LAH1 wrote:I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective.
You mean we're not reading anti-EU rants every day in popular tabloids ?
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LAH1 wrote:I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective.
seahawk wrote:The UK has seen worse hardship than the Brexit and survived. Nobody needs to go to the beaches in Spain, the Uk is beautiful enough and people can take their holidays at home, which would probably hurt the EU most. The people of a country accept a lot, if they see it as in their interest and forced upon them by an exterior threat. This is imho the mindset in the UK at the moment. I would not be surprised if first movements will ask for a boycott of Spanish holiday resorts in the next few months.
Olddog wrote:Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?
seahawk wrote:Olddog wrote:Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?
Maybe because the people in the UK feel that it is in their interest,.
Aesma wrote:LAH1 wrote:I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective.
You mean we're not reading anti-EU rants every day in popular tabloids ?
Aesma wrote:As long as your salary follows the inflation, you mean. Which in very economic liberal UK, might not happen for many people.
LTenEleven wrote:seahawk wrote:The UK has seen worse hardship than the Brexit and survived. Nobody needs to go to the beaches in Spain, the Uk is beautiful enough and people can take their holidays at home, which would probably hurt the EU most. The people of a country accept a lot, if they see it as in their interest and forced upon them by an exterior threat. This is imho the mindset in the UK at the moment. I would not be surprised if first movements will ask for a boycott of Spanish holiday resorts in the next few months.
I'm not convinced your average person will switch their annual holiday on one of the costas for a week in rainy Cornwall.
Besides, the U.K. does not have anywhere near the required hotel or other accommodation capacity to meet any kind of movement in that direction. Hotel occupancy rates are already very high with tough planning laws making any new builds on desirable greenfield sites very rare.
Olddog wrote:Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?
seahawk wrote:Olddog wrote:Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?
Maybe because the people in the UK feel that it is in their interest, while the people in the EU do not. Brexit can not be explained by facts, it was a decision based on emotions and emotions are strong motivators.
par13del wrote:Olddog wrote:Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?
My take would be that the EU is not choosing to kick the UK out, so any endurance will have to be borne by the ones leaving.....I think as mentioned by a few posters in this thread, the EU has endured the UK's membership for a few decades and are glad to see them gone...
LTenEleven wrote:I think few on the EU are really happy to see the UK go, but we have to live with the decision and will make what we can of what feels like a bad situation.
seahawk wrote:The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their borders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.
BCal Dc10 wrote:I don't want this to vanish from the front page - its like the FLAirport snowglobe thread from before most of you were members - google it - its worth it trust me. Or we'll be swamped by Eurovision Song Contest posts. That HAS to have its own thread. I'll weild my grandfather rights and EU veto you all if you mention it on this thread again. Aha.
So I had dinner with some businessy type people in New York tonight and we discussed the brexit thing.
A couple of POV's from American finance types came up.
First was about the EU - South Korea agreement. Many parallels were drawn about the UK and South Korea (SK). Now of course there are MANY differences between the nations. But one was the car industry. SK flogs a lot of cars overseas, and to the EU. They have a big services industry, and they have a slight "island nation" ideal about themselves and rather anti immigration.
Yet they managed to get a free trade agreement with the EU in principle agreed, in less than 2 years. The stumbling blocks - the UK - aha - no shock there, but the reason was brexit uncertainty - and Italy.
So lets leave the UK out of it - what is Italy complaining about? And maybe France? Protection of their automotive industries. And is there a process of "whipping" - like in the UK parliament, where you use your whips to basically force members to accept the "party" (EU) line. So who is whipping the smaller EU nations into toeing the EU line - otherwise nothing will ever be agreed because a member state will always derail any agreement wanting a better deal for their home (Italy/France - car) industry.
So the South Korea - EU agreement potentially could have gone through in less than 2 years. And I think that trade between the nations has been good in recent years. Yet a brief google sees reports of SK firms "dumping" cars in the EU to undercut the EU manufacturers. So one wonders how perfect any of these deals really are?! One could say - lets all have a big bun fight under WTO and let the best man win. Just a thought - not mine. Just an idea. (So don't shoot me please - I'm a nice person!)
