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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 12:23 am

LAH1 wrote:
I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective.


You mean we're not reading anti-EU rants every day in popular tabloids ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 4:59 am

The UK has seen worse hardship than the Brexit and survived. Nobody needs to go to the beaches in Spain, the Uk is beautiful enough and people can take their holidays at home, which would probably hurt the EU most. The people of a country accept a lot, if they see it as in their interest and forced upon them by an exterior threat. This is imho the mindset in the UK at the moment. I would not be surprised if first movements will ask for a boycott of Spanish holiday resorts in the next few months.
 
LTenEleven
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 5:47 am

seahawk wrote:
The UK has seen worse hardship than the Brexit and survived. Nobody needs to go to the beaches in Spain, the Uk is beautiful enough and people can take their holidays at home, which would probably hurt the EU most. The people of a country accept a lot, if they see it as in their interest and forced upon them by an exterior threat. This is imho the mindset in the UK at the moment. I would not be surprised if first movements will ask for a boycott of Spanish holiday resorts in the next few months.


I'm not convinced your average person will switch their annual holiday on one of the costas for a week in rainy Cornwall.

Besides, the U.K. does not have anywhere near the required hotel or other accommodation capacity to meet any kind of movement in that direction. Hotel occupancy rates are already very high with tough planning laws making any new builds on desirable greenfield sites very rare.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 6:11 am

Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 6:26 am

Olddog wrote:
Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?


Maybe because the people in the UK feel that it is in their interest, while the people in the EU do not. Brexit can not be explained by facts, it was a decision based on emotions and emotions are strong motivators. But it can also go a different way, once the general opinion changes and emotions change.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 6:31 am

seahawk wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?


Maybe because the people in the UK feel that it is in their interest,.


Yup, if you owe money, high inflation rate is good for you. As long as you have a fixed interest rate.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 7:51 am

As long as your salary follows the inflation, you mean. Which in very economic liberal UK, might not happen for many people.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LAH1
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 8:01 am

Aesma wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective.


You mean we're not reading anti-EU rants every day in popular tabloids ?


That's a popular tabloid perspective, not one I adhere to. Tabloids in all countries tend to bow to the lowest common denominator, they wouldn't sell any otherwise. I sometimes use them to wrap up my chips :).
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 8:12 am

Aesma wrote:
As long as your salary follows the inflation, you mean. Which in very economic liberal UK, might not happen for many people.


Image
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 9:22 am

Image
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 12:42 pm

LTenEleven wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The UK has seen worse hardship than the Brexit and survived. Nobody needs to go to the beaches in Spain, the Uk is beautiful enough and people can take their holidays at home, which would probably hurt the EU most. The people of a country accept a lot, if they see it as in their interest and forced upon them by an exterior threat. This is imho the mindset in the UK at the moment. I would not be surprised if first movements will ask for a boycott of Spanish holiday resorts in the next few months.


I'm not convinced your average person will switch their annual holiday on one of the costas for a week in rainy Cornwall.

Besides, the U.K. does not have anywhere near the required hotel or other accommodation capacity to meet any kind of movement in that direction. Hotel occupancy rates are already very high with tough planning laws making any new builds on desirable greenfield sites very rare.


I suspect that with the UK leaving the EU, a number of such rules and regulations will have to change.....life in the UK will not continue to follow the EU model,
whether that is good or bad is in the eyes of the beholders, right now, they want to leave the EU, so.....
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 12:44 pm

Olddog wrote:
Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?

My take would be that the EU is not choosing to kick the UK out, so any endurance will have to be borne by the ones leaving.....I think as mentioned by a few posters in this thread, the EU has endured the UK's membership for a few decades and are glad to see them gone...
 
LTenEleven
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 6:41 pm

seahawk wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?


Maybe because the people in the UK feel that it is in their interest, while the people in the EU do not. Brexit can not be explained by facts, it was a decision based on emotions and emotions are strong motivators.


People's emotions are unfortunately easy to manipulate with lies and misrepresentations. Unfortunately the facts and economic reality will always come back and bite you in the ass.
 
