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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:07 pm

JJJ wrote:
Because it's like that by design

Maybe. But designs can be changed. Unfortunately, I think that far too many EU bureaucrats and politicians care more about the design than the impact that single-mindedly sticking to it will have on the people they are supposed to serve.

JJJ wrote:
It's a much more far reaching project

We know. That's why we dislike it so much.

JJJ wrote:
That's why every time the UK asked for exemptions, rebates and all kinds of opt-outs Brussels shook their collective heads in a "they just don't get it don't they?" gesture.

Oh we get it alright. We just don't want it. All of those exemptions, etc. were to allow us to keep just a little bit closer to what it was that we actually signed up for when we joined - long before the "design" or "far reaching political project" that you talk about even existed.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:19 pm

Apparently this was written by a Macron adviser. Any thoughts folks?

http://bruegel.org/2016/08/europe-after ... rtnership/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:22 pm

speedbored wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Because it's like that by design

Maybe. But designs can be changed. Unfortunately, I think that far too many EU bureaucrats and politicians care more about the design than the impact that single-mindedly sticking to it will have on the people they are supposed to serve.


This kind of rhetoric will bring us nothing.

speedbored wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It's a much more far reaching project

We know. That's why we dislike it so much.


Who is "we", the UK seems to be quite split on the subject.

speedbored wrote:
JJJ wrote:
That's why every time the UK asked for exemptions, rebates and all kinds of opt-outs Brussels shook their collective heads in a "they just don't get it don't they?" gesture.

Oh we get it alright. We just don't want it. All of those exemptions, etc. were to allow us to keep just a little bit closer to what it was that we actually signed up for when we joined - long before the "design" or "far reaching political project" that you talk about even existed.


Really?:

The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was an organisation of 6 European countries set up after World War II to regulate their industrial production under a centralised authority. It was formally established in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris, signed by Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. The ECSC was the first international organisation to be based on the principles of supranationalism,[2] and started the process of formal integration which ultimately led to the European Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... _Community

The EU is a direct descendent of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), it was the goal in order never to have such a devastating war again. When the UK joined on 1 January 1973 it was already 22years old. So what do you mean?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:31 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Apparently this was written by a Macron adviser. Any thoughts folks?

http://bruegel.org/2016/08/europe-after ... rtnership/


Interesting read for sure.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:32 pm

Olddog wrote:
None found that. It's just a clickbait article for the campaign. When EU has a real number, they will publish it.


Exactly. Besides, it's a negotiation. You don't start with your best offer.

I don't think the bill being talked about is mostly about the UK contribution. Not even two years of UK net contribution (current EU budget is until 2020 and Brexit happens during 2019) is what, 15 or 16 billions euros ? That's not what this is about.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:39 pm

OA260 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Apparently this was written by a Macron adviser. Any thoughts folks?

http://bruegel.org/2016/08/europe-after ... rtnership/


Interesting read for sure.


interesting read indeed, kind of a two speed Europe described here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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OA260
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:44 pm

FT breakdown: the €100bn Brexit bill

New demands include UK funding EU operations in 2019 and 2020
The law justifying Britain’s Brexit bill is hotly contested, the variables in the calculation are legion and the negotiation has yet to start.

But there can be no doubt that the EU’s €100bn demand to settle Britain’s exit dues is one of the biggest political dangers in the Brexit process.

The Financial Times estimated the bill using the EU’s negotiating guidelines, the more detailed draft mandate for the bloc’s negotiator, Michel Barnier, and conversations with diplomats and officials involved in Brexit talks.

At the behest of member states, the opening position is more stringent than the methodology underpinning the €60bn bill referred to by Jean-Claude Juncker, European Commission president. The tougher stance amounts to a gross settlement of €91bn-€113bn, which over many years would net at about €55bn-€75bn.
Barnier’s initial approach

Mr Barnier’s core argument is that Britain made legally binding financial commitments that it must honour on exit. He wants the bill covered in a single “global settlement”, which the UK can then discuss paying in instalments.

The commission initially looked at three main types of liability, which primarily come due between 2019 and 2025.

The biggest were:

● EU budget items (such as road or rail projects) that had yet to be paid (a category, formally known as reste à liquider, which amounts to about €241bn).

● Other legal commitments to projects that would be initiated after Brexit takes place in 2019, such as investment projects in less developed regions, in rural areas and for fisheries (a total of up to €172bn).

● Long-term obligations and liabilities such as pension promises and contingent loan guarantees.

Mr Barnier then planned to offset this by reimbursing the UK with a share of EU assets (buildings such as the Berlaymont, the commission headquarters), its normal budget rebate and EU spending that would have taken place in the UK.

Contingent liabilities — financial hits that may occur in the future — would be paid if and when any losses were suffered. Britain’s share would be based on its historic contribution, arguably between 12 and 15 per cent, depending on how the rebate is handled.

https://www.ft.com/content/29fc1abc-2fe ... ef563ecf9a
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 8:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Really?:

Yes, really.

