LMP737
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Liberty University 2017

Sun May 14, 2017 5:10 pm

Trump delivered a speech at Liberty University's 2017 graduation. My favorite line from the speech was "As long as I am your president, no one is ever going to stop you from practicing your faith,". Oh yes, the old christian victim hood mentality that has taken hold in the evangelical crowd. Hate to break the news to them someone having the same rights as they do and not having the ability to deny them those rights does not mean your ability to worship is threatened.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-to-watc ... nt-speech/
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MaverickM11
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Sun May 14, 2017 6:45 pm

It's fun watching Christianity drop any pretense of morals or right and wrong and just go full on vengeful money/pussy grabbin led by any grifter with a sham university, be it Trump or Falwell or any of the dozens of others. The church has been on a brisk slide for years and I think colluding with Trump will be seen as an inflection point where it went from decline to full uncoordinated stall.
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ltbewr
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Sun May 14, 2017 7:40 pm

Liberty University is probably about one of the few colleges Trump would be welcomed at with no protests. Even Bernie Sanders spoke last year to the students at one of their regular speakers series program and was politely treated. I do find it appalling that Liberty U. would invite the hypocrite-in-chief that is Trump, but they figure he supports the Republicans' returning of welfare and health care back to faith groups, putting in anti-legal abortion Judges, transferring public monies for schools to Christian faith group for them to run charter schools and retreat from GLBTQ rights.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Sun May 14, 2017 8:02 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
It's fun watching Christianity drop any pretense of morals or right and wrong and just go full on vengeful money/pussy grabbin led by any grifter with a sham university, be it Trump or Falwell or any of the dozens of others. The church has been on a brisk slide for years and I think colluding with Trump will be seen as an inflection point where it went from decline to full uncoordinated stall.


It might be difficult to understand that Liberty University, activist evangelicals, or the religious right (reich?) do not represent "The Church" and that it is inappropriate to tar all of religion or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.

Liberty University along with a very few others such as Oral Roberts, are an aberration in the United States. Jerry Falwell used to brag that Liberty U. taught evolution so that everyone could pass standardized tests in the subject, but that not one graduate of Liberty "believed" in it.

Unfortunately, there is no way to prevent LU from using the word university in its name.
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johns624
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 pm

One of the administrators (desk person) at my local Chase bank told me that she is a recent grad of Liberty...she was dumb as dirt.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 12:37 am

ltbewr wrote:
Liberty University is probably about one of the few colleges Trump would be welcomed at with no protests.

Well of course! He doesn't like critics and you heard what he said about critics. I found that part hilarious, he criticizes everyone he doesn't agree with/doesn't agree with him.

Tugg
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 12:56 am

BobPatterson wrote:
It might be difficult to understand that Liberty UniversityISIS, activist evangelicals Islamist, or the religious right (reich?) extremists do not represent "The Church" Islam and that it is inappropriate to tar all of religion or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.

Tell me if that is also true.
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HOMER71
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 1:01 am

ltbewr wrote:
Liberty University is probably about one of the few colleges Trump would be welcomed at with no protests. Even Bernie Sanders spoke last year to the students at one of their regular speakers series program and was politely treated.


Wow, Liberty Univ. is more of a bastion of free speech than UC-Berkeley...
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 1:18 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
It might be difficult to understand that Liberty UniversityISIS, activist evangelicals Islamist, or the religious right (reich?) extremists do not represent "The Church" Islam and that it is inappropriate to tar all of religion or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.

Tell me if that is also true.


I would rephrase it something like this:

It might be difficult to understand that ISIS, the Taliban, and other exponents of extreme Islam do not represent "normative" Islam, and it is inappropriate to tar all of Islam or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.

I might modify that statement after speaking with Islamic scholars about appropriate wording.
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LMP737
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 2:15 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
It's fun watching Christianity drop any pretense of morals or right and wrong and just go full on vengeful money/pussy grabbin led by any grifter with a sham university, be it Trump or Falwell or any of the dozens of others. The church has been on a brisk slide for years and I think colluding with Trump will be seen as an inflection point where it went from decline to full uncoordinated stall.