LTenEleven
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 6:43 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Anyway Seahawk thinking is flawed. Why do you think that UK citizen can endure what it takes and not the EU citizens ?

My take would be that the EU is not choosing to kick the UK out, so any endurance will have to be borne by the ones leaving.....I think as mentioned by a few posters in this thread, the EU has endured the UK's membership for a few decades and are glad to see them gone...


I think few on the EU are really happy to see the UK go, but we have to live with the decision and will make what we can of what feels like a bad situation. The UK may be soon gone, but we can carry on in areas we might previously have seen British resistance.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 7:32 pm

Such as common border control, security and defence.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Tue May 09, 2017 11:44 pm

LTenEleven wrote:
I think few on the EU are really happy to see the UK go, but we have to live with the decision and will make what we can of what feels like a bad situation.

Happy or not happy? I think the word "indifferent" describes the situation on the continent.

Brexit will change several things in the UK, but what will change on the continent among EU27? The latter hasn't even been an issue. I haven't met any continental people who expect anything to change on the continent because of Brexit.

Those of us, who have travelled a lot in Britain, and love the country for what it is, we just feel sad because stupidity has spilt the country almost exactly 50/50 into two parts. But we can't do anything about it. Only the Britons themselves can help them out of the mess.

But most continental Europeans have already forgotten about Brexit since it is seldom mentioned in the press. And when it is mentioned, then it is normally a small and insignificant notice, or reporting a funny joke like a new brexitter insult on EU27.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 4:38 am

I don't want this to vanish from the front page - its like the FLAirport snowglobe thread from before most of you were members - google it - its worth it trust me. Or we'll be swamped by Eurovision Song Contest posts. That HAS to have its own thread. I'll weild my grandfather rights and EU veto you all if you mention it on this thread again. Aha.


So I had dinner with some businessy type people in New York tonight and we discussed the brexit thing.
A couple of POV's from American finance types came up.

First was about the EU - South Korea agreement. Many parallels were drawn about the UK and South Korea (SK). Now of course there are MANY differences between the nations. But one was the car industry. SK flogs a lot of cars overseas, and to the EU. They have a big services industry, and they have a slight "island nation" ideal about themselves and rather anti immigration.
Yet they managed to get a free trade agreement with the EU in principle agreed, in less than 2 years. The stumbling blocks - the UK - aha - no shock there, but the reason was brexit uncertainty - and Italy.
So lets leave the UK out of it - what is Italy complaining about? And maybe France? Protection of their automotive industries. And is there a process of "whipping" - like in the UK parliament, where you use your whips to basically force members to accept the "party" (EU) line. So who is whipping the smaller EU nations into toeing the EU line - otherwise nothing will ever be agreed because a member state will always derail any agreement wanting a better deal for their home (Italy/France - car) industry.

So the South Korea - EU agreement potentially could have gone through in less than 2 years. And I think that trade between the nations has been good in recent years. Yet a brief google sees reports of SK firms "dumping" cars in the EU to undercut the EU manufacturers. So one wonders how perfect any of these deals really are?! One could say - lets all have a big bun fight under WTO and let the best man win. Just a thought - not mine. Just an idea. (So don't shoot me please - I'm a nice person!)

Link for pendants - (Wikipedia - meh) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
Sorry I can't get the whole link to post - this website tech sucks. That whole link I posted will need to be referenced.

Now tell me EU friends about agreements that led to this almost unanimous agreement - was there free movement agreements, agreement by SK to abide by all EU laws and vice versa?
This is important to understand how the EU conducts these free trade agreements and what conditions each side puts on these deals....
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 5:34 am

The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their broders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 5:51 am

seahawk wrote:
The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their borders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.


lol, what are you trying to accomplish with this? You pleat for a far better deal than any other, including EU members, so yeah quite modest :D And let me raise a rather small point, directives from the EU implemented in the UK? Or free flow of money? If UK banks are allowed to operate within the EU. the EU needs to control the banks as well, do you think the UK will agree with that? Or the EU will let them just loose, and I know the banks surely must have learned their lessons in 2008 and they promised to do it never again, so let's just trust them on their blue eyes, whatever could go wrong right?
Last edited by Dutchy on Thu May 11, 2017 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 5:56 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
I don't want this to vanish from the front page - its like the FLAirport snowglobe thread from before most of you were members - google it - its worth it trust me. Or we'll be swamped by Eurovision Song Contest posts. That HAS to have its own thread. I'll weild my grandfather rights and EU veto you all if you mention it on this thread again. Aha.