Dutchy wrote:
The EU is a direct descendent of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), it was the goal in order never to have such a devastating war again. When the UK joined on 1 January 1973 it was already 22years old. So what do you mean?

No, it is not a direct descendent of the ECSC - it is a direct descendent of the EEC, into which the ECSC was merged.

What the UK joined was the European Economic Community.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 9:01 pm

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Really?:

Yes, really.

Dutchy wrote:
The EU is a direct descendent of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), it was the goal in order never to have such a devastating war again. When the UK joined on 1 January 1973 it was already 22years old. So what do you mean?

No, it is not a direct descendent of the ECSC - it is a direct descendent of the EEC, into which the ECSC was merged.

What the UK joined was the European Economic Community.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... _Community
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Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 9:35 pm

speedbored wrote:

Pihero wrote:
The UK has contributed Zilch to helping Greece

I never claimed that we did but you are wrong, we have, and continue to, contribute to Greece as it is a net beneficiary of the EU. You might also want to check who contributes to the IMF funds that Greece has also been helped out with.

Yes, that was your claim. Remember : "
"What we are not happy to pay is the cost of the political union, nor that of propping up the failing economies of other EU members "
Otherwise what would you be unhappy to pay for ?

What money has been contributed to Greece was about regional plans and EU investments on Greek projects. None of these sums was about "helping" it out of the crisis. That was done in the Eurozon e - of which you were not part of or from the IMF, through a set of loans.
So, in fact, the UK, contrarily to what yopu would like us to understand has not shown any philanthropic actions in the Greek crisis.
Yes, I forgot, your fellow financiers invented the word "PIGS" for Portugal,Italy, Greece and Spain.
I have to say it was a hell of a contribution.
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UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun May 07, 2017 10:59 pm

The term "PIGS" actually dates back to the early 1990s, long before the 2007/2008 crash.

Nowadays they used "PIIGS" as it includes both Italy and Ireland.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 5:08 am

The whole discussion is becoming a joke. There is one simple solution that would negate all negative effects, let the UK stay in the common market. Non sense is punishing the UK.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 5:17 am

speedbored wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
It was simply a lie, and the "smart" electorate bought it.

Actually, no it was not. If you look at what the leave campaign actually said about the £350m figure, it was correct.


I am still waiting for your explaination how 350 Million Pound per week towards the NHS have been factually correct...

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 5:55 am

Pihero wrote:
Yes, that was your claim. Remember : "
"What we are not happy to pay is the cost of the political union, nor that of propping up the failing economies of other EU members "
Otherwise what would you be unhappy to pay for ?

No, it was NOT my claim. I never mentioned Greece. But, in any case, I was talking about the future, not the past.

[quote="Pihero"]What money has been contributed to Greece was about regional plans and EU investments on Greek projects. None of these sums was about "helping" it out of the crisis./quote]
Who even mentioned "the crisis". Your claim was that we have never contributed to Greece. We have. Billions.

But even if you do now want to change the argument to (a) the past and (b) the crisis, you would still be wrong. As I said, take a look at where the IMF money comes from.
 
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 5:56 am

Dutchy wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

Which agrees with what I am saying.
 
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 6:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
I am still waiting for your explaination how 350 Million Pound per week towards the NHS have been factually correct.

Then you are in for a long wait. I have already told you that that was never the claim made by the leave campaign - it was a remain campaign/media misrepresentation. It is not possible to explain something that has never existed.
 
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 6:15 am

speedbored wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I am still waiting for your explaination how 350 Million Pound per week towards the NHS have been factually correct.

Then you are in for a long wait. I have already told you that that was never the claim made by the leave campaign - it was a remain campaign/media misrepresentation. It is not possible to explain something that has never existed.


That is interesting. I guess we have a miracle on our hand, because apparently this bus just materialized out of nowhere...

Image

Are you saying this had some smallprint we can´t see in the picture saying "350 million are gross payment, net payment are significantly lower, that money also has no connection whatsoever with the NHS."

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 6:33 am

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

Which agrees with what I am saying.


Not really, but the EU has been founded almost 25years ago, and Britain agreed with that. Bit too late to come up with an argument like that, don't you think.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 6:34 am

tommy1808 wrote:
That is interesting. I guess we have a miracle on our hand, because apparently this bus just materialized out of nowhere...

What is said on the bus is correct - we do send the EU ~£350m a week.

Yes, they have rounded the number up a little. Yes, we get some of it back. But the claim itself is NOT wrong. This is just normal political campaigning by selective presentation of facts - something that almost everyone in the UK understands. Nowhere on that bus does it say we could spend the whole £350m on the NHS.

