I am a bit skeptical of this report.

1. Was anyone else actually in the room when these two spoke, or just these two? The reason I ask this is because no one can truly know what was said unless they were there.

2. It mentions current and former officials. Again, how would a former official have any knowledge of what was going on?

Something smells fishy about this whole Russia thing though. If its true that Trump's ties to Russia rigged the election, he should be impeached. But the chorus on the whole Russia thing on the other side seems so perfectly scripted, one wonders if there is a setup here. It still defies logic that the Democrats are mad that Comey may have cost Hillary the election, but are now upset because he got fired? Not saying anything, but Hillary did have a deal with Russia in place for Russia to profit off US Uranium, and no one talks about it.

Right now I can't trust anything I hear from anyone about anything. I want facts, and we are not getting them. And I am not even sure a special prosecutor is the answer, because I don't think anyone is capable of being neutral anymore.

The great thing is that Trump is recording the Oval Office, so can release the meeting tapes.

330west wrote:

Washington Post: Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador

This is the best thing I've seen all day. Lock him up.

KLDC10 wrote:

Dina Powell denies the report. In case it has escaped your collective attention, the President did not simply sit in the Oval Office on his own with the Russian Foreign Minister - he was surrounded by staff and advisers.

But apparently "anonymous sources" now constitute iron-clad proof.

That just makes his staff and advisers as stupid as he is.

Of course anonymous sources are taken as gospel. If you want to impeach him go for it. Then try to remove him from office. If all you are going to do is continue the media propaganda machine and insult people that voted for him it's going to be a long 8 years.

KLDC10 wrote:

Dina Powell denies the report. In case it has escaped your collective attention, the President did not simply sit in the Oval Office on his own with the Russian Foreign Minister - he was surrounded by staff and advisers.

Was he? We don't know that...because our media was not allowed in.

And by the way, if we can't take the Post and other outlets at their word, why would I take it from a WH official (from a White House that loves to spin stories to their liking)? It's very simple: if they're pushing back against the Post and others, provide evidence.

KLDC10 wrote:

But apparently "anonymous sources" now constitute iron-clad proof.

Anonymous sources are meaningless unless checked out. If one outlet reports on it, it's not gonna be a big story unless other outlets confirm said story (either by speaking to all sources or confirming with the parties involved).

BestWestern wrote:

The great thing is that Trump is recording the Oval Office, so can release the meeting tapes.

Ah, Trump will not say anything about the tapes or he'll probably say that he turned them off...at any rate, he'll either confirm their existence (outrage) or he was lying all along (outrage).

apodino wrote:

Right now I can't trust anything I hear from anyone about anything. I want facts, and we are not getting them. And I am not even sure a special prosecutor is the answer, because I don't think anyone is capable of being neutral anymore.

You'll get alternative facts if you don't like facts.

As for me, I'm just waiting to read the many versions of the story from the White House and a tweet or two blaming Obama.

One train wreck after another. Everyday another bizarre situation. Trump thinks he is pissed off, he should look around at the real world and talk to the majority who voted against him. Even the Right Wing is getting shaky. They can see a disaster in the making in 2018. We know whose fannies they will try to save eventually, it will not be Trumps.

WarRI1 wrote:

One train wreck after another. Everyday another bizarre situation.

In many ways, this is about the best case outcome for the Democrats. Trump is perpetually ensnarled in conflict and unable to do anything meaningful with the legislative majority over in Congress.

But a few other points:

- Comparing this with Clinton'a home brew email server as some are doing is idiotic.

- The modus operandi for anonymous sources has got to be "distrust and verify." The BS level is at 11 and it will only get louder.

- Case in point, a WaPo contributor posted a celebratory Tweet that this is their fastest consumed story, alluding to their giant video boards of trending stories. These people have incentives that are far from getting the objective truth right the first time.

DfwRevolution wrote:

WarRI1 wrote:

One train wreck after another. Everyday another bizarre situation.

In many ways, this is about the best case outcome for the Democrats. Trump is perpetually ensnarled in conflict and unable to do anything meaningful with the legislative majority over in Congress.

But a few other points:

- Comparing this with Clinton'a home brew email server as some are doing is idiotic.

- The modus operandi for anonymous sources has got to be "distrust and verify." The BS level is at 11 and it will only get louder.

- Case in point, a WaPo contributor posted a celebratory Tweet that this is their fastest consumed story, alluding to their giant video boards of trending stories. These people have incentives that are far from getting the objective truth right the first time.

Truly a sad state of affairs for us and our country. I hope the Wolves in congress on both sides finally get together to help the people, the citizens, the taxpayers. The safety and security of the US should Trump all.

