Olddog wrote:Well you should remember that 70 % of the car made in the UK are for export.....
vc10 wrote:Would I be correct in saying that most of Macron supporters were mostly city dwellers , whereas Penns supporters were from the country side, or even is the split north /south.
Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:
Then he will also be saying bye bye to the Renault, Citroen and Pug cars France sells in the UK.
We'll see how it works out. Britain could have import taxes on all European cars, but that will mean that for the British Euro cars become more expensive and that cars produced in the UK will be more expensive in the EU, which will mean that most car manufacturers will leave the UK. So who will be the big winner in this? Or better whom stand to loose the most in that kind of thinking?
Well the EU does. Look how many french, germany, italian and spanish cars are sold in the EU each year. Compared to how many British cars are sold in the EU, it will be a lot higher. The EU's largest export market is the UK. The UK are also net importers from the EU. So its the EU's suicide call.
Bostrom wrote:vc10 wrote:Would I be correct in saying that most of Macron supporters were mostly city dwellers , whereas Penns supporters were from the country side, or even is the split north /south.
It looks like Le Pen had the most support in the north east. She won Aisne and Pas de Calais and Macron won all the other 99 départements. http://graphics.france24.com/results-se ... tion-2017/
(Even though the french presidential election is about winning the most votes and not the most départements, it shows the regional distribution of the votes.)
LAH1 wrote:Aesma wrote:No it just means that hope can win over an old country used to elect old leaders.
People here thought that when they elected the "young" Blair. I do so hope yours goes better than ours did.
winterlight wrote:
Hillis wrote:Looks like the French are a helluva lot smarter than many voters in the United States. Congratulations, France, on not giving into hatred and fear.
Pihero wrote:The amount of delusion is tragically patheti;;; and pathetically tragic, depending on how one feels.
Talk about a brainwashed population unable to formulate their own arguments, repeating ad nauseam the slogans of a few manipulative leaders and of course totally unable to reason or to provide proof of their logic.
Too late to wake up.... and sweet dreams, luvvy !
NIKV69 wrote:Hillis wrote:Looks like the French are a helluva lot smarter than many voters in the United States. Congratulations, France, on not giving into hatred and fear.
Yes because wanting a good job with fair taxation and secure borders is rooted in hatred and fear.
NIKV69 wrote:Yes because wanting a good job with fair taxation and secure borders is rooted in hatred and fear.
NIKV69 wrote:Hillis wrote:Looks like the French are a helluva lot smarter than many voters in the United States. Congratulations, France, on not giving into hatred and fear.
Yes because wanting a good job with fair taxation and secure borders is rooted in hatred and fear.
NIKV69 wrote:Hillis wrote:Looks like the French are a helluva lot smarter than many voters in the United States. Congratulations, France, on not giving into hatred and fear.
Yes because wanting a good job with fair taxation and secure borders is rooted in hatred and fear.
Aesma wrote:What was so wrong with Blair,
Aesma wrote:Protectionism doesn't provide jobs. Her policies would have killed 100 jobs for each 1 it would have artificially created.
Aesma wrote:Aside from that most of her discourse is against foreigners, migrants and Islam, everything not French is the problem, so yes, hatred and fear is her platform.
Francoflier wrote:The fact is, European, and most western countries which find themselves flirting with populism have had it better for longer than any other societies on Earth ever before. I am not saying everything is perfect, nor that it can't be better, far from it.
But we now live longer, are wealthier, do not endure war, plagues or famine, have structures that help shelter us to an extent from the vagaries of life, etc. And all of this comes from the formation of stable and progressive democratic governments, often after brutal wars.
Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
We'll see how it works out. Britain could have import taxes on all European cars, but that will mean that for the British Euro cars become more expensive and that cars produced in the UK will be more expensive in the EU, which will mean that most car manufacturers will leave the UK. So who will be the big winner in this? Or better whom stand to loose the most in that kind of thinking?
