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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 4:12 pm

Olddog wrote:
I hope you understand it was a joke from my part no ? Because doing it that way is the UK wet dream: stop the people and let the other parts go thru is exactly what the UK wants and what is totally against EU rules.


I did know you were joking, but after thinking about it, I thought it had some merit, I may still think so.
Posters after mentioned that ROI was not in the Schengen zone, so smarter Irish minds may have already seen issues before......

Time will tell........
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 5:14 pm

scbriml wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Well, they can of course have a proper border between NI and the rest of the UK and keep the Inter-Irish Border free as it is with just a minor special status agreement. See, problem solved.


If only the real World were as simple as you seem to believe it is. :wink2:


I was being sarcastic.

But oh my, what about all those people and politicians that pushed and voted for Brexit without considering that problem and having a simple solution waiting in the drawer.... how simple did they think the world is?

Best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 5:36 pm

Aesma wrote:
I guess it will be simpler for NI to become part of Ireland


Simpler? Good luck to any politician who suggests that 'solution'. :rotfl:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 5:26 am

So I have had fun being away for a day or two - and I was chatting to some interesting folks in New York (uber drivers - always have an opinion!) and I mention brexit - and this was a response from one uber driver when we got chatting about politics and I mentioned brexit, who said - well the UK is still part of the permanent members of the security council, they hold a nuclear weapon deterrent, and they have one of the best security services in the world. Isn't that something the EU will want to think about and remember during these talks about who gets what. His words.

I know it is a terrible thing to mention, but when push comes to some shove about you know - stuff - the UK will say - well you still want all our top class GCHQ security service assistance or not?
Now y'all can bicker until the cows come home about whether that is immoral or wrong, but when I mentioned this at dinner with some learned friends tonight, they said - well the EU should decide if forcing the UK into economic hardship is immoral or wrong? Punishing a country for leaving rather than encouraging an environment that both parties will economically gain from - that is the right thing to do. One at the table said - beat them til they bleed. I think he had too many martinis. Aha. But brings up an interesting point. Is forcing the U.K. Into an economic hardship something that is beneficial to the EU?

People in the USA I have talked to about this find this Franco/German punishment ideology completely crazy. They see the desire to see a fellow close country and ally to fail is just bizarre.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 6:02 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
I know it is a terrible thing to mention, but when push comes to some shove about you know - stuff - the UK will say - well you still want all our top class GCHQ security service assistance or not?


It's not, it was already mentioned by some in th UK, but May already announced they won't be using this.Fortunately for the UK, the agreement which ensures that refugees will be held in France is a UK-France billateral and thus not subject to the Brexit negociations.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 6:38 am

LJ wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
I know it is a terrible thing to mention, but when push comes to some shove about you know - stuff - the UK will say - well you still want all our top class GCHQ security service assistance or not?


It's not, it was already mentioned by some in th UK, but May already announced they won't be using this.Fortunately for the UK, the agreement which ensures that refugees will be held in France is a UK-France billateral and thus not subject to the Brexit negociations.


I love your optimism honey - but when it comes to an FTA or not, that namby pamby shit ain't gonn fly.
I have a feeling the uk will wheel out the big guns...... I can't see any other way.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 6:51 am

LJ wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
I know it is a terrible thing to mention, but when push comes to some shove about you know - stuff - the UK will say - well you still want all our top class GCHQ security service assistance or not?


It's not, it was already mentioned by some in th UK, but May already announced they won't be using this.Fortunately for the UK, the agreement which ensures that refugees will be held in France is a UK-France billateral and thus not subject to the Brexit negociations.


Aha my response was rather abrupt mr LJ - so I do apologise - but let me ask a question as you mention it - what do you see happening to that border issue that is currently in place like in Calais? Doesn't the UK have a border in France? Does M Macron support this?

Sorry I didn't mean to offend earlier. I enjoy the banter.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 8:02 am

Macron already said that Le Touquet agreement will be renegotiated or cancelled.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 1:35 pm

I know that the main point of the leavers and their supporters on this site - and everywhere else, for that matters is that we, the EU are out to punish the UK for leaving.
Nothing could be further ( fArther ?) from the truth :!
One could define punishment as a set of actions outside the frame of commonly accepted behaviour, here in this case the rules of two treaties
1/- TEU, treaty for the EU
and
2/- TFEU, treaty for the functioning of the EU.

The Commission, as the active arm of the EU will be in charge of the negotiations with the UK and has laid grounds on their -LEGAL- considerations on the talks.
I think that it would be more useful to talk about something everybody has head and read instead of always referring to propaganda, so, I submitr to your attention the draft negotiation directives they proposed to the EU Council, which then approved it end will render its final instructions on May 22nd :


"European Commission - Fact Sheet
European Commission's draft negotiating directives for Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom - Q&A

Brussels, 3 May 2017

What have you adopted today?


The European Commission has today adopted a recommendation to the Council to open the Article 50 negotiations with the UK, in accordance with Article 218 (3) of the Treaty on European Union. The recommendation includes draft negotiating directives. This text complements the political guidelines adopted by the 27 Heads of State or Government on 29 April 2017 and provides the necessary details to conduct the first phase of the negotiations.

What are the next steps?

The General Affairs Council will meet on 22 May 2017 to adopt the draft negotiating directives (by strong qualified majority) and to authorise the opening of negotiations. Once adopted by the Council, the European Union will be ready to begin formal negotiations with the United Kingdom.

When will negotiations start?


The European Union is ready to begin negotiating once the Council authorises the opening of the negotiations. The first formal meeting between the EU and the UK negotiators is likely to be in June given the date of the General Election in the UK.

What about the practical side of the negotiations? What language will they be in? How often will both sides meet?

Practical issues, such as language regime and negotiation structure, will be agreed jointly between the EU and UK negotiators.

Will you be transparent in the negotiations?

Yes, the Commission's aim will be to ensure full transparency so as to allow for informed public debate. This is why the Commission has made today's recommendation public.

When does the United Kingdom cease to be a member of the European Union?

The UK will cease to be a member of the European Union at midnight on 29 March 2019, unless the European Council decides unanimously to extend the two-year negotiating period. The United Kingdom will become a third country from the date of withdrawal.

What will be your core principles in the negotiations?

The withdrawal agreement should be based on a balance of rights and obligations, while ensuring a level-playing field. Cherry-picking of the Single Market will not be permitted and the Union's four freedoms will remain indivisible. The negotiations will be based on the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. The European Union will remain united throughout the negotiation period and separate negotiations between individual Member States and the United Kingdom on matters pertaining to the UK's withdrawal will not be permitted. The withdrawal agreement should respect the autonomy of the decision-making of the Union, as well as the role of the Court of Justice of the European Union.

What is in the recommendation?