Show me an evangelical Christian and I will show you someone who cheats on his wife, on his taxes, lines his pockets with other peoples money, surfs the net for porn, does drugs with a male prostitute etc.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 3:53 am

LMP737 wrote:
Show me an evangelical Christian and I will show you someone who cheats on his wife, on his taxes, lines his pockets with other peoples money, surfs the net for porn, does drugs with a male prostitute etc.


Utter and absolute nonsense. I doubt you know any evangelicals. With your attitudes they'd steer a course to avoid you.
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LMP737
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 4:27 am

BobPatterson wrote:

Utter and absolute nonsense. I doubt you know any evangelicals. With your attitudes they'd steer a course to avoid you.


Google Jim Bakker, Joel Olsten, Ken Haggard, Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart etc, etc. Or just google preacher, gay, fraud, hypocrisy. Also the fact that Trump was invited to LU. Or that 80% of white evangelicals voted for a man as "un-Christain" as they come shows the absolute hypocrisy and fraud of the evangelical movement.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 4:47 am

johns624 wrote:
One of the administrators (desk person) at my local Chase bank told me that she is a recent grad of Liberty...she was dumb as dirt.

I can't fathom what one does with an LU degree...minimum wage ticket taker at the Ark Encounter?

BobPatterson wrote:
It might be difficult to understand that Liberty University, activist evangelicals, or the religious right (reich?) do not represent "The Church" and that it is inappropriate to tar all of religion or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.

Of course not all Christians are like that, but of those Christians that are vociferous and in public positions, it sure seems to be a consistent theme. And they make it a practice to tar any group with a broad brush as long as it fits their agenda...
HOMER71 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Liberty University is probably about one of the few colleges Trump would be welcomed at with no protests. Even Bernie Sanders spoke last year to the students at one of their regular speakers series program and was politely treated.


Wow, Liberty Univ. is more of a bastion of free speech than UC-Berkeley...

Sheep don't tend to have opinions of their own, especially when they're prohibited by Tinkie-Winkie Jr. Then again when was the last time a liberal version of Milo Y was invited to speak at LU? Or a left wing Richard Spencer?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 4:53 am

LMP737 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

Utter and absolute nonsense. I doubt you know any evangelicals. With your attitudes they'd steer a course to avoid you.


Google Jim Bakker, Joel Olsten, Ken Haggard, Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart etc, etc. Or just google preacher, gay, fraud, hypocrisy. Also the fact that Trump was invited to LU. Or that 80% of white evangelicals voted for a man as "un-Christain" as they come shows the absolute hypocrisy and fraud of the evangelical movement.


Those are not people you know, personally. Go out and meet some. Relatively few evangelicals are like the people you have named.

Come to think of it, relatively few Republicans deserve to be classified with Donald Trump.

By the way, did you notice the strength (or lack of it) of applause during Mr. Trump's speech at Liberty U.?

I suspect that few evangelicals consider Mr. Trump to be one of their own.
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salttee
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 5:36 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Those are not people you know, personally. Go out and meet some. Relatively few evangelicals are like the people you have named.

That is unfair, he provides citations and you ignore them because they don't meet your criteria.
BobPatterson wrote:
Relatively few evangelicals are like the people you have named.

I have known (only) two Evangelicals, one cheats on his wife and the other is a disreputable fraud when it comes to money.

How many Evangelicals do you know, and how do you know them, or how well do you know them? If you don't come across to them as "safe" they will for sure put on their goody goody act for you; they are hypocrites above all else.

I suggest that you go to Central America, Guatemala in particular, and witness first hand the sleazy tactics they use to "steal" converts from the Catholics; they use rock bands and fireworks displays in small towns to warm up the crowd for their solicitors who work the crowd after the show. This crap is funded by North Americans or by the Moonies; they target barely literate villagers and their efforts are sanctioned by the corrupt government as a means of silencing demands for justice made by some of the Catholic hierarchy. This is pure political manipulation of the people under the name of "god".
 
tommy1808
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 6:34 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Those are not people you know, personally. Go out and meet some. Relatively few evangelicals are like the people you have named.


So, why aren´t the others on television, radio and such making perfectly clear that they want nothing to do with those nutcases? Why aren´t they ousted?
Muslims are expected to protest ISIS pretty much 24/7, why aren´t evangelicals in the streets protesting?

Come to think of it, relatively few Republicans deserve to be classified with Donald Trump.


So, where are all the "I am a republican and Trump is an embarrassment" signs at ralleys and marches against Trump? When you google "republicans protesting trump" you get quite the opposite of what i would expect to see....