So I had dinner with some businessy type people in New York tonight and we discussed the brexit thing.
A couple of POV's from American finance types came up.

First was about the EU - South Korea agreement. Many parallels were drawn about the UK and South Korea (SK). Now of course there are MANY differences between the nations. But one was the car industry. SK flogs a lot of cars overseas, and to the EU. They have a big services industry, and they have a slight "island nation" ideal about themselves and rather anti immigration.
Yet they managed to get a free trade agreement with the EU in principle agreed, in less than 2 years. The stumbling blocks - the UK - aha - no shock there, but the reason was brexit uncertainty - and Italy.
So lets leave the UK out of it - what is Italy complaining about? And maybe France? Protection of their automotive industries. And is there a process of "whipping" - like in the UK parliament, where you use your whips to basically force members to accept the "party" (EU) line. So who is whipping the smaller EU nations into toeing the EU line - otherwise nothing will ever be agreed because a member state will always derail any agreement wanting a better deal for their home (Italy/France - car) industry.

So the South Korea - EU agreement potentially could have gone through in less than 2 years. And I think that trade between the nations has been good in recent years. Yet a brief google sees reports of SK firms "dumping" cars in the EU to undercut the EU manufacturers. So one wonders how perfect any of these deals really are?! One could say - lets all have a big bun fight under WTO and let the best man win. Just a thought - not mine. Just an idea. (So don't shoot me please - I'm a nice person!)

Link for pendants - (Wikipedia - meh) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
Sorry I can't get the whole link to post - this website tech sucks. That whole link I posted will need to be referenced.

Now tell me EU friends about agreements that led to this almost unanimous agreement - was there free movement agreements, agreement by SK to abide by all EU laws and vice versa?
This is important to understand how the EU conducts these free trade agreements and what conditions each side puts on these deals....


Trade deals are one of those things the EU can do things on its own - I think. But that is just trade deals, of it incorporates something else, then it needs to be agreed by unanimity, like the EU - Ukraine deal or TTIP. Don't know the specifics about the EU - SK agreement, but the EU must gain something as well and if SK is really dumbing cars on the EU marked, I think they have posibilities to act on it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 5:57 am

seahawk wrote:
The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their broders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.


The punishment aspect of EU leader rhetoric is quite frustrating.
The EU members on here suggesting that there is no punishment - let me quote directy from the current lame duck French president - "There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price, otherwise we will be in negotiations that will not end well and, inevitably, will have economic and human consequences,” the French president said."

So I ask again - as I did before - to EU supporting members - what is the reason behind this threat?
If the EU was a perfect organisation, you would have no reason to make these threats. I'm a US citizen asking questions that I'm genuinely curious about. Why? Are you that shit scared of other EU members saying -"fuck this for a game of soldiers - we're off" that you have to scare them into staying? I thought the EU was the panacea to every ill that was going on earth..... ?! The way some of you talk on this forum, it sounds like it should be....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:10 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their broders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.


The punishment aspect of EU leader rhetoric is quite frustrating.
The EU members on here suggesting that there is no punishment - let me quote directy from the current lame duck French president - "There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price, otherwise we will be in negotiations that will not end well and, inevitably, will have economic and human consequences,” the French president said."

So I ask again - as I did before - to EU supporting members - what is the reason behind this threat?
If the EU was a perfect organisation, you would have no reason to make these threats. I'm a US citizen asking questions that I'm genuinely curious about. Why? Are you that shit scared of other EU members saying -"fuck this for a game of soldiers - we're off" that you have to scare them into staying? I thought the EU was the panacea to every ill that was going on earth..... ?! The way some of you talk on this forum, it sounds like it should be....


