Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:48 am

speedbored wrote:
Arrgggghhh - so hard to resist replying to some of the nonsense posted here.

Only one third of EU members are currently net contributors to the EU, effectively paying for access. Two thirds of members, as net beneficiaries, effectively get paid to be part of the single market. So the UK being allowed to continue to trade with the EU as at present, without paying anything at all, would still be a worse deal than that currently enjoyed by two-thirds of EU members.


Great the UK will keep the money. And what the EU will do? Just stand still and mourn? Or just adopt a new budget with the new reality?

speedbored wrote:
Given that the EU-UK balance of trade is in the EU's favour, surely it should be the EU paying the UK for access to the UK market, not the other way around?


The EU will pay: it is called trade tariffs, or did you forget that ?
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:50 am

OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Good that he is coming to the border to see first hand the issues faced. I think the EU are taking it more seriously in recent weeks as Ireland have said they may need EU aid to soften the blow in any so called hard Brexit.


Yesterday he was in Spain, apparently he's touring every country and recruiting local negotiators and advisers for specific issues to each country.


Irish ministers have according to reports asked the EU to tone down the rhetoric as it is causing problems already. According to a Sky News report today where they reported from the border local MPs ( Irish ) have said its opened up the border dispute on a never resolved territorial waters issue. This of course will be the EU border too. Then of course the fact that you sometimes cross the border ( land ) 4-5 times in a one hour car journey all adds to the issues. You will never be able to close all of those even back in the days of conflict they never managed it and that was a heavily armed border.


It's the British the ones who don't want any more EU citizens, not the other way around.

They'd better come up with a good plan.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:53 am

OA260 wrote:
Irish ministers have according to reports asked the EU to tone down the rhetoric as it is causing problems already. According to a Sky News report today where they reported from the border local MPs ( Irish ) have said its opened up the border dispute on a never resolved territorial waters issue. This of course will be the EU border too. Then of course the fact that you sometimes cross the border ( land ) 4-5 times in a one hour car journey all adds to the issues. You will never be able to close all of those even back in the days of conflict they never managed it and that was a heavily armed border.

It is certainly interesting to see how they will get around all of that.


So the UK vote to take back control, close the borders, but as it is a mess to solve in Ireland you expect the EU to fix it and obviously pay for it ?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:55 am

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
lol, what are you trying to accomplish with this? You pleat for a far better deal than any other, including EU members, so yeah quite modest

Arrgggghhh - so hard to resist replying to some of the nonsense posted here.

Only one third of EU members are currently net contributors to the EU, effectively paying for access. Two thirds of members, as net beneficiaries, effectively get paid to be part of the single market. So the UK being allowed to continue to trade with the EU as at present, without paying anything at all, would still be a worse deal than that currently enjoyed by two-thirds of EU members.

Given that the EU-UK balance of trade is in the EU's favour, surely it should be the EU paying the UK for access to the UK market, not the other way around?


I thought you argued this wasn't about money, but being more souverein again?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 10:08 am

Olddog wrote:
When someone post that Eu should basically breaks all its rules to no disturb UK wishes, calling that trolling is a very nice and polite way to express my thinkings.


No, the EU should not talk about punishing the UK, but the need to follow its own rules. In the end it should not matter if the UK is better off or worse, it should only matter that the rules of the EU and regulations of the common market are followed. That is the only interest of the citizens of the EU countries.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 10:17 am

seahawk wrote:
No, the EU should not talk about punishing the UK, but the need to follow its own rules.


That sentence contains two opposite concepts. When the EU tells the UK they will follow the rules, the UK (mostly right wing press) is shouting it s a punishment !
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 10:23 am

Olddog wrote:
seahawk wrote:
No, the EU should not talk about punishing the UK, but the need to follow its own rules.


That sentence contains two opposite concepts. When the EU tells the UK they will follow the rules, the UK (mostly right wing press) is shouting it s a punishment !


What the UK press says is only important for the UK. EU leaders should simply stay with the facts and nothing more as the facts are quite simple.

Bloody simple in fact, as the choice basically boils down to a choice of sovereignty vs.access to the market and not because of some political wish, but because of the need for common standards and regulations in a common market.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 10:26 am

JJJ wrote:
OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Yesterday he was in Spain, apparently he's touring every country and recruiting local negotiators and advisers for specific issues to each country.


Irish ministers have according to reports asked the EU to tone down the rhetoric as it is causing problems already. According to a Sky News report today where they reported from the border local MPs ( Irish ) have said its opened up the border dispute on a never resolved territorial waters issue. This of course will be the EU border too. Then of course the fact that you sometimes cross the border ( land ) 4-5 times in a one hour car journey all adds to the issues. You will never be able to close all of those even back in the days of conflict they never managed it and that was a heavily armed border.


It's the British the ones who don't want any more EU citizens, not the other way around.

They'd better come up with a good plan.


I think you misunderstand. Its the Irish who are the ones really pushing and calling for a special deal. Dont forget 65-70% of people in Northern Ireland are Irish citizens and increasing by the week due to a rush for Irish passports which they are all entitled to by birth ( with some limitations ) . Those are all by default EU citizens and Ireland is a unique case. To be honest the British ( Mainland ) could not give a damn really if NI voted to unite with ROI apart from the hard line Unionists but the majority in NI ( Irish and British ) still want to remain part of the UK despite voting to remain in the EU. So when people say the British have to fix it they are ignorant of the reality on the ground and its that reality that will win in the end not stupid rhetoric from either side. Thats why the border and NI is in the top of negotiations.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 10:34 am

OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
OA260 wrote:

Irish ministers have according to reports asked the EU to tone down the rhetoric as it is causing problems already. According to a Sky News report today where they reported from the border local MPs ( Irish ) have said its opened up the border dispute on a never resolved territorial waters issue. This of course will be the EU border too. Then of course the fact that you sometimes cross the border ( land ) 4-5 times in a one hour car journey all adds to the issues. You will never be able to close all of those even back in the days of conflict they never managed it and that was a heavily armed border.


It's the British the ones who don't want any more EU citizens, not the other way around.

They'd better come up with a good plan.