As long as you remain a member of the republican party, without expressing loud and clear that you don´t agree with Donald Trump or Paul Ryan and his merry men just about 24/7, you are classified with Trump. That doesn´t necessarily mean you personally, but you hear aweful little about republican party members making clear they are not in bed with Trump.
And if "relatively few"(!) Republicans want to be classified with him, how did he get to be elected? Massive voter fraud in the republican primaries?

Even the first attempt of killing half a million or so US citizens by neglect had pretty high approval ratings among republicans: https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-de ... aseID=2443

And i am sorry, but if you support a bill like that, despicable is the nicest word i can find for such party members. I can get why people stay on when something turns evil, the usually hope they can turn it around, but it would be interesting to know what you are personally doing to dig the GOP out of the ethical hole they are working on, before they breach the ceiling of hell.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 6:57 am

salttee wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Those are not people you know, personally. Go out and meet some. Relatively few evangelicals are like the people you have named.

That is unfair, he provides citations and you ignore them because they don't meet your criteria.
BobPatterson wrote:
Relatively few evangelicals are like the people you have named.

I have known (only) two Evangelicals, one cheats on his wife and the other is a disreputable fraud when it comes to money.

How many Evangelicals do you know, and how do you know them, or how well do you know them? If you don't come across to them as "safe" they will for sure put on their goody goody act for you; they are hypocrites above all else.

I suggest that you go to Central America, Guatemala in particular, and witness first hand the sleazy tactics they use to "steal" converts from the Catholics; they use rock bands and fireworks displays in small towns to warm up the crowd for their solicitors who work the crowd after the show. This crap is funded by North Americans or by the Moonies; they target barely literate villagers and their efforts are sanctioned by the corrupt government as a means of silencing demands for justice made by some of the Catholic hierarchy. This is pure political manipulation of the people under the name of "god".


My wife and I have many family members who are evangelicals. One of my grandsons is a minister and one of his sisters is currently a missionary in New Zealand. I have a number of neighbors who are evangelicals. I probably know personally more than 100 evangelicals. None of the ones I know are like the two you claim to know.

I agree with you regarding the actions of many evangelical missionaries. In fact, I am not proud of the work my granddaughter is doing.

I also think that many, perhaps the majority, of evangelicals are unwilling to face the realities of science, especially those who believe in a young earth, six-day creation, rejection of biological evolution, and much other nonsense.

Despite all this, The statement in post #10 by LMP737 is absurd in the way he tars all evangelicals regarding cheating, porn, drugs and male prostitutes.

If you go along with his statement than you also are absurd, or worse.
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seahawk
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:08 am

Be proud of your granddaughter, she is doing the work of the Lord.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:30 am

seahawk wrote:
Be proud of your granddaughter, she is doing the work of the Lord.


I don't know whether you are being sincere or perhaps making a joke.

What she is doing is targeting for "conversion" some of the many Israelis who visit New Zealand to hike in the mountains and along the coasts.

I happen to think of that "work" as an abomination, and not "of the Lord".
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Dutchy
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:35 am

seahawk wrote:
Be proud of your granddaughter, she is doing the work of the Lord.


Whom is this lord you are talking of?
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:51 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Be proud of your granddaughter, she is doing the work of the Lord.


I don't know whether you are being sincere or perhaps making a joke.

What she is doing is targeting for "conversion" some of the many Israelis who visit New Zealand to hike in the mountains and along the coasts.

I happen to think of that "work" as an abomination, and not "of the Lord".


Whatever you think about the purpose, she is devoted to something she thinks is good and she does it selflessly. Much better than following some celebrity on Twitter and only caring about newest fashion trends. I would agree that the people who came up with this mission being necessary are misguiding their followers and that there are many social projects which do need the help and energy of those young people much more, but in the end it does not take away the fact, that those young people are willing to give their time and energy to save others, even if those might not need saving.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:54 am

seahawk wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Be proud of your granddaughter, she is doing the work of the Lord.


I don't know whether you are being sincere or perhaps making a joke.

What she is doing is targeting for "conversion" some of the many Israelis who visit New Zealand to hike in the mountains and along the coasts.

I happen to think of that "work" as an abomination, and not "of the Lord".