Rhetoric. Is it perfect, no, but does it help its members yes. As I said I don't subscribe to it. The EU needs to reform and Marcon has the agenda for it. The UK doesn't get punished, but no favors either. There must be consequences to leaving the EU and no cherry picking. Current opinion polls show that in no other member more than 50% of its citizens want to leave.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BCal Dc10
Posts: 737
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
I don't want this to vanish from the front page - its like the FLAirport snowglobe thread from before most of you were members - google it - its worth it trust me. Or we'll be swamped by Eurovision Song Contest posts. That HAS to have its own thread. I'll weild my grandfather rights and EU veto you all if you mention it on this thread again. Aha.


So I had dinner with some businessy type people in New York tonight and we discussed the brexit thing.
A couple of POV's from American finance types came up.

First was about the EU - South Korea agreement. Many parallels were drawn about the UK and South Korea (SK). Now of course there are MANY differences between the nations. But one was the car industry. SK flogs a lot of cars overseas, and to the EU. They have a big services industry, and they have a slight "island nation" ideal about themselves and rather anti immigration.
Yet they managed to get a free trade agreement with the EU in principle agreed, in less than 2 years. The stumbling blocks - the UK - aha - no shock there, but the reason was brexit uncertainty - and Italy.
So lets leave the UK out of it - what is Italy complaining about? And maybe France? Protection of their automotive industries. And is there a process of "whipping" - like in the UK parliament, where you use your whips to basically force members to accept the "party" (EU) line. So who is whipping the smaller EU nations into toeing the EU line - otherwise nothing will ever be agreed because a member state will always derail any agreement wanting a better deal for their home (Italy/France - car) industry.

So the South Korea - EU agreement potentially could have gone through in less than 2 years. And I think that trade between the nations has been good in recent years. Yet a brief google sees reports of SK firms "dumping" cars in the EU to undercut the EU manufacturers. So one wonders how perfect any of these deals really are?! One could say - lets all have a big bun fight under WTO and let the best man win. Just a thought - not mine. Just an idea. (So don't shoot me please - I'm a nice person!)

Link for pendants - (Wikipedia - meh) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
Sorry I can't get the whole link to post - this website tech sucks. That whole link I posted will need to be referenced.

Now tell me EU friends about agreements that led to this almost unanimous agreement - was there free movement agreements, agreement by SK to abide by all EU laws and vice versa?
This is important to understand how the EU conducts these free trade agreements and what conditions each side puts on these deals....


Trade deals are one of those things the EU can do things on its own - I think. But that is just trade deals, of it incorporates something else, then it needs to be agreed by unanimity, like the EU - Ukraine deal or TTIP. Don't know the specifics about the EU - SK agreement, but the EU must gain something as well and if SK is really dumbing cars on the EU marked, I think they have posibilities to act on it.


This is the first time I'm calling you out Dutchy - This is quite major in EU trade negotiations. Blowing this off as some kind of - meh trade deals happen - on this forum its not going to wash. Now I've respected you for being direct and forthright on many issues, and we have had constructive discussion, so lets continue it, and how something like an SK - EU deal was brokered, in 20 odd months, and how if fell apart at the end. And as soon as I bring up a FTA between EU and SK, it suddenly gets flung aside.

So lets discuss it. And if you don't know, educate, then lets discuss.

So I have given you a free trade deal - between the EU and South Korea. As an example. So I ask you again, to debate the issues in the FTA between the EU and SK - because this could become an example of how a FTA is done between the EU and UK.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:15 am

@BCal Dc10 will have to look into the details, have to work right now ;-). Perhaps tonight I have some time for this or it will be on Saturday. Please be patient
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:16 am

it seems to be a difficult concept to grasp for our US friends as it was explained already thousands of time. The EU took decades of hard work to overcome some of the main countries differences (and sometime hate). That building is made with 4 pillars as basis. The UK tells wants to act like a burglar in a candy shop. If they want that access they will have to follow our rules. That's all.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
BCal Dc10 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The EU just wants to punish the UK. A trade deal is easy - keep everything like it is, just free the UK of having to pay for the EU and allow them to control their broders again and remove immigrants as they see necessary. The UK´s demands have always been quite modest.