The Commission's recommendation reflects the two-phased approach established by the European Council guidelines and prioritises those matters which are necessary to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union. They are as follows:

I. CITIZENS' RIGHTS

How does the European Commission aim to protect the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU?

The decision by the United Kingdom to leave the European Union has created great uncertainty in the lives of many European citizens. The European Commission's first priority in the Article 50 negotiations is to give them certainty. In this respect, the EU will seek to guarantee the rights of both EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU, as well as their families (regardless of nationality). This includes rights that will only enter into effect in the future, such as old-age pensions. The European Commission aims to ensure that the withdrawal agreement provides the necessary effective, enforceable, non-discriminatory and comprehensive guarantees for those citizens' rights

Who would be protected by the Article 50 Agreement?

The European Commission aims to ensure that all those EU citizens who have made life-choices on the basis of EU law should be protected. This refers to workers, job-seekers, self-employed persons, students, pensioners, and family members. On that basis, the personal scope should be the same as that of Directive 2004/38 and Regulation 883/2004.

What rights would be protected?

The withdrawal agreement should safeguard those rights which citizens enjoy at the date of the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union. They should have the same material scope as the following pieces of legislation: The Treaty on the Functioning of the EU, Directive 2004/38, Regulation 883/2004, and Regulation 492/2011.
Right to reside in another Member State
Citizens of the EU and their family members have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the EU, subject to certain conditions. This right is conferred directly on every EU citizen by Article 21, 45 and 49 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and set out in Directive 2004/38. In particular:
The family members of EU citizens (regardless of nationality) should continue to have the right to accompany or join them in the UK, subject to certain conditions;
EU citizens should continue to automatically acquire the right to permanent residence in the UK after legally residing there for a continuous period of five years, even if they moved to the UK less that 5 years before the date of withdrawal.
Right to work in another Member State
The free movement of workers and self-employed persons is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 and Article 49 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, as specified in Regulation 492/2011 and the case law of the Court of Justice. The withdrawal agreement should continue to ensure that EU citizens are entitled to have access to the labour market, pursue an activity and enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages.
Right to social security and health care systems
The EU's social security coordination rules are laid out in Regulation 883/2004 and Regulation 987/2009. The withdrawal agreement should continue to provide the same level of protection for EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU. Rights include:
Sickness, maternity and equivalent paternity benefits;
Old-age pensions, pre-retirement and invalidity benefits;
Survivors' benefits and death grants;
Unemployment benefits;
Rights to aggregate, export of benefits, and the principle of single applicable law;
Family benefits;
Benefits in respect of accidents at work and occupational diseases.
Recognition of diplomas, certificates and other qualifications
The withdrawal agreement should ensure the protection of recognised diplomas, certificates and other qualifications obtained in any EU Member State or in a third country, in accordance with Union law, before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU.

For how long would these rights be protected?

All rights should be protected for the lifetime of the person concerned. This means, for instance, that an EU citizen residing in the UK who marries a third country national after the withdrawal of the UK maintains the current right to family reunification. It means that a UK citizen who returns to the UK after a career in various EU countries can aggregate easily all pension rights. Or that an EU citizen who has worked in the UK for ten years and loses his job after the withdrawal of the UK can use the unemployment benefit period to find another job in another EU Member State.

How would they be protected and enforced?

The withdrawal agreement should contain provisions providing for dispute settlement and enforcement mechanisms. Citizens should be able to directly invoke their rights based on the withdrawal agreement before national courts. The jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union should be maintained for the rights that citizens currently have under EU law.
Will people have to apply for residence documents?
Any document issued in relation to residence rights (e.g. registration certificates, residence cards) should have a declaratory nature only and be issued under a simple and swift procedure either free of charge or for a charge not exceeding that imposed on nationals for the issuing of similar documents.
How many EU citizens live in the United Kingdom and vice-versa?
The total number of EU-27 nationals living in the UK is approximately 3.2 million.
The total number of UK citizens living in the EU is approximately 1.2 million.

Where can I find out more information about my rights?

As an EU citizen, you have the right to contact the EU in your own language and get information and assistance on your EU rights. The Europe Direct Contact Centre can help you with any questions you might have. Representation offices of the European Commission are also at your service in your home countries.

II. FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT
What is the "single financial settlement"?

During the time of its membership, the UK has taken – and will take – financial commitments. They should be honoured in full. This will be an essential element of the negotiations on the orderly separation. The "single financial settlement" refers to the settlement of all financial commitments between the UK and the EU. Therefore, this refers to the Union budget, the European Investment Bank, the European Central Bank, the European Development Fund and other funds such as the Facility for Refugees in Turkey.

How will you calculate the sum?

The calculation of the UK's financial obligations will be based on objective and verifiable data.

III. ONGOING PROCEDURES

What will happen to products put on the market just before the United Kingdom leaves the European Union?

It is possible that a product may enter into circulation just before the UK leaves the EU and may still be in the distribution chain after the UK has left. Today's recommendation provides that in these cases it should be ensured that the product can remain on the market (both the UK and EU27) under the conditions set out in EU law until it reaches its end user.
What do you intend to do in the areas of judicial cooperation and ongoing administrative and law enforcement cooperation procedures?
EU law provides for a considerable number of detailed cooperation procedures between Member States administrations (for example, cooperation in the area of market surveillance of goods), in the area of judicial proceedings (for example, mutual assistance in taking evidence, or recognition of judgments handed down) and in the area of law enforcement (for example, exchange of information and intelligence between law enforcement authorities). Such cooperation procedures may have started prior to the UK leaving the EU, and may still be ongoing after the withdrawal. Today's recommendation provides that, where necessary and appropriate, rules should be drawn up to ensure that ongoing procedures at the time of the withdrawal of the UK from the EU are finalised under the conditions set out in EU law.

IV. NORTHERN IRELANDz
What have you included in the recommendation concerning Northern Ireland?

The European Union remains committed to the Good Friday Agreement and will work towards minimizing the consequences of the UK's decision to leave the EU on the peace process. This means looking at innovative and creative solutions in order to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. This will be a priority in the negotiations.

V. CYPRUS:

What have you included in the recommendation concerning Cyprus?

Once the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, an arrangement must be found to protect the rights and interests of the persons living in the two 'Sovereign Base Areas' ('SBAs') of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus, as well as ensuring the proper circulation of goods. The 'Sovereign Base Areas' are British Overseas Territories established in 1960. The Union should recognise the bilateral agreements and arrangements entered into by the Republic of Cyprus and the United Kingdom to the extent that they are compatible with Union law.

VI. UNION'S INTERESTS

What do you mean by ensuring the "necessary protection" of the Union's interests in the United Kingdom?

This refers to the privileges and immunities that the Union enjoys today on the basis of the Protocol (No 7) to the Treaties, which should continue in the future as well.

VII. GOVERNANCE & ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES

How should the Article 50 Agreement be enforced?

The jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union (and the supervisory role of the Commission) should be maintained. For the application and interpretation of provisions of the withdrawal agreement other than those relating to Union law, an alternative dispute settlement should only be envisaged if it offers equivalent guarantees of independence and impartiality to the Court of Justice of the European Union. The regulatory autonomy of the EU and the autonomy of its legal order should be fully preserved.

VIII. THE NEXT PHASE

When will the negotiations move on to discussions on the future relationship of the European Union and the United Kingdom?

Discussions on the framework for a future relationship with the United Kingdom will only begin once sufficient progress has been made in the first phase of the negotiations. It will be for the European Council to decide whether there has been sufficient progress.


MEMO/17/1183

Press contacts:
Margaritis SCHINAS (+ 32 2 296 05 24)
Daniel FERRIE (+32 2 298 65 00)
General public inquiries: Europe Direct by phone 00 800 67 89 10 11 or by email


Where is the punishment ?
Contrail designer
 
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SQ22
Crew
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 2:23 pm

I have cleaned this thread and I kindly ask you to stay on topic. I do know Brexit touches Northern Ireland, but I had the impression some post about it were going off topic. For sure we do not need to talk about nuclear missles here and please keep your emotions out when posting otherwise you can expect that moderators are issuing warnings or more.

In case you feel you are personally attacked by a user please do not reply but contact moderators either by a request for deletion of thre respective post or send a mail to moderators@airliners.net describing the situation.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 3:44 pm

Thanks SQ22 for your hard work. Emotive indeed.

Although my views remain way back in coach, being American n all (aha I'm jesting), I still would like to thank Pihero for posting that list of treaty rules etc - That's actually really interesting reading and I didn't know some of that info. I read the UK position too. Which was a little more woolly, but I think that we may see more come out after the UK general. I stand by what I said earlier that a lot of the rhetoric coming out of Mrs M's trap is just posturing and electioneering. I hope it will settle down after June 8, and a more concrete position will be made clear.

I'll make 2 and a half points from my personal POV -

1. People who say - the UK doesn't know what it is doing - clueless etc, I would argue that no one has done this before, and there is no blueprint or guideline to follow. So I would hazard a guess that if France or Germany were following this process, they too may be fairly clueless as to what to do. Uncharted waters and all that. I hope they (UK and EU) find their feet and negotiate a good deal for all parties, as soon as possible.

2. I assume the UK isn't formally announcing the Brexit negotiation team because technically some of them could be out of jobs come June 9, if they don't get re-elected. I guess they are choosing elected officials to conduct negotiation, rather than employees of the civil service.

1/2 point - And slightly to try lighten the mood, Nil points for the UK at Eurovision tonight? Or a full house of 12 points all round? Hahahaha. I love that show, but can't watch as I'm in the USA, unless someone can recommend a good vpn IP spoofer so I can hack into the BBC iPlayer?

Lets keep it friendly folks - everyone's views are equally valid! Or SQ22 will wield his big stick, and the fun will be stopped.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 4:02 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Although my views remain way back in coach, being American n all (aha I'm jesting), I still would like to thank Pihero for posting that list of treaty rules etc - That's actually really interesting reading and I didn't know some of that info. I read the UK position too. Which was a little more woolly, but I think that we may see more come out after the UK general. I stand by what I said earlier that a lot of the rhetoric coming out of Mrs M's trap is just posturing and electioneering. I hope it will settle down after June 8, and a more concrete position will be made clear.


I'll try to make an answer from the EU: The EU has no choice (for its future) and has to enforce strictly is internal rules and treaties (that UK made with the other members). And straight here you will see a huge problem as a lot of Brexiters had as main argument: we are so important that the EU will break its rules for us. It just should not happen for EU survival.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
1. People who say - the UK doesn't know what it is doing - clueless etc, I would argue that no one has done this before, and there is no blueprint or guideline to follow. So I would hazard a guess that if France or Germany were following this process, they too may be fairly clueless as to what to do. Uncharted waters and all that. I hope they (UK and EU) find their feet and negotiate a good deal for all parties, as soon as possible.


What the EU is said since the referendum was:
firstly we understand that the UK needs to come with a plan,
than 10 month later as there is still no serious plan: May is living in another galaxy.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
2. I assume the UK isn't formally announcing the Brexit negotiation team because technically some of them could be out of jobs come June 9, if they don't get re-elected. I guess they are choosing elected officials to conduct negotiation, rather than employees of the civil service.



That's a big difference with the way the EU is doing things: they have a technical team to build the exit plan, the internal european elections had not effect on that team. They should make 90 % of the job. And then AFTER that, the political teams should work what is left and can be negotiated.

About the European song contest: I just hope that France does not win by accident because it is totally kitsch and it costs a lot to organize.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat May 13, 2017 5:24 pm

Thanks for that considered response Olddog. Appreciate it.

Anyway it's Saturday lunchtime and a date with a bar with a Bloody Mary with my name on it. :mrgreen:

Play nicely boys and girls. Happy Saturday! (Enjoy the ESC)
 
smolt
Posts: 250
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 6:41 am

Just now I am listening to Cilla Black singing "Rule Britannia! Britannia rules the waves! Briton shall never never never be slaves."

I often ponder as if fainted as to why De Havilland's Trident Jet aircraft folds her nose gear from left to right,
as well as, as to why the great British people has chosen to leave EU.

Sometimes my dear British people make a decision which looks sometimes odd to me, but it is just that British people can see
things further that I can't. Time will show me what that is.

Four hundreds years ago, my country Japan totally disconnected trade relationship to other nations all over the world,
with only exception of tightened relation ship with Holland, China and Korea.This lasted for 200 years.
Surely this brought cultural development unique in Japan to an extent. But anyone hardly can tell if this prevent Japan
from being a slave of European powerful nations, nor this prevent material fulfillment through trades.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 9:14 am

I welcome everyone's view on this, it is an emotional discussion because - I reckon - touches on so many things. I have learned some great interesting things from some members and I welcome everyone's view on this sensitive subject.
The thing that opened my eyes and actually changed my mind was the piece from Marcon's staff about the Brexit and the EU in general. Someone posted the link here earlier, but I can't seem to find it anymore. I have read the whole piece last Thursday and I thought it was well balanced and I actually could see it work for everyone. The concept of an inner circle of highly integrated countries and another circle of countries which could have some influence, but not decision powers, countries like Brittain, Turkey, and Ukraine could join this circle. I think it cold actually involve 3 circles, most inner circle with the Euro countries, the inner circle with EU countries not adopting the Euro and the outer circle which have some of the perks, have influence and have to adopt EU guidelines, but the freedom of movement is highly restricted.