Link for pendants - (Wikipedia - meh) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
Sorry I can't get the whole link to post - this website tech sucks. That whole link I posted will need to be referenced.
Now tell me EU friends about agreements that led to this almost unanimous agreement - was there free movement agreements, agreement by SK to abide by all EU laws and vice versa?
This is important to understand how the EU conducts these free trade agreements and what conditions each side puts on these deals....
seahawk wrote:The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their broders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.
BCal Dc10 wrote:seahawk wrote:The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their broders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.
The punishment aspect of EU leader rhetoric is quite frustrating.
The EU members on here suggesting that there is no punishment - let me quote directy from the current lame duck French president - "There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price, otherwise we will be in negotiations that will not end well and, inevitably, will have economic and human consequences,” the French president said."
So I ask again - as I did before - to EU supporting members - what is the reason behind this threat?
If the EU was a perfect organisation, you would have no reason to make these threats. I'm a US citizen asking questions that I'm genuinely curious about. Why? Are you that shit scared of other EU members saying -"fuck this for a game of soldiers - we're off" that you have to scare them into staying? I thought the EU was the panacea to every ill that was going on earth..... ?! The way some of you talk on this forum, it sounds like it should be....
Dutchy wrote:BCal Dc10 wrote:I don't want this to vanish from the front page - its like the FLAirport snowglobe thread from before most of you were members - google it - its worth it trust me. Or we'll be swamped by Eurovision Song Contest posts. That HAS to have its own thread. I'll weild my grandfather rights and EU veto you all if you mention it on this thread again. Aha.
So I had dinner with some businessy type people in New York tonight and we discussed the brexit thing.
A couple of POV's from American finance types came up.
First was about the EU - South Korea agreement. Many parallels were drawn about the UK and South Korea (SK). Now of course there are MANY differences between the nations. But one was the car industry. SK flogs a lot of cars overseas, and to the EU. They have a big services industry, and they have a slight "island nation" ideal about themselves and rather anti immigration.
Yet they managed to get a free trade agreement with the EU in principle agreed, in less than 2 years. The stumbling blocks - the UK - aha - no shock there, but the reason was brexit uncertainty - and Italy.
So lets leave the UK out of it - what is Italy complaining about? And maybe France? Protection of their automotive industries. And is there a process of "whipping" - like in the UK parliament, where you use your whips to basically force members to accept the "party" (EU) line. So who is whipping the smaller EU nations into toeing the EU line - otherwise nothing will ever be agreed because a member state will always derail any agreement wanting a better deal for their home (Italy/France - car) industry.
So the South Korea - EU agreement potentially could have gone through in less than 2 years. And I think that trade between the nations has been good in recent years. Yet a brief google sees reports of SK firms "dumping" cars in the EU to undercut the EU manufacturers. So one wonders how perfect any of these deals really are?! One could say - lets all have a big bun fight under WTO and let the best man win. Just a thought - not mine. Just an idea. (So don't shoot me please - I'm a nice person!)
Link for pendants - (Wikipedia - meh) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
Sorry I can't get the whole link to post - this website tech sucks. That whole link I posted will need to be referenced.
Now tell me EU friends about agreements that led to this almost unanimous agreement - was there free movement agreements, agreement by SK to abide by all EU laws and vice versa?
This is important to understand how the EU conducts these free trade agreements and what conditions each side puts on these deals....
Trade deals are one of those things the EU can do things on its own - I think. But that is just trade deals, of it incorporates something else, then it needs to be agreed by unanimity, like the EU - Ukraine deal or TTIP. Don't know the specifics about the EU - SK agreement, but the EU must gain something as well and if SK is really dumbing cars on the EU marked, I think they have posibilities to act on it.
Dutchy wrote:BCal Dc10 wrote:seahawk wrote:The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their broders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.
The punishment aspect of EU leader rhetoric is quite frustrating.
The EU members on here suggesting that there is no punishment - let me quote directy from the current lame duck French president - "There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price, otherwise we will be in negotiations that will not end well and, inevitably, will have economic and human consequences,” the French president said."
So I ask again - as I did before - to EU supporting members - what is the reason behind this threat?