The leave campaign has not, in any official advertising, broadcasts or literature that I have seen, ever claimed that if we left the EU, we could spend an extra £350m per week on the NHS. It is not the leave campaign's fault that what they have said is seemingly only misunderstood by people on the losing side of the argument.
 
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 6:42 am

speedbored wrote:
This is just normal political campaigning by selective presentation of facts - something that almost everyone in the UK understands. Nowhere on that bus does it say we could spend the whole £350m on the NHS.

The leave campaign has not, in any official advertising, broadcasts or literature that I have seen, ever claimed that if we left the EU, we could spend an extra £350m per week on the NHS. It is not the leave campaign's fault that what they have said is seemingly only misunderstood by people on the losing side of the argument.


No, they just made advertisement implying you can. Saying "We send 350 Million to the EU every weeks" makes no sense at all in any other context then creating the impression you do pay 350 million to the EU."LEts fund the NHS instead" makes no sense in any other way but sending that money to the NHS.

If the leave campaign didn´t expect the readers to read it that way, there is no point having that bus. And we all know that is EXACTLY how it was understood, since Ms May had to address exactly that, deliberately created, "misunderstanding", even still this year, so the smart electorate apparently hasn´t gotten the message even now.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/t ... d-10124021

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 7:02 am

speedbored wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
That is interesting. I guess we have a miracle on our hand, because apparently this bus just materialized out of nowhere...

What is said on the bus is correct - we do send the EU ~£350m a week.

Yes, they have rounded the number up a little. Yes, we get some of it back. But the claim itself is NOT wrong. This is just normal political campaigning by selective presentation of facts - something that almost everyone in the UK understands. Nowhere on that bus does it say we could spend the whole £350m on the NHS.

The leave campaign has not, in any official advertising, broadcasts or literature that I have seen, ever claimed that if we left the EU, we could spend an extra £350m per week on the NHS. It is not the leave campaign's fault that what they have said is seemingly only misunderstood by people on the losing side of the argument.


They implied it even the leave campaign, after the referendum, said so themselves, no need to deny it.
Boris Johnson: 2:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoHRCAdsF8I
Nigal Farage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ktojE6WQA

In reality, the leave campaign didn't have a clue what could happen and most probably will happen and most importantly what consequences it would have, also on the financial side. Like I said before, even if it cost only 1% economic growth, it will cost the British economy 22b a year. Financially speaking it is a terrible mistake and they should never have advertised it like that, that is misleading at best.

So it is 192m a week and that is before the benefits, 6b is being spent in the UK, 1b in foreign aid which the UK would have spent anyway. So that leaves 3b net contribution or 58m a week. Or almost 1/5 what is claimed. And before you have a go at these numbers, May said that all EU subsidies will continue after the Brexit. So there you have it, 3b (or about 50 a year per person, the Dutch pay almost 4 times as much) a year you could spend freely and for that privilege, you have to give up the access to the common marked.
And yes, you can implement your own laws, will it be less than from the EU? Don't think so, they can substitute laws with their own, if the want to have access to the common marked -which you seems to advocate-, then they have to oblige by the same rules, so no gain there. So that leaves the only real benefit the borders and that is questionable at best.

It was an emotional decision any way you look at it. That is fine, but don't rationalize it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 7:03 am

tommy1808 wrote:
speedbored wrote:
This is just normal political campaigning by selective presentation of facts - something that almost everyone in the UK understands. Nowhere on that bus does it say we could spend the whole £350m on the NHS.

The leave campaign has not, in any official advertising, broadcasts or literature that I have seen, ever claimed that if we left the EU, we could spend an extra £350m per week on the NHS. It is not the leave campaign's fault that what they have said is seemingly only misunderstood by people on the losing side of the argument.


No, they just made advertisement implying you can. Saying "We send 350 Million to the EU every weeks" makes no sense at all in any other context then creating the impression you do pay 350 million to the EU."LEts fund the NHS instead" makes no sense in any other way but sending that money to the NHS.

If the leave campaign didn´t expect the readers to read it that way, there is no point having that bus. And we all know that is EXACTLY how it was understood, since Ms May had to address exactly that, deliberately created, "misunderstanding", even still this year, so the smart electorate apparently hasn´t gotten the message even now.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/t ... d-10124021

best regards
Thomas



But the fine print was on the spare wheel !!!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 7:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was an organisation of 6 European countries set up after World War II to regulate their industrial production under a centralised authority. It was formally established in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris, signed by Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. The ECSC was the first international organisation to be based on the principles of supranationalism,[2] and started the process of formal integration which ultimately led to the European Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... _Community

The EU is a direct descendent of the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), it was the goal in order never to have such a devastating war again. When the UK joined on 1 January 1973 it was already 22years old. So what do you mean?


Not only that. The UK set up a competing structure (the EFTA) which was (and is) exclusively about Free Trade as their name implies.... precisely because they already saw the EEC as having a scope much more ambitious to just trade.