I still owe BCal Dc10 an explanation for the South Korea - EU free trade deal. As I said, it falls within the jurisdiction of the EU commission and EU parliament to conduct trade negotiations with other countries, as long as they are strictly bound by trade. As for dumping of cars - with subsidies from the SK government - that will never be allowed, not within one treaty, because that is not free trade. You have seen it with the EU - Ukraine treaty. The trade parts of this treaty came into effect on January 1st of this year, other parts didn't because The Netherlands didn't rectify it - because of the referendum held here and it rejected the treaty as such -. So the political, aid, military angle hasn't come into effect yet.
And to come back to the UK, yes, we can just have a trade deal, but then Brittish banks can't trade within the EU and since the British economy is heavily depended on this, this will be a major problem. You can see it now, lot's of banks are planning to move to either Paris, Frankfurt, Dublin or Amsterdam because of the Brexit. Those are real life results of the Brexit.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
So I have had fun being away for a day or two - and I was chatting to some interesting folks in New York (uber drivers - always have an opinion!) and I mention brexit - and this was a response from one uber driver when we got chatting about politics and I mentioned brexit, who said - well the UK is still part of the permanent members of the security council, they hold a nuclear weapon deterrent, and they have one of the best security services in the world. Isn't that something the EU will want to think about and remember during these talks about who gets what. His words.

I know it is a terrible thing to mention, but when push comes to some shove about you know - stuff - the UK will say - well you still want all our top class GCHQ security service assistance or not?
Now y'all can bicker until the cows come home about whether that is immoral or wrong, but when I mentioned this at dinner with some learned friends tonight, they said - well the EU should decide if forcing the UK into economic hardship is immoral or wrong? Punishing a country for leaving rather than encouraging an environment that both parties will economically gain from - that is the right thing to do. One at the table said - beat them til they bleed. I think he had too many martinis. Aha. But brings up an interesting point. Is forcing the U.K. Into an economic hardship something that is beneficial to the EU?

People in the USA I have talked to about this find this Franco/German punishment ideology completely crazy. They see the desire to see a fellow close country and ally to fail is just bizarre.


As always, some interesting questions here.
- the uber driver is quite wrong. One of those areas the EU hasn't really come together is foreign policies. I would love to see a seat reserved for the EU and that the EU becomes a permanent member, but then France should give up its seat for that. But I feel that is a long way off. There are many examples where the UK votes one way and France another, most notably with the Iraq war of 2003, France was against it and the UK all for it. As for nuclear weapon deterrent, France has them, but more importantly, Britain isn't leaving NATO, so that is not in issue either. I know some pleat for an EU defense force, but the EU - as of yet - doesn't have any, so that is not an issue either.
As of the security services, don't know much about that one, but I can't imagine that the British security services are that much more interconnected and that they share that much more information than putting all the services of the EU-27 together. So in this area you also have a mutual beneficiary relationship, so why would Brittain give that up?

- You have some interesting friends there, would love to sit in, in one of those dinners ;-). I still believe the whole punishment idea is a lot of EU rhetoric, they shouldnot do it, yet they do. The actual negotiations aren't going be like a punitive expedition (is this correct English?). As I said, I subscribe to the Marcon ideas about this, parallel discussions of the Brexit deal and a new set of trade deals with an outlook to a new design of the EU itself. Never waste a good crisis.

What I find more interesting, what will happen to the UK, will it be broken up? Will Scotland leave, will Northen Island be united with the Republic of Ireland?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 9:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
Turkey

What I find more interesting, what will happen to the UK, will it be broken up? Will Scotland leave, will Northen Island be united with the Republic of Ireland?


1: Turkey is less and less interested in being part of the EU either on a special deal or full membership. Since the EU went back on a deal to allow visa free travel the Turks trust the EU and what it stands for less day by day. Then of course you have various countries in the EU who would be horrified at Turkey joining now so why would you advocate them having any influence?

2: There will not be a United Ireland in my lifetime. The polls even after Brexit are going the opposite direction especially among those who you would historically have thought would be staunch yes voters.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 1:41 pm

One of the fundamental flaws of the circles of integration is the "discrimination effect" maybe there is a better word since folks have been trained to view it as a negative. The EU tenants does place everyone on a equal footing, how do you avoid the complications of the "Haves and the Have Not's", inside and outside of Europe there has always been the mantra" of the EU being controlled by France and Germany, I have English family and friends who all said that negotiations would / could not start with the EU until AFTER the French and German elections, and these were staunch Remain supporters.

I do not know the answers, however in my opinion the best way to approach the issues of the EU is not closer integration or multiple circles, but a "commission" for want of a better word or mechanism to look at the complaints coming from the masses - not their representatives - and putting hard covenants in place to address them. The best form of closer integration is when the people want it not their representatives, I do not think anyone will be pushing for a vote by the masses on closer integration, and without that, there will always be a major hole that cannot be closed and always exploited by those who disagree or want to cause trouble. Trust in the people is a hard thing to find among elected officials especially when pushing items they did not run on.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 2:49 pm

EU Defense is on its way. But UK use its veto until 2019.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 2:51 pm

http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-block ... ding-spat/

EU try to start before 2019 but UK stops any suggestion of it.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 3:16 pm

You can understand why the brexit negotiation have about zero chance to go after the 2 years period.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 7:02 pm

We in Europe do not care : in 22 months, the obstacles will be all but forgotten. They can do all they wish and if push comes to shove, the 27 could just invoke the sub-article that allows them to decide on an event that happens after the exit of the leaving country..... shrug...
and as usual, I think that an official document is way better than the possibly emotive opinion from a newspaper :

This "European Defence Action Plan: Towards a European Defence Fund" is a giant step toward what people like me want:
The MPCC is another .
Things are going a lot faster than I, an optimist, would have ever thought.
In a much closer future, NATO will be made of the US, Canada, the EU... and the others like Turkey... I'll looove that !

Excerpts :
"The European Commission proposes a European Defence Fund and other actions to support Member States' more efficient spending in joint defence capabilities, strengthen European citizens' security and foster a competitive and innovative industrial base...
In his 2016 State of the Union speech, President Jean-Claude Juncker highlighted the importance of a strong Europe that can defend and protect its citizens at home and abroad - an ambition which cannot be achieved without innovating and pooling resources in the European defence industry...
President Jean-Claude Juncker said: “To guarantee our collective security, we must invest in the common development of technologies and equipment of strategic importance – from land, air, sea and space capabilities to cyber security. It requires more cooperation between Member States and greater pooling of national resources. If Europe does not take care of its own security, nobody else will do it for us. A strong, competitive and innovative defence industrial base is what will give us strategic autonomy."

Under the European Defence Action Plan, the Commission proposes to:

1 - Set up a European Defence Fund to support investment in joint research and the joint development of defence equipment and technologies:

2 - Foster investments in SMEs, start-ups, mid-caps and other suppliers to the defence industry: The European Structural and Investment Funds and European Investment Bank (EIB) group already provide financial support for the development of a number of dual-use activities...