The punishment aspect of EU leader rhetoric is quite frustrating.
The EU members on here suggesting that there is no punishment - let me quote directy from the current lame duck French president - "There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price, otherwise we will be in negotiations that will not end well and, inevitably, will have economic and human consequences,” the French president said."

So I ask again - as I did before - to EU supporting members - what is the reason behind this threat?
If the EU was a perfect organisation, you would have no reason to make these threats. I'm a US citizen asking questions that I'm genuinely curious about. Why? Are you that shit scared of other EU members saying -"fuck this for a game of soldiers - we're off" that you have to scare them into staying? I thought the EU was the panacea to every ill that was going on earth..... ?! The way some of you talk on this forum, it sounds like it should be....


Rhetoric. Is it perfect, no, but does it help its members yes. As I said I don't subscribe to it. The EU needs to reform and Marcon has the agenda for it. The UK doesn't get punished, but no favors either. There must be consequences to leaving the EU and no cherry picking. Current opinion polls show that in no other member more than 50% of its citizens want to leave.


yes i agree with the rhetoric - there is so much out there the poor voter man on the street must literally have no where to turn? His favorite newspaper - full of rhetoric. OMG - have you ever read a Daily Mail or even worse a Daily Express headline in the UK? I don't know where these people get their headline writers from.

So yes - I hear you. So who is driving the populist press on the continent? Does any rag have any pull over punters like the UK's love/hate The Sun newspaper? (Up yours Delores) kind of headlines? Does anyone on the continent really care?
And so it brings me back to ask - why the vehemence on this forum - especially from members who say " i don't care, i don't care what they do, no one here cares what the UK does" - so why keep posting here and creating unnecessary noise?

As always - I'm enjoying our discussions Dutchy. Thank you.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
@BCal Dc10 will have to look into the details, have to work right now ;-). Perhaps tonight I have some time for this or it will be on Saturday. Please be patient


You get award for most sensible post here ever. If everyone said - I'll look into what you said, and get back, we'd all be a better informed forum.. so thanks for that. And I'll anticipate your sharp rebuttal later. Aha. But rather a sharp one than a stupid one.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:26 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
@BCal Dc10 will have to look into the details, have to work right now ;-). Perhaps tonight I have some time for this or it will be on Saturday. Please be patient


You get award for most sensible post here ever. If everyone said - I'll look into what you said, and get back, we'd all be a better informed forum.. so thanks for that. And I'll anticipate your sharp rebuttal later. Aha. But rather a sharp one than a stupid one.


Can't promise you that :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:38 am

I can answer the question. The trade deal with South Korea is not as far reaching as full access to the open market. In generally it reduces import taxes between both parties, but it does not open that market to the other country. Air France could not start flying within South Korea, nor could Asiana fly in Europe. The whole deal has rules on origin and value added within the EU /SK for products to fall under the deal. Full access to the open market means much more.

But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:44 am

seahawk wrote:
But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.


LOL, you win the weekly troll contest :white:
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 6:49 am

Olddog wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.


LOL, you win the weekly troll contest :white:


I think a EU that keeps its members by force is not going to succeed. Surely in this deal the UK would still need to accept that the EU would control the rules for the common market and that they need to follow the regulations, but it must not be connected with the movement of people or immigration.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 7:01 am

Olddog wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.


LOL, you win the weekly troll contest :white:


Could you explain why his explanation is trolling? I've been on this board MANY years. the opinion put forward is a valid opinion. Explain the trolling.

It might not be an opinion you agree with, but dismissing every post you don't like as trolling starts to undermine your own argument.
I hate having to police this site but debate the idea put forward and not the person. It makes it more fun for us all to participate in the discussion.
 