DfwRevolution wrote:

- Comparing this with Clinton'a home brew email server as some are doing is idiotic.

Why? Classified material is classified. Yes, the president alone can determine when and what to declassify, but why, of all people, to the Russians?

DfwRevolution wrote:

- The modus operandi for anonymous sources has got to be "distrust and verify." The BS level is at 11 and it will only get louder.

Then the White House can show how the articles are wrong. But name calling and tweeting only show that they've picked yet another nerve with him.

DfwRevolution wrote:

- Case in point, a WaPo contributor posted a celebratory Tweet that this is their fastest consumed story, alluding to their giant video boards of trending stories. These people have incentives that are far from getting the objective truth right the first time.

Don't act like only the non-right outlets celebrate or beat a dead horse.

Benghazi anyone?

apodino wrote:

The problem with a story like this is because the sources are anonymous...its a very difficult thing to prove. And because of all the press Trump has gotten, he will be convicted immediately. Until this is proven, I am going to give Trump the benefit of the doubt.

. . .

1. Was anyone else actually in the room when these two spoke, or just these two? The reason I ask this is because no one can truly know what was said unless they were there.

2. It mentions current and former officials. Again, how would a former official have any knowledge of what was going on?

In terms of people in the room, Trump did have his staff in the room - just not a US media photographer, only the Russian guy.

This story has exploded because someone in the room identified the huge Trump Phuck Up and rapidly relayed the problems with the US intelligence community - like the CIA. There has also been the issue of having to contact our allives and let them know just how much damage Trump caused.

Former officials do have contacts outside of the Oval Office and are often called when there are problems. Often is because of consulting needs - hell, even Nixon was contacted by Carter's advisors from time to time.

Unfortunately Trump has been such a disaster that many Republicans have given up on him. Steve Schmidt (McCain's Campaign Manager) has been very strong in his comments on Trump. This is one of the most articulate people in politics and he has zero intolerance for Trump's incompetence.

BTW, multiple media sites have also come out with this story - including the NY Times who was the first to act.

But, but...Dina has denied it! That's good enough for us !
-signed Don and Dee Plorable.

(Not that it matters but I have no respect for anyone who voted for Cheeto von F*ckstick)

KLDC10 wrote:

Dina Powell denies the report. In case it has escaped your collective attention, the President did not simply sit in the Oval Office on his own with the Russian Foreign Minister - he was surrounded by staff and advisers.

But apparently "anonymous sources" now constitute iron-clad proof.

Of course he wasn't alone, the Russian press was allowed in... Good thing he forbade the American 'fake news' from getting in. The Pravda is so much more reliable...


As for the anonymous source, I'm pretty sure that (or these) person was not in the room during the meeting. However, multiple intelligence agencies would have to be advised if such a screw up happened, so they can try to protect their informants and operatives. Quite a few people would have to be informed along the way...

...and Trump has made a bloody good job making an enemy of the entire intelligence community. (just another aspect of his overbearing personality getting in the way of intelligent behavior)

I can easily understand why insiders would risk their careers or even the courts to disclose what they see as a hostile and unstable menace. The mood at the FBI alone seems to be pretty depressing.

I'll take this piece of news with a grain of salt until there's a higher level of confirmation, but given everything else that's happened with or around Trump so far, especially when it comes to Russia, it certainly would seem to fit with the overall FUBAR that this presidency has been.

One thing is certain: Trump has enabled the renaissance of written press and investigative journalism.

KLDC10 wrote:

Dina Powell denies the report. In case it has escaped your collective attention, the President did not simply sit in the Oval Office on his own with the Russian Foreign Minister - he was surrounded by staff and advisers.

But apparently "anonymous sources" now constitute iron-clad proof.

We are talking about the guy that is stupid enough to admits to obstruction of justice live on national television.
There is just nothing to stupid to be implausible. ..

Best regards
Thomas

I'm reading speculation on Twitter that the 'unnamed Middle Eastern country' that supplied the intelligence to the US was in fact Israel, and the Israeli's have already been pissed earlier today about a faux pas committed by a senior US diplomat working on Trump's planned visit to the country.

All you really need to know about this: McMaster had an opportunity to deny the story the Washington Post put out, and he did not. One wonders why that would be.

Whatever source gave us this intelligence (and we can presume that they are considered a valuable one due to how sensitive the information has been treated), it is incredibly unlikely they will ever give us information again as long as anyone associated with Trump runs the White House. It is also quite likely that we will not get intelligence from other sources, who also fear being outed to Russia. That sort of intelligence blindness gets people killed. This is incredibly serious.