3 - Strengthen the Single Market for defence:

Background :
In his political guidelines in June 2014, President Juncker stated "I believe that we need to work on a stronger Europe when it comes to security and defence matters. Yes, Europe is chiefly a ‘soft power'. But even the strongest soft powers cannot make do in the long run without at least some integrated defence capacities."
In his State of the Union speech from 14 September 2016, President Juncker announced that "Europe can no longer afford to piggy-back on the military might of others or let France alone defend its honour in Mali. (…) "For European defence to be strong, the European defence industry needs to innovate. That is why we will propose before the end of the year a European Defence Fund, to turbo boost research and innovation."
Over the last decade EU Member States have decreased defence spending by nearly 12% in real terms, but this has not been compensated by more European cooperation. The lack of cooperation between Member States in the field of defence and security is estimated to cost annually between EUR 25 billion and EUR 100 billion (see Annex)....

...The actions proposed in this European Defence Action Plan will lead to a stronger European Union in defence, which ultimately means a stronger NATO.
The Action Plan is also linked to the April 2016 Joint Framework to counter hybrid threats and foster the resilience of the EU, its Member States and partner countries while increasing cooperation with NATO on countering these threats, which in turn builds on the European Agenda on Security adopted by the Commission in April 2015.


ANNEX
The business case for more efficient spending on defence:

Collectively, Europe is the world's second largest military spender, behind the US. However, defence budgets in Europe have been shrinking in recent years, while other global actors (China, Russia and Saudi Arabia) have been upgrading their defence sectors on an unprecedented scale. In 2015, the US invested more than twice as much as the total spending of EU Member States on defence. China has increased its defence budget by 150% over the past decade. By contrast, over the last decade EU Member States have decreased defence spending by nearly 12% in real terms.
This decrease in national spending in defence has not been compensated by more European cooperation. Europe suffers from inefficiency in spending due to duplications,
a lack of interoperability, technological gaps and insufficient economies of scale for industry and production. Around 80% of defence procurement is run on a purely national basis, leading to a costly duplication of military capabilities.
The lack of cooperation between Member States in the field of defence and security is estimated to cost annually between EUR 25 billion and EUR 100 billion.
Without a sustained investment in defence, the European industry risks lacking the technological ability to build the next generation of critical defence capabilities. Ultimately, this will affect the strategic autonomy of the Union and its ability to act as a security provider.
More Europe in defence will have a positive spill-over effect on the European economy. The European defence industry generates a total turnover of EUR 100 billion per year and 1.4 million highly skilled peopled directly or indirectly employed in Europe. Each euro invested in defence generates a return of 1,6 – in particular in skilled employment – research and technology and exports.
"

The whole document is European Defence Action Plan: Towards a European Defence Fund
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 7:21 pm

OA260 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Turkey

What I find more interesting, what will happen to the UK, will it be broken up? Will Scotland leave, will Northen Island be united with the Republic of Ireland?


1: Turkey is less and less interested in being part of the EU either on a special deal or full membership. Since the EU went back on a deal to allow visa free travel the Turks trust the EU and what it stands for less day by day. Then of course you have various countries in the EU who would be horrified at Turkey joining now so why would you advocate them having any influence?

2: There will not be a United Ireland in my lifetime. The polls even after Brexit are going the opposite direction especially among those who you would historically have thought would be staunch yes voters.


1. The current Turkey is indeed not interested in joining the EU, but a certain percentage is interested in it, but as you say, lots of EU countries will veto it, because of the free movement of people. So if Turkey could be offered a position within the framework of the EU, without actually joining, perhaps that will be a solution. So that's why I mentioned it. Read the piece I recommended and you will see the argument there, did you read it yet? And what did you think of that solution for the UK?

2. Perhaps. If you say about the polls is true, then so be it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 7:23 pm

olle wrote:
EU Defense is on its way. But UK use its veto until 2019.


Why? May has said she will not block anything regarding anything which will take effect after 2019.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 7:29 pm

BCalDc10 :
"I know it is a terrible thing to mention, but when push comes to some shove about you know - stuff - the UK will say - well you still want all our top class GCHQ security service assistance or not? "
I knew there was somewhere an article I read on that very subject, but on the other side of Alice's mirror ; it would have to do with a security intelligence set up by the Schengen countries...
I found it, a lot closer to me than I thought ; the SIS, or "Schengen Information System" covers some gynormous data and software.
And... Guess who used it the most last year ?
- Yeah ! You're right : the UK !, more than Germany, Italy or France.

Have a read of this article titled : Why No Deal on EU8 Security Would Spell Danger

As I said earlier, the security path seems to be a two-way lane .
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Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 7:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
EU Defense is on its way. But UK use its veto until 2019.


Why? May has said she will not block anything regarding anything which will take effect after 2019.


Ever heard of Pinocchio ?
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 7:46 pm

Pihero wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
EU Defense is on its way. But UK use its veto until 2019.


Why? May has said she will not block anything regarding anything which will take effect after 2019.


Ever heard of Pinocchio ?


Sure, but he was French, not British :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 7:49 pm

Erdogan wants to make the death penalty legal again so he can genocide his opposition freely, so there will be no deal of any kind with the EU in the foreseeable future. There is a better chance of a western "intervention" to free the country, to be honest.

As for asking the people what they want, it should be a given, however do the people actually want the same thing ? Especially between western Europe and the newer members, I see a big divide.

A salient moment between the two rounds of the presidential election here in France was the social conflict at a Whirlpool plant. The plant is being closed down to open a new one in Poland instead. It's the kind of things that make people vote for radical parties. Meanwhile in Poland they have elected an anti-European, the irony !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 10:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Pihero wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Why? May has said she will not block anything regarding anything which will take effect after 2019.


Ever heard of Pinocchio ?


Sure, but he was French, not British :D

Oh ! Dutchy !!!
You should be more au fait with European culture :
Carlo Collodi invented Geppetto who created Pinocchio : They were all Italian...
But in fact Pinocchio is the prototype of any compulsive liar, until he/she is reformed.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 14, 2017 10:07 pm

Pihero wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Pihero wrote:

Ever heard of Pinocchio ?


Sure, but he was French, not British :D

Oh ! Dutchy !!!
You should be more au fait with European culture :
Carlo Collodi invented Geppetto who created Pinocchio : They were all Italian...
But in fact Pinocchio is the prototype of any compulsive liar, until he/she is reformed.


Whoops, yes I stand corrected and going to hang my head in shame, I knew this and still, my fingers got to type the wrong county.