Whatever you think about the purpose, she is devoted to something she thinks is good and she does it selflessly. Much better than following some celebrity on Twitter and only caring about newest fashion trends. I would agree that the people who came up with this mission being necessary are misguiding their followers and that there are many social projects which do need the help and energy of those young people much more, but in the end it does not take away the fact, that those young people are willing to give their time and energy to save others, even if those might not need saving.


Save? Does she have medical training?
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seahawk
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 8:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

I don't know whether you are being sincere or perhaps making a joke.

What she is doing is targeting for "conversion" some of the many Israelis who visit New Zealand to hike in the mountains and along the coasts.

I happen to think of that "work" as an abomination, and not "of the Lord".


Whatever you think about the purpose, she is devoted to something she thinks is good and she does it selflessly. Much better than following some celebrity on Twitter and only caring about newest fashion trends. I would agree that the people who came up with this mission being necessary are misguiding their followers and that there are many social projects which do need the help and energy of those young people much more, but in the end it does not take away the fact, that those young people are willing to give their time and energy to save others, even if those might not need saving.


Save? Does she have medical training?


In the end it is no different to people working a homeless shelter or doing other volunteer social work, when it comes to the motivation of the individual. The practical worth might be open to discussion.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 8:05 am

seahawk wrote:
Whatever you think about the purpose, she is devoted to something she thinks is good and she does it selflessly.


how do you know if someone is going on a Mission selflessly, out of sense or duty or simply to buy a place in heaven?

Much better than following some celebrity on Twitter and only caring about newest fashion trends.


wrong, following a celebrity doesn´t hurt anyone, mission can very well do that.

seahawk wrote:
In the end it is no different to people working a homeless shelter or doing other volunteer social work, when it comes to the motivation of the individual. The practical worth might be open to discussion.


"Missionaries" are about as socially valuable as the average grifter or fraud. You can do good things while you are on your mission, but you can do those very well without being crazy.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 8:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
Save? Does she have medical training?


No, but her mother does (RN, runs a dialysis center). Of course, mother influenced (brainwashed?) her kids. My son, the father, was also complicit.

Short story. My dad came from a Greek Orthodox family, my mom from a Jewish Orthodox one. Oy vey! Descent in Judaism is through the mother, so to Jews I'm a bona fide Jew.

My wife comes home from bible study and tells me the pastor asked that members of the class pray for him to be successful at a coming appointment in leading a Jew to "salvation".

I hit the ceiling. I probably said she should tell that jerk, Pastor P.P.P., that I would never say a nice thing about him again.

Next week at bible study, Rev. Mac is doing the teaching, and my wife reported that I was a Jew and upset about Pastor P.P.P. targeting Jews.

Rev. Mac (a true scientist research chemist) was a wise man. He said something like: "Well, Brother Patterson is a Jew, and they're God's Chosen People, and I'm not about to go messing with them!"

And yes, Rev. Mac was an evangelical. And a fine man.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 8:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
"Missionaries" are about as socially valuable as the average grifter or fraud. You can do good things while you are on your mission, but you can do those very well without being crazy.


Albert Schweitzer was a medical missionary who could not have built a hospital complex in Gabon, Africa without the aid and support of missionary societies.

Hard to knock someone who very much deserved the Nobel Peace Prize that he was awarded.
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tommy1808
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 9:36 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Albert Schweitzer was a medical missionary who could not have built a hospital complex in Gabon, Africa without the aid and support of missionary societies.

Hard to knock someone who very much deserved the Nobel Peace Prize that he was awarded.


No. His attempt to work as a (medical) Missionary was first turned down, since he was a Lutheran aka he didn´t believe the right stuf and started of his career on his own dime. So, he won his, in deed well deserved, nobel despite those societies, not because of them.

Of course that could have been done without the religious nonsense in the mix. Missionary societies just divert funds from things being worthwile, best to hope for is that they spend close to 100% on doing good instead of wasting it on bibles, churches and priest without real world skills.

Albert Schweizer got his Nobel for his medical work, not for being a missionary. But as a theologian he was also quite progressive, doubted the existence of an historical Jesus and pointed out that todays Christianity has not much to do with 1st century Christians....

best regards
Thomas
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 11:09 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Rev. Mac (a true scientist research chemist) was a wise man.