Free movement of people, freedom of establishment, a notion of European citizenship etc. was already in the treaty of Rome, which predates British membership by a couple decades.

So why did the UK join the same EEC they had tried to sink just a few years before? (by setting up and actively recruiting members on a competing structure). That's the big question. De Gaulle was right in veto-ing the UK every chance he got.
 
Pihero
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 8:11 am

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

Which agrees with what I am saying.

No. It certainly does not :
The ECSC was the origin of everything and the model of all community treaties.It had a parliament and a court of Justice... already...

When in 1957 the treaty on the European Community appeared, it was drawnon the ECSC wuth a few modifications, mainly about financing, the high court of justice and the number of deputies( they will be the MEPs)
Then the merging treaties were drawn, which initiated the first draw of the European Economic Community but the founding countries wanted to keep the ECSC texts, in case of dissension on the meaning of the legal dispositions.
IIRC, these texts were used a few times.
By design, the ECSC was supposed to elapse after 50 years, at which time some reinforced association would be in place... The ECSC was suppressed exactly then in 2002.

Now, all your arguments against the ECSC, the EU which you deny as you said "we only joined the European Community... guess what : the preambule, IIRC, of the Rome Treaty says, very specifically : The signatories agreed to:lay the foundations of an ‘ever closer union’ among the peoples of Europe ...Yep ! YOU SIGNED IT !
As ever, you're being disingenuous... again

JJJ wrote : "So why did the UK join the same EEC they had tried to sink just a few years before?

That free trade zone failed. that's the main reason.
What they did was to recreate the EFTA in the EEC, then the EU. As a matter of fact, increasing the number of countries in the EU was easier than in the EEC.

That's how the sabotage could take place., and when they thought it less efficient than a go at being alone , brexit happened.
Me, I do not believe a single second that brexit was an accident. It is one of the most cynical political maneuvers Europe has seen for a long while.
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 8:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
They implied it even the leave campaign, after the referendum, said so themselves, no need to deny it.

I'm not denying it but there is a HUGE difference between implying something and stating it as fact.

I am simply rebuffing the claim perpetuated by the remainers and the EU that the leave campaign said "we will be able to spend £350m more on the NHS if we leave", which is not just an implication, it is a downright lie.

Dutchy wrote:
In reality, the leave campaign didn't have a clue what could happen and most probably will happen and most importantly what consequences it would have, also on the financial side. Like I said before, even if it cost only 1% economic growth, it will cost the British economy 22b a year. Financially speaking it is a terrible mistake and they should never have advertised it like that, that is misleading at best.

In reality, you will find that the majority of the UK electorate DO NOT CARE about the financial consequences. As I have said many many times, money was not the primary driver for the leave vote. The fact that the EU just does not want to understand this really does not bode well for the future survival of the EU.

Don't any of you ever wonder why, even now that the likely financial consequences are going to be even more severe (given the ridiculous divorce bill that the EU is likely to want), so many people who voted leave in the referendum are now coming to support a hard Brexit?

Dutchy wrote:
It was an emotional decision any way you look at it.

Yes, because anyone who voted leave is far too stupid to make a rational decision. Continuing to insult the intelligence of the other side achieves nothing other than to severely undermine your own arguments.
 
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 8:54 am

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It was an emotional decision any way you look at it.

Yes, because anyone who voted leave is far too stupid to make a rational decision. Continuing to insult the intelligence of the other side achieves nothing other than to severely undermine your own arguments.


Gee, don't get worked up here. What are the real ration arguments? Educate me.......

What hopes Britain to get out of this?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 8:54 am

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They implied it even the leave campaign, after the referendum, said so themselves, no need to deny it.

I'm not denying it but there is a HUGE difference between implying something and stating it as fact.



bold statement after Dutchy posted videos....

If Spicer ever gets fired, i got a job you may want to apply for....

best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Mon May 08, 2017 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 9:07 am

Dutchy wrote:
speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It was an emotional decision any way you look at it.

Yes, because anyone who voted leave is far too stupid to make a rational decision. Continuing to insult the intelligence of the other side achieves nothing other than to severely undermine your own arguments.


Gee, don't get worked up here. What are the real ration arguments? Educate me.......

What hopes Britain to get out of this?


The illusion of control and keeping foreigners out of sight.

Bendy cucumbers, blue passports, Polish plumbers..... the British public seems easier than average to work up. Outrage buttons within easy reach.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:09 am

Pihero wrote:
speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

Which agrees with what I am saying.

No. It certainly does not :

Yes it most certainly does. The original claim that I rebuffed was that the current EU is a direct descendant of the ECSC. I said it was not.

The Wiki article cited to prove me wrong clearly shows that:
The current EU is descended from the EEC via the EC.
The EEC was created as a separate entity and does not descend from the ECSC.
The ECSC was merged into the EEC, not the other way around.