Well the EU does. Look how many french, germany, italian and spanish cars are sold in the EU each year. Compared to how many British cars are sold in the EU, it will be a lot higher. The EU's largest export market is the UK. The UK are also net importers from the EU. So its the EU's suicide call.
Please have a reality check. In your world the UK can ask for what it wants because they are (60m) are much more powerful than the EU (450m). Please explain how that works?
Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:
Well the EU does. Look how many french, germany, italian and spanish cars are sold in the EU each year. Compared to how many British cars are sold in the EU, it will be a lot higher. The EU's largest export market is the UK. The UK are also net importers from the EU. So its the EU's suicide call.
Please have a reality check. In your world the UK can ask for what it wants because they are (60m) are much more powerful than the EU (450m). Please explain how that works?
Perhaps have a reality check on the whole idea of the EU.
I never said that, It can't ask for what It wants but you pro EU crowd promote it that Britain has zero bargaining power.
Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
Please have a reality check. In your world the UK can ask for what it wants because they are (60m) are much more powerful than the EU (450m). Please explain how that works?
Perhaps have a reality check on the whole idea of the EU.
I never said that, It can't ask for what It wants but you pro EU crowd promote it that Britain has zero bargaining power.
Close to it, I would say. I think, like I said before, Britain has to decide what it wants, access to the EU internal market, but accept everything that goes with it (Norwegian model) or don't accept anything and stay out of the internal market. Why would the EU accept any other deal which is going to exceptional favor Britain? More so, than any other country outside the EU?
Pihero wrote:You've learned your lesson well but you'll find , at least in France quite a few people to oppose you.
Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:
Perhaps have a reality check on the whole idea of the EU.
I never said that, It can't ask for what It wants but you pro EU crowd promote it that Britain has zero bargaining power.
Close to it, I would say. I think, like I said before, Britain has to decide what it wants, access to the EU internal market, but accept everything that goes with it (Norwegian model) or don't accept anything and stay out of the internal market. Why would the EU accept any other deal which is going to exceptional favor Britain? More so, than any other country outside the EU?
I would say Britain have more bargaining power than you think. Don't get me wrong the EU has more. There is way more EU citizens living in the UK than British citizens in the EU. The ammount of British tourists that visit Spain, Portugal and Greece is huge. I know we are talking about trade but these issues will be bargaining chips too. Putting any form of visa in or travel requirements will slice the throat of the economies of places like Tenerife, Zante and Madeira.
If Geert Wilders had suceeded and nexit had happened, would you still have such a hostile attitude to negotiations?
pvjin wrote:Pihero wrote:You've learned your lesson well but you'll find , at least in France quite a few people to oppose you.
Yep, the greedy baby boomer generation wants to sustain its privilege as long as possible, but ultimately the change will come when the youth of the today enters middle-age with no money or future in current neoliberal system, and the boomers die of old age.
Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
Close to it, I would say. I think, like I said before, Britain has to decide what it wants, access to the EU internal market, but accept everything that goes with it (Norwegian model) or don't accept anything and stay out of the internal market. Why would the EU accept any other deal which is going to exceptional favor Britain? More so, than any other country outside the EU?
I would say Britain have more bargaining power than you think. Don't get me wrong the EU has more. There is way more EU citizens living in the UK than British citizens in the EU. The ammount of British tourists that visit Spain, Portugal and Greece is huge. I know we are talking about trade but these issues will be bargaining chips too. Putting any form of visa in or travel requirements will slice the throat of the economies of places like Tenerife, Zante and Madeira.
If Geert Wilders had suceeded and nexit had happened, would you still have such a hostile attitude to negotiations?