I think you misunderstand. Its the Irish who are the ones really pushing and calling for a special deal. Dont forget 65-70% of people in Northern Ireland are Irish citizens and increasing by the week due to a rush for Irish passports which they are all entitled to by birth ( with some limitations ) . Those are all by default EU citizens and Ireland is a unique case.


Those EU citizens will be permitted to enter the EU without any issue, because they are EU citizens. It's the other way around that's up to the UK on how much are they willing to compromise in freedom of movement. What the EU cannot do is for the UK to unilaterally institute movement restrictions while the EU waves everyone in.

The ball is in the UK court and the kind of promises they have made to the people who voted for Brexit.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 11:02 am

Dutchy wrote:
speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
lol, what are you trying to accomplish with this? You pleat for a far better deal than any other, including EU members, so yeah quite modest

Arrgggghhh - so hard to resist replying to some of the nonsense posted here.

Only one third of EU members are currently net contributors to the EU, effectively paying for access. Two thirds of members, as net beneficiaries, effectively get paid to be part of the single market. So the UK being allowed to continue to trade with the EU as at present, without paying anything at all, would still be a worse deal than that currently enjoyed by two-thirds of EU members.

Given that the EU-UK balance of trade is in the EU's favour, surely it should be the EU paying the UK for access to the UK market, not the other way around?


I thought you argued this wasn't about money, but being more souverein again?

If you are talking about the referendum vote then, yes, I did. But that has nothing at all to do with any of the above - I was rebuffing your "better than any other" claim, which is clearly nonsense as 2 out of 3 EU members currently pay less than nothing.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 11:08 am

JJJ wrote:

Those EU citizens will be permitted to enter the EU without any issue


So your saying that there will be no issue on the Irish border separating Irish EU citizen from fellow Irish EU citizen? The farmers moving their cattle from one part of their land to another part of their land which straddles the border for example? Cross border workers who live in Newry and commute to Dundalk?

Sadly its not that simple. As I said its a very complex issue and quite unique situation as the majority on the Island of Ireland would not accept physical barriers in what they believe to be their own country. That is why the EU are so concerned and its top of the agenda. A peace process is at stake. If the UK had not shared a land border with ROI then the EU would have taken a much tougher stance believe me.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 11:19 am

OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Those EU citizens will be permitted to enter the EU without any issue


So your saying that there will be no issue on the Irish border separating Irish EU citizen from fellow Irish EU citizen? The farmers moving their cattle from one part of their land to another part of their land which straddles the border for example? Cross border workers who live in Newry and commute to Dundalk?


Just like Gibraltar. But again, it is the British who want out. It is up to them to decide if they want free movement of workers, cattle and other goods and services.

They voted for something, and now their government has to deliver. The EU no longer has a vote on that.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 11:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
Rhetoric. Is it perfect, no, but does it help its members yes. As I said I don't subscribe to it. The EU needs to reform and Marcon has the agenda for it. The UK doesn't get punished, but no favors either. There must be consequences to leaving the EU and no cherry picking. Current opinion polls show that in no other member more than 50% of its citizens want to leave.


Despite all the claims of the Leave Campaign, opinion polls still projected a Remain victory in the UK referendum.
In relation to the EU voting, Ireland had to vote twice because they got it wrong the first time, then there was talk of future treaty votes being done in the legislature versus public vote.
The EU has some issues which must / should be addressed, unfortunately, I do not believe they will be looked at in the current environment of Brexit.
At the present time, it is more about the EU being together, showing solidarity, closer union, ensuring no cherry picking and a price to be paid for leaving, a large number of these are to discourage anyone else from thinking the impossible.
The Remain campaign by the DC government was based on fear more than reason, the philosophy appears to be the same thinking in the EU today.
Whether good or bad, right or wrong, only time will tell. France now has a president who is pro-EU, the upcoming elections is very important since he does not lead a major party, the make up of the assembly will be interesting.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 12:01 pm

Olddog wrote:
So the UK vote to take back control, close the borders, but as it is a mess to solve in Ireland you expect the EU to fix it and obviously pay for it ?


I don't this so, however, the EU spokesman ensured that in their opening statements Ireland and Gibraltar were specifically mentioned, they were ensuring that the rights of the EU citizens were protected, should we not expect the UK to do the same, after all, one of the complaints is the mass of EU citizens heading to the UK. Wonder why Spain was given a veto on Gibraltar but Ireland was not given one on Northern Ireland, the only place where a land border exist?
Maybe the EU thinks that is less important to them so they will not be funding any resolution.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 12:02 pm

Unless I missed that Ireland was given a veto...
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 1:22 pm

JJJ wrote:
OA260 wrote:
. But again, it is the British who want out. It is up to them to decide if they want free movement of workers, cattle and other goods and services.

They voted for something, and now their government has to deliver. The EU no longer has a vote on that.


But again Im not talking about the effect on the British Im talking about the Irish and Republic of Ireland and their citizens in NI. The EU seem to realise this and Ireland will be effected by Brexit more then anyone else in the EU. So to be honest its for the Irish and rest of the EU to protect 70% of Irish EU citizens in NI and Irish citizens along the border area.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 5:20 pm

Bank of England governor Mark Carney has warned of a consumer spending squeeze this year as inflation rises and real wages fall.
This year will be "a more challenging time for British households" and "wages won't keep up with prices", he said.
He was upbeat about wage growth beyond 2017 - but only if the government secures a "smooth" exit from the EU.


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39880844
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 5:57 pm

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said that he has held useful discussions with the European Commission's chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier.

Mr Barnier told reporters in Government Buildings that he was very aware of Irish concerns and that he was ready to find solutions
Mr Kenny earlier said the challenges arising from Brexit were extremely serious and it was essential that all affected have an opportunity to have their voices heard.
He was speaking after Mr Barnier addressed a joint sitting of the Dáil and Seanad.
The Taoiseach thanked Mr Barnier for his engagement with Ireland since he became head of the commission's Brexit taskforce.
He said there was a political challenge ahead and there would be need for a "flexible and imaginative" approach.