The Wiki article, therefore, does not show the current EU descending from the ECSC; it shows the current EU descending from the EEC.

Pihero wrote:
the preambule, IIRC, of the Rome Treaty says, very specifically : The signatories agreed to:lay the foundations of an ‘ever closer union’ among the peoples of Europe ...Yep ! YOU SIGNED IT !

But, as with just about everything in every EU treaty, it is a vague statement that can be interpreted to suit everyone's requirements. It doesn't clarify whether that closer union is political, economic, or anything else. Some countries signed up for "ever closer economic union". Some countries signed up for "ever closer political union". Some countries may well have thought they were signing up for some other sort of union. Hence the mess the EU is in.

This is one of the biggest problems with the EU - in order to get agreement for just about any treaty or law to pass, it always has to be vague enough to suit multiple different (and often contradictory) interpretations.

Pihero wrote:
As ever, you're being disingenuous... again

Oh there is a lot of disingenuity in this thread. It is not coming from me.

I totally understand the hostility being directed at the UK at the moment by many people in the EU, and why they are all getting so emotional about it - after all, the UK leaving is quite likely to lead to the eventual breakup of their beloved EU (at least in its current form). I also am sufficiently well travelled to know that the hostility being directed at the UK on here is not indicative of feelings towards the UK among the general EU population, who are, in my experience, still mostly friendly and welcoming.

I live in hope that sanity will be injected, and a fair agreement will be reached, otherwise we will all suffer (and I personally believe that some EU countries will suffer far more badly than the UK). If Junckers stays in charge then I suspect this might be a forlorn hope.

It's been a fun "chat" but we are just going round in circles now so .... I'm out.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:19 am

speedbored wrote:
I totally understand the hostility being directed at the UK at the moment by many people in the EU, and why they are all getting so emotional about it - after all, the UK leaving is quite likely to lead to the eventual breakup of their beloved EU (at least in its current form).


In your wet dreams maybe.
What you call hostility is just people calling for a reality check.

It is not because you try to rewrite history about EU construction that we can trust your imaginary world.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:22 am

speedbored wrote:
This is one of the biggest problems with the EU - in order to get agreement for just about any treaty or law to pass, it always has to be vague enough to suit multiple different (and often contradictory) interpretations.


What's vague about this? This was signed in 1957:

Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Community.
Such freedom of movement shall entail the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment.
It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:
(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;
(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;
(c) to stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action;
(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in implementing regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.
The provisions of this article shall not apply to employment in the public service.


Again, read up a bit of history on why the UK did not join the original 6 countries. Nothing has changed since then.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6163
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:36 am

JJJ wrote:
Again, read up a bit of history on why the UK did not join the original 6 countries. Nothing has changed since then.


I guess the UK just needed the EU to prevent going bankrupt in the 70s, and they leave as soon as they can...

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:39 am

But we've been a net contributor for nearly the entire time bar one year in the 1970s IIRC.

If we were going bankrupt, shouldn't we have been a net receiver?
 
JJJ
Posts: 2491
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:43 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
But we've been a net contributor for nearly the entire time bar one year in the 1970s IIRC.

If we were going bankrupt, shouldn't we have been a net receiver?


If you pay to get into a common market which in turn boosts your chances of doing business are you paying or receiving?
 
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speedbored
Posts: 1958
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:49 am

JJJ wrote:
What's vague about this? This was signed in 1957:

Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Community.
Such freedom of movement shall entail the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment.
It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:
(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;
(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;
(c) to stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action;
(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in implementing regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.
The provisions of this article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

OK, I'll bite with one final reply:
Again, you post something that just proves my point.

A whole list of rules (I agree they are not particularly vague, though there is a major flaw in (a) - you don't actually have to enter employment), along with the "make it all vague again" get-out clause of "subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy". i.e. "here are some rules" but feel free to pick and choose which ones you think should apply to you as a matter of "public policy". Vagueness and loopholes everywhere.

Have fun.
 
Olddog
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 9:49 am

The UK was contributing following the SAME rules than other countries. The tatcher rebate was the anomaly. Anyway that point is moot as you are leaving and I can't see the UK coming back before at least 30 years so farewell.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2491
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 2:56 pm

speedbored wrote:
JJJ wrote:
What's vague about this? This was signed in 1957:

Freedom of movement for workers shall be secured within the Community.
Such freedom of movement shall entail the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality between workers of the Member States as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment.
It shall entail the right, subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health:
(a) to accept offers of employment actually made;
(b) to move freely within the territory of Member States for this purpose;
(c) to stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action;
(d) to remain in the territory of a Member State after having been employed in that State, subject to conditions which shall be embodied in implementing regulations to be drawn up by the Commission.
The provisions of this article shall not apply to employment in the public service.