BCal Dc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 7:08 am

seahawk wrote:
I can answer the question. The trade deal with South Korea is not as far reaching as full access to the open market. In generally it reduces import taxes between both parties, but it does not open that market to the other country. Air France could not start flying within South Korea, nor could Asiana fly in Europe. The whole deal has rules on origin and value added within the EU /SK for products to fall under the deal. Full access to the open market means much more.

But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.


The car market is bounced about continuously in this forum. It could be something big on the negotiating table in months to come. Forget aviation (on here - aha) - what about the EU - SK car market. I assume there was some agreement in coming close to a FTA with S Korea , and why did Italy (and possibly France) veto it?
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 7:34 am

Olddog wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But without a doubt if the Eu wants to save the European idea, they need to grant it to the UK, otherwise the EU is dividing Europe.


LOL, you win the weekly troll contest :white:


I do not see anything at all that would suggest trolling. You are a newbie here so may not be aware that certain members have been contributing for many years as part of our community and are respected even if you do not agree with them on this subject ! Stick to the topic in hand rather then accuse members of trolling when they are not. They are just airing their personal views. Just because YOU do not happen to agree with them does not mean they are wrong. Respect your fellow forum members like the majority of us have been doing. You will find it makes the thread a lot more enjoyable for everyone.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 7:43 am

BCal Dc10 wrote:
This is the first time I'm calling you out Dutchy - This is quite major in EU trade negotiations. Blowing this off as some kind of - meh trade deals happen - on this forum its not going to wash. Now I've respected you for being direct and forthright on many issues, and we have had constructive discussion, so lets continue it, and how something like an SK - EU deal was brokered, in 20 odd months, and how if fell apart at the end. And as soon as I bring up a FTA between EU and SK, it suddenly gets flung aside.

So lets discuss it. And if you don't know, educate, then lets discuss.

So I have given you a free trade deal - between the EU and South Korea. As an example. So I ask you again, to debate the issues in the FTA between the EU and SK - because this could become an example of how a FTA is done between the EU and UK.


You don't need to go to SK. The EU initial position is very much like the EU-Canada agreement.

http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-sketc ... ices-hard/

If the UK wants to trade goods, it can sign tomorrow. If they want passporting rights, services, etc. the UK needs to pay in.

But that is a long, winding road, because unlike Canada or South Korea there are a lot of fiddly bits that can turn into loopholes for the whole thing. There are two land borders (one of them with a crown dependency with a very sui generis tax system) there is huge labour mobility and there is substantial trade in services, several orders of magnitude higher than Canada or SK-EU.

And with the clock ticking against the UK the most sensible position would be to accept a Canada-style FT or swallow a few electoral promises and go Norway with a few token extra labour mobility clauses so as not to lose face with the hard Brexiteers.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 7:52 am

Good that he is coming to the border to see first hand the issues faced. I think the EU are taking it more seriously in recent weeks as Ireland have said they may need EU aid to soften the blow in any so called hard Brexit.


EU Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier on Ireland visit

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator will address parliamentarians in Ireland later today.

Michel Barnier is being given a privilege normally only afforded to visiting heads of state and prime ministers, and he joins luminaries like Nelson Mandela and Bill Clinton.

During his two-day visit to the Republic the former French foreign minister will also travel to the border region and see first-hand where the UK split from the European Union is likely to be most keenly felt.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news ... 02799.html
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 7:54 am

seahawk wrote:
I think a EU that keeps its members by force is not going to succeed.


So, i guess when your gym tells you that you do have to remain a member and pay your membership fees in order to reap the benefits of that membership, you ask for the manager and complain that the front desk is forcing you into staying a member?

best rgards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 7:59 am

OA260 wrote:
I do not see anything at all that would suggest trolling..