Mr Kenny welcomed that the unique circumstances that apply to Ireland were fully acknowledged in the Commission's guidelines in supporting and protecting the achievements of the Good Friday Agreement.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0511/87431 ... -reaction/
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:35 pm

https://twitter.com/PolishEmbassyUK/sta ... 5711348738

That's a rather interesting take from the "Visegrad" group.
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
Bank of England governor Mark Carney has warned of a consumer spending squeeze this year as inflation rises and real wages fall.
This year will be "a more challenging time for British households" and "wages won't keep up with prices", he said.
He was upbeat about wage growth beyond 2017 - but only if the government secures a "smooth" exit from the EU.


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39880844


Hardly the end of the world "-It came as the bank trimmed UK economic growth forecasts for 2017 from 2% to 1.9% and held interest rates at 0.25%.
The bank, unveiling its Quarterly Inflation Report, also raised its forecast for inflation this year to 2.8% from its February forecast of 2.4%."

So growth down 0.1% and inflation forecast to rise 0.4%. And if all the predictions of catastrophe he has made so far since the referendum are as accurate we won't see it happening at all.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 1:22 am

OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Those EU citizens will be permitted to enter the EU without any issue


So your saying that there will be no issue on the Irish border separating Irish EU citizen from fellow Irish EU citizen? The farmers moving their cattle from one part of their land to another part of their land which straddles the border for example? Cross border workers who live in Newry and commute to Dundalk?

Sadly its not that simple. As I said its a very complex issue and quite unique situation as the majority on the Island of Ireland would not accept physical barriers in what they believe to be their own country. That is why the EU are so concerned and its top of the agenda. A peace process is at stake. If the UK had not shared a land border with ROI then the EU would have taken a much tougher stance believe me.

It's the UK to avoid invasion of "Polish plumbers" via the ROI-NI border. Whether the UK will build a Trump style Mexican wall, or they will do something else, that will be decided in London.

"A peace process is at stake."

No - no - no! Please don't tell me that the ROI and UK risk a Syria-ISIS style conflict again. In that case, please let it be EU26 instead of EU27.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 5:20 am

LAH1 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Bank of England governor Mark Carney has warned of a consumer spending squeeze this year as inflation rises and real wages fall.
This year will be "a more challenging time for British households" and "wages won't keep up with prices", he said.
He was upbeat about wage growth beyond 2017 - but only if the government secures a "smooth" exit from the EU.


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39880844


Hardly the end of the world "-It came as the bank trimmed UK economic growth forecasts for 2017 from 2% to 1.9% and held interest rates at 0.25%.
The bank, unveiling its Quarterly Inflation Report, also raised its forecast for inflation this year to 2.8% from its February forecast of 2.4%."

So growth down 0.1% and inflation forecast to rise 0.4%. And if all the predictions of catastrophe he has made so far since the referendum are as accurate we won't see it happening at all.


Tell that to the people whose wages are falling while inflation is skyrocketing.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 6:09 am

LAH1 wrote:
So growth down 0.1% and inflation forecast to rise 0.4%. And if all the predictions of catastrophe he has made so far since the referendum are as accurate we won't see it happening at all.


I assume you are familiar with the concept of compound interest?

Image

This is the UK Economy being deprived of cash in an accelerating way.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 6:27 am

prebennorholm wrote:
OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Those EU citizens will be permitted to enter the EU without any issue


So your saying that there will be no issue on the Irish border separating Irish EU citizen from fellow Irish EU citizen? The farmers moving their cattle from one part of their land to another part of their land which straddles the border for example? Cross border workers who live in Newry and commute to Dundalk?

Sadly its not that simple. As I said its a very complex issue and quite unique situation as the majority on the Island of Ireland would not accept physical barriers in what they believe to be their own country. That is why the EU are so concerned and its top of the agenda. A peace process is at stake. If the UK had not shared a land border with ROI then the EU would have taken a much tougher stance believe me.

It's the UK to avoid invasion of "Polish plumbers" via the ROI-NI border. Whether the UK will build a Trump style Mexican wall, or they will do something else, that will be decided in London.


Let's just quote the relevant EU position.

The Union has consistently supported the goal of peace and reconciliation enshrined in the
Good Friday Agreement, and continuing to support and protect the achievements, benefits and
commitments of the Peace Process will remain of paramount importance. In view of the
unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be
required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of
the Union legal order. In this context, the Union should also recognise existing bilateral
agreements and arrangements between the United Kingdom and Ireland which are compatible
with EU law.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 6:30 am

JJJ wrote:
which are compatible
with EU law.
[/quote]

read: everything else will have to be dropped.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 6:39 am

Aesma wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
Aesma wrote:


Hardly the end of the world "-It came as the bank trimmed UK economic growth forecasts for 2017 from 2% to 1.9% and held interest rates at 0.25%.
The bank, unveiling its Quarterly Inflation Report, also raised its forecast for inflation this year to 2.8% from its February forecast of 2.4%."

So growth down 0.1% and inflation forecast to rise 0.4%. And if all the predictions of catastrophe he has made so far since the referendum are as accurate we won't see it happening at all.


Tell that to the people whose wages are falling while inflation is skyrocketing.


Again, I don't deny a rise, but "skyrocketing?" It's going down the excess line of descriptions that other posters use, like all Brexiteers are "fascists".
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 6:47 am

tommy1808 wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
So growth down 0.1% and inflation forecast to rise 0.4%. And if all the predictions of catastrophe he has made so far since the referendum are as accurate we won't see it happening at all.


I assume you are familiar with the concept of compound interest?

Image

This is the UK Economy being deprived of cash in an accelerating way.

best regards
Thomas


And over the three year forecast period, it is more bullish.

Sterling has strengthened this year after its precipitate fall following the Brexit vote.
The European - and indeed global - economy is stronger than expected, important for a trading nation like the UK.
Wage growth will strengthen, it says, as the employment market tightens.
Inflation risk will dissipate as the effects of sterling's decline falls out of the data.
The incomes squeeze will reverse.
This is a carefully worded Inflation Report, drafted, of course, in the middle of an election campaign.
It is cautious in the short term, with the Bank indicating privately that 2017, when it comes to that key issue of wage growth, could be "the worst of it". BBC

Again, it's not the best news but it certainly isn't the worst.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 8:16 am

JJJ wrote:

Let's just quote the relevant EU position.