I admire scientists who are also strong believers. They face the ultimate test and they know when to preach and when to say "that's not what science says".

BobPatterson wrote:
He said something like: "Well, Brother Patterson is a Jew, and they're God's Chosen People, and I'm not about to go messing with them!"
.[/quote]
This should be concerning. So, he won't mess with you because you're a Jew? The ideal response would have been something along the lines of "we're all God's children and we must treat each other with respect".
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MaverickM11
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 12:16 pm

salttee wrote:
I have known (only) two Evangelicals, one cheats on his wife and the other is a disreputable fraud when it comes to money.

Some, I assume, are good people. But I doubt it, because they do stuff like this all the time:

http://www.statesman.com/news/update-te ... JCErJsJkJ/

Evangelicals would literally prefer an orphan rot in the state's "care" than end up in a loving household they don't approve of--that means ruining 2-3 lives because of their "sincerely held beliefs". They make Cruella de Vil look like a humanitarian.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 6:49 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
No. His attempt to work as a (medical) Missionary was first turned down, since he was a Lutheran aka he didn´t believe the right stuf and started of his career on his own dime. So, he won his, in deed well deserved, nobel despite those societies, not because of them.


See the Wikipedia page on Schweitzer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Schweitzer

"In 1912, now armed with a medical degree, Schweitzer made a definite proposal to go as a medical doctor to work at his own expense in the Paris Missionary Society's mission at Lambaréné on the Ogooué river, in what is now Gabon, in Africa (then a French colony). He refused to attend a committee to inquire into his doctrine, but met each committee member personally and was at last accepted. Through concerts and other fund-raising, he was ready to equip a small hospital"

This accords with what I read many years ago in two biographies. If I remember correctly, one was written by him.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:01 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
He said something like: "Well, Brother Patterson is a Jew, and they're God's Chosen People, and I'm not about to go messing with them!"


This should be concerning. So, he won't mess with you because you're a Jew? The ideal response would have been something along the lines of "we're all God's children and we must treat each other with respect".


You miss the point which is a bit nuanced.

It is possible to be respectful while proselytizing. Evangelicals believe their duty impels them to proselytize (evangelize).

What Rev. Mac was really saying was "The Jews have their own deal with God and it's not my job to butt in on that arrangement. I won't try to proselytize them. In God's House there are many mansions.......".
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salttee
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:32 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
It is possible to be respectful while proselytizing. Evangelicals believe their duty impels them to proselytize (evangelize).

What Rev. Mac was really saying was "The Jews have their own deal with God and it's not my job to butt in on that arrangement. I won't try to proselytize them. In God's House there are many mansions.......".

IMO proselytizing is or should be a criminal activity. It is none of Rev Mac's business what anyone outside of his group of friends believes. His "respect" for Judaism is obviously a result of the Jewish community's potential for blowback if he attempts to attack them, nothing more. There is no "god" so there is no "god's house", it is all bullshit which provides employment for religious hierarchies.

If anyone wants to believe in anything, that's fine with me as well as the US constitution, but going on the offensive and attempting to solicit the naive into someone's game is offensive. And "offensive" pretty much describes evangelicals' behavior.

Do what you want; but leave others alone.
 
LMP737
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:46 pm

BobPatterson wrote:

I suspect that few evangelicals consider Mr. Trump to be one of their own.


And that's why 80% of them voted for him.
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Flighty
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 7:53 pm

HOMER71 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Liberty University is probably about one of the few colleges Trump would be welcomed at with no protests. Even Bernie Sanders spoke last year to the students at one of their regular speakers series program and was politely treated.


Wow, Liberty Univ. is more of a bastion of free speech than UC-Berkeley...


How humiliating for Berkeley.

That's the thing. Before you insult people as ignorant, make sure they aren't outperforming you. That was the whole problem with Trump versus Clinton. Trump's side was ignorant, run by fools... but what does that make the Clinton campaign?

Trump doesn't understand economics, yet his platform has changed the analysis of policies. GDP is irrelevant. It is about the median person's living standard. GDP can plunge 10%. If the median person improves, that is a good policy. Many trade deals fail to make voters happy. So they are bad!

Trump doesn't understand diplomacy, yet he seems to be doing as well as the Obama Clinton dream team. How embarrassing for people of their intellect!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 8:01 pm

salttee wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
It is possible to be respectful while proselytizing. Evangelicals believe their duty impels them to proselytize (evangelize).