But I was trying to create some lighter touches and I failed miserably, I do apologize.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 4:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
I welcome everyone's view on this, it is an emotional discussion because - I reckon - touches on so many things. I have learned some great interesting things from some members and I welcome everyone's view on this sensitive subject.
The thing that opened my eyes and actually changed my mind was the piece from Marcon's staff about the Brexit and the EU in general. Someone posted the link here earlier, but I can't seem to find it anymore. I have read the whole piece last Thursday and I thought it was well balanced and I actually could see it work for everyone. The concept of an inner circle of highly integrated countries and another circle of countries which could have some influence, but not decision powers, countries like Brittain, Turkey, and Ukraine could join this circle. I think it cold actually involve 3 circles, most inner circle with the Euro countries, the inner circle with EU countries not adopting the Euro and the outer circle which have some of the perks, have influence and have to adopt EU guidelines, but the freedom of movement is highly restricted.

I still owe BCal Dc10 an explanation for the South Korea - EU free trade deal. As I said, it falls within the jurisdiction of the EU commission and EU parliament to conduct trade negotiations with other countries, as long as they are strictly bound by trade. As for dumping of cars - with subsidies from the SK government - that will never be allowed, not within one treaty, because that is not free trade. You have seen it with the EU - Ukraine treaty. The trade parts of this treaty came into effect on January 1st of this year, other parts didn't because The Netherlands didn't rectify it - because of the referendum held here and it rejected the treaty as such -. So the political, aid, military angle hasn't come into effect yet.
And to come back to the UK, yes, we can just have a trade deal, but then Brittish banks can't trade within the EU and since the British economy is heavily depended on this, this will be a major problem. You can see it now, lot's of banks are planning to move to either Paris, Frankfurt, Dublin or Amsterdam because of the Brexit. Those are real life results of the Brexit.

BCal Dc10 wrote:
So I have had fun being away for a day or two - and I was chatting to some interesting folks in New York (uber drivers - always have an opinion!) and I mention brexit - and this was a response from one uber driver when we got chatting about politics and I mentioned brexit, who said - well the UK is still part of the permanent members of the security council, they hold a nuclear weapon deterrent, and they have one of the best security services in the world. Isn't that something the EU will want to think about and remember during these talks about who gets what. His words.

I know it is a terrible thing to mention, but when push comes to some shove about you know - stuff - the UK will say - well you still want all our top class GCHQ security service assistance or not?
Now y'all can bicker until the cows come home about whether that is immoral or wrong, but when I mentioned this at dinner with some learned friends tonight, they said - well the EU should decide if forcing the UK into economic hardship is immoral or wrong? Punishing a country for leaving rather than encouraging an environment that both parties will economically gain from - that is the right thing to do. One at the table said - beat them til they bleed. I think he had too many martinis. Aha. But brings up an interesting point. Is forcing the U.K. Into an economic hardship something that is beneficial to the EU?

People in the USA I have talked to about this find this Franco/German punishment ideology completely crazy. They see the desire to see a fellow close country and ally to fail is just bizarre.


As always, some interesting questions here.
- the uber driver is quite wrong. One of those areas the EU hasn't really come together is foreign policies. I would love to see a seat reserved for the EU and that the EU becomes a permanent member, but then France should give up its seat for that. But I feel that is a long way off. There are many examples where the UK votes one way and France another, most notably with the Iraq war of 2003, France was against it and the UK all for it. As for nuclear weapon deterrent, France has them, but more importantly, Britain isn't leaving NATO, so that is not in issue either. I know some pleat for an EU defense force, but the EU - as of yet - doesn't have any, so that is not an issue either.

As of the security services, don't know much about that one, but I can't imagine that the British security services are that much more interconnected and that they share that much more information than putting all the services of the EU-27 together. So in this area you also have a mutual beneficiary relationship, so why would Brittain give that up?

- You have some interesting friends there, would love to sit in, in one of those dinners ;-). I still believe the whole punishment idea is a lot of EU rhetoric, they shouldnot do it, yet they do. The actual negotiations aren't going be like a punitive expedition (is this correct English?). As I said, I subscribe to the Marcon ideas about this, parallel discussions of the Brexit deal and a new set of trade deals with an outlook to a new design of the EU itself. Never waste a good crisis.

What I find more interesting, what will happen to the UK, will it be broken up? Will Scotland leave, will Northen Island be united with the Republic of Ireland?


Thanks Dutchy - I appreciate you taking time to come back on some of the points I raised. A lot of what you have mentioned has been covered already, but I think your point about the UK and its component parts brings up some very interesting angles on the whole argument.

Would you be kind to give us some more information on all the banks moving out of the UK. You said "lots of banks are planning to move to.... insert European city .... I have seen some talk of some departments of banks having to move. But talking to some big US banking executives in New York last week, (its just chatter so my argument is baseless - so I can't back it up sorry folks) - that really isn't the case - at least they don't see it like that. So if you could show us the statements from banks who are moving entire operations out of the UK, it would help back up your argument - which is valid - but it needs some back up. Thanks Dutchy.

First up I honestly believe the situation between England and Scotland is in some ways like the EU and UK. Huge trade between each other, so much commonality, freedom of movement, finance, citizens in each other's states, etc etc etc.

Let me tell you this - when I read the EU v UK arguments - they are nearly all parallel to the UK v Scotland - in reverse.
It's almost surreal sometimes. The same arguments some of you passionate continental European posters argue - why would you want to leave, life will be difficult afterwards, costs will rise, blah blah blah - are EXACTLY the same arguments the UK uses against the Scottish leaving the UK. It's like a mini UK Scotchit - or for want of a better term. The same rhetoric, the same bitching moaning you are idiots, no you are idiots - it would almost be amusing if it wasn't so tragic. The Brits want out of a Union. The Scots want to stay in a union. But they want out of a union. I'm getting confused.
Can I go back to that bar I had a Bloody Mary in yesterday in Philadelphia? Make it a double. My head hurts.

My last point is - and you know who you are - tone the rhetoric down a notch. Please. Or you will have this interesting and informative - emotive - but essential thread shut down. I urge you to be less nationalistic and negative, and discuss the issues with positivity, like the thread starter Dutchy did just now, and others have said as well. (And please don't come back with - its not our fault this is negative, its the nasty evil imperialist Brits fault - that isn't washing with us international observers - so knock it off)

There have been really good positive remarks from both sides of the arguments - and others - like me - who are American, and other countries outside the EU, who find the whole process fascinating, and recognize that this process affects us, as well as you all over there, and will ask questons about the process to understand it more, and not feel like we are second class for trying to get involved.
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 7:26 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
My last point is - and you know who you are - tone the rhetoric down a notch. Please. Or you will have this interesting and informative - emotive - but essential thread shut down. I urge you to be less nationalistic and negative, and discuss the issues with positivity, like the thread starter Dutchy did just now, and others have said as well. (And please don't come back with - its not our fault this is negative, its the nasty evil imperialist Brits fault - that isn't washing with us international observers - so knock it off)

There have been really good positive remarks from both sides of the arguments - and others - like me - who are American, and other countries outside the EU, who find the whole process fascinating, and recognize that this process affects us, as well as you all over there, and will ask questons about the process to understand it more, and not feel like we are second class for trying to get involved.