All subject to changes from what Im hearing. It will be impossible to secure the EU-UK border between ROI/NI with 200 crossing points and a very dangerous thing to do.So between them all they will need to be dynamic in their solutions and the EU will need to give quite a bit and maybe as suggested have special agreements in place for NI.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 9:04 am

OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Let's just quote the relevant EU position.



All subject to changes from what Im hearing. It will be impossible to secure the EU-UK border between ROI/NI with 200 crossing points and a very dangerous thing to do.So between them all they will need to be dynamic in their solutions and the EU will need to give quite a bit and maybe as suggested have special agreements in place for NI.


Well, the UK wanted to secure it's own borders, to bad if that gets expensive for them. That is after all what they wanted.

Best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 9:13 am

tommy1808 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Let's just quote the relevant EU position.



All subject to changes from what Im hearing. It will be impossible to secure the EU-UK border between ROI/NI with 200 crossing points and a very dangerous thing to do.So between them all they will need to be dynamic in their solutions and the EU will need to give quite a bit and maybe as suggested have special agreements in place for NI.


Well, the UK wanted to secure it's own borders, to bad if that gets expensive for them. That is after all what they wanted.

Best regards
Thomas


Again Im talking about the Irish point of view not the British one. Unless you know the border area well its hard to really see the reality on the ground and I sense that a lot of people think various things without knowledge of the politics and realities. Maybe why Barnier came to town.


Michel Barnier visit about what he learns from us, not vice-versa

There was a lot of fuss around Leinster House this week in anticipation of the arrival of EU Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, writes Juno McEnroe.

Fresh flowers were out, security was increased and the best ties and dresses were worn. But his visit will probably be not so much about what Irish citizens and parliamentarians learnt from the erudite EU official but more what he took away himself.

Barnier was left in no doubt about Irish needs. Irish negotiators will be hoping that it will be these concerns, doubts and demands that will hang on the Frenchman’s mind when he does battle with Britain on behalf of the 27 member states during the Brexit negotiations in the months ahead.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints ... 49900.html

Lets hope that indeed he did learn something and understands the reality.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 9:31 am

OA260 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
OA260 wrote:

All subject to changes from what Im hearing. It will be impossible to secure the EU-UK border between ROI/NI with 200 crossing points and a very dangerous thing to do.So between them all they will need to be dynamic in their solutions and the EU will need to give quite a bit and maybe as suggested have special agreements in place for NI.


Well, the UK wanted to secure it's own borders, to bad if that gets expensive for them. That is after all what they wanted.

Best regards
Thomas


Again Im talking about the Irish point of view not the British one. Unless you know the border area well its hard to really see the reality on the ground and I sense that a lot of people think various things without knowledge of the politics and realities. Maybe why Barnier came to town.


Which is fine and understandable, but the again what is the EU supposed to do? The UK want borders, they voted out, ostensibly in a "we do not want EU immigrants" campaign.

Do you really think they meant "OK, maybe not the Irish"? Where do you draw the line? It would be terribly unfair and absolutely against EU principles to discriminate between nationalities in this way (and having a single position is the basis of the EU strength during negotiations).

That said, there are cross-border agreements for example, Moroccan citizens living in the Tangiers province can enter Ceuta and Melilla (but not the Spanish mainland) visa-free. They still can't take up employment, but such border agreements in isolated border areas are possible.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 9:44 am

JJJ wrote:

Which is fine and understandable, but the again what is the EU supposed to do? The UK want borders, they voted out, ostensibly in a "we do not want EU immigrants" campaign.

.


The CTA is a unique agreement due to the history of Ireland ( both sides ) . Apples and Oranges to compare Spain - Morocco to the Irish situation. Do Moroccans born in Morocco have Spanish citizenship by birthright?

The UK and Irish both want to maintain the CTA and its not as if the economies are that different ROI/NI in fact they are intertwined.A lot of the laws on food safety and other standards will remain unchanged after Brexit. Again unlike Spain and Morocco. It just re iterates my point before about peoples lack of understanding on the issue.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 8717
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 9:48 am

LAH1 wrote:
Sterling has strengthened this year after its precipitate fall following the Brexit vote.
The European - and indeed global - economy is stronger than expected, important for a trading nation like the UK.
Wage growth will strengthen, it says, as the employment market tightens.
Inflation risk will dissipate as the effects of sterling's decline falls out of the data.
The incomes squeeze will reverse.
This is a carefully worded Inflation Report, drafted, of course, in the middle of an election campaign.
It is cautious in the short term, with the Bank indicating privately that 2017, when it comes to that key issue of wage growth, could be "the worst of it". BBC

Again, it's not the best news but it certainly isn't the worst.


Financial analysts I heard on a business radio were saying that the man appeared very annoyed by the fact there is no clear Brexit plan, and was optimistic only if Brexit was very soft.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Olddog
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 9:52 am

Well the EU poured already more than 1, 3 billion to "help" the peace process....

Ireland had a border for decades with the northern part and suddenly it will not be possible to make one again?

I think you really mean is that the UK vote to leave and did not care about northern Ireland. And as that part voted to remain, the British part does not want to build that border and get responsibility and unpopularity for it.

I bet Ireland and UK are both trying to deflect on the EU that mess.
Last edited by Olddog on Fri May 12, 2017 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA260
Posts: 21746
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 9:57 am

Olddog wrote:
Well the EU poured already more than 1, 3 billion to "help" the peace process....

Ireland had a border for decades with the northern part and suddenly it will not be possible to make one again?


Did you read the Good Friday agreement cover to cover?
 
Olddog
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 10:00 am

I did as part of my studies some 20 years ago. Obviously at that time it was supposed to be a huge progress. It is not the EU that voted to make that agreement dead on arrival in june 2016.
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 10:08 am

prebennorholm wrote:
No - no - no! Please don't tell me that the ROI and UK risk a Syria-ISIS style conflict again. In that case, please let it be EU26 instead of EU27.