What Rev. Mac was really saying was "The Jews have their own deal with God and it's not my job to butt in on that arrangement. I won't try to proselytize them. In God's House there are many mansions.......".

IMO proselytizing is or should be a criminal activity. It is none of Rev Mac's business what anyone outside of his group of friends believes. His "respect" for Judaism is obviously a result of the Jewish community's potential for blowback if he attempts to attack them, nothing more. There is no "god" so there is no "god's house", it is all bullshit which provides employment for religious hierarchies.

If anyone wants to believe in anything, that's fine with me as well as the US constitution, but going on the offensive and attempting to solicit the naive into someone's game is offensive. And "offensive" pretty much describes evangelicals' behavior.

Do what you want; but leave others alone.


What is intellectually challenging to me, how can you condemn all other religions and atheist, if you know if you believe in the Christian God, you reject 99% of all other Gods (or actually 99,99999%). And how do you know you must have the absolute truth and all the others are dead wrong? And, yes, I was raised a Christian as well, so I know a bit about that religion, but not everything.

Are the Evangelical Christians also the persons whom believe the world is 6.000years old and humans walk the earth with dinosaurs? Because I find that notion just hilarious. Everybody can believe whatever he or she wants, but don't impose your believes on someone else.
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Dutchy
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 8:06 pm

HOMER71 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Liberty University is probably about one of the few colleges Trump would be welcomed at with no protests. Even Bernie Sanders spoke last year to the students at one of their regular speakers series program and was politely treated.


Wow, Liberty Univ. is more of a bastion of free speech than UC-Berkeley...


Bollucks. Can an advocate of abortion speak there? Or abolishment of religion? What about LGBT rights? UC-Berkeley did want her to speak there, but some external forces let them take security above this speech. No right is absolute in all circumstances. Don't be daft, no comparisons between the two.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 8:50 pm

salttee wrote:
There is no "god" so there is no "god's house", it is all bullshit which provides employment for religious hierarchies.


You sound pretty firm in your belief in no God or gods. Do you preach this message to others?

How do you investigate the supernatural? Or do you simply deny that such a thing can exist?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
salttee
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 10:59 pm

No, I don't preach it to others.
Yes I deny that there is any such thing as "supernatural", when asked.
Mostly I just humor people who believe in nonsense. Who am I to pull away someone else's security blanket?
 
Hillis
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 11:09 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It's fun watching Christianity drop any pretense of morals or right and wrong and just go full on vengeful money/pussy grabbin led by any grifter with a sham university, be it Trump or Falwell or any of the dozens of others. The church has been on a brisk slide for years and I think colluding with Trump will be seen as an inflection point where it went from decline to full uncoordinated stall.


It might be difficult to understand that Liberty University, activist evangelicals, or the religious right (Reich?) do not represent "The Church" and that it is inappropriate to tar all of religion or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.


I agree 100%. But the problem is that people at Liberty or Bob Jones, believe they do. They believe they and those like them are the only true Christians. Do they actually believe that? Hell if I know. But it lets them use God and Christ as a pretext to promote bigotry, ignorance, and hatred. while singing "Jesus Loves Me" every Sunday. The worst crimes in the history of mankind have been In The Name Of God. Islam is only the latest in a long and distinguished line of such ignominy.

I was raised Catholic. I still believe in God and the words of Jesus. I don't hold my faith over anyone or shove it down their throats. I left The Church years ago as I was tired of the politics and some of the ways things were done. I have never joined another Church, and I doubt I ever will. I've always felt one's faith or one's religion is for personal salvation, not to make law in a free, Constitutional Democracy.
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apodino
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Mon May 15, 2017 11:43 pm

Hillis wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It's fun watching Christianity drop any pretense of morals or right and wrong and just go full on vengeful money/pussy grabbin led by any grifter with a sham university, be it Trump or Falwell or any of the dozens of others. The church has been on a brisk slide for years and I think colluding with Trump will be seen as an inflection point where it went from decline to full uncoordinated stall.


It might be difficult to understand that Liberty University, activist evangelicals, or the religious right (Reich?) do not represent "The Church" and that it is inappropriate to tar all of religion or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.