Quite frankly I won't be surprised if the "anonymous insider" is actually one of the Russians.

Tugg

tommy1808 wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

Dina Powell denies the report. In case it has escaped your collective attention, the President did not simply sit in the Oval Office on his own with the Russian Foreign Minister - he was surrounded by staff and advisers.

But apparently "anonymous sources" now constitute iron-clad proof.

We are talking about the guy that is stupid enough to admits to obstruction of justice live on national television.
There is just nothing to stupid to be implausible. ..

Best regards
Thomas

He's his own worst enemy. If this doesn't take him down I can all but guarantee it will be something else he say/does that digs his own grave, not unlike Milo and Tomi. It just depends when the GOP hits their limit of unforced errors, and after a week like this, we're steaming toward that wall at light speed.

MaverickM11 wrote:

:checkmark: He's his own worst enemy. If this doesn't take him down I can all but guarantee it will be something else he say/does that digs his own grave, not unlike Milo and Tomi. It just depends when the GOP hits their limit of unforced errors, and after a week like this, we're steaming toward that wall at light speed.

At this point it wouldn´t even be surprising if some republicans up for re-election start running on the promise of impeaching Trump ...... as a disgrace to anything republicans stand for or something like that.

best regards
Thomas

I'm curious to see what it will take for Republicans to stop protecting Trump...

They seem to put their party and own political agendas so far above the country's interests that treason and collusion might not even be enough.

I am not even surprised at all, are you truly mortified? Trump is Trump, he will not change, so the question is how everyone deals with it and in the case of ballance in the American parlementarian system, what are they going to do? If they continue to do nothing, then they are as much responsible for the situation as Trump is. So it is up to them to decide what to do......

Francoflier wrote:

They seem to put their party and own political agendas so far above the country's interests that treason and collusion might not even be enough.

From the Russian point of view it makes complete sense to get enough of the GOP under their thumb before they put them under their Trump.

best regards
Thomas

No wonder Lavrov was joking and laughing and in good Spirits. It was a mistake in first place to invite the foreign Minister into the Oval Office, if reports are true that Russian journalists Joint Lavrov, there must have been a Situation that enabled the to plant a few bugs. They must have shaken their aircraft laughing all the way home.

In Genglish, that POTUS is a Trumpeltier

But really, what is all the fuss about? If both the US and Russia are supposedly fighting ISIS what harm is there in sharing information that by now is dated? The whole has been told that there were plans to use laptops to perpetrate an attack. Saying that we heard it mentioned by someone in a hotel in Damascus is hardly a real threat.

On the other hand, if Trump said "we made it up. It isn't true but it serves a purpose to make it look as if we are tough on terrorism," that would be problematic.

PanHAM wrote:

In Genglish, that POTUS is a Trumpeltier

While my relations in Hamburg call him simply Drümpel.

The only person winning during this Trump Presidency is Melania...

She gets to be the First Lady, instead of the Third Wife!

RoySFlying wrote:

But really, what is all the fuss about? If both the US and Russia are supposedly fighting ISIS what harm is there in sharing information that by now is dated? The whole has been told that there were plans to use laptops to perpetrate an attack. Saying that we heard it mentioned by someone in a hotel in Damascus is hardly a real threat.

Exactly. No harm done here at all, some people here just hate Russia so much they don't want to see any co-operation between Trump and Putin.

salttee wrote:

Trumpistas please note: this story is being carried by right wing rags too.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... -1.3168382

Yes, News.com.au also carried this report. That's ultra-right-wing, Rupert Murdoch runs that publication.

RoySFlying wrote:

But really, what is all the fuss about? If both the US and Russia are supposedly fighting ISIS what harm is there in sharing information that by now is dated? The whole has been told that there were plans to use laptops to perpetrate an attack. Saying that we heard it mentioned by someone in a hotel in Damascus is hardly a real threat..

Why do you think information gets classified as code wort, nofor and such? To play important?

No, because some people, the dumbest assumable president obviously being one of them, don´t get that passing on information may unmask the source. Or methods. Or both. And they may blabber out information that gets this asset arrested or murdered. How do you know the source isn´t a Israeli double agent the Russians may want to get abhold of? Or the source, Israel (?), not sharing information with the US anymore, since the US can´t be trusted with them.

He very probably just killed more US citizens. Not that it matters considering how many he plans to kill for a tax break for himself....

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

No, because some people, the dumbest assumable president obviously being one of them, don´t get that passing on information may unmask the source. Or methods. Or both. And they may blabber out information that gets this asset arrested or murdered. How do you know the source isn´t a Israeli double agent the Russians may want to get abhold of? Or the source, Israel (?), not sharing information with the US anymore, since the US can´t be trusted with them.