It's won't be Ireland that's at risk of anything, it will be people in the UK who become targets for dissident paramilitaries. Outside of one car bomb attack in the mid 1970s, Ireland had very few issues during the Troubles. In fact, the IRA and their like didn't even attack targets in Scotland and Wales, only England and British nationals in places such as Germany and France.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 01083.html
 
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OA260
Posts: 21746
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 10:12 am

Olddog wrote:
I did as part of my studies some 20 years ago. Obviously at that time it was supposed to be a huge progress. It is not the EU that voted to make that agreement dead on arrival in june 2016.


I think we are past that stage of the blaming game. Time to move on to a new record ! Time to actually digest the legal and current realities and what can and cant be done going forward. What parts of the agreement can be adjusted without years of legal battles.

Just for anyone that did not read the agreement it is here and it may offer a better understanding of the task ahead :



The Agreement
Agreement reached in the multi-party negotiations
TABLE OF CONTENTS
1. Declaration of Support
2. Constitutional Issues
Annex A: Draft Clauses/Schedules for Incorporation in British
Legislation
Annex B: Irish Gove
rnment Draft Legislation
3. Strand One:
Democratic Institutions
in Northern Ireland
4. Strand Two:
North/South Ministerial Council
5. Strand Three:
British - Irish Council
British - Irish Intergovernmental Conference
6. Rights, Safeguards and Equality of Opportunity
Human Rights
United Kingdom Legislation
New Institutions in Northern Ireland
Comparable Steps by the Irish Government
A Joint Committee
Reconciliation and Victims of Violence
Economic, Social and Cultural Issues
7. Decommissioning
8. Security
9. Policing and Justice
Annex A: Commission on Polic
ing for Northern Ireland
Annex B: Review of the Criminal Justice System
10. Prisoners
11. Validation, Implementation and Review
Validation and Implementation
Review Procedures Following Implementation
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - -
ANNEX: Agreement between the Government of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain a
nd Northern Ireland and the
Government of Ireland.
Tablecontents.htm
DECLARATION OF SUPPORT
1. We, the participants in the multi-pa
rty negotiations, believe that the
agreement we have negotiated offers a truly historic opportunity for a new
beginning.
2. The tragedies of the past have le
ft a deep and profoundly regrettable
legacy of suffering. We must never fo
rget those who have died or been
injured, and their families. But we can best honour them through a fresh
start, in which we firmly dedicate
ourselves to th
e achievement of
reconciliation, tolerance,
and mutual trust, and to the protection and
vindication of the human rights of all.
3. We are committed to partnership, e
quality and mutual respect as the
basis of relationships within Nort
hern Ireland, between North and South,
and between these islands.
4. We reaffirm our total and abso
lute commitment to exclusively
democratic and peaceful means of
resolving differences on political
issues, and our opposition to any use or
threat of force by others for any
political purpose, whether in regard
to this agreement or otherwise.
5. We acknowledge the substantial di
fferences between our continuing,
and equally legitimate, political aspi
rations. However, we will endeavour
to strive in every practical way to
wards reconciliation and rapprochement
within the framework of democratic
and agreed arrangements. We pledge
that we will, in good faith, work to ensure the success of each and every
one of the arrangements to be estab
lished under this agreement. It is
accepted that all of the institutional
and constitutional arrangements - an
Assembly in Northern Ireland, a
North/South Ministerial Council,
implementation bodies, a British-Irish Council and a British-Irish
Intergovernmental Conference and any
amendments to British Acts of
Parliament and the Constitution
of Ireland - are interlocking and
interdependent and that in particular
the functioning of the Assembly and
the North/South Council are so closel
y inter-related that the success of
each depends on that of the other.
6. Accordingly, in a spirit of c
oncord, we strongly commend this
agreement to the people, North and South, for their approval.
CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES
1. The participants endorse the comm
itment made by the British and Irish
Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-
Irish Agreement, they will:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of what
ever choice is freely exercised by a
majority of the people of Northern
Ireland with regard to its status,
whether they prefer to continue to
support the Union with Great Britain or
a sovereign united Ireland;
(ii) recognise that it is for the peop
le of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts re
spectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right
of self-determinati
on on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently gi
ven, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wis
h, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject
to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
(iii) acknowledge that while a subs
tantial section of
the people in
Northern Ireland share the legitimate wi
sh of a majority
of the people of
the island of Ireland for a united Ireland,
the present wish of a majority of
the people of Northern Ireland, freely
exercised and legitimate, is to
maintain the Union and, accordingly, that
Northern Ireland’s status as part
of the United Kingdom reflects and
relies upon that wish; and that it
would be wrong to make any change in
the status of Northern Ireland save
with the consent of a majority of its people;
(iv) affirm that if, in the future, the
people of the island of
Ireland exercise
their right of self-determi
nation on the basis set out in
sections (i) and (ii)
above to bring about a united Ireland
, it will be a binding obligation on
both Governments to introduce and suppor
t in their respective Parliaments
legislation to give effect to that wish;
(v) affirm that whatever choice is fr
eely exercised by a majority of the
people of Northern Ireland, the power
of the sovereign government with
jurisdiction there shall be exercised w
ith rigorous impartiality on behalf of
all the people in the diversity of their
identities and traditions and shall be
founded on the principles of full resp
ect for, and equality of, civil,
political, social and cultural rights, of
freedom from discrimination for all
citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the
identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;
(vi) recognise the birthr
ight of all the people of
Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is a
ccepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change
in the status of Northern Ireland.
2. The participants also note that
the two Governments have accordingly
undertaken in the context of this co
mprehensive political agreement, to
propose and support changes in, resp
ectively, the Constitution of Ireland
and in British legislation relating to
the constitutional status of Northern
Ireland.
ANNEX A
DRAFT CLAUSES/SCHEDULES FOR INCORPORATION IN
BRITISH LEGISLATION
1. (1) It is hereby declared that Nort
hern Ireland in its entirety remains
part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the
consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll
held for the purposes of this sect
ion in accordance with Schedule 1.
(2) But if the wish expressed by a major
ity in such a poll is that Northern
Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a
united Ireland, the Secretar
y of State shall lay before Parliament such
proposals to give effect to that wi
sh as may be agreed between Her
Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of
Ireland.
2. The Government of Ireland Act 1920
is repealed; and this Act shall
have effect notwithstanding a