There is no need to suggest, Seahawk is on record in one of the Brexit threads that he is playing the devils advocate on purpose.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 8:41 am

BcalDc10 :
"Could you explain why his explanation is trolling? I've been on this board MANY years. the opinion put forward is a valid opinion. Explain the trolling. "
It is about, as usual among the leavers, putting the blame, the idiocy onto others : they'vre done nothging, they've always been loyal and pearls of wisdom come outr of thgeir mouths every time they speak !
The truth is :
1/- Brexit is a British decision and they didn't need anybody to help them or to advise them ( as of course, wisdom is a british trait )

2/- "if we don't get what we want, it's because these fascists EU unelected nazi dictators want to punish us so that they can beat all the European countries into line...."
That has been since February 2016 the main brexiteers' argument.The EU keeps its members by force, which I personnally find a bit insulting to 27 countries. that they can be cowed by anybody.
The rules haven't changed : either you respect and apply the EU four principles and we can have some smooth negotiations, or you don't and in this case, Brexit will be hard. It is your choice....
... and do not compare yourself to South Korea, India, China or even Canada as the situations are certainly not similar : in particular, considering your industry, it is very difficult to ascertain the origin of your goods : parts from Japan, SK, China...India in your cars... how are we going to tariff your finished product ?
The passporting, which you kept because the ECJ ( wow ! there are some of its rulings that you approve of, really :sarcastic: ) decided that as part of the EU, you could very well deal with financial aspects - all of them - within the borders of the Union.

3/- If South Korea can sign an FTA with them, why not us ?
The big big big problem is that a lot of the UK industry already belongs to quite a few EU states' industrial assets and a lot of 'foreign' concerns. How British is a Honda or a Tata car ? Will a German-brand car made in the UK sell with lower tariffs than from the EU into another big market ? ( an answer that can only be given when a post-brexit UK will sign with other countries, and I for one do not believe it's going to be just hunky dory all the way ).
Yes, there were talks of "dumping" of SK cars into the EU, mainly from a few French ministers very keen to be seen as defenders of a national cause.
The truth is that, after the agreement was signed, most of the EU countries achieved a positive balance of trade with SK and are way way way ahead of the doubling of the trade before 2030.( could be even done in 2020).
The UK, with it's very service-related trade is a totally different trade partner.
Last edited by Pihero on Thu May 11, 2017 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 8:44 am

The negotiations for the EU-South Korea FTA started in 2007 and it is only provisionally in place, so I'm not sure it's such a great example.

Also, it was mostly done under the radar.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 8:48 am

tommy1808 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
I do not see anything at all that would suggest trolling..


There is no need to suggest, Seahawk is on record in one of the Brexit threads that he is playing the devils advocate on purpose.

best regards
Thomas


It is not Devil´s advocate, as a pure trade deal is basically easy. Depending on how much control of the regulations the Uk wants to hand over to the EU, the more access to the market they can have. The spectrum reaches from pure third country status to a Norwegian style solution. It would take some hostility out of the negotiations if they would simply state, that if the UK does not want to pay a Cent to the EU and still want full access to the market, they are free to transform EU regulations into national law. Only if they want to have a limited say on the content of those regulations, they can either choose a role like Norway or they can choose to have full control over the regulations, but then the access to the market will be third country like.

Sometimes it is easier to look at concrete examples. For example, say the UK wants unlimited access for food products to the EU market. In that case they will need to follow EU regulations for the use of genetically modified products, which means that they could not sign a similar deal with the US. If they want to be free to do a deal with the US, they can not be given full access to the EU market. In that case the best solution is a South Korean like trade deal, in which it is clearly defined that only products made in the UK and free from genetically modified ingredients can be sold in the EU market. Companies would need to have their products tested for a confirmation.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 8:55 am

OA260 wrote:
Good that he is coming to the border to see first hand the issues faced. I think the EU are taking it more seriously in recent weeks as Ireland have said they may need EU aid to soften the blow in any so called hard Brexit.


Yesterday he was in Spain, apparently he's touring every country and recruiting local negotiators and advisers for specific issues to each country.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:13 am

OA260 wrote:
I do not see anything at all that would suggest trolling. You are a newbie here so may not be aware that certain members have been contributing for many years as part of our community and are respected even if you do not agree with them on this subject ! Stick to the topic in hand rather then accuse members of trolling when they are not. They are just airing their personal views. Just because YOU do not happen to agree with them does not mean they are wrong. Respect your fellow forum members like the majority of us have been doing. You will find it makes the thread a lot more enjoyable for everyone.