I'm pretty sure the ISIS guys planning this stuff already knew their plan was discovered when the United States implemented the ban on laptops in cabin on board flights from certain countries. There's no way Trump telling it was indeed ISIS planning to commit such attacks would have mattered, I don't think that info deserved to be "classified" anymore.

tommy1808 wrote:

He very probably just killed more US citizens. Not that it matters considering how many he plans to kill for a tax break for himself....

I think he saved a lot of citizen of different countries by being fair and sharing the intelligence so that such attacks may not be committed in other countries either.

pvjin wrote:

Exactly. No harm done here at all, some people here just hate Russia so much they don't want to see any co-operation between Trump and Putin.

Right.... "oh, sorry Israel (if they where the source), but to improve cooperation with the Russians, we are going to share that top secret information, that you haven´t even allowed us to share with close allied nations......"

But i get Trump, when your Boss asks you a question, it is hard to say no, especially when you are the chief retreater without a spine.

best regards
Thomas

pvjin wrote:

I'm pretty sure the ISIS guys planning this stuff already knew their plan was discovered when the United States implemented the ban on laptops in cabin on board flights from certain countries. There's no way Trump telling it was indeed ISIS planning to commit such attacks would have mattered, I don't think that info deserved to be "classified" anymore.

1) it is still classified
2) Trump doesn´t have the right to unclassify it
3) the plan itself is known, that information is sufficiently whitewashed/changed to make the source untraceable. Because that is what intelligence agencies do.He apparently betrayed the source, or what people call "Sources and Methods", you know, the stuff that is never, never, never ever talked about, even among friends.

Just read National Security Council Intelligence Directive No. 11 for a start.....

I think he saved a lot of citizen of different countries by being fair and sharing the intelligence so that such attacks may not be committed in other countries either.

Wrong, he got an important intelligence source on ISIS to dry up, probably for good.

It seems like lots of what he is doing, is designed to help ISIS to get stronger, he knows after all that a big terror strike on US soil is just about the only thing that can keep him from being impeached in the long run.

best regards
Thomas

No harm done, if you are so ignorant you've no clue about the real world, how intel works, how allies interact, or anything much at all beyond being taken in by such an obvious con man (his whole life - won't say adult life as he has never acted like one).

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... act-allies

The previous GOP incumbent could be lazy, he brushed off intel on how Bin Laden was 'determined to strike the US' (had in fact already tried with the LAX bomb plot in late 2000), that he told them 'don't worry, you've covered your ass'. Then went to play golf.
While I accept that by then, Aug 2001, it might well have been too late to stop what was about to happen, we then fast forward to 2003 when Bush got rather vexed about Iraq not being simple like Cheney told him it would be, 'Sunnis and Shia's, I thought they were all goddam Muslims!'
And that POTUS is a mix of FDR, JFK and Churchill, compared to Trump. That POTUS at least understood how the US government works, understood checks and balances, did not threaten a free press, didn't sulk when a judge ruled against something his admin did accepted it and did not start slinging racial slurs at the judge.

If anyone except the the pro Putin troll here, who would never go live under his hero's rule, like all of what Stalin called 'useful idiots' in the West, that Russia's policy in the Mid East or pretty much anywhere, is helpful to the US and it's allies, you are sorely deluded.

Right.... "oh, sorry Israel (if they where the source), but to improve cooperation with the Russians, we are going to share that top secret information, that you haven´t even allowed us to share with close allied nations......"

As if Israel actually gave a damn about fighting ISIS anyway. They are too busy hurting Assad and Shia militants in favour of KSA Wahhabists to do anything about ISIS.

It seems like lots of what he is doing, is designed to help ISIS to get stronger, he knows after all that a big terror strike on US soil is just about the only thing that can keep him from being impeached in the long run.

Previous two presidents already did their fair share to help ISIS by first invading Iraq, and then later supporting various militant organizations in countries like Libya and Syria.

At least Trump seems to have a good stance on migration, after all rational migration policies are factually the easiest way to prevent terror attacks from happening in the future.

GDB wrote:

If anyone except the the pro Putin troll here, who would never go live under his hero's rule, like all of what Stalin called 'useful idiots' in the West, that Russia's policy in the Mid East or pretty much anywhere, is helpful to the US and it's allies, you are sorely deluded.