ny other previous enactment.
SCHEDULE 1
POLLS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SECTION 1
1. The Secretary of State may by order
direct the holding of a poll for the
purposes of section 1 on a date
specified in the order.
2. Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretar
y of State shall exercise the power
under paragraph 1 if at any time it appear
s likely to him that a majority of
those voting would express a wish th
at Northern Ireland should cease to
be part of the United Kingdom and
form part of a united Ireland.
3. The Secretary of State shall no
t make an order under paragraph 1
earlier than seven years after the ho
lding of a previous poll under this
Schedule.
4. (Remaining paragraphs al
ong the lines of paragra
phs 2 and 3 of existing
Schedule 1 to 1973 Act.)
ANNEX B
IRISH GOVERNMENT DRAFT LEGISLATION TO AMEND THE
CONSTITUTION
Add to Article 29 the following sections:
7.
1. The State may consent to be bound by the British-Irish Agreement done
at Belfast on the day of 1998, here
inafter called the Agreement.
1. Any institution established by or u
nder the Agreement may exercise the
powers and functions there
by conferred on it in respect of all or any part
of the island of Ireland notwithst
anding any other provision of this
Constitution conferring a like power or function on any person or any
organ of State appointed under or crea
ted or established by or under this
Constitution. Any power or function conferred on such an institution in
relation to the settlement or resolution
of disputes or controversies may be
in addition to or in substitution for
any like power or function conferred
by this Constitution on any such person or organ of State as aforesaid.
1. If the Government declare that th
e State has become obliged, pursuant
to the Agreement, to give effect to the amendment of this Constitution
referred to therein, then, notwith
standing Article
46 hereof, this
Constitution shall be amended as follows:
i. the following Articles sh
all be substituted for Articles 2 and 3 of
the Irish text:
"2. [Irish text to
be inserted here]
3. [Irish text to be
inserted here]"
ii. the following Articles shall be substituted for Articles 2 and 3 of the
English text:
"Article 2
It is the entitlement and birthright
of every person born in the island of
Ireland, which includes its islands and s
eas, to be part of the Irish nation.
That is also the entitlement of
all persons otherwise qualified in
accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish
nation cherishes its special affinity
with people of Irish ancestry living
abroad who share its cultural
identity and heritage.
Article 3
1. It is the firm will of the Irish nati
on, in harmony and friendship, to unite
all the people who share th
e territory of the island
of Ireland, in all the
diversity of their identities and trad
itions, recognising that a united Ireland
shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a
majority of the people, democratically
expressed, in both jurisdictions in
the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by
this Constitution shall have the like
area and extent of
application as the
laws enacted by the Parliament that
existed immediately before the
coming into operation of this Constitution.
2. Institutions with executive power
s and functions that are shared
between those jurisdictions may be
established by their respective
responsible authorities for stated
purposes and may exercise powers and
functions in respect of all or
any part of the island."
iii. the following section shall be added to the Irish text of this Article:
"8. [Irish text to be
inserted here]"
and
iv. the following section shall be added to the English text of this Article:
"8. The State may exercise extra-terr
itorial jurisdiction in accordance with
the generally recognised principles of international law."
4. If a declaration under this sec
tion is made, this subsection and
subsection 3, other than the amendment of this Constitution effected
thereby, and subsection 5 of this se
ction shall be omitted from every
official text of this Constitution
published thereafter, but notwithstanding
such omission this section shall cont
inue to have the force of law.
5. If such a declaration is not made w
ithin twelve months of this section
being added to this Constitution or
such longer period as may be provided
for by law, this section shall cease to have effect and shall be omitted
from every official text of this
Constitution published thereafter.
STRAND ONE
DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS IN NORTHERN IRELAND
1. This agreement provides for a demo
cratically elected Assembly in
Northern Ireland which is inclusiv
e in its membership, capable of
exercising executive and legislative authority, and subject to safeguards to
protect the rights and
interests of all side
s of the community.
The Assembly
2. A 108-member Assembly will be
elected by PR(STV) from existing
Westminster constituencies.
3. The Assembly will exercise full legislative and executive authority in
respect of those matters currently wi
thin the responsibility of the six
Northern Ireland Government Departme
nts, with the possibility of taking
on responsibility for other matters as deta
iled elsewhere in this agreement.
4. The Assembly - operating where a
ppropriate on a cross-community
basis - will be the prime source of au
thority in respect of all devolved
responsibilities.
Safeguards
5. There will be safeguards to ensure
that all sections of the community
can participate and work together su
ccessfully in the operation of these
institutions and that all sections
of the community are protected,
including:
(a) allocations of Committee Ch
airs, Ministers and Committee
membership in proportion to party strengths;
(b) the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) and any Bill of
Rights for Northern Ireland supplemen
ting it, which neither the Assembly
nor public bodies can infringe,
together with a Human Rights
Commission;
(c) arrangements to provide that key
decisions and legislation are proofed
to ensure that they do not infringe the ECHR and any Bill of Rights for
Northern Ireland;
(d) arrangements to ensure key deci
sions are taken on a cross-community
basis;
(i) either parallel consent, i.e. a ma
jority of those members present and
voting, including a majority of the
unionist and nati
onalist designations
present and voting;
(ii) or a weighted majority (
60%) of members present and voting,
including at least 40% of each of th
e nationalist and unionist designations
present and voting.
Key decisions requiring cross-commun
ity support will be designated in
advance, including election of the
Chair of the Assembly, the First
Minister and Deputy First Mini
ster, standing orders and budget
allocations. In other cases such decisi
ons could be triggered by a petition
of concern brought by a significant
minority of Assembly members
(30/108).
(e) an Equality Commission to monito
r a statutory obligation to promote
equality of opportunity in specified ar
eas and parity of esteem between the
two main communities, and to investig
ate individual complaints against
public bodies.
Operation of the Assembly
6. At their first meeting, members
of the Assembly will register a
designation of identity - nationalist, uni
onist or other - for the purposes of
measuring cross-community support in
Assembly votes under the relevant
provisions above.
7. The Chair and Deputy Chair of the Assembly will be elected on a cross-
community basis, as set out in paragraph 5(d) above.
8. There will be a Committee for each of the main executive functions of
the Northern Ireland Administration. Th
e Chairs and Deputy Chairs of the
Assembly Committees will be allocated proportionally, using the d’Hondt
system. Membership of the Committees
will be in broad proportion to
party strengths in the Assembly to
ensure that the opportunity of
Committee places is available to all members.
9. The Committees will have a scrutiny, policy development and
consultation role with respect to
the Department with which each is
associated, and will have a role in in
itiation of legislation. They will have
the power to:

consider and advise on Departme
ntal budgets and Annual Plans in the
context of the overall
budget allocation;

approve relevant secondary legislation and take the Committee stage of
relevant primary legislation;

call for persons and papers;

initiate enquiries and make reports;

consider and advise on matters brought to the Committee by its
Minister.
10. Standing Committees other than
Departmental Committees may be
established as may be required from time to time.
11. The Assembly may appoint a sp
ecial Committee to examine and
report on whether a measure or proposal
for legislation is in conformity
with equality requirements, including the ECHR/Bill of Rights. The
Committee shall have the power to call pe
ople and papers to
assist in its
consideration of the matter. The Assembly shall then consider the report
of the Committee and can determine
the matter in accordance with the
cross-community consent procedure.
12. The above special procedure shall
be followed when requested by the
Executive Committee, or by the relevant Departmental Committee, voting
on a cross-community basis.
13. When there is a petition of concer
n as in 5(d) above, the Assembly
shall vote to determine whether the measure may proceed without
reference to this special procedure.
If this fails to achieve support on a
cross-community basis, as in 5(d)(i)
above, the special procedure shall be
followed.
Executive Authority
14. Executive authority to be discharg
ed on behalf of the Assembly by a
First Minister
and Deputy First Minister a
nd up to ten Ministers with Departmental
responsibilities.
15. The First Minister and Deputy First
Minister shall be jointly elected
into office by the Assembly voting on
a cross-community basis, according
to 5(d)(i) above.
16. Following the election of the First
Minister and Deput
y First Minister,
the posts of Ministers will be alloca
ted to parties on the basis of the
d’Hondt system by reference to the numb
er of seats each party has in the
Assembly.
17. The Ministers will constitute an Executive Committee, which will be
convened, and presided over, by the
First Minister and Deputy First
Minister.
18. The duties of the First Minister a
nd Deputy First Minister will include,
inter alia, dealing with and co-ordinating the work of the Executive
Committee and the response of the No
rthern Ireland administration to
external relationships.
19. The Executive Committee will provide a forum for the discussion of,
and agreement on, issues which cut ac
ross the responsibilities of two or
more Ministers, for prioritising executive and legislative proposals and for
recommending a common position where necessary (e.g. in dealing with
external relationships).
(iv) to take decisions by agreement
on policies and action
at an all-island
and cross-border level to be implem
ented by the bodies to be established
as set out in paragra
phs 8 and 9 below.
6. Each side to be in a position to ta
ke decisions in the Council within the
defined authority of those attending, th
rough the arrangemen
ts in place for
co-ordination of executive
functions within each juri
sdiction. Each side to
remain accountable to the Assembly
and Oireachtas respectively, whose
approval, through the arrangements in
place on either side, would be
required for decisions beyond the defi
ned authority of those attending.
7. As soon as practically possible afte
r elections to the Northern Ireland
Assembly, inaugural meetings will
take place of the Assembly, the
British/Irish Council and the North/S
outh Ministerial Council in their
transitional forms. All three institutions will meet regularly and frequently
on this basis during the period between
the elections to the Assembly, and
the transfer of powers to the Assembl
y, in order to establish their modus
operandi.
8. During the transitional period between
the elections to the Northern
Ireland Assembly and the transfer of
power to it, repres
entatives of the
Northern Ireland transitional Admini
stration and the Irish Government
operating in the North/South Minist
erial Council will undertake a work
programme, in consultation with the
British Government, covering at least
12 subject areas, with a view to id
entifying and agreeing by 31 October
1998 areas where co-operation and imple
mentation for mutual benefit will
take place. Such areas may include matte
rs in the list set out in the Annex.
9. As part of the work programme,
the Council will iden
tify and agree at
least 6 matters for co-operation and implementation in each of the
following categories:
(I) Matters where existing bodies will
be the appropriate mechanisms for
co-operation in each separate jurisdiction;
(ii) Matters where the co-opera
tion will take place through agreed
implementation bodies on a cross-
border or all-island level.
10. The two Governments will make
necessary legislative and other
enabling preparations to ensure, as
an absolute commitment, that these
bodies, which have been agreed as
a result of the work programme,
function at the time of the inception of the British-Irish Agreement and
the transfer of powers, with legi
slative authority for these bodies
transferred to the Assembly as
soon as possible thereafter. Other
arrangements for the agreed co-operation will also commence
contemporaneously with the transfer of powers to the Assembly.
11. The implementation bodies will have
a clear operational remit. They
will implement on an all-island and cro
ss-border basis policies agreed in


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... eement.pdf


Negotiating a trade deal will be a walk in the park compared to this believe me .
 
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OA260
Posts: 21746
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 10:26 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:

It's won't be Ireland that's at risk of anything


It actually would. It would be at risk of any EU enforced border being targeted.

To be honest the violence will happen in NI and around the border if there ever was a new campaign. They would blow up the border as they did during the troubles many times and the EU border would collapse. Thats why I said its impossible to enforce. 200 crossing points.

The worse bombing of the troubles was of course in Omagh NI.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/omagh_bomb

What happens if things really get nasty and they target anyone either side of the border who is trying to create a hard border. That becomes an EU problem not just a British one. The British could say they were happy to have a free border as currently operates so who would the anger go against then?
 