Don't patronize me!

It s the UK that leave the EU not the other way. If someone is trying to break the EU it is not the EU....

What about the fact that Ireland should work with the UK that border problem created by the UK Vote to leave?

Don't you think it is strange to ask to the EU to solve the problem created by the UK with that border ?
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:17 am

Aesma wrote:
The negotiations for the EU-South Korea FTA started in 2007 and it is only provisionally in place, so I'm not sure it's such a great example.
Also, it was mostly done under the radar.

Not true : The agreement has been signed . It's only the 'phased' implementation that is currently been monitored : the tariffs will diminish every year until zero is reached on all categories.
As for been "under radar", it's up to citizens to keep informed. I have, as much as I watched the CETA and send my- MEP some items of disagreement.
Contrail designer
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
lol, what are you trying to accomplish with this? You pleat for a far better deal than any other, including EU members, so yeah quite modest

Arrgggghhh - so hard to resist replying to some of the nonsense posted here.

Only one third of EU members are currently net contributors to the EU, effectively paying for access. Two thirds of members, as net beneficiaries, effectively get paid to be part of the single market. So the UK being allowed to continue to trade with the EU as at present, without paying anything at all, would still be a worse deal than that currently enjoyed by two-thirds of EU members.

Given that the EU-UK balance of trade is in the EU's favour, surely it should be the EU paying the UK for access to the UK market, not the other way around?
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:31 am

Old Dog :
"It s the UK that leave the EU not the other way. If someone is trying to break the EU it is not the EU...."

That's very easily forgotten - or worse, and mostly in a very dishonest way by the brexiteers, used as a main argument.
Poor victimized things !
But who wanted - still does - to divide the EU states ?... the EU ?

You wanted a Brexit ? Deal with it !
Brexit is Brexit ?.. Make it happen and as quick as possible, please !
You wanted a blue / white / red Brexit ? ... could well have a French / Luxembourg / Netherland / Slovakia / Slovenia / Czech ones !.. Which one do you prefer ?

Who has heaped abuse / insults / dishonest statements on the other side ? the EU or the UK ?
(hint : the answer is about the press ownership and the number of tabloids )

(I am on record for being a staunch supporter of Brexit, the best thing to happen to Europe . They don't even know that the results of the Austrian, Dutch and French elections have quite probably been affected by Brexit )
Contrail designer
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:35 am

[quote="Olddog"][/quote]

Do unto others as you would be done by then. :)
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:41 am

speedbored :
"Arrgggghhh - so hard to resist replying to some of the nonsense posted here."

The nonsense is from your side :
"Only one third of EU members are currently net contributors to the EU, effectively paying for access. Two thirds of members, as net beneficiaries, effectively get paid to be part of the single market."
That's just a membership fee.
What you gain from the club is a lot more : access to the other playgrounds, share of the ticket sales... etc...
Otherwise, if you really think that Britain's worth is 10 billion pounds, I could probably buy the whole country with the people of my home town.

You are very cheap...
Are you ?
Contrail designer
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:42 am

When someone post that Eu should basically breaks all its rules to no disturb UK wishes, calling that trolling is a very nice and polite way to express my thinkings.
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu May 11, 2017 9:44 am

JJJ wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Good that he is coming to the border to see first hand the issues faced. I think the EU are taking it more seriously in recent weeks as Ireland have said they may need EU aid to soften the blow in any so called hard Brexit.


Yesterday he was in Spain, apparently he's touring every country and recruiting local negotiators and advisers for specific issues to each country.


Irish ministers have according to reports asked the EU to tone down the rhetoric as it is causing problems already. According to a Sky News report today where they reported from the border local MPs ( Irish ) have said its opened up the border dispute on a never resolved territorial waters issue. This of course will be the EU border too. Then of course the fact that you sometimes cross the border ( land ) 4-5 times in a one hour car journey all adds to the issues. You will never be able to close all of those even back in the days of conflict they never managed it and that was a heavily armed border.

It is certainly interesting to see how they will get around all of that.

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