There have been some very valid comments made here, on both sides as you say, but you'll notice that most -but not all - UK posters have either stopped posting or post less often. Whilst it's good to discuss with those who put good balanced and informative points, getting called fascist or racist or other names simply because we uphold a principle which we think is right or even play devil's advocate to inspire discussion means I for one will only get to the key board in extremis as it were.
Thanks for your comments.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 8:47 am

LAH1 wrote:
getting called fascist or racist or other names


I may have missed it but could you show me theses posts?
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 9:33 am

Yeah ! I'm interested, too !
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LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 9:42 am

Just read through this thread. It's got plenty of examples where "racist" and "fascist" have been used to either describe people in the UK who voted leave or as a general observation of the climate of the country.
Funny it was you two who jumped on this.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 10:03 am

So you mean that because we are not agree with you you post a lie with not evidence to back it ?

I don't think and never said that every british is an Ukip member...

What we posted since you started to complain about unfair EU is that you voted to leave, just follow the rules and stop acting like innocent victim of the bad EU.

If you think I made a post implying what you are saying, report it to the mods!
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 10:35 am

Ditto, on everything !
( and I know I've been the most vocal anti Brit on this forum... so I know what I wrote : That Farage had appealed to the basest instinct of the UK crowd is completely true, that the UK is proof that a democratic act - the referendum - leads to a series of bloody un- democratic propaganda : calling traitors people who just disagree with you and want to re-establish the real power of democracy which is inside your institutions : the high judges,, Jo Cox ... Gina Miller...)
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 10:38 am

Olddog wrote:
I don't think and never said that every british is an Ukip member...



Hardly any in fact !

Ukip is 'finished as an electoral force' says biggest donor Arron Banks after local election wipeout

The UK Independence Party is “finished as an electoral force”, the party’s biggest donor said yesterday, saying it needed “a strategic bullet to the back of the head” after its catastrophic local election defeat.

Ukip gained a single seat and lost 114 seats in the local elections, prompting the former Ukip MP Douglas Carswell to say the party was “over”.

The party’s haul of a single councilor was the same as the single-issue Rubbish Party which was set up two months ago to clean up east Ayrshire in Scotland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... ron-banks/
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 10:52 am

The party has served its purpose. The people of Britain have voted for freedom, so the main goal of UKip was achieved.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 12:26 pm

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Thanks Dutchy - I appreciate you taking time to come back on some of the points I raised. A lot of what you have mentioned has been covered already, but I think your point about the UK and its component parts brings up some very interesting angles on the whole argument.

Would you be kind to give us some more information on all the banks moving out of the UK. You said "lots of banks are planning to move to.... insert European city .... I have seen some talk of some departments of banks having to move. But talking to some big US banking executives in New York last week, (its just chatter so my argument is baseless - so I can't back it up sorry folks) - that really isn't the case - at least they don't see it like that. So if you could show us the statements from banks who are moving entire operations out of the UK, it would help back up your argument - which is valid - but it needs some back up. Thanks Dutchy.


While I'm not Dutchy, I'll try to answer you. I have the impression that a lot of banks are making plans to relocate their staff in London to. Paris, Dublin and Frankfurt seems to be the most popular choices. Wether or not they will actually act on those plans will probably depend on the Brexit negogiations, but it would probably be stupid of them to not have a plan B in case their London office loses acces to the EU market. Recommended reading: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/arti ... xit-timing

BCal Dc10 wrote:
First up I honestly believe the situation between England and Scotland is in some ways like the EU and UK. Huge trade between each other, so much commonality, freedom of movement, finance, citizens in each other's states, etc etc etc.

Let me tell you this - when I read the EU v UK arguments - they are nearly all parallel to the UK v Scotland - in reverse.
It's almost surreal sometimes. The same arguments some of you passionate continental European posters argue - why would you want to leave, life will be difficult afterwards, costs will rise, blah blah blah - are EXACTLY the same arguments the UK uses against the Scottish leaving the UK. It's like a mini UK Scotchit - or for want of a better term. The same rhetoric, the same bitching moaning you are idiots, no you are idiots - it would almost be amusing if it wasn't so tragic. The Brits want out of a Union. The Scots want to stay in a union. But they want out of a union. I'm getting confused.


They are, you are not the only one to make that connection. Any argument May uses for leaving the EU can be used by Nicola Sturgeon for Scottish independence. http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwo ... -stalemate

BCal Dc10 wrote:
My last point is - and you know who you are - tone the rhetoric down a notch. Please. Or you will have this interesting and informative - emotive - but essential thread shut down. I urge you to be less nationalistic and negative, and discuss the issues with positivity, like the thread starter Dutchy did just now, and others have said as well. (And please don't come back with - its not our fault this is negative, its the nasty evil imperialist Brits fault - that isn't washing with us international observers - so knock it off)


That would be great!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 12:33 pm

OA260 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I don't think and never said that every british is an Ukip member...



Hardly any in fact !

Ukip is 'finished as an electoral force' says biggest donor Arron Banks after local election wipeout

The UK Independence Party is “finished as an electoral force”, the party’s biggest donor said yesterday, saying it needed “a strategic bullet to the back of the head” after its catastrophic local election defeat.

Ukip gained a single seat and lost 114 seats in the local elections, prompting the former Ukip MP Douglas Carswell to say the party was “over”.

The party’s haul of a single councilor was the same as the single-issue Rubbish Party which was set up two months ago to clean up east Ayrshire in Scotland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05 ... ron-banks/


UKIP has Borg-assimilated the Conservative party.

The Tories are a hollow corpse of a party run by their hard-Brexit wing.
 
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 12:46 pm

Bostrom wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
Thanks Dutchy - I appreciate you taking time to come back on some of the points I raised. A lot of what you have mentioned has been covered already, but I think your point about the UK and its component parts brings up some very interesting angles on the whole argument.

Would you be kind to give us some more information on all the banks moving out of the UK. You said "lots of banks are planning to move to.... insert European city .... I have seen some talk of some departments of banks having to move. But talking to some big US banking executives in New York last week, (its just chatter so my argument is baseless - so I can't back it up sorry folks) - that really isn't the case - at least they don't see it like that. So if you could show us the statements from banks who are moving entire operations out of the UK, it would help back up your argument - which is valid - but it needs some back up. Thanks Dutchy.


While I'm not Dutchy, I'll try to answer you. I have the impression that a lot of banks are making plans to relocate their staff in London to. Paris, Dublin and Frankfurt seems to be the most popular choices. Wether or not they will actually act on those plans will probably depend on the Brexit negogiations, but it would probably be stupid of them to not have a plan B in case their London office loses acces to the EU market. Recommended reading: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/arti ... xit-timing


no problem, mate. :D

Not just banks, car manufacturers, and other businesses are rethinking before investing in the UK at the moment, or want guarantees from Westminster that any negative outcome will be compensated. I would do the same if I were about to invest many millions of pounds.