OK, I'll bite with one final reply:
Again, you post something that just proves my point.

A whole list of rules (I agree they are not particularly vague, though there is a major flaw in (a) - you don't actually have to enter employment), along with the "make it all vague again" get-out clause of "subject to limitations justified on grounds of public policy". i.e. "here are some rules" but feel free to pick and choose which ones you think should apply to you as a matter of "public policy". Vagueness and loopholes everywhere.

Have fun.


Excuse me? "These are the rules unless notified otherwise" is standard legalese for just about everything. And of course there's the tons of accompanying documents at the time where the big questions were asked. The long-term plan was clearly laid up by the likes of Schuman, Monnet, Adenauer, etc. in writing

The British political class cannot claim they didn't know where the ship was going. Their early actions at the start of the European integration project prove they knew all along, and reacted accordingly.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 5309
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 3:47 pm

It does not matter what the political class wanted, as the voter has spoken and the voter chose freedom. It does not matter what effects the Brexit will have, as most Brits are willing to pay every price and bear every burden to be free and sovereign again. I think many people in Europe feel the same way.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2491
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 3:57 pm

seahawk wrote:
It does not matter what the political class wanted


Indeed it doesn't. I'm just talking about statements like these:

All of those exemptions, etc. were to allow us to keep just a little bit closer to what it was that we actually signed up for when we joined - long before the "design" or "far reaching political project" that you talk about even existed.


According to some the UK was hoodwinked into join an evil empire masquerading as a harmless free trade area.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 4:27 pm

seahawk wrote:
It does not matter what the political class wanted, as the voter has spoken and the voter chose freedom. It does not matter what effects the Brexit will have, as most Brits are willing to pay every price and bear every burden to be free and sovereign again. I think many people in Europe feel the same way.


Chose freedom from what? Brussels? So as a Brit you are ruled by London, is that worse or better than Brussels? I find this such a bogus argument. Nobody is free to do whatever it likes. Like I said before if the directive isn't democratically adopted in Brussels than it will be about the same legislation in London. What have you gained as an individual? Are you more sovereign?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LAH1
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 4:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It does not matter what the political class wanted, as the voter has spoken and the voter chose freedom. It does not matter what effects the Brexit will have, as most Brits are willing to pay every price and bear every burden to be free and sovereign again. I think many people in Europe feel the same way.


Chose freedom from what? Brussels? So as a Brit you are ruled by London, is that worse or better than Brussels? I find this such a bogus argument. Nobody is free to do whatever it likes. Like I said before if the directive isn't democratically adopted in Brussels than it will be about the same legislation in London. What have you gained as an individual? Are you more sovereign?


I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective. Whatever the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whatever the outcome for the EU or the UK it's how the voters perceive it. Sovereignty obviously means something different over here and probably more than it does to a European who has lived with borders on some/many and different countries.

You may think it's worse and make statements about "little Englanders" et al - which don't really do anything for your arguments - but there it is. Some many millions do see it that way. They may well be wrong but we'll just have to wait and see. Please remember that just because you don't agree doesn't make you right and us wrong or vice versa. At the moment all is an opinion, the facts will make themselves known in time.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 5309
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 5:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It does not matter what the political class wanted, as the voter has spoken and the voter chose freedom. It does not matter what effects the Brexit will have, as most Brits are willing to pay every price and bear every burden to be free and sovereign again. I think many people in Europe feel the same way.


Chose freedom from what? Brussels? So as a Brit you are ruled by London, is that worse or better than Brussels? I find this such a bogus argument. Nobody is free to do whatever it likes. Like I said before if the directive isn't democratically adopted in Brussels than it will be about the same legislation in London. What have you gained as an individual? Are you more sovereign?


The motivation for the Brexit will surely be a future focal point for social economic research and it will be interesting to see how it will work out in the long run. In the end I think we might have seen the British version of "Weltschmerz" combined with a longing to go back to the secure and simple years of the past like the 1960ies and 70ies.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 3194
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 5:10 pm

LAH1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It does not matter what the political class wanted, as the voter has spoken and the voter chose freedom. It does not matter what effects the Brexit will have, as most Brits are willing to pay every price and bear every burden to be free and sovereign again. I think many people in Europe feel the same way.


Chose freedom from what? Brussels? So as a Brit you are ruled by London, is that worse or better than Brussels? I find this such a bogus argument. Nobody is free to do whatever it likes. Like I said before if the directive isn't democratically adopted in Brussels than it will be about the same legislation in London. What have you gained as an individual? Are you more sovereign?


I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective. Whatever the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whatever the outcome for the EU or the UK it's how the voters perceive it. Sovereignty obviously means something different over here and probably more than it does to a European who has lived with borders on some/many and different countries.