I agree 100%. But the problem is that people at Liberty or Bob Jones, believe they do. They believe they and those like them are the only true Christians. Do they actually believe that? Hell if I know. But it lets them use God and Christ as a pretext to promote bigotry, ignorance, and hatred. while singing "Jesus Loves Me" every Sunday. The worst crimes in the history of mankind have been In The Name Of God. Islam is only the latest in a long and distinguished line of such ignominy.

I was raised Catholic. I still believe in God and the words of Jesus. I don't hold my faith over anyone or shove it down their throats. I left The Church years ago as I was tired of the politics and some of the ways things were done. I have never joined another Church, and I doubt I ever will. I've always felt one's faith or one's religion is for personal salvation, not to make law in a free, Constitutional Democracy.


I don't agree with you on a lot of things Hillis as you well know, but your post actually makes some good points. As a practicing Catholic myself, I certainly do not believe I am holier than holy. Far from it. If I was Holier than Holy, I wouldn't even need to go to church. I don't go because I am a saint, I go because I am a sinner. Faith and Religion are first and foremost as you say, for our salvation. That gets forgotten. I never force my faith on anyone either. If I truly want to get people to participate, the best thing I can do is live my life as a great example and in a good way that puts a positive light on my faith. Shoving it down someones throat is not ok. Sadly, politicians on both sides love to shove things down our throat (I am not even talking strictly about religious stuff, but making it as a general statement)

And I take a lot of heat from these so called Christians for my own faith. Which makes no sense because the way I see it, these people ignore the very bible they proclaim to follow. If non believers actually talked to me about my faith, I think they would be shocked at some of the things I believe in. For example, I find many parts of the Bible to be so Erotic, it can make 50 shades of grey look PG rated. If you don't believe me, read Song of Songs.
 
luckyone
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Tue May 16, 2017 12:19 am

I've no idea what anyone else's experiences have been, but places like Liberty terrify me. They're religious in name only, and serve as thinly veiled political organizations and personality cults, and they have very low graduation rates. I went to a small, private Christian school that operated on many of the same dogmatic foundations as Liberty. If you can sort through the self-serving righteousness and phoniness, you figure out what's going on around you, and the hypocrisy and malevolence is mind-boggling. A few of my classmates went to Liberty, and if they wanted to, they wouldn't be able to find work outside of church organizations or private religious schools (both ended up being music teachers at said schools). That said, they did recently receive accreditation for their DO school, and I'm curious how their students interact in a clinical setting.

Another friend went to a similar institution, Pensacola Christian College, and decided halfway through her first term that she was in the twilight zone and left. (In a very odd twist of fate, my Bible instructor in middle school also went to PCC, and several years later propositioned the above-mentioned friend for no strings attached sex). One's entire day is directed and large gatherings like political rallies are mandatory attendance. Members of the opposite sex are discouraged from speaking to each other and unchaperoned interaction is prohibited, as are women in pants. Some sidewalks were off limits to you depending on your gender. They received lectures about the dangers of "eye kissing," she had to have her parents' consent to leave campus,and while she was there at least once a month a few people would be expelled for drinking. I say all this to make the point that you're not dealing with a rational organization when you deal with these people. I have no doubt that many students at Liberty or its ilk are there because they believe they're doing the right thing. I also know for a fact that many more are there because they're not permitted to be anywhere else.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Tue May 16, 2017 1:27 am

apodino wrote:
I never force my faith on anyone either. If I truly want to get people to participate, the best thing I can do is live my life as a great example and in a good way that puts a positive light on my faith.


I am not a "believer" in any commonly understood sense. I sometimes have compared myself to Thomas Jefferson's form of Deism, but as he didn't have the benefit of reading Darwin, the comparison might be inappropriate.

Jefferson had, as I have done, studied the bible. He excised from it almost everything except the words attributed to Jesus.

I don't go quite that far for I find words of wisdom in both the Hebrew and Greek bibles that are worth remembering.

It sounds to me, based on your statement above, that you have taken to heart the words of 1 Peter 3:15.

Not many people are aware that the United States government published "Jefferson's Bible" in 1904, giving copies to all Representatives and Senators. Newly elected Senators received a copy until supplies ran out in the 1950s.