If the EU was a perfect organisation, you would have no reason to make these threats. I'm a US citizen asking questions that I'm genuinely curious about. Why? Are you that shit scared of other EU members saying -"fuck this for a game of soldiers - we're off" that you have to scare them into staying? I thought the EU was the panacea to every ill that was going on earth..... ?! The way some of you talk on this forum, it sounds like it should be....
Rhetoric. Is it perfect, no, but does it help its members yes. As I said I don't subscribe to it. The EU needs to reform and Marcon has the agenda for it. The UK doesn't get punished, but no favors either. There must be consequences to leaving the EU and no cherry picking. Current opinion polls show that in no other member more than 50% of its citizens want to leave.
Dutchy wrote:@BCal Dc10 will have to look into the details, have to work right now . Perhaps tonight I have some time for this or it will be on Saturday. Please be patient
BCal Dc10 wrote:Dutchy wrote:@BCal Dc10 will have to look into the details, have to work right now . Perhaps tonight I have some time for this or it will be on Saturday. Please be patient
You get award for most sensible post here ever. If everyone said - I'll look into what you said, and get back, we'd all be a better informed forum.. so thanks for that. And I'll anticipate your sharp rebuttal later. Aha. But rather a sharp one than a stupid one.
seahawk wrote:But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.
Olddog wrote:seahawk wrote:But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.
LOL, you win the weekly troll contest
Olddog wrote:seahawk wrote:But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.
LOL, you win the weekly troll contest :white:
seahawk wrote:I can answer the question. The trade deal with South Korea is not as far reaching as full access to the open market. In generally it reduces import taxes between both parties, but it does not open that market to the other country. Air France could not start flying within South Korea, nor could Asiana fly in Europe. The whole deal has rules on origin and value added within the EU /SK for products to fall under the deal. Full access to the open market means much more.
But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.
Olddog wrote:seahawk wrote:But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.
LOL, you win the weekly troll contest
BCal Dc10 wrote:This is the first time I'm calling you out Dutchy - This is quite major in EU trade negotiations. Blowing this off as some kind of - meh trade deals happen - on this forum its not going to wash. Now I've respected you for being direct and forthright on many issues, and we have had constructive discussion, so lets continue it, and how something like an SK - EU deal was brokered, in 20 odd months, and how if fell apart at the end. And as soon as I bring up a FTA between EU and SK, it suddenly gets flung aside.
So lets discuss it. And if you don't know, educate, then lets discuss.
So I have given you a free trade deal - between the EU and South Korea. As an example. So I ask you again, to debate the issues in the FTA between the EU and SK - because this could become an example of how a FTA is done between the EU and UK.
seahawk wrote:I think a EU that keeps its members by force is not going to succeed.
OA260 wrote:I do not see anything at all that would suggest trolling..
tommy1808 wrote:OA260 wrote:I do not see anything at all that would suggest trolling..
There is no need to suggest, Seahawk is on record in one of the Brexit threads that he is playing the devils advocate on purpose.
best regards
Thomas
OA260 wrote:Good that he is coming to the border to see first hand the issues faced. I think the EU are taking it more seriously in recent weeks as Ireland have said they may need EU aid to soften the blow in any so called hard Brexit.
OA260 wrote:I do not see anything at all that would suggest trolling. You are a newbie here so may not be aware that certain members have been contributing for many years as part of our community and are respected even if you do not agree with them on this subject ! Stick to the topic in hand rather then accuse members of trolling when they are not. They are just airing their personal views. Just because YOU do not happen to agree with them does not mean they are wrong. Respect your fellow forum members like the majority of us have been doing. You will find it makes the thread a lot more enjoyable for everyone.
Aesma wrote:The negotiations for the EU-South Korea FTA started in 2007 and it is only provisionally in place, so I'm not sure it's such a great example.
Also, it was mostly done under the radar.
Dutchy wrote:lol, what are you trying to accomplish with this? You pleat for a far better deal than any other, including EU members, so yeah quite modest
JJJ wrote:OA260 wrote:Good that he is coming to the border to see first hand the issues faced. I think the EU are taking it more seriously in recent weeks as Ireland have said they may need EU aid to soften the blow in any so called hard Brexit.
Yesterday he was in Spain, apparently he's touring every country and recruiting local negotiators and advisers for specific issues to each country.