You may think it's worse and make statements about "little Englanders" et al - which don't really do anything for your arguments - but there it is. Some many millions do see it that way. They may well be wrong but we'll just have to wait and see. Please remember that just because you don't agree doesn't make you right and us wrong or vice versa. At the moment all is an opinion, the facts will make themselves known in time.


I, indeed, don't get it. I hope some from Britain whom voted for leave could explain this to me. A feeling of being sovereign British again could be a reason, but the follow-up question is, what does that mean? I am honestly interested in the answer because I don't get it.
Here in the Netherlands, we have Wilders and his followers. I engaged quite a lot into conversations with PVV-voters, because I want to understand what is driving them to reach such a different conclusion than me. Many of them were seeing the same problems as I did, but either wanted to give a signal, were disillusioned etc. Not many were true racist or really wanted to close the borders and kick out the Moroccans and Turks.

So we created a site to do the same in Britain for the elections. Just to move outside your political bubble and engage into a conversation with someone whom doesn't vote like you. Much better to do that, than this reaction on reaction thing on a forum, or your follow your own bubble with the facebook feed or twitter feed. Join us at https://myvotegoes2.com and share it with your British friends ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LAH1
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Chose freedom from what? Brussels? So as a Brit you are ruled by London, is that worse or better than Brussels? I find this such a bogus argument. Nobody is free to do whatever it likes. Like I said before if the directive isn't democratically adopted in Brussels than it will be about the same legislation in London. What have you gained as an individual? Are you more sovereign?


I think you only see it as a bogus argument because you don't see it from a UK perspective. Whatever the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whatever the outcome for the EU or the UK it's how the voters perceive it. Sovereignty obviously means something different over here and probably more than it does to a European who has lived with borders on some/many and different countries.

You may think it's worse and make statements about "little Englanders" et al - which don't really do anything for your arguments - but there it is. Some many millions do see it that way. They may well be wrong but we'll just have to wait and see. Please remember that just because you don't agree doesn't make you right and us wrong or vice versa. At the moment all is an opinion, the facts will make themselves known in time.


I, indeed, don't get it. I hope some from Britain whom voted for leave could explain this to me. A feeling of being sovereign British again could be a reason, but the follow-up question is, what does that mean? I am honestly interested in the answer because I don't get it.
Here in the Netherlands, we have Wilders and his followers. I engaged quite a lot into conversations with PVV-voters, because I want to understand what is driving them to reach such a different conclusion than me. Many of them were seeing the same problems as I did, but either wanted to give a signal, were disillusioned etc. Not many were true racist or really wanted to close the borders and kick out the Moroccans and Turks.

So we created a site to do the same in Britain for the elections. Just to move outside your political bubble and engage into a conversation with someone whom doesn't vote like you. Much better to do that, than this reaction on reaction thing on a forum, or your follow your own bubble with the facebook feed or twitter feed. Join us at https://myvotegoes2.com and share it with your British friends ;-)


I will. Thanks for the link.
As some have said previously, there was also a feeling of Londoncentric UK doing well whilst many living in the rest of the country felt left out. Voting was also aimed at the Banking system which many thought had let them down whilst profiteering. One theory is that it was a kick in the goolies for those who seemed to have forgotten that there was life outside of the city.

It might be that the vote actually kicks the voters back but that is in the future. It's a very difficult concept to put into words. Having your own destiny perhaps, not relying on being told what to do. Yes, I know. It doesn't all make sense when you spell it out. It's what feelings are all about though, things you can't easily put into words. The same sort of argument goes with Royalty. Everyone get emotional and crying when there's a wedding or visit or death but generally gets on with their lives without thinking about them for the rest of the time. But, ask nearly anyone (nearly anyone!) and they will say they love the Royal Family. Go deeper and it becomes very difficult to give an answer that is either cogent or rational. It just is what it is.
I am personally torn by Brexit as is my family. I have one son who does work with our PM as well as in Brussels and Madrid and here both in high value engineering and security. I can see both sides of the coin.
As I said, not an easy answer and I don't think I have explained at all well.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 6:01 pm

JJJ wrote :
"Excuse me? "These are the rules unless notified otherwise" is standard legalese for just about everything. And of course there's the tons of accompanying documents at the time where the big questions were asked. The long-term plan was clearly laid up by the likes of Schuman, Monnet, Adenauer, etc. in writing
The British political class cannot claim they didn't know where the ship was going. Their early actions at the start of the European integration project prove they knew all along, and reacted accordingly."


You're quite right and what is even more tragic with the sort of denial we're seeing on this forum is that these texts will be at the heart of the Brexit negotiations.
And just imagine the ECJ being the arbiter of the dispute, and that is what si going to happen, based on the text(s) of the contract that the UK has adopted, signed and ratified.
And they think that they have the upper hand ...
sad
Contrail designer
 
Olddog
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 6:06 pm

LAH1 wrote:
I will. Thanks for the link.
As some have said previously, there was also a feeling of Londoncentric UK doing well whilst many living in the rest of the country felt left out. Voting was also aimed at the Banking system which many thought had let them down whilst profiteering. One theory is that it was a kick in the goolies for those who seemed to have forgotten that there was life outside of the city.