Geert Wilders only has 20 seats of the 76 required, in Dutch parliament, no other party, except some really small parties are in favor of a Nexit. But to answer your question, I would be quite disappointed if there was a Nexit, and after a year of five, I might think about the consequences![]()
But I think you have me all wrong, I would like Britain to have the kind of deal Norway has, nice and cozy. Lots of trade, the barriers to the minimum. Furthermore, I would like the EU realize that the free flow of people only works to a certain degree and that this only works for the upper levels of the job marked., not for the bottom of it. So the Brexit is a good time to look at this and reintroduce a working visa for some groups and free market for certain other levels. Britain could join that scheme as well because one of the reasons - as I understand it - the influx of eastern Europeans.
As far as the bargaining power goes, British tourist could still go to the holiday destinations, why not? Visa requirement are something of the country which is receiving the tourist, or the EU, that isn't in the power of the UK. UK could introduce visa requirements for EU citizens, but that will hurt the UK too and might not trikker the same reaction in the EU. So I would say not that strong. As for EU citizens living in the UK vs. UK citizens living in the EU,
- UK in EU: 1,2million
- EU in UK: 3,3million
So yes, there seems to be a surplus of EU citizens in the UK, so on the face of it, it seems that Britain has a bargaining chip here. But does it really? Is it in British best interest to expel the 3,3m and get the 1,2m back? As May already offered to give the 3,3m a permanent residences ship after the Brexit, if the EU does the same for UK citizens, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
Like I said, I honestly hope there will be a fair deal and hopefully as close to the EU as possible, but since Prime Minister May has advocated a hard Brexit, which will be the ultimate loose - loose, you can't expect me to be to thrilled by this. Like I said before and will be repeating, the choice is yours, Britain, lots of options to chose from, but don't expect a special treatment (but no punishment either, if it were up to me). So in this, I concur with the prime ministers of Denmark, Ireland, and The Netherlands: http://www.politico.eu/article/northern ... therlands/
You see that Britain still have friends across the sea. But the attitude in Westminster has to change as well. Going after a hard Brexit will harden the stand within the EU as well, quite understandable, since there is nothing to negotiate anymore.
But at the moment, the choice is back to the British, it is up to you to choose in the upcoming election what you want. Conservatives or more EU orientated Labour or more to the extreme Liberal Democrats. Perhaps after the elections, things will calm down and the real negotiations can begin.
Hope you understand that it feels like you guys took of my arm, without asking me, and it hurts, I love the Birtish
pvjin wrote:So what should Europeans do? Accept the neoliberal policies which will ultimately result in far poorer and less happy European population in coming decades compared to what we have now?
Dutchy wrote:But I think you have me all wrong, I would like Britain to have the kind of deal Norway has, nice and cozy. Lots of trade, the barriers to the minimum. Furthermore, I would like the EU realize that the free flow of people only works to a certain degree and that this only works for the upper levels of the job marked., not for the bottom of it.
As far as the bargaining power goes, British tourist could still go to the holiday destinations, why not?
Visa requirement are something of the country which is receiving the tourist, or the EU, that isn't in the power of the UK. UK could introduce visa requirements for EU citizens, but that will hurt the UK too and might not trikker the same reaction in the EU. So I would say not that strong. As for EU citizens living in the UK vs. UK citizens living in the EU,
- UK in EU: 1,2million
- EU in UK: 3,3million
So yes, there seems to be a surplus of EU citizens in the UK, so on the face of it, it seems that Britain has a bargaining chip here. But does it really? Is it in British best interest to expel the 3,3m and get the 1,2m back? As May already offered to give the 3,3m a permanent residences ship after the Brexit, if the EU does the same for UK citizens, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
But at the moment, the choice is back to the British, it is up to you to choose in the upcoming election what you want. Conservatives or more EU orientated Labour or more to the extreme Liberal Democrats. Perhaps after the elections, things will calm down and the real negotiations can begin.
tommy1808 wrote:Dutchy wrote:But I think you have me all wrong, I would like Britain to have the kind of deal Norway has, nice and cozy. Lots of trade, the barriers to the minimum. Furthermore, I would like the EU realize that the free flow of people only works to a certain degree and that this only works for the upper levels of the job marked., not for the bottom of it.