Russia's policy in the Middle-East is much less harmful to ordinary Europeans and Americans than that of the US and its allies. Anybody capable of independent thought can see that western support to KSA Wahhabists, and the tendency to support Islamists over more stable secular dictators, has caused a lot of chaos, terrorism and misery that has very much hurt ordinary Western people.

Only an absolute fool would still buy into the narrative where interests of the Western political elites and military businesses are the same as interests of ordinary Western people.

tommy1808 wrote:

the dumbest assumable president obviously being one of them, don´t get that passing on information may unmask the source.

How do you know that happened? We only have the reports circulating in the media that emanate from an "unnamed source". The problem with unnamed sources is that we have no way of knowing how reliable they are. Yet we choose to believe them simply because the media claims it to be true.

According to the Guardian "The report said that while Trump did not describe the specific source used to gather the intelligence" and quotes others who were present as saying, "“During that exchange, the nature of specific threats were discussed, but they did not discuss sources, methods or military operations.”

Now, who to believe?

RoySFlying wrote:

But really, what is all the fuss about? If both the US and Russia are supposedly fighting ISIS what harm is there in sharing information that by now is dated? The whole has been told that there were plans to use laptops to perpetrate an attack. Saying that we heard it mentioned by someone in a hotel in Damascus is hardly a real threat.

Because Russia is not really that committed to fighting ISIS. Their primary interest in Syria is propping up Assad. On occasion, that goal will align with attacking ISIS (if, for instance, the Syrian rebels and ISIS happen to be working in the same area), and then they will be happy to treat ISIS as collateral damage. But that should not be confused with an actual desire to get actively involved in fighting ISIS, which is something they do not really have. So from the beginning your argument is flawed.

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Russia was actually a partner in the fight against ISIS. It's still really bad. Our source gave the information to us on the agreement that it would not be revealed to anyone (it wasn't even widespread within the US government, and wasn't shared with our allies). Trump violated that trust. Our source now has to worry about Russia figuring out who they are and applying influence to them (and don't think they won't try). Other sources will now worry about the same thing, and since US intelligence professionals can't say to sources "don't worry, we won't share this information with the president" and have any shred of credibility, we're not going to get that information. And that's incredibly dangerous.

RoySFlying wrote:

According to the Guardian "The report said that while Trump did not describe the specific source used to gather the intelligence" and quotes others who were present as saying, "“During that exchange, the nature of specific threats were discussed, but they did not discuss sources, methods or military operations.”

Now, who to believe?

Nothing the Guardian said contradicts what the Post alleges.

RoySFlying wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

the dumbest assumable president obviously being one of them, don´t get that passing on information may unmask the source.

How do you know that happened?

Because they call it "code word material", and protecting the source is the only reason to put information in that bucket, since it cuts down the number of people that are provy to the information like nothing else. It also means that the source is so important, that the death of ones own citizens is a acceptable price to pay to protect it.

Why do i believe it? Probabilities, since as a first approximation anything coming out of Trumps mouth is a lie, we can assume this one is as well. We are talking about the man that can´t even keep obstruction of justice a secret for a week.

best regards
Thomas

Mir wrote:

Nothing the Guardian said contradicts what the Post alleges.

Well.. you are assuming that Trumps fans are aware of the difference between "discuss(ing) sources, methods or military operations" and giving information that can be used to identify sources, methods or military operations. Since they are not, they just see "not discussed", so nothing happened.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

Mir wrote:

Nothing the Guardian said contradicts what the Post alleges.

Well.. you are assuming that Trumps fans are aware of the difference between "discuss(ing) sources, methods or military operations" and giving information that can be used to identify sources, methods or military operations. Since they are not, they just see "not discussed", so nothing happened.

best regards
Thomas

Well, something definitely happened: https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/sta ... 8203379712

tommy1808 wrote:

It also means that the source is so important, that the death of ones own citizens is a acceptable price to pay to protect it.

What's the point of intelligence in the first place if it's not used to protect ordinary American people?

Mir wrote:

Tell, something definitely happened: https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/sta ... 8203379712

Well, he just

1) confessed to commit treason against a US ally
2) He demonstrated ones more he doesn´t know anything by saying he has the right to disclose the information. Which he has not, since it ain´t US intelligence.

best regards
Thomas

pvjin wrote:

What's the point of intelligence in the first place if it's not used to protect ordinary American people?

Since you are inspiring to be a historian one day, you may want to read up on Churchill and Coventry, and consider the consequences of saving Coventry, and thereby telling the Germans that their encryption is broken. Maybe you can figure that out on your own.

Trump may just handed the Atlantic to the U-Boats. Well done!

best regards
Thomas

If you do not see Russia as the enemy, he did nothing wrong.