It might be that the vote actually kicks the voters back but that is in the future. It's a very difficult concept to put into words. Having your own destiny perhaps, not relying on being told what to do. Yes, I know. It doesn't all make sense when you spell it out. It's what feelings are all about though, things you can't easily put into words. The same sort of argument goes with Royalty. Everyone get emotional and crying when there's a wedding or visit or death but generally gets on with their lives without thinking about them for the rest of the time. But, ask nearly anyone (nearly anyone!) and they will say they love the Royal Family. Go deeper and it becomes very difficult to give an answer that is either cogent or rational. It just is what it is.
I am personally torn by Brexit as is my family. I have one son who does work with our PM as well as in Brussels and Madrid and here both in high value engineering and security. I can see both sides of the coin.
As I said, not an easy answer and I don't think I have explained at all well.


But most of the problem you seem to describe is due to the fact that rich become richer and the poor.... Don't you think that is mainly due to your tax code and the way the UK build its internal budget ?
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon May 08, 2017 6:23 pm

Olddog wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
I will. Thanks for the link.
As some have said previously, there was also a feeling of Londoncentric UK doing well whilst many living in the rest of the country felt left out. Voting was also aimed at the Banking system which many thought had let them down whilst profiteering. One theory is that it was a kick in the goolies for those who seemed to have forgotten that there was life outside of the city.

It might be that the vote actually kicks the voters back but that is in the future. It's a very difficult concept to put into words. Having your own destiny perhaps, not relying on being told what to do. Yes, I know. It doesn't all make sense when you spell it out. It's what feelings are all about though, things you can't easily put into words. The same sort of argument goes with Royalty. Everyone get emotional and crying when there's a wedding or visit or death but generally gets on with their lives without thinking about them for the rest of the time. But, ask nearly anyone (nearly anyone!) and they will say they love the Royal Family. Go deeper and it becomes very difficult to give an answer that is either cogent or rational. It just is what it is.
I am personally torn by Brexit as is my family. I have one son who does work with our PM as well as in Brussels and Madrid and here both in high value engineering and security. I can see both sides of the coin.
As I said, not an easy answer and I don't think I have explained at all well.


But most of the problem you seem to describe is due to the fact that rich become richer and the poor.... Don't you think that is mainly due to your tax code and the way the UK build its internal budget ?


It is, the EU has nothing to do with social policies or taxation as such. The same with the banks, although I can imagine that. But I think the problem you describe LAH1, is a common one in Europe. You saw it in The Netherlands, in France, with the Brexit, countryside vs city. Countryside more populist extreme than the cities, whom are more occupied with the young and are generally more educated. So that is the real tragedy here I guess. That gap needs to be closed somehow, as does the gap between the rich and the poor, which is also widening. The EU must work for everyone, not just the rich. So I can see that as a legitimate claim, but that isn't perse the doing of the EU.

Oh, it might not surprise you a bit, LAH1, I am against the Royals as well. ;-) Or this guy can be Farao der Nederlanders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MWeO8O0Hrw (the same team that created The Netherlands second)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sf260
Posts: 249
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 6:29 pm

speedbored wrote:
In reality, you will find that the majority of the UK electorate DO NOT CARE about the financial consequences. As I have said many many times, money was not the primary driver for the leave vote.

Of course they do care. If the pound devaluates 20% and the UK GDP decreases with 10%, the purchasing power will will drop dramatically for the average UK household. Many people will then see Brexit as a mistake.

speedbored wrote:
I think you'll find that most of us have a very good grasp of those - that is why we voted to leave.

I guess you mean "we" as in "England". Scotland and Northern Ireland overwhelmingly voted to remain. Do you really think it is fair to them to make this a hard Brexit and let them suffer (economically) for what mainly the English want?
 
LTenEleven
Posts: 262
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 6:58 pm

Of course they do care. If the pound devaluates 20% and the UK GDP decreases with 10%, the purchasing power will will drop dramatically for the average UK household. Many people will then see Brexit as a mistake.


The DM and other newspapers have already printed plenty of articles about how much more expensive holidays are getting. Think your average reader will make a link with Brexit?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position7

Mon May 08, 2017 7:07 pm

LTenEleven wrote:
Of course they do care. If the pound devaluates 20% and the UK GDP decreases with 10%, the purchasing power will will drop dramatically for the average UK household. Many people will then see Brexit as a mistake.


The DM and other newspapers have already printed plenty of articles about how much more expensive holidays are getting. Think your average reader will make a link with Brexit?


Don't know, but they should.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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