JJJ
Posts: 2414
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 11:00 am

OA260 wrote:
What happens if things really get nasty and they target anyone either side of the border who is trying to create a hard border. That becomes an EU problem not just a British one. The British could say they were happy to have a free border as currently operates so who would the anger go against then?


Sorry buddy but the British are the ones putting up a border, not the EU/Ireland. They are the ones who voted to limit immigration from EU countries, and given a mandate to their leadership to act.

I think it is extremely deluded to think that the British stance on putting hard limits to EU immigration for some reason doesn't apply to the Irish.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5250
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 11:05 am

OA260 wrote:
That becomes an EU problem not just a British one.


It becomes an EU problem, but we also know who has to pick up the tap: the UK, at least in so far as cost raise beyond normal border costs.

The British could say they were happy to have a free border as currently operates so who would the anger go against then?


Well, they can of course have a proper border between NI and the rest of the UK and keep the Inter-Irish Border free as it is with just a minor special status agreement. See, problem solved.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
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OA260
Posts: 21746
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 11:23 am

JJJ wrote:
OA260 wrote:
What happens if things really get nasty and they target anyone either side of the border who is trying to create a hard border. That becomes an EU problem not just a British one. The British could say they were happy to have a free border as currently operates so who would the anger go against then?


Sorry buddy but the British are the ones putting up a border, not the EU/Ireland. They are the ones who voted to limit immigration from EU countries, and given a mandate to their leadership to act.

I think it is extremely deluded to think that the British stance on putting hard limits to EU immigration for some reason doesn't apply to the Irish.


Come back to this thread when the deal is done. We will see what happens to the border. I stand by my predictions.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 11:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:

Well, they can of course have a proper border between NI and the rest of the UK and keep the Inter-Irish Border free as it is with just a minor special status agreement. See, problem solved.

best regards
Thomas


Ideal solution but would the Unionists go for it? Not really that simple sadly. Then of course the trade between ROI-UK which is huge and will not be easy to replace. That is why ROI is saying to the EU that they will need billions in EU aid if a deal is not done.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 14191
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 11:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, they can of course have a proper border between NI and the rest of the UK and keep the Inter-Irish Border free as it is with just a minor special status agreement. See, problem solved.


If only the real World were as simple as you seem to believe it is. :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Olddog
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 11:31 am

Problem is ROI is already a tax scam country that cost billions to the EU. Want we talk about Apple and others?

I have a better idea to solve that border problem: put back the borders between the EU and ROI. I bet they will suddenly find solutions with north ireland :)
 
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OA260
Posts: 21746
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 11:43 am

scbriml wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Well, they can of course have a proper border between NI and the rest of the UK and keep the Inter-Irish Border free as it is with just a minor special status agreement. See, problem solved.


If only the real World were as simple as you seem to believe it is. :wink2:


Exactly. Sitting somewhere in Schengen with no borders its hard to understand the complex issues and realities on the ground. I think while some say the British are living on a different planet to the EU negotiators equally the people giving simple fixes are void of reality.
 
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par13del
Posts: 6861
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 12:33 pm

Olddog wrote:
Problem is ROI is already a tax scam country that cost billions to the EU. Want we talk about Apple and others?

I have a better idea to solve that border problem: put back the borders between the EU and ROI. I bet they will suddenly find solutions with north ireland :)


Actually makes the most sense since there is no land border between the ROI and mainland Europe, would be easier to control.
Now how you go about treating one member of the EU different from the others as a result of the UK leaving is.........

Bottom line is that with the EU freedom of movement, if no hard border exist between the ROI and NI, ROI will simple become the new transit point for immigration into the UK. Maybe mainland UK could then follow the EU and place a hard border between the island of Ireland and the rest of the UK...
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 12:44 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Problem is ROI is already a tax scam country that cost billions to the EU. Want we talk about Apple and others?

I have a better idea to solve that border problem: put back the borders between the EU and ROI. I bet they will suddenly find solutions with north ireland :)


Actually makes the most sense since there is no land border between the ROI and mainland Europe, would be easier to control.
Now how you go about treating one member of the EU different from the others as a result of the UK leaving is.........

..


Except that in reality there are already borders which OP forgets. ROI are not Schengen and all passports when travelling ROI to rest of EU ( except CTA with some exceptions ) are checked and scanned. Even a passenger flying into DUB from the UK are checked.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 3:32 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Problem is ROI is already a tax scam country that cost billions to the EU. Want we talk about Apple and others?

I have a better idea to solve that border problem: put back the borders between the EU and ROI. I bet they will suddenly find solutions with north ireland :)


Actually makes the most sense since there is no land border between the ROI and mainland Europe, would be easier to control.
Now how you go about treating one member of the EU different from the others as a result of the UK leaving is.........

Bottom line is that with the EU freedom of movement, if no hard border exist between the ROI and NI, ROI will simple become the new transit point for immigration into the UK. Maybe mainland UK could then follow the EU and place a hard border between the island of Ireland and the rest of the UK...



I hope you understand it was a joke from my part no ? Because doing it that way is the UK wet dream: stop the people and let the other parts go thru is exactly what the UK wants and what is totally against EU rules.
 
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri May 12, 2017 4:04 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Yeah, the issues in NI stem more from political and national identities now than religious ones. Those issues still do exist but I imagine for Unionists it has far more to do with identifying themselves as British and not Irish.


The whole thing is a mix these days I know Unionists that vowed never to get Irish passports yet since Brexit they are all applying.



68% rise in UK applications for Irish passports

A surge in passport applications has continued with the number of those applying for Irish passports in the first three months of this year up 26% on the same period last year.
Figures from the Department of Foreign Affairs show that requests from Britain and Northern Ireland were up 68% in the first quarter.
The decision of the UK to leave the EU is thought to be a large factor in the increased demand for Irish passports.
Between January and March 2017, 51,000 applications were received from the UK, compared with 30,000 last year.
If the current surge continues, it is expected that applications will pass the one million mark in 2017.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0415/86792 ... lications/

Thats a hell of a lot of new citizens the EU now have to consider in the talks.

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