It works on all levels and is beneficial to almost everyone. Freedom of movement is the reason why we can get products and services cheap, while nations like Irland or Portugal are not low wage hellholes anymore.
Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:
I would say Britain have more bargaining power than you think. Don't get me wrong the EU has more. There is way more EU citizens living in the UK than British citizens in the EU. The ammount of British tourists that visit Spain, Portugal and Greece is huge. I know we are talking about trade but these issues will be bargaining chips too. Putting any form of visa in or travel requirements will slice the throat of the economies of places like Tenerife, Zante and Madeira.
If Geert Wilders had suceeded and nexit had happened, would you still have such a hostile attitude to negotiations?
Geert Wilders only has 20 seats of the 76 required, in Dutch parliament, no other party, except some really small parties are in favor of a Nexit. But to answer your question, I would be quite disappointed if there was a Nexit, and after a year of five, I might think about the consequences![]()
But I think you have me all wrong, I would like Britain to have the kind of deal Norway has, nice and cozy. Lots of trade, the barriers to the minimum. Furthermore, I would like the EU realize that the free flow of people only works to a certain degree and that this only works for the upper levels of the job marked., not for the bottom of it. So the Brexit is a good time to look at this and reintroduce a working visa for some groups and free market for certain other levels. Britain could join that scheme as well because one of the reasons - as I understand it - the influx of eastern Europeans.
As far as the bargaining power goes, British tourist could still go to the holiday destinations, why not? Visa requirement are something of the country which is receiving the tourist, or the EU, that isn't in the power of the UK. UK could introduce visa requirements for EU citizens, but that will hurt the UK too and might not trikker the same reaction in the EU. So I would say not that strong. As for EU citizens living in the UK vs. UK citizens living in the EU,
- UK in EU: 1,2million
- EU in UK: 3,3million
So yes, there seems to be a surplus of EU citizens in the UK, so on the face of it, it seems that Britain has a bargaining chip here. But does it really? Is it in British best interest to expel the 3,3m and get the 1,2m back? As May already offered to give the 3,3m a permanent residences ship after the Brexit, if the EU does the same for UK citizens, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
Like I said, I honestly hope there will be a fair deal and hopefully as close to the EU as possible, but since Prime Minister May has advocated a hard Brexit, which will be the ultimate loose - loose, you can't expect me to be to thrilled by this. Like I said before and will be repeating, the choice is yours, Britain, lots of options to chose from, but don't expect a special treatment (but no punishment either, if it were up to me). So in this, I concur with the prime ministers of Denmark, Ireland, and The Netherlands: http://www.politico.eu/article/northern ... therlands/
You see that Britain still have friends across the sea. But the attitude in Westminster has to change as well. Going after a hard Brexit will harden the stand within the EU as well, quite understandable, since there is nothing to negotiate anymore.
But at the moment, the choice is back to the British, it is up to you to choose in the upcoming election what you want. Conservatives or more EU orientated Labour or more to the extreme Liberal Democrats. Perhaps after the elections, things will calm down and the real negotiations can begin.
Hope you understand that it feels like you guys took of my arm, without asking me, and it hurts, I love the Birtish
Well at least you are being decent about it. Its only since brexit I have realised how involved the rest of the world can be in our politics. I recently lived in New Zealand and they knew all about it. Seems many non UKers on this forum know the exact details too.
Dutchy wrote:Easily done for work that is place-restricted, just make it compulsory to follow the same wages as in the host country.
We are an aviation website, so you see what is being done by Ryanair or Norwegian, so not just the lower wage job suffers.
tommy1808 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Easily done for work that is place-restricted, just make it compulsory to follow the same wages as in the host country.
Exactly. No need to restrict movement of people in any way, just make sure wage dumping isn´t possible, minimum wage also helps.We are an aviation website, so you see what is being done by Ryanair or Norwegian, so not just the lower wage job suffers.
They made Lufthansa a much better airline, with significantly more friendly staff and even drink and snack are back on short haul flying. The subsidy grabbing, that was a problem, not the business modell in itself.