Bostrom wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
First up I honestly believe the situation between England and Scotland is in some ways like the EU and UK. Huge trade between each other, so much commonality, freedom of movement, finance, citizens in each other's states, etc etc etc.

Let me tell you this - when I read the EU v UK arguments - they are nearly all parallel to the UK v Scotland - in reverse.
It's almost surreal sometimes. The same arguments some of you passionate continental European posters argue - why would you want to leave, life will be difficult afterwards, costs will rise, blah blah blah - are EXACTLY the same arguments the UK uses against the Scottish leaving the UK. It's like a mini UK Scotchit - or for want of a better term. The same rhetoric, the same bitching moaning you are idiots, no you are idiots - it would almost be amusing if it wasn't so tragic. The Brits want out of a Union. The Scots want to stay in a union. But they want out of a union. I'm getting confused.


They are, you are not the only one to make that connection. Any argument May uses for leaving the EU can be used by Nicola Sturgeon for Scottish independence. http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwo ... -stalemate
[/quote]

Yes, but one big difference, Scotland wants to join (or remain) in a much bigger union.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 3:25 pm

Olddog wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
getting called fascist or racist or other names


I may have missed it but could you show me theses posts?


Apologies for the delay, been working.

To answer your question take a look at the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread. Apparently the Brexit voters did so because they wanted to "get rid of the foreign workers", they "followed UKIP" etc. The first example brings one to the conclusion that we were racist the second that we were fascist.

I fully acknowledge that there were some voters who vented their feelings on those subjects but then tell me one European country that hasn't got either of these in their overall population. Which makes the UK no better or worse on that subject.

You'll see that UKIP have been obliterated at the polls recently but of course there are posters who say that's because they have been assimilated into the Conservatives. Really? Whilst the Tories are perhaps closer than the Libs to UKIP, and some of the Kippers may have changed their allegiances, don't try and paint everything with such a broad brush.
 
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par13del
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Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 6:56 pm

I actually find it hard to believe that millions who were UKIP supporters in the referendum would just abandon them months later after the slow pace that Brexit has taken and the announcements coming out of the May government, I would have thought that they would have kept the UKIP around to ensure that they kept the feet on the fire. Now if the millions were not really UKIP supporters then wipe out makes sense as they were a fringe party which the mainstream did not want around.

http://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 9:25 pm

par13del wrote:
I actually find it hard to believe that millions who were UKIP supporters in the referendum would just abandon them months later after the slow pace that Brexit has taken and the announcements coming out of the May government, I would have thought that they would have kept the UKIP around to ensure that they kept the feet on the fire. Now if the millions were not really UKIP supporters then wipe out makes sense as they were a fringe party which the mainstream did not want around.

http://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results


You're right I think. The connotations that came/come with the name of UKIP are not nice and my theory is that whilst they were about and making a political noise people who were too frightened to voice the same opinions themselves let them get on with it. But when it comes to actually supporting them there's no activity, as no one with any sense wants to be seen to be like them. In some ways that's why posts which highlight UKIP support as the norm for Brexit voters is so annoying. As a party they made a lot of noise but their influence was limited to those who would have supported them anyway. Millions who voted to leave did so for many and varied reasons that had nothing to do with UKIP, but because they made the most noise one is automatically linked to them. The Tory party have always been careful to disassociate themselves from them. And let's face it, the media will hook onto anything that they think will sell, credible or not.
 
vc10
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Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 15, 2017 9:47 pm

At the last general election 4 million people voted for UKIP and got just one MP. So rather than vote for UKIP now, if they add their 4 million votes to the party which wants to leave the EU then they can possibly get Mrs May a large majority and so make the leaving process run more smoothly. They perhaps have not rejected UKIP but are using their vote tactically
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 16, 2017 6:47 am

vc10 wrote:
At the last general election 4 million people voted for UKIP and got just one MP. So rather than vote for UKIP now, if they add their 4 million votes to the party which wants to leave the EU then they can possibly get Mrs May a large majority and so make the leaving process run more smoothly. They perhaps have not rejected UKIP but are using their vote tactically


The conservative party was split through the middle on the EU case. UKIP largely fed from those people and they have returned once their traditional party has embrace the core idea of leaving the EU and limit immigration. There are enough Tory MPs that support things like a burka ban so that's a bonus as well.
 
Olddog
Posts: 288
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 16, 2017 7:04 am

In my opinion, the Brexit should be soon history. The new EU is shaping up without the UK and it seems that the Germans and the French are ready to work on the next step with some countries like Luxembourg , Netherlands and so on. The big question will be Italia: I don't doubt that they will want to be in but with the next election and an economy that mirrors Alitalia it can be complicated.
 
Pihero
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 16, 2017 8:08 am

When flawed perception leads to defamation :
A very good example of that process happened here :
See LAH1 post #581 :

" you'll notice that most -but not all - UK posters have either stopped posting or post less often. Whilst it's good to discuss with those who put good balanced and informative points, getting called fascist or racist or other names simply because we uphold a principle which we think is right"

... to which Olddog asks :

"I may have missed it but could you show me theses posts?"

Then LAH1, post #584 :

"Just read through this thread. It's got plenty of examples where "racist" and "fascist" have been used to either describe people in the UK who voted leave or as a general observation of the climate of the country.
Funny it was you two who jumped on this."


... and when challenged to provide proof :
LAH1 wrote in his post # 592 :

..."take a look at the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread. Apparently the Brexit voters did so because they wanted to "get rid of the foreign workers", they "followed UKIP" etc. The first example brings one to the conclusion that we were racist the second that we were fascist."

So in fact we didn't insult anybody, did we ?
In many countries, this could be characterized as defamation. Here, it only shows the tactics of the brexiteers who are all the time claiming victimisation, whereas they often are the main culprits.


VC10 : "At the last general election 4 million people voted for UKIP and got just one MP. So rather than vote for UKIP now, if they add their 4 million votes to the party which wants to leave the EU then they can possibly get Mrs May a large majority and so make the leaving process run more smoothly. They perhaps have not rejected UKIP but are using their vote tactically
"

I've never understood how a huge majority at the parliament could change Mrs May's hands in the coming negotiations.
Please enlighten us.
Contrail designer
 
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seahawk
Posts: 5025
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 16, 2017 8:22 am

Well a huge majority would at least confirm the support for her position by the British population.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5798
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 16, 2017 8:24 am

Pihero wrote:
So in fact we didn't insult anybody, did we ?
In many countries, this could be characterized as defamation.


More importantly, he called the UKIP fachist....

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton

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