The text may be found on the Internet: http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf

I have a printed copy by Henry Holt & Co. (1995).
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Tue May 16, 2017 3:06 am

BobPatterson wrote:
It might be difficult to understand that Liberty University, activist evangelicals, or the religious right (reich?) do not represent "The Church" and that it is inappropriate to tar all of religion or a large portion of any faith with a broad brush.


I see, and which true Scotsman does?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Tue May 16, 2017 4:11 am

DocLightning wrote:

I see, and which true Scotsman does?


Scotsman? I need a hint.
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tommy1808
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Tue May 16, 2017 4:48 am

BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
No. His attempt to work as a (medical) Missionary was first turned down, since he was a Lutheran aka he didn´t believe the right stuf and started of his career on his own dime. So, he won his, in deed well deserved, nobel despite those societies, not because of them.


See the Wikipedia page on Schweitzer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Schweitzer

"In 1912, now armed with a medical degree, Schweitzer made a definite proposal to go as a medical doctor to work at his own expense in the Paris Missionary Society's mission at Lambaréné on the Ogooué river, in what is now Gabon, in Africa (then a French colony). He refused to attend a committee to inquire into his doctrine, but met each committee member personally and was at last accepted. Through concerts and other fund-raising, he was ready to equip a small hospital"

This accords with what I read many years ago in two biographies. If I remember correctly, one was written by him.


Highlight by me.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Tue May 16, 2017 6:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
No. His attempt to work as a (medical) Missionary was first turned down, since he was a Lutheran aka he didn´t believe the right stuf and started of his career on his own dime. So, he won his, in deed well deserved, nobel despite those societies, not because of them.


See the Wikipedia page on Schweitzer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Schweitzer

"In 1912, now armed with a medical degree, Schweitzer made a definite proposal to go as a medical doctor to work at his own expense in the Paris Missionary Society's mission at Lambaréné on the Ogooué river, in what is now Gabon, in Africa (then a French colony). He refused to attend a committee to inquire into his doctrine, but met each committee member personally and was at last accepted. Through concerts and other fund-raising, he was ready to equip a small hospital"

This accords with what I read many years ago in two biographies. If I remember correctly, one was written by him.


Highlight by me.

best regards
Thomas


Your highlighting the words does not change the meaning, which was there from the beginning. It was never Schweitzer's objective to set up his medical mission at the expense of the Paris Missionary Society. He was his own fund raiser.

He felt the need for aid and support (non-monetary) of the Paris Missionary Society (and worked hard to get it) because they were established in the area and had lines of communication with the native populations surrounding Lambaréné. To have gone there without their aegis, or in opposition to their desires, would have made his work much more difficult, at least in the beginning.

There are different types of missions and missionaries. Schweitzer was a medical missionary and he was awarded the Nobel for his humanitarian work. There is no need to place the word "medical" in parentheses.

Schweitzer had been, before undertaking medical studies, a free-thinking "principal of St. Thomas College in Strasbourg, Curate at St. Nicholai, and [on] the faculty in both theology and philosophy at University of Strasbourg". Like many free-thinkers, his beliefs changed the more he studied.

http://www.schweitzer.org/2012/en/work- ... raphy-long
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LMP737
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Tue May 16, 2017 6:28 pm

One of the things that bothers me about so called evangelicals is this belief they seem to have that they are just trying to live their lives according to the bible. Hate to break the news to them but they are not. If they did they would end up in jail or the nut house.

What they do is cherry pick. And the part they like to cherry pick the most makes them believe that it's their religious right to deny others the rights they already have.
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DocLightning
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Wed May 17, 2017 12:48 am

BobPatterson wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

I see, and which true Scotsman does?


Scotsman? I need a hint.


Look up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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treetreeseven
Posts: 204
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Wed May 17, 2017 2:06 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Be proud of your granddaughter, she is doing the work of the Lord.


I don't know whether you are being sincere or perhaps making a joke.

What she is doing is targeting for "conversion" some of the many Israelis who visit New Zealand to hike in the mountains and along the coasts.

I happen to think of that "work" as an abomination, and not "of the Lord".

Wait... targeting Israelis for conversion? Wow.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Liberty University 2017

Wed May 17, 2017 2:38 am

DocLightning wrote:
Look up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy


Aaaah, Thank you. I can sleep now :-)

I'm too dense to comprehend how that fallacy (informal according to Wikipedia) might apply to the situation I discussed.

I certainly have been shown to have committed logical fallacies over the years.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.

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