You and i live and work in Europe, high taxing, relatively high wages, highly bureaucratic, high social security costs.... i don´t know what business you are in, but i am in IT, i have to compete with Chinese, Vietnamese, Taiwanese and so on countrymen every day i go to work. We have to compete a lot harder every day than just Irish vs. NL/German wages/labor law/regulations. Competition is good.
best regards
Thomas
Aesma wrote:Emmanuel Macron has talked about changing the Bolkestein Directive so that all parts of the salary are the same for all workers.
Also, clamping down on abuse must be made easier. The ECJ just ruled that French work inspectors couldn't cancel the working authorization of foreign workers because the authorization was not a French document so they had no authority. That's ridiculous, if someone is working in France then French work inspectors must have authority. Make them EU work inspectors if need be.
Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:Arion640 wrote:
Perhaps have a reality check on the whole idea of the EU.
I never said that, It can't ask for what It wants but you pro EU crowd promote it that Britain has zero bargaining power.
Close to it, I would say. I think, like I said before, Britain has to decide what it wants, access to the EU internal market, but accept everything that goes with it (Norwegian model) or don't accept anything and stay out of the internal market. Why would the EU accept any other deal which is going to exceptional favor Britain? More so, than any other country outside the EU?
I would say Britain have more bargaining power than you think. Don't get me wrong the EU has more. There is way more EU citizens living in the UK than British citizens in the EU. The ammount of British tourists that visit Spain, Portugal and Greece is huge. I know we are talking about trade but these issues will be bargaining chips too. Putting any form of visa in or travel requirements will slice the throat of the economies of places like Tenerife, Zante and Madeira.
tommy1808 wrote:Aesma wrote:Emmanuel Macron has talked about changing the Bolkestein Directive so that all parts of the salary are the same for all workers.
Yes, that would solve most problems.Also, clamping down on abuse must be made easier. The ECJ just ruled that French work inspectors couldn't cancel the working authorization of foreign workers because the authorization was not a French document so they had no authority. That's ridiculous, if someone is working in France then French work inspectors must have authority. Make them EU work inspectors if need be.
I don´t see the problem, drive to the employer/principal, arrest them, give them a hefty fine and expropriate their business if they get caught again. You don´t accidentally employ anyone below legal standards, you do that on purpose. More important than fines: put them in Jail. Not on parole, really in Jail, doesn´t even have to be long. No need to go after the workers. Quite the opposite, give them a quick lesson in what they are entitled to get.
best regards
Thomas
Aesma wrote:Having top notch education and training to keep an edge over the competition. Airbus doesn't sell planes thanks to protectionism, it sells them because they're competitive.
Many Le Pen voters don't understand or accept this. Some of them are middle aged and I can understand their position, but young people have no excuse, you can get a good education for free in France, and there are plenty of ways to get it, even after having dropped out.
pvjin wrote:A large portion of master's degrees out there are already useless, not everybody can be a top scientist, doctor or whatever. What should the rest do in tomorrow's highly automated society? Let's not forget that the level of education in countries like China is also getting quite high, competing with them is getting tougher.
Many estimations show that in the future there will be some demand for very highly educated specialists, but quite a big amount of traditional middle class jobs will be gone without anything that replaces them. I don't like the idea of a society divided between small rich elite and large poor majority, because then Europe will soon be no different from developing world.
tommy1808 wrote:And how will a Chinese Carpenter, Hairdressers, Car Mechanic, ... ,..... compete with a EU Carpenter, Haitdressers, Car Mechanic, ... ,..... fly over to get a hair cut? Ship your car over for Maintanance? Build house in China, disassemble and ship here? Who sets it up?
Lots of Jobs are inherently safe from competition, because the work has to be done locally.
tommy1808 wrote:and how exactly is your xenophobia going to help that? Aside of turning back globalization drastically increasing the pressure to use more automation. You are actively working to bring your own dystopia to come about faster....
pvjin wrote:tommy1808 wrote:And how will a Chinese Carpenter, Hairdressers, Car Mechanic, ... ,..... compete with a EU Carpenter, Haitdressers, Car Mechanic, ... ,..... fly over to get a hair cut? Ship your car over for Maintanance? Build house in China, disassemble and ship here? Who sets it up?
Lots of Jobs are inherently safe from competition, because the work has to be done locally.
Those jobs will be automated.
tommy1808 wrote:and how exactly is your xenophobia going to help that? Aside of turning back globalization drastically increasing the pressure to use more automation. You are actively working to bring your own dystopia to come about faster....
My "xenophobia" and support for protectionism is simply a way to say no to neoliberal globalists who don't give a damn about anything but getting themselves as much money as possible. It doesn't have to be that way, if protectionist policies started to rise in many enough countries the whole abusive system would soon collapse and something better could rise.
pvjin wrote:tommy1808 wrote:And how will a Chinese Carpenter, Hairdressers, Car Mechanic, ... ,..... compete with a EU Carpenter, Haitdressers, Car Mechanic, ... ,..... fly over to get a hair cut? Ship your car over for Maintanance? Build house in China, disassemble and ship here? Who sets it up?
Lots of Jobs are inherently safe from competition, because the work has to be done locally.
Those jobs will be automated.tommy1808 wrote:and how exactly is your xenophobia going to help that? Aside of turning back globalization drastically increasing the pressure to use more automation. You are actively working to bring your own dystopia to come about faster....
For us Europeans it hardly matters whether our jobs are automated or outsourced to China. Those jobs that can't be outsourced to China will be automated anyway the moment robots do it as well as humans and with lower costs.
My "xenophobia" and support for protectionism is simply a way to say no to neoliberal globalists who don't give a damn about anything but getting themselves as much money as possible. It doesn't have to be that way, if protectionist policies started to rise in many enough countries the whole abusive system would soon collapse and something better could rise.
Dutchy wrote:Automation will happen, sooner rather than later. Adidas brought back some factories from China to Germany, but the German once were almost all automated.
JJJ wrote:Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
It's not just about the numbers, it's about the kind of residents you get.
A disproportionate number of British expats in the continent are elderly retirees which on one hand boosts the local economy but on the other hand strain health and other social services. EU nationals in the UK are largely of working age, and actually generating tax receipts for the British economy.
For the sake of argument let's do a straight swap. I'm sure the continental economy is better prepared to handle young, working people than the already strained NHS and other social services is ready to deal with an influx of elderly people with health and other social issues.
For once, they will have to source these 3 million workers from elsewhere: India? North Africa? the Caribbean? do you think the average Brexit voter would swap Poles for Pakistanis or Jamaicans?
JJJ wrote:Arion640 wrote:Dutchy wrote:
It's not just about the numbers, it's about the kind of residents you get.
A disproportionate number of British expats in the continent are elderly retirees which on one hand boosts the local economy but on the other hand strain health and other social services. EU nationals in the UK are largely of working age, and actually generating tax receipts for the British economy.
For the sake of argument let's do a straight swap. I'm sure the continental economy is better prepared to handle young, working people than the already strained NHS and other social services is ready to deal with an influx of elderly people with health and other social issues.
For once, they will have to source these 3 million workers from elsewhere: India? North Africa? the Caribbean? do you think the average Brexit voter would swap Poles for Pakistanis or Jamaicans?
Olddog wrote:You may want to consider that you are acting like if these 0,5 % of Europeans living in the UK are an Everest to climb....
LAH1 wrote:JJJ wrote:Arion640 wrote:
Although you may want to stop and wonder why those 3 million came to the UK in the first place and whether the jobs they can return to in the EU are 1 as well paid, 2 there in the first place. If they are then why did they choose to move? As for the UK expat retirees, they probably provide more to the internal market where they are with their spending power than they ever